5/20/26 - 2147: Hearing God Beyond Sunday

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: Hearing the voice of God - it's something we all want to experience, but most of us are afraid of what he might say when we hear him. But really, do you wanna know what God is thinking? His answers to your question? Does our Heavenly Father really wanna interact with us freely in our thoughts and drive our work?

Peter Lawry is a marketplace prophetic intercessor that focuses on helping business owners hear the voice of God so that they're actively listening to the real CEO of the business. But Peter also works in networking groups. Peter attends events, and often goes around the room and speaks what he's hearing God say about the people in the room. Peter and his wife, Tini, are in the studio with us today all the way from New Zealand. Now, that isn't a town in Pennsylvania. (chuckling) It's a huge island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

Tini is an international leader within the Lions Club International, and is now working on equipping the next generation of Lions leaders age 15 to 30. Both Peter and Tini are seeing God do amazing things around the world from Bangladesh to Marionville, Missouri. They saw it back home. They've experienced it in Orlando at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce event, and now seeing it in action right here in Marionville, Missouri.

Peter and Tini Lawry, welcome to iWork4Him.

Tini Lawry: Thanks.

Peter Lawry: Thank you. Lovely to be here.

Jim: Yeah. You say that now. I hope you still say that at the end. (laughter) that's the goal- ... is that you'll still be happy that you are visiting after we're done. All right, we just finished an amazing time together at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce event in Orlando, where people gathered to celebrate all that God's doing in the marketplace. Tini, what was your biggest takeaway?

Tini Lawry: My biggest takeaway was that God is not only a God for Sundays and like that. I saw there that God wants to be in every aspect of our life. So he wants to be in, in whatever we are, not just the Sunday, and also, and that includes our businesses. So he wants to be there.

Jim: Now, was that a new idea for you? Y- you, I know Peter is talking with marketplace people all the time in New Zealand. But a lot of times you're not accompanying him in those things. Here in Orla- in Orlando, we were there together, you were in the room with 700 other people. And you saw the broadness of their experience. Lots of different jobs, lots of different occupations. Was it encouraging to you to see how many of them were pursuing God in their work?

Tini Lawry: Yes, definitely. And I thought it was an eagerness to find out that they wanted to have healing for themselves so they would be able to yeah, to ascertain what their business needed. Yeah. I really found that amazing.

Martha: So Peter, for you, what was your biggest takeaway from the U.S. Christian Chamber event that we were at together?

Peter Lawry: I suppose in some respects it's the same thing, because it's very - this is something very dear to my heart, is the fact that there is no Sunday and weekday divide as far as God is concerned. What we're called to pray is, "Lord, your kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven," not just on Sundays.

It is right in the marketplace just where Jesus taught. So it was wonderful to hear that kind of message being reiterated and pressed home and this real sense of, yes, God is here. God wants to be doing with you in your business what you think He wants to do with you on a Sunday. Yeah. It was cool.

Martha: So the theme of the event was "Yes&". And so that was a lot of what was being spoken, but as you guys were walking around, praying, and discussing with other people, did you see a common theme arise from what they were experiencing?

Peter Lawry: I think there was a tremendous sense of togetherness. As a business conference, it was unusual, because every session started with worship, every, the hosts, obviously the emcees were amazing. (laughter) They were absolutely incredible.

Jim: That was unsolicited. They were really good. I'll give you that- I'll give you that 20 right after the show.

Peter Lawry: Sounds good. So you walk into an atmosphere which- is an atmosphere of worship brought into the workplace. And I think, talking around the room, people were, for me it was just there was a sense of really feeling like they could be honestly themselves- in this space in a way that perhaps they have not really felt before or haven't thought they had the permission to be like in their business. It was, there was just an honesty and transparency around the room, which I thought was lovely.

Jim: Tini, you operated in stealth mode when you were at the US Christian Chamber, 'cause you weren't a keynote speaker, but you're married to one of them, which I think gave you an opportunity to hear things behind the scenes, to experience things in the hallways, in the expo hall. You got to hear things that we didn't hear. What was one thing that you saw, maybe a common theme or comments that people made about what they were experiencing?

Tini Lawry: I think they were all eager to hear what God had in store for them, if they could get guidance or direction for their businesses. And I think that theme came through the days that and that probably came through that bit that they wanted to find healing for themselves first. So there would be, there were no blockages in the way to actually hear what God had in store for them. They knew that God was involved or what, but I think they really wanted to grab it and see it develop.

Martha: I think I hear - I feel the word expectant as something that was really powerful there. People, anticipation and expecting God to really give them direction. All of our listeners have heard us advertising and talking about this event for so long, and this is just a little snippet of our unpacking it, and hopefully you will be looking forward to the next time that we have this event happening.

Jim: In 2028. That's right.

Martha: That's right. Okay, so we're talking about our US Christian Chamber of Commerce. Is there a New Zealand Christian Chamber of Commerce?

Peter Lawry: No. In short, there isn't. There is an ICCC, an International- ... Christian Chamber of Commerce. But what's interesting is that I don't believe that I've ever met anybody who's part of it. They've never mentioned it, and it doesn't seem to have an incredibly strong profile. And so that's something which, you know, having experienced what's going on here, obviously I go back there, we go back there with a sense that yeah, there's something here that's missing in New Zealand.

Jim: So when marketplace believers gather in New Zealand, which I know New Zealand's a thousand miles from north to south, two different islands and all these other small little islands. It's a great place. It's Middle Earth, as all you Lord of the Rings fans call it. But when- first of all, do marketplace believers gather together?

Peter Lawry: Yes.

Jim: So when they gather together, who organizes it?

Peter Lawry: So if you imagine that we can get two and a half New Zealands within the state of Texas y- you get a kind of an idea of size. So whereas in America you have a number of organizations within the faith at work movement, all of which kind of serve an area or a particular sector of the market.

In New Zealand, we are one country and we have 5.3 million people. So that's like what we have in Missouri. We have 5 million people in Missouri. Okay. Wow. So what generally happens is that the churches that have business people in their churches will actually put on their own events. But there will also be some conferences there that are specifically sponsored to, to go beyond church.

And even, if there is something going on in a particular church, then the doors are always open for others to, to come. So it tends to be done on that base.

Jim: But so churches hold marketplace events?

Peter Lawry: Churches hold places for their business people, I guess would be the better way to put it.

Jim: Yeah. That's cool. Is everybody listening out there? That's a great idea. We should do that here in the United States of America. Churches, we'd love to get you involved in the faith and work movement, and we know there are some churches out there, but everybody listening that's part of a church, let your pastors know, "Hey, I'm out here. I'm running a business. I'm working in a business." "We would love to be encouraged on a regular basis inside the four walls of our church with the people that we know and love." What a great idea.

Martha, it is so much fun to hear how others are gathering and getting encouragement from around the globe, and iWork4Him is designed to be the mouthpiece for what God is doing in and through believers everywhere. And everybody listening, you are part of this movement, and your monthly gift keeps the movement going. How about a $5 a month commitment to iWork4Him? Please go to iwork4him.com/donate and become part of our team, encouraging workplace believers around the globe.

Martha: So Tini, let's talk to you for just a minute. Okay, we're gonna switch gears a little bit. We've been talking about an event we were at together, but you specifically are working as what we call a discipler or a mentor of the next generation of leaders through the Lions Club. So what are you seeing that's encouraging in that generation?

Tini Lawry: Ooh, I love that. That is really what excites me because it is not that many years ago that teenagers when you were interacting with them you got a grunt or something. (chuckles) sorry. So it was four years ago so the... I work with high school teenagers in a state high school.

So we're doing projects as the Lions do and community work. So these kids or these teenagers would see the, what was wrong in the community, what was wrong with the environment and stuff like that. And at that stage, four years ago, they would point the finger at the parents should fix it or the school should fix it.

It was the society's fault and they should fix it. So two years ago I saw a change because the parents got involved. They probably remembered the time that they were helping out in the community. So they were helping in the community projects. They were in the fundraising for the, for the community.

They were helping with the environment and stuff like that. And it was really great to see. And now, so last year there was a change in the teenagers. They still saw what was wrong with society and wrong with the community and wrong in the environment, what had gone wrong, but they are now convinced they have to do it.

They said "we have to, we have got the enthusiasm, we've got the means, we can help them." And okay, there's people like me in the leadership and their parents, they would guide them what is available, and they do. And honestly it is yeah, y- you touched on something there amazing. And there is this kindness, helpfulness and consideration. I'll get messages which says, "Oh, Tini how was your day?" And then they start with the message for, "Have a great weekend." And I think, "Wow, that's a long way from (grunt sound) .

Martha: I wanna l- land on that just for a minute. Is there anything that you can contribute to that switch, why you think that happened? Or you think it's because you showed them that they were able to do it?

Tini Lawry: Maybe my way of how I am. I'm positive. I like to see the best in people. I treat everybo-body equally. I'm not judgemental. And because I believe in them, then I said you can do that. You've got this gift," or, "You can do that." So I think that sort of thing rubs off- Yeah ... and it becomes attractive.

Jim: Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. And you're pouring into the next generation, and I know the Lions Club is not specifically a kingdom-focused organization, but they're doing some kingdom work. They really are. They're an old organization. I'm involved in a Lions Club right here in Marionville. It's 87 years old. What's great is you're seeing this next generation, and they're asking questions, too, aren't they, Tini? They wanna know. They want stuff to have meaning and purpose, don't they?

Tini Lawry: That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think it's this being kind and these are the characteristics of Jesus really, and that's the only thing I can actually portray because I'm not allowed in the state school to preach the gospel or anything like that. But by showing what you are, they can come to you and say Tini, where have you got that strength from?" Or, "Where have you got that solution from?" Or... So yes, there are openings.

Jim: That's so good. Nice. So Peter, you're experiencing God reaching out into, to marketplace believers. That's where God's got you focused. And you're, and God's given you this assignment to desperately trying to speak over them and into them. Why is this so needed for marketplace believers? I think I know the answer, but why do you think it's so needed?

Peter Lawry: For me, it was a revelation for me really when a, an 82-year-old intercessor actually challenged me to make God the CEO of my business, and that I become merely His employee, and that just changed completely the way that I saw the marketplace, the way that I saw business, and the way that I saw Christian businesses being able to interact in the marketplace.

Because up until that point, I think I'd seen them more as commercial businesses with a bit of a skin of Christianity around them, values, morals, principles, et cetera, et cetera. And suddenly I began to realize, Oh my goodness, if He honestly wants to take the lead in this business, then that just changes the whole game plan, because from that point on, not only can we trust that he actually knows what to do in a business and knows a lot better than we know how to run a business, which we see of course with the fishermen throwing their nets over the side of the boat with Jesus' command and up come the biggest catch they've ever had.

But we also, it's just a, it's a situation in which Jesus himself was so utterly comfortable. He went to the synagogues. He occasionally went to the temples, but he did virtually all of his ministry outside in the place where people were. And so for me, bringing the Word of God into, bringing the person of Jesus into the business is a vital aspect of not just a Christian business, let's put it that way, but let's give it a new word and call it a kingdom business, in that place where we are praying, "Lord, your will be done through this business- here on Earth exactly as you've designed it in Heaven."

So for me, that's a really important part of what I've done, and I've seen radical changes in businesses as we've done this.

Jim: And I wanna add that it's also important for people to understand, even more simplistically what you said, is that people need to know their work matters to God.

Peter Lawry: Absolutely.

Jim: And that's something that's a new concept to almost all believers. And I am agreeing with you. There's no such thing as a Christian business 'cause a business can't get saved. But there are people who are following Jesus who run businesses, which make that a kingdom business, 'cause everybody around them is benefiting from what they're doing because they're following Jesus. So the, I love the way you worded that. So Martha, you go ahead. A- ask this question, and then I've got a follow-up question.

Martha: Yeah. So this is a deep dive, you know into it, because there's so much that we could talk about that leads to this point. But ultimately, I believe that most people in their work when they're trying to bring biblical principles in, when they're trying to be kingdom wonder how they can hear the voice of God. Because ultimately, we need that leadership. It comes from hearing from the Lord.

Jim: Yeah.

Martha: How do we know? How do, how can someone learn to hear God's voice?

Jim: Oh, so let's go back. Let's talk about SaferNet before we get the answer, 'cause I really wanna go dig deep, and then I wanna interrupt it with a commercial after that. Okay. All right. So much like this conversation is gonna go, where we wanna hear God's voice clearly, we also want to keep listening to podcasts, to music, to the Bible online, on our mobile devices, and we also conduct business and communicate with other people on those same devices.

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Okay. So Peter, now the deep dive. Can someone learn to hear the voice of God for themselves?

Peter Lawry: Oh, yes, and it is so vital. And the starting point here is in John chapter 10. At the beginning of John chapter 10, Jesus says My sheep hear my voice. And when you get to the end of John chapter 10, around verse 28, it says, "My sheep hear my voice." If that's the case, if my sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me, which is the fullness of that later verse, then we have to start with the, we've got to begin, we've got to change our mindset here.

I hear people say to me "Yeah, but I don't hear God." Actually that's not true. The problem is you've not tuned in to what he's saying. So how can we hear the voice of God? And to be honest, this could be a half-an-hour topic on its own. It's such a big one. But in, in real simple terms, let me say this, that God is a God of creativity, and as a result, he speaks in 100 different ways, and he will do so for you in the way that you are most likely to hear him.

The listening is a decision that we have to make. We have to recognize that he's speaking, point number one, and we have to say, "Okay if he's talking, how do I tune in on the radio?" If you want to put it that way. If he's speaking on one frequency and I'm listening on another, I'd better change the way that I listen. So how then am I going to hear him? What am I looking for as I try that tuning process? And if you're creative, it's highly likely he's gonna speak to you in creative ways, and that could be through dreams, it could be through visions, it could be through a picture on a wall that just speaks to you deeply of something.

It could be a sunset, it could be you're watching the waves on a beach, and suddenly there's something majestic that pounces out at you. If you're more of a thinking kind of person, you may well hear him in words. And we often hear... In fact, I would probably guarantee that most of you have heard him and not recognized it, or possibly not recognized it.

So those moments where you just get that kind of a idea sometime, I think I need to contact so and and if you act on it, as often as not, you'll find that they are, "I'm so grateful that you you, you rang me. I just needed to hear what you've just said." That is God speaking to you, because thoughts arrive in our mind from three different locations.

One is just from our own cognitive processes. We ponder through a, something, we a thought arises out of that process. But the other two areas drop into our minds. And they can be sinful and from the demonic source, and we've all recognized that. We've all experienced temptations where the thoughts just dropped into our mind apropos of nothing.

But God speaks in the same way, because Satan only gets his ideas from God. He's not creative at all. He just borrows. So this is the way that God speaks. But of course, also scripture, of course also other people. And your spouse, guys. Particularly listen to your wife.

Jim: Speaking of listening to your wife, Tini, what I noticed in many of our prayer sessions over the last several weeks together, 'cause we've been together for, for three weeks, is that Peter's the upfront guy- ... but you're the lis- you're listening, and God is speaking to you, and you're hearing things, and you echo some things that Peter says. But you often add to what Peter has said. This learning to listen to God's voice, how did you learn to listen to God's voice?

Tini Lawry: Firstly, I'm not good at speaking, so I listen.

Jim: Everybody listening to the podcast is going- ... "I don't think so, Tini. You did just fine." (chuckling)

Tini Lawry: Okay. Okay. So I listen. I'm naturally listening, and I have been blessed with a gift of hearing certain things what need emphasis or what is an emotion behind it or something like that. And so it might be in the prayers, but it might also be just people telling the story or saying something, and then all of a sudden I can pick up on, on a word, usually just one word. And later on, when there is a chance, I'll be able to pray into that. That's, that, that's how I hear and see.

Martha: Yeah. Interesting. I think that's so good because it's discerning, and it... Sometimes people don't even realize what they've brought up- ... that you pick up on, because maybe either you're someone, not really familiar with them, and so you have a fresh perspective or you just hear profoundly the, the Lord prompt you with something.

And so what an encouragement for all of us to take that and say, "Okay, Lord, how can I be more like that?" I'm sitting here thinking about the fact that you started, Peter, with this comment about, that my sheep hear my voice. And we've talked many times about how New Zealand is full of sheep, right? (laughter) There are a lot of sheep there. There's six times more sheep than people. Yeah, so a lot of sheep.

And so I think that even when someone is hearing a podcast like this, and they pick up on that and go, "You know what? I need to dig in a little bit more. How do sheep hear their, the shepherd's voice? And how do I be like that sheep?" We don't have time to delve into all of that, but that's the kind of thing that I think is hearing the voice of God and saying it's pricked me.

It's made me aware of something that is in scripture. Now I need to dig a little deeper, because God's given us the scripture. That is the voice of God right there. And we often ignore that.

Peter Lawry: But He's not only given us the scripture, He's given us Jesus, who is the Word. Revelation 19 actually states that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And I think one, yeah, two little things I would say is, first of all, ask Him. "Lord, would you help me tune in?" Just be practical. Be honest with Him. He loves those honest conversations.

Read the Psalms. You'll find out that David was. And the second thing is, when something pops into your mind or something appears to you, thinking, "Is that God, or is it me?" A lot of people ask that to begin with, and I would say act on it, and you'll find out, and sometimes you'll be right, and sometimes you'll be wrong. But that's the process by which we learn. Yeah. Look at a toddler.

Tini Lawry: I also would say find out how God is speaking to you. Don't compare. For years I compared it with how Peter heard. And I think "I don't hear anything." And but my way of listening or how I get the words are totally different. As I was describing before, it can be just a word, what somebody says, or I all of a sudden get the picture or the overview what leads to a strategy of whatever people are planning. So find out the way you personally hear it. Don't compare to other people.

Martha: Yeah. That's such a powerful word.

Jim: And we say that all the time, there are eight-plus billion people on this planet- ... all created in the image of God, none alike, and each one of us experiences God differently because we are created differently in the image of God. And so there could be eight billion different ways to hear the voice of God. We're never gonna know, because we're not gonna be that smart.

Martha: No, and I was thinking about that too, and I just wanna comment. It wasn't until I heard a pastor's wife speaking about how she communicated with God that I finally was like, "Oh, what God's doing in me is okay." It's not this 10-point program that somebody else is saying that, that's how they hear God's voice. And it gave me permission to lean into that more, because I was like, "Okay, you're exactly right, Tini. I shouldn't compare myself to anybody else. It's my relationship with the Lord." We need to do it. We need to be in the Word and actually communicating with Him. And really, that's the beginning of all of it.

Peter Lawry: But weighing and testing is also important. One of the ways we weigh and test is we share with other people-

Martha: Okay ...

Peter Lawry: what we're receiving, because that provides accountability. Especially while we're learning. "Do you think this was God when I heard this?" "Yeah, I think it was, for this reason."

Martha: Yeah.

Peter Lawry: And you're right to use the word communication rather than hearing. We use hearing as a bit of a lazy word. We don't all hear God. Sometimes we see Him. Sometimes we experience Him. Sometimes it's just an emotion or an awareness, a discerned awareness in a space. You can walk into a room, and it feels really different from another room, and sometimes that's the presence of God.

Jim: All right. So you two are heading off into, quote-unquote, "retirement years," which we're gonna talk about on the next episode of iRetire4Him. But you're not retiring. And you guys have had two... You've had really a bifurcated path in ministry, for the most part. Lions Club and marketplace ministry, and Peter was a, basically a kingdom business consultant, and Tini's a mentor and disciple. Tini is a mentor and disciple in the Lions Club, and been very involved in Lions Club International.

But I sense over the last several months as we've been talking and prepping and as we've spent many weeks together now, many, many, many weeks together. (laughter)

Peter Lawry: You'll be grateful when we leave, won't you?

Jim: Not even. Not even. But I did feel like emphasizing that just for fun... that God is pulling you two together for the next step, the next stages of your ministry. Tini, you got any idea what that would be like?

Tini Lawry: No. (chuckles) Definitely, yeah, when we came to the US, there was, there were expectations, and we had the feeling that God was doing great things and, but had no idea what they were like. For the people we met, we were fresh people. They didn't know us from a bar of soap so what they saw and what they fed back to us, what they saw, made a change in me.

Although the roads were a little bit separate. And all these things are good for preparation because all this leadership stuff, what I've learnt in Lions and the event organization, and who knows what that will, how that will come together.

Jim: Ah, the New Zealand Christian Chamber of Commerce Expo 2028. (laughter) Everybody look for Tini Lawry. She's gonna be the one organizing that event. But you guys make an amazing team. You guys have operated in different sectors, but we've seen you together these last three weeks. And you guys- They have very complementary skills.

Tini Lawry: Yes. I came to, to the US. Peter was going to do all these things that God had shown him to do or what he got involved with, and I was just tagging along. So just... and I think I heard from people that say "Tini, you're the powerhouse." And I was like, yes. And so that changed my, my, yeah, perspective a little bit. And I said okay, maybe I am an equal part in this team. And it's just different things, what we do, but together we are the team. And so I can see that is going to be quite a strong team with God in the middle, so it's the triangle, isn't it?

Martha: It is. Yeah. Peter, anything to add to that? What do you see?

Peter Lawry: 18 months ago, I think it was we went to another congregation to... I was invited to preach, and they prayed for both of us at the beginning. And a group of about eight intercessors, six of them started prophesying over us. And all of them said, "We see that God is starting something new in you that you'll be doing together."

And when we first got married, which was a number of years ago now, we did a lot together, and our paths have diverged, not because we sought that, but because opportunities opened differently. And we felt strongly God was leading us both down those areas, and we felt that about each other's call as well.

So I came here thinking, "Lord, is this the time for us to find out what that is?" "Or would you set something in motion?" So I agree with Tini. I don't think we know yet quite what the future will hold, but there is a tremendous sense of us having done something together in a way we haven't for quite a long time. And it's worked, and it's been good, and we've enjoyed it.

Martha: Yes. That's so good.

Peter Lawry: Lord, more of it, please.

Martha: And what a great example for people listening. And the, it doesn't mean that you have to be working and getting a paycheck together in order to be doing what God is calling you to do on a day-to-day basis, whether it's ministering to somebody that you meet at a restaurant or in a meeting where, you know, one of you is in the meeting and the other one is, encouraging the other one about it. Whatever that might be, I believe that God has given us the experiences to help us to be who we are in that next chapter.

And so often, we've talked about this, you can look back and go, "Okay, I see how God prepared me by let- giving me this experience and this experience," and now who knows what's to come. So we'll have to do a follow-up. I'm guessing that's a for sure thing.

Jim: Part two coming up sometime in 2027, yes. Peter and Tini Lawry, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today.

Tini Lawry: You're welcome.

Peter Lawry: Thank you for inviting us.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers in our workplace. It's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

5/13/26 - 2146: Building a Business with a Kingdom Mindset

Jim: This is iWork4Him, where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

The kingdom. Jesus talked way more about the kingdom than he did the church. Why? What did he mean by the kingdom? He resisted anyone making him an earthly king, so where is this kingdom? Is it in heaven or is it on earth, or maybe somewhere else? No question this is a topic of grave misunderstanding amongst the average believer because it is not one of those regular sermon topics for Sunday morning. Jesus talked about the kingdom residing in us in Luke 21.

So how does that work? Does that mean there are two billion parts of the kingdom on the earth right now spread all over the globe? Why would Jesus do it that way? Wouldn't it be easier to just get it over with and have Jesus come back and establish his permanent kingdom now? Oh, if we only had the answers.

But in the meantime, we as followers of Jesus in the workplaces of America and around the world have a unique role. Our little part of the kingdom is supposed to be influencing our part of the world in a unique and powerful way each and every day. As I say often on this show, as a Jesus follower, that's the kingdom.

Geeta Chopra has an amazing Jesus story, and she's written a simple guide to developing and stewarding a kingdom mindset. Geeta Chopra, welcome to iWork4Him. And Geeta, is it Chopra or is it Choppra? I should have asked beforehand. I apologize.

Geeta Chopra: Hello, everyone. And it's Chopra just like Oprah, so that's a little trick to remember.

Jim: I apologize. Geeta Chopra, welcome to iWork4Him.

Geeta Chopra: Oh, I'm so blessed to be here. Thank you, Jim.

Jim: All right. So we always start off, with every new guest on the show we always start off with this question. Tell us your Jesus story. How did you become a follower of Jesus?

Geeta Chopra: Oh, wow, what a loaded statement.

Jim: For you, it is definitely a loaded statement.

Geeta Chopra: As everyone knows, I come from Hinduism, and I come from a long line of generational Hindus, not just randomly, but probably dating back to Adam as far as I would speculate. And being the first woman in my bloodline to accept Jesus Christ, I don't take it lightly, and neither has the devil taken it lightly.

How I came to Jesus is, wow, phew. I would say I got baptized on Mother's Day back in 2016, and what happened was a year before that, I was stuck in New Age, and I was searching, I was seeking. I would go to temples in India and sit there and meditate and just feel so empty. And I went throughout the whole country looking, reading, going to ashrams, which you wouldn't know what that is, but those are religious centers.

And then after that, it didn't satisfy me, so I took refuge in the New Age, only to be more disappointed. And one Sunday morning in 2015 in May, God woke me up and He said, "Go to church." The Holy Spirit gave me an explicit direction on which church to go to. He just put that vision in front of me and said, "Go to that church."

And I rolled over, and when I went back, back to bed, and I was like, "Okay, that's a good idea. I will." And then He woke me up immediately again and He said, "No. Go right now." So I got up, I went. I got out of bed, got dressed, and I walked into that church, and a year later, I got baptized and I never looked back, and I've been satisfied with the Lord ever since.

Jim: That's a great story, and there's so much more meat to that. I know you just gave us the very succinct version. But since you didn't grow up in the church, where did you learn that followers of Jesus really needed to learn how to have a kingdom mindset?

Geeta Chopra: And you know- ... so when you get baptized, Jim, as you, and as people would know who's watching this you dip in the water. So your body gets dipped in the water, you come back out, and the moment you come back out, you get a new spirit. You- it's no longer I that live, but Christ that lives through me, and that's Galatians 2:20. So I'm dead to sin, but now I'm alive to God through Christ Jesus in my spirit. But we also have a soul and we have a body.

So our mind is not renewed in that water, and we have to spend the rest of our Christian life renewing our mind, and that's Romans 12:2. That's why Paul said that, right? Because my spirit is done. I'm righteous. If God looks at me today, He doesn't see my sin, and believe me, I have sinned, even after being saved. But God doesn't see that. He calls me righteous.

It's my mind where the problem is lagging. I'm lagging behind in my spirit. So this book will help you to renew your mind, and we do that through the Word of God.

Jim: And Geeta is mentioning a book. She wrote this book, Kingdom Mindset, and it is really just a hand- it's a hand guide on how to develop that kingdom mindset, which is why I wanted to have her on today.

Because what I've realized, as a longtime believer- This is not a subject, a topic that's talked about very much, Geeta. It is a subject that most people don't understand. They d- they didn't, they don't understand that the Lord's Prayer when it says, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven," they don't really understand that.

They're like, they're thinking that means when Jesus comes back, that kingdom. Yet what I've come to realize, Geeta, is that what I did in my introduction. Every one of us that's a believer has a piece of the kingdom in them. We are a representation of the kingdom, which means there's now two-plus billion of us across the planet, so a quarter of the planet is operating the kingdom, and the planet is supposed to be blessed by that.

And that's what I w- wanted to really get into today is how do we become a blessing? By developing a kingdom mindset, how does that become a blessing to those around us? And I really wanna get into that today. Talk to me about what drove you to gain this understanding.

Geeta Chopra: Thank you, Jim, and every answer I have will lead back to the life of Jesus Christ.

So what really drove me was when I first came to Christianity, I noticed that Christians are not... Okay, let me rephrase. Many Christians are living as Hindus, and that's a provocative statement, but nonetheless true. They, we don't know what we have in Christ. First of all, we don't know we've, we're forgiven.

Many Christians are carrying guilt, and that's a sin. The Bible makes it clear, if God has grace and compassion towards us, who am I to then judge myself? We're not judges, right? And we're not supposed to judge our neighbor. But what about ourselves? So I carried a lot of guilt from Hinduism, because there's no savior in Hinduism. You have to atone for your own sins through a series of rituals. And the only thing sadder than that is to come to Christianity and find people doing the same thing.

So this has really provoked my spirit to get out there, write these books, speak, minister, and have people I pray and minister to coming back to how to do that. Jesus Christ, if we look at His temptations in the wilderness, and there was three of them, each time He didn't answer those negative thoughts with more thoughts. 'Cause I believe the Devil came to Him in a thought, not in the physical form. If it was physical, it's so easy.

It's "Oh, you're the Devil. Get out of here. I'm not gonna listen to you." But I believe it came in the form of a thought where it was tempting for Jesus, just like he comes to us today. Now, I could be wrong, but nonetheless, Jesus therefore answered him with another, with the scripture, not with a positive thought, like New Age teaches.

So if we want to build our kingdom mindset, we have to practice mind management, and the only way to do that is through scripture. We have to tear down strongholds in our mind. And believe me, we all have them. I had mine from Hinduism. And, it's breaking down a fortress of lies that, that's been built up in our mind for years, probably generations.

And we do that like Jesus did, by answering the Devil all day long with scripture. And if you don't know scripture, you've already lost the game. So read the Word. That's what I talk about in my book on how to attain this thing, 'cause we can all attain it.

Jim: What I love is you talk as if s- you, you're someone that's had 40 years to study this, and y- you've got theological studies and, you've got a doctorate in this, doctorate in that. But that's not at all the case. You're not even old enough to say 40. You're, this is, you're just a kid compared to me, and that's what I praise the Lord about. You have ... God has grabbed you, and you grabbed onto God, and through Jesus, your life has been transformed, and you're really studying this because this, you see the freedom that following Jesus brings.

You've seen that in your own life, and you're like, "Why doesn't everybody else have that same freedom?" You brought up something, and I wanna do this before I get to go to a break and highlight a sponsor. The guilt. Any time there's guilt and shame, as believers, we need to recognize that's not from God, because God doesn't deal in guilt.

But we grow up in a world, certainly this country, having me growing up in the Midwest, you living in the Northeast, there's a lot of Catholic influence, which talks about a lot of guilt. But the Baptists are really good at guilt, too. "You did what on Saturday night? You went to a dance?" And that kind of ridiculous stuff.

But even more not to be driven by avoiding guilt is this forgiving ourselves. Because you are right that way too many believers have missed the point, i- because it's, Jesus said, "Hey, we need to love our enemies and pray for those that persecute us," but then He goes on to say after the Lord's Prayer, He goes on, "Hey, but if you got somebody that's got something against you, s- just stop your sacrifice right there, go and reconcile with them, and then come back and complete your sacrifice."

Most of the time, we always focus out on other people that have offended us or that we've offended. But it, Geeta, it's that forgiving one's self that seems to be the hardest thing to do. How have you dealt ... Because you brought it up, so I'm gonna put you on the spot. How have you dealt with learning to forgive yourself?

Geeta Chopra: The hardest thing I ever had to do- ... in my Christian walk, and I still challenge to do that today, Jim, is forgiving myself. But it goes back to obedience. Jesus commands me. He doesn't suggest it. He says even forgive your enemies, and I could be my own enemy, but He says to forgive ourselves because He forgave us.

So I have to obey Him, and obedience to me is super important. It's the shovel to get to digging out strongholds, obeying God. And it comes along very strongly alongside the cousin of repentance, which is, and all of these are in my book, dedicated chapters to each topic. But grace is maybe how I will triumph this, by saying that Jesus Christ loves us so much, and we can't fathom this.

And there was a time in my life just a couple years ago in my Christian life where I just broke down and started crying because God just started pouring His grace on me, and that's in the book. And I realize that it really- It's true. God really does love us that much. And this sounds so simplistic how it's coming out, but when you understand that, it'll shift your spiritual DNA, your mindset, and you will never, ever go back to the same way.

And that grace is what helps me to forgive myself, and you can't explain it. You can only experience it. And if you wanna obey Jesus, look, go back to His original commandment. It's love, Jim. Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as you love yourself. That's a lot of love and summarized in two commandments but yourself is in there.

Jim: But when you look at developing a kingdom mindset, your book, you can't do it without doing what Jesus said. Jesus summarized the entirety of the law and the prophets in two sentences: love God, love people. And Christians aren't really good at loving people. We need to... That, if those two billion people on the planet loved just three more of their neighbors, that would cover all eight billion people on the planet.

We need to love our neighbors. Just think about it. Or maybe it's four people. I don't know how to do the math. But if those two billion love three people, that would be, if each one loved another... Yeah, that makes us eight billion. That gets us there.

Geeta Chopra: Oh.

Jim: So but we need to love our neighbors. It, the kingdom mindset is completely useless if you haven't learned to love God and love your neighbor. That's why I like to say it, that a- as a believer, everything about us should be changing, and everyone around us should be benefiting from our faith whether they believe in Jesus or not. That's the kingdom.

And sometimes we need to surround ourselves with other people that have a kingdom-minded mindset. That's how we learn, that's how we grow, and that's how we're challenged. This June, we invite you to join us at Cincinnati for the National Faith at Work Summit, June 17th through the 19th, with the theme of frontiers.

Build- building up collaboration, using creativity, and developing continuity within the body of Christ. This is an invitation to everybody to participate, to examine emerging opportunities in the faith and work movement, and challenges at the intersection of faith, leadership, and work. Join Martha and I, as we'll be emceeing this event June 17th through the 19th in Cincinnati. Check it out online, faithatworksummit2026.org.

So Geeta, tell us the heart behind your book. What drove you to say, "I have got to write this"? I got a guess as to what it would be, but what's the real reason?

Geeta Chopra: Yeah, and I b- I built, I wrote that book alongside building my company, which is the Christian Business Directory, so a lot of lessons from building my startup are in there. And God told me to put all those lessons in a book because, when you are a Christian entrepreneur, God exposes all the unhealed parts of you. Someone said that, and I really appreciated that quote. I took it-

Jim: Say that again. Nice and slow, 'cause it was good

Geeta Chopra: When you become a Christian entrepreneur, God exposes all the unhealed parts of you.

Whe- whatever it is, pride, insecurity, greed, stubbornness, right? So God showed me some things that I needed to repent from, and I wouldn't have unless they came face to face with me in my company, 'cause it's easy to just put things aside if they're in your personal life. "I'll deal with it later."

But if you want to do well and, if your revenue's at stake, you have to face, get up and face certain things every day, which are personality flaws or, character defects that God still wants to build. God built patience in me, for example, and I believe that's one of the chapters.

Jim: You didn't pray for patience, did you?

Geeta Chopra: Oh, yeah, how dare I do that, right? And be careful what you ask for, because I'm much more patient than I was a year ago sitting in this chair. But also sitting in this chair today I know that Jesus Christ owns my time, talent, and treasure. Nothing belongs to me.

It's all owned by him. And God gave Moses the grace or the blueprint to build the tabernacle. He gave Noah the blueprint to build the ark, and he gave David the blueprint to build the temple. And look, God gave me the blu- blueprint, to build this company, and I have to do it through obedience. So there was just too much pouring into me to not write this book.

Jim: Oh, okay. Hang on. You just said something so powerful we have got to stop there for just a second. I don't mean to interrupt you, because we are talking with Geeta Chopra. She wrote the book Kingdom Mindset. I recommend you get a copy of it. It's available on Amazon.

This blueprint thing. Again, I grew up white evangelical, and I say that because that really does clarify exactly where I grew up. I grew up in a church that talks a lot about reaching people of, for evangelism, not a lot about the kingdom. I grew up in a church that talks a lot about the application of my faith to Sunday and not to any other hour of the week.

Kingdom Mindset deals differently with that. And as a business guy, I've been an entrepreneur since I was eight years old. I started selling door-to-door greeting cards as an eight-year-old, so that's a long time ago. And Geeta, what I learned just in June of 2018 was that God has a blueprint for me.

If I would just ask him for the answers, he would give them to me. And then a buddy of mine wrote a book, oh, I suppose right around that same time that as our... It's called Our Unfair Advantage, Dr. Jim Harris. As we have the Holy Spirit in us, he has access to all the answers in the entire world, but we have to ask.

So how did you develop this kingdom mindset to understand that, how did you come to the understanding that God's got a blueprint for you?

Geeta Chopra: John 16:13 says, "I will tell you what's to come," right? So we have that upper advantage, and I talk a lot about that in my book too, 'cause God saved me from going to see psychics and astrologers, which is a large part of Hinduism.

And when I realized that the Holy Spirit will just tell you the future and I said, "I'm gonna give that up, and I'm gonna follow you forever, Lord." And ever since then, He tells me what's to come, and I'm so grateful. I don't take that lightly sitting here. I say this with great humility, 'cause not everyone hears from Him in that way.

But, it's, how did He tell me? I pray into it. A lot of my answers come in the morning. My morning time is very precious. I don't compromise that for anyone. I'll wake up before sunrise and I don't like waking up in the morning. Before I got saved, my flesh loves to sleep in.

That's the best part of sleeping for me. But I'll hear from God when I sacrifice that sleep, and I notice on the days that I don't hear from Him as much or a certain revelation doesn't come through. But, when you walk with the Lord and you really spend time in His presence, which is the Word of God, and even fellowship in the presence of other believers, such as yourself, this conversation, God will speak to you, and when you're worshiping at church, i'll get, I'll download revelation about what I need to do in my business when I'm worshiping Him a- singing a song or something. So it comes in different ways.

Jim: But you also have to balance that with the fact that we don't always get the answers we want. Not, not- ... not that we want, but we don't always get the answers that we're asking for.

Because sometimes God just wants us to walk in faith. He may tell us to do the most ridiculous thing when He gives you that blueprint, and you're like, "Yeah, God, but that doesn't work. This is... you live in Connecticut. This doesn't work on the East Coast. I live in Missouri. It doesn't work in the Midwest either, God. What are You thinking?"

And He's "But that's what I'm asking you to do." That's where faith comes in. He may describe to you what the next steps are, and you have to work past the, "But as a businessperson, that just doesn't make sense, God. H- Have You had your coffee this morning? Are You thinking straight?"

For me, it would be, "Mountain Dew, God. You need Mountain Dew. We're not... We need some clarity on this." But that's really... Sometimes God gives us a blueprint, Geeta, that doesn't really make sense. Like- Yeah ... yours and your situation. Come on. Tell everybody your situation. God gave you a blueprint to run a Christian company, the Christian business directory, then He told you to do it in a what?

Geeta Chopra: If I told you all the things the Holy Spirit told me that didn't make sense, I'd, I think you'd be shocked, really shocked. There's times where I've been sick and God said, "No, don't take that medicine," even though I knew it was the medicine, and He said, "No, this is something spiritual. I'm healing you in a different way."

Most believers wouldn't do that. And, God has called me to such a standard of obedience, and He tested me. He tested me the way He tested Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness because He said, "If you obey me with this small thing, I'll give you bigger things." So there was a series of obediences before He gave me this company, 'cause I believe this company's gonna be huge.

And even the way I built the company. He's, He told me to hire Muslims to, as my first team of developers. I hired them. I eventually had to fire them, but I didn't fire them until the Holy Spirit told me to fire them. I wanted to get rid of them long before I actually did, but I obeyed the Holy Spirit. Why? Back then it didn't make sense. Today it does. So there's been a s-

Jim: Wait wait ... s- Just explain why. Would you just stop jumping over? You just wanna get to the details. Tell us those details. Why does it make sense today and it didn't make sense then? What do you know now that you didn't know then?

Geeta Chopra: Yeah, and I'm trying to be careful on what I can reveal publicly. But, I- God used me to minister to them is probably the summary of it, and He used them to build patience and character in me, which I'm still using today with the Christians that I eventually hired, thank God. Wait a minute. But God put me through it.

Jim: Which was harder, working with the Muslims or the Christians? Don't answer that question on the air. Yeah. Okay.

Geeta Chopra: No, it's hands down working with Muslims- ... because y- they don't have the conviction of the Holy Spirit. When you work with Christians, there's always gonna be that understanding or that repentance the next day if someone makes a mistake, the humility, and if there's not, you just pray for that conviction.

The Holy Spirit can speak to another Christian. I don't know if it's easy as, for Him to speak to an unbeliever, right? I know He spoke to me when I was an unbeliever and told me to get up and go to church that morning, but in my experience it's easier once someone has that seed in them, that's it. It never goes away.

So you can pray into that. But look, there was a lot of things the Holy Spirit asked me to do that just don't make sense, and I know that my family thought I was crazy, my church, some of my pastors even were like, "What is... What? That's not the way, that, it's not rational." So I put it in my book, Jim.

The Holy Spirit's word is not always gonna make sense in human terms, and most believers can't get over that, and they miss their destiny. They miss a destiny moment at least. And I made it a point to not do that. I don't care what God tells me, I will do it. I don't care how crazy it sounds, with the grace of God I'll do it. So far anyway. Praise God.

Jim: It's so true. Everything you just said was, is so true, but that's because we need to be trained. That's why more discipleship, not a program, but a lifestyle needs to happen. Because Geeta, as you've learned all the things you're learning about, how many young women are you pouring your training into? Because that's how it passes on, that's how it grows. How many women are you pouring your life into?

Geeta Chopra: Three people have come up to me the last month and asked me to mentor them. Of course, they're all women. And I found that really cool because, it's sometimes when you repent and you feel like you're at your lowest point or you just committed a sin "Oh, I can't believe I made that mistake again."

And it's at that time, I'll get the phone call like, "Hey, can you mentor me?" Or like... And it's God's way of showing me, "I'm still using you. I love you." And it's those moments, Jim, that are destiny moments that just changes everything. But yes, God does want me to mentor people, and He has called me to that standard, so I, I have a responsibility. It's, we can't be lazy Christians. We can't be lazy Christians here.

Jim: Y- because those two words don't go together. If you're a believer and you'll find that I don't use the word Christian very often on this show because people don't really know what it means. But when they say they're a Jesus follower or a believer in Jesus, then that's a whole different world.

It's easy to say, "I'm a Christian." It's another thing to say, "I follow Jesus." Because people know about Jesus, everybody knows about Jesus on this planet. They know about Him. They know that He had the different standard, and we need to follow it. I wanna talk about the Christian business directory.

I wanna take a break here for just a second. Most of us use our mobile device or our computer not only to listen to music and podcasts, but also to conduct business and communicate with other people. Imagine if you get a virus on your device and you can't use it for its intended purpose. It will only set you back on time, waste your energy, but also it may compromise the work you're doing.

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Geeta, God not only directed you to write this book, Kingdom Mindset, which we've just barely skimmed the surface of, but he also said, "Hey, build the Christian business directory." Tell us about this project God's got you working on.

Geeta Chopra: Yeah. So I was in a, I was in a partnership with another person for a trucking company, a family member, and it suddenly went silent, so my ownership just became, I became a silent partner, and I had some time on my hands.

And God wanted to use my time for the kingdom, so in that exact moment, He told me, "Get up, build this company." He gave me the vision. I was on an airplane heading to Florida, I remember, and I was doing an interview for my book actually going to Florida for that. And He spoke to me, and He told me what to do, and He gave me, He laid it all out, so I did it.

And what we're doing is we're building a twofold purpose directory, supply side and demand side. So one, we're supplying the Christian small business owner a platform to list their business and be s- seen by the world and benefit from our SEO. And then we're providing a safe platform for the Christian consumer to find professionals that uphold their biblical values.

So we vet all these professionals and we put the two of them together in one place so you can go happy fishing. And we do that because for such a time as this in the secular marketplace it's politically incorrect to do that, but God called me out, say, "Look, this is much needed. I'll support you. I'll back you up. I'll make sure it takes off." So this is his kingdom that we're building, and we've had a great public response. Many people are excited about it.

Jim: So Geeta, is the people that you've got on the website, is it right now primarily located in the Northeast, the business that you're dealing with? Or is this expanding nationwide already?

Geeta Chopra: Oh, that's way, way too small for the Holy Spirit. It's global. He told me every country. So we've got partners in Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Kenya, UK, hopefully Poland now. We're looking at Australia. We're available in every country, and we're looking at making partnerships in every country.

Jim: Wow. Wow, what a vision. The vetting thing is something that I wanna hit on because that, there's a lot of directories that supposedly list Christians on them, and I've experienced some of them are neat and some of them are not. You mentioned SEO, so this is all online. How do you make sure that these are people that are gonna do what they say they're gonna do?

Geeta Chopra: So they have free will, I'll just- ... preface it by that, but my personal guarantee to every consumer is that I will vet them before they ever create a profile on our app. So they're asked to sign a statement of faith, and if they do sign it they get a golden cross verification on their profile.

If they don't. So buyer beware if someone has not signed it, they won't have that golden cross. Now the next question is, the obvious one, is if they do sign it and they're not really Christian, they just signed it they'll be eventually be exposed. That's my prayer. We're gonna be praying daily, and we have a public review system to back that up.

So if you sign the golden cross sorry the statement of faith and you receive a golden cross, but then you're not really acting in the principles of the Lord, you're gonna get bad public reviews, 'cause we allow consumers to leave reviews on there as well. And we can remove people, so we're gonna have a team, proactively doing that and monitoring that as well. I- But we trust the Lord to bring the right people.

Jim: How do you find this online?

Geeta Chopra: So we're going live soon. It's excellencedirectory.com. Please go there, check out our landing page. Join the wait list. This may be live by the time this pro- show airs.

Jim: Okay. Very good. Excellencedirectory.com. Excellencedirectory.com. Because as believers, everything about us should be defined by the excellence we demonstrate in our work. No question. Because everything about us has been changed because of the power of the Holy Spirit inside of us. Geeta, I love this conversation. We could talk for five hours, I know that, but we're limited.

I'd like to give you the last almost the last word, but what final words of encouragement do you have for everybody listening today, whether it's about the kingdom mindset, running a business what ... Final word to the audience today.

Geeta Chopra: Wow. Something deep in my heart and just heavy on my spirit is the Bible says the repentance of God, sorry, the goodness of God brings the repentance of man.

So I just wanna encourage anyone out there who's heavy laden and carrying sin and trying to do it in their own way, and I'm speaking to believers and unbelievers right now. Go and ask Jesus for his grace. Just lay it at his feet. Give him your burden, give him your heaviness, 'cause he really does love you.

And, you have a great destiny ahead and the Lord just loves you beyond you can ever know, so give him a chance. And if you don't know Jesus, I really wanna encourage you that, look at my background, where I came from as a Hindu, from New Age, to conf- from confusion to the truth, capital T.

Give Jesus a chance. Ask him who he is. Ask him to reveal himself in your life, and you will never look back.

Jim: Geeta Chopra, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today, th- for sharing your story. I have a feeling this is only one of many interviews we'll do over the years, because as God reveals things to you, you're gonna need to reveal those to many other people. Geeta, thank you for being on iWork4Him today.

Geeta Chopra: God bless.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. I'm a Christ follower. My workplace, it's my mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him

5/6/26 - 2145: An Invitation to God's Mulligan for Life

Jim: This is iWork4Him. This is also iRetire4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and faith meets retirement, and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: I grew up playing golf. It was the only place my dad and I could talk. Dad loved golf and retired so he could play almost every day. I challenged dad often about his golfing, asking him, is there a point to your golfing, dad? What are you gonna say to God when you walk into heaven and he asks you, what did you do with your 27 years of retirement? Dad would say, I shot my age a couple of times.

Golf is known as "a good walk spoiled" by the famous author, Mark Twain, but to Challenge Golf, it's known as a place where ministry begins. And Ron 3-Putt Potter, he loves golf. Apparently he has a problem with putting, but he loves golf. Challenge golf is focused on using the game of golf to minister to those who are struggling with the realities of life, one golfer at a time. Wes Kleiner joined the board of directors four years ago and is now the executive director of Challenge Golf. And both Wes and Ron join us today.

They could be retired, but now they're working harder than ever and the results are out of this world. Ron and Wes, welcome to iWork4Him and iRetire4Him.

Ron Potter: Thank you, Jim and Martha. Thank you, Jim and Martha, for having us.

Jim: Oh, you bet. Ron, where did the love of golf enter your life?

Ron Potter: I actually didn't start playing golf till after I played baseball in college. I went to a small school up in Upper East Tennessee, near Elizabeth. It was called Milligan. And basically it was a curve ball that got me a college education. And I thank the Lord for that. 'Cause I was a pitcher. And then when I got outta school, I was competitive, so I wanted something to do. So my dad and I started playing golf, and so that's when I actually fell in love with the game.

Jim: Wow. So where did Jesus enter your life in that whole equation?

Ron Potter: That was a long time before college. I was 11 years old and I felt convicted about my sins and I started asking my parents questions, and it was back in the day when the pastor would actually come out and visit you at your house, and the pastor came out to my house and he led me to the Lord. And it's changed my life ever since.

Jim: So before Challenge Golf, how did your faith impact your work?

Ron Potter: I was in corporate sales for many years and I would take clients out to the golf course and I would take 'em to lunch. And of course I wanted to share my faith with them because it was real in my life. It had changed my life, and I wanted them to know about Jesus as well.

Martha: That's so good. And I wanna hear - Ron, I guess for our listeners, we met almost five years ago, and I think our listeners need a to hear or have a reminder of about the mission of Challenge Golf. What is it all about?

Ron Potter: Absolutely. We wanna share the good news with a million golfers, and that was the original vision, and that was back in the year 2004. And the Lord has just laid it on my heart. I had two businesses I was running and owned and operated, and I sold one and I closed the other. And about the time that you came, and I remember you came to the Tim Tebow event, and I think it was at the Carnegie Hotel in Johnson City, Tennessee. And it was about that time that we wanted to start making Challenge Golf evangelistic.

Jim: We also did the events at Macklemore, which that was gorgeous. What a place that was.

Ron Potter: Yeah, that's an incredible venue. And we still go there each year. And they're friends of the ministry and it's always great to have a venue like that. They've added a new golf course too, Jim, and they've got this hotel resort now that makes it easy for us to have a banquet.

Jim: Nice. When you say you wanna reach a million golfers for Christ, how does that happen when you're out playing golf? 'Cause when you're playing golf, you gotta concentrate on one thing because between the time when you're taking your back swing and you come back and you wanna hit the ball, 'cause I get distracted between the back swing and the forward swing, it's a very long period of time. I don't have time to think about anything else. How do you intermix all of that in one?

Ron Potter: We don't share Jesus on the golf course itself. We do it either prior to the event or after the event. We have banquets and we have guest speakers, and a lot of times it's ordained pastors that come and share the good news. Or it might be someone like Tim Tebow or Darrell Strawberry or Tom Lehman, or some of our good friends that who have the celebrity status and then when they show up, of course that helps us attract the crowd.

Martha: Yeah.

Ron Potter: But by the way, we're doing free golf events each month with each chapter. Just the word free attracts a lot of golfers and it helps us to book out these events each time we do one.

Jim: Therefore you're not paying for the frustration. You actually get free frustration. (laughter)

Martha: I like that. Oh, that's awesome. I love the concept because you are attracting people in a, to an area that they're already interested in, but you are giving them no obstacles for getting there. In fact, you're enticing them by the people that they can maybe hear from and learn from. Tell us about some of the amazing miracles that you've seen God do since the onset of Challenge Golf began.

Ron Potter: One that comes to mind was a gentleman by the name of Scotty Fitzgerald. He calls our chapter director one Sunday afternoon. He said - now keep in mind he came to an event three years prior to calling our chapter director - and he said, I was at Black Creek in Chattanooga three years ago, and I remember this guy named 3-Putt Potter. He probably said, I remember this fat ugly guy named three put Potter, (laugher) but Gary didn't tell me that, and Gary just said he, he said, Ron, he's in the hospital and he's got liver cancer.

And he asked that we come up and see him. So I stopped what I was doing. We went up on a Sunday afternoon, and I remember we led Scotty to the Lord that day. And it changed his life. And now I know that we'll spend eternity with Scotty. And we'll play the Real Master's Invitational once we get to Heaven.

Jim: Oh, you think there's gonna be golf in heaven?

Ron Potter: Absolutely. Because Lord gives us the desires of our heart.

Martha: Eternal golf. (chuckling)

Jim: But you will never be able to play Jesus, cause He is gonna have a perfect swing every time.

Ron Potter: True. There's no bogies in heaven either.

Martha: But there's also no crying, this is a good thing when it comes to golf.

Jim: I just can't imagine chipping through heaven.

Martha: What a great miracle though, to actually share. That's just I'm sure the tip of the iceberg, but what a victory that you guys open the door, that to create a relationship that could then be called upon. 'Cause often people call upon the Lord and are looking for that in their desperate time of need and he knew where to go, and you made that possible through Challenge Golf. That is such a great story.

Jim: I love that. All right. Most of us use our mobile devices and our computers not only to listen to music and podcasts, but also to conduct business and communicate with others. Imagine if you get a virus on your device and you can't use it for its intended purposes. It will only set you back on time and waste energy and potentially compromise the work you're doing. SaferNet is a trusted partner of iWork4Him and iRetire4Him that we've installed on all of our mobile devices and computers.

Their virus protection, VPN, 84 web filters, keep the bad guys out so you can keep doing the Kingdom of God work that he has called you to do. Check out safer net.com. Let them know that iWork4Him sent you. Alright, so Wes heading over to you. Where did your love of golf come from?

Wes Kliner: I started golfing with my dad when I was probably 11 years old, maybe 12. He had an older set of clubs he cut down a little bit. He'd take me out to the range. We'd hit balls. When I started hitting him a little bit more consistently, he would take me out with he and his brother and a friend of theirs, and I would be the guy that would have to find all the balls in the rough.

But I got some shots in and, when I got into high school, I just exploded. I loved it. Started playing all the time with buddies and kept playing with my dad. Never could beat my dad until I got into high school.

Jim: Oh, you did? You've beaten your dad. I never beat my dad ever in golf. I never got to do it.

Wes Kliner: Hey, he was a very busy man. He was my, he's the guy I looked up to. A very wonderful servant of God, took care of all of his family. He was the caretaker for his mom, his dad, his sister, who was invalid. So I had a good role model growing up. I really did.

Martha: That's fabulous.

Wes Kliner: I spent a lot of time with him.

Martha: So tell us about your love of Jesus. Where did that come into your life?

Wes Kliner: I first heard about Jesus when I was in first grade and my first grade teacher asked my mom and dad if I can go to church with them. I was a teacher's pet back then. I guess I still am because i've always been the guy people went to when they got a problem. I tend to be a problem solver. The bottom line is I heard about Jesus, but I never invited him into my life. I just had a good knowledge of who he is, and it wasn't until I was in high school and my best friend became my pastor's son, and I would hang out with him.

I talked to his dad quite a bit and I learned that it's not just getting the Lord and knowing who he is, it's getting him in your heart and dedicating yourself, just giving yourself completely over to him and providing service to other people. I'd had a great service model, but doing it for the Lord and glorifying the Lord and doing all of that is what became my focus. So it was in high school and I was baptized by my best friend's dad.

Martha: Oh, that's really special. Okay, so you just recently retired from your first career and really started a new career with Challenge Golf. But let's talk about your first career as a judge. How did your faith impact your work there?

Wes Kliner: There again, in my past lives, my first real long career was the law. I went to law school, = at the age of 32. I'd been a military officer. I'd also worked and built some houses in a gap year between my sophomore and junior year, or sophomore year. And when I enlisted in the Army - I speak Russian- I was a Russian linguist when I was enlisted. The Army sent me back to college. That's my background. So I had a lot of variety in my background and my wife and I both went to Memphis State, not University of Memphis back in 87.

We graduated in 90. And I worked as a lawyer for various firms and companies, wound up being general counsel for a couple of corporations and also worked helping a couple 501c3s get organized. And so about 12 and a half years ago, I became a US administrative law judge with social security. I loved that job because I was helping people who really needed to be helped. And discerning who was not really needing the help and was trying to take advantage of the system. So I felt like a good gatekeeper, but also a great servant to be able to help those people who were truly in need of help.

That's, I left that career. I had planned on working - i'm 72. I'm older than this guy. I know I look younger, but I'm older. (chuckles) About four years. I planned on working until I was 75 and my wife was all for it because financially we were doing well, but I'm getting ahead of myself. My first exposure to Challenge Golf was the Tebow event that you all were there and I was totally impressed with the ministry.

I was invited by Brandon Guy who helped with all the sound in the video. Anyway, I sing with him. I sing barbershop, too. So the bottom line is I saw the mission of Challenge Golf that this guy had envisioned, and I love it because not only do I believe in evangelism, I'm big in discipleship. It's time for men to stand up, women as well, to be leaders, to be disciples of Christ because the only way that our faith it's propagated in the next generation as if we plant those seeds of the gospel and then nurture them by getting them into the word and getting them to pray.

So that's my passion. That's what I've worked for all my life as a member of a church, as a deacon, as a Sunday school teacher, singing in choir, those sort of things. So my life has always been about commitment to the Lord in whatever I did. I'm the guy that you say, have a nice day. And I look at somebody, I'll say, have is a passive board, I'm proactive. I hope you are too, and you make it a great day. Because the Lord blesses everyone.

Martha: So were you implying then that you hurried up your retirement from your career so that you could then move into a role at Challenge Golf?

Wes Kliner: Actually I was browbeat by Ron, (laughter) And my fleece was if my wife is okay with it, then I'm okay with it. But she's, I have a fabulous wife, Pam, who just, she's my biggest fan. She's my biggest critic. She always lets me know when I'm messing up, which is frequent. So the bottom line is she said, Hey, it's where your heart is. It's always been where your heart is. We're good. Go forth. Do this, it's what the Lord is leading you to do. So that's what led me to come on board, my background, administration, leadership, those sort of things. So I'm an organizer. I'm a name taker. A rear end kicker too.

Ron Potter: And by the way, Wes and I are best of friends, and as a former federal judge, I like to kid him that his sentences are always long.

 (laughter)

Jim: Oh boy. Okay. Okay.

Wes Kliner: I was a lawyer. I get paid by the word. (laughter)

Martha: That's right. Wow. That's exactly right. Oh, that's wonderful though.

Jim: So there really will be lawyers in heaven. I always wondered about that, if there'd be lawyers in heaven.

 (laughing)

Wes Kliner: I know. At least two - my wife and I.

Jim: Nice, nice.

Martha: That's fabulous.

Jim: There you go.

Martha: You know so much like your story, Wes, where it's a reboot, sometimes we need a mid-year reboot. And this June, we want to invite everyone listening to join us in Cincinnati for the National Faith at Work Summit. June 17th through 19th with a theme of frontiers: collaboration, creativity, and continuity.

We invite participants to examine emerging opportunities and challenges at the intersection of faith, leadership, and work. I'll put the link in the show notes, but Jim and I will be MCing this event and we really hope to see you all there.

Jim: Alright, Ron, Challenge Golf enters a new era this spring, as spring arrives across the country. What can we expect from Challenge Golf this year, 2026?

Ron Potter: With Wes' Leadership, we're rolling out a new discipleship program that I'm really excited about. It's an 18 week kind of paralleling 18 holes. It's an 18 week discipleship program, and it's gonna assist golfers with their next steps in faith, both believers and unbelievers.

Jim: And how are you gonna pair the golfers up? Because discipleship is really mentoring and discipleship all at one time because we need to learn to live life along somebody who's a little further down the road in our faith. How do you do the matching up thing?

Ron Potter: When we do the invitational, we have caddies and caddies are like us. We put on a caddy uniform. We invite our unchurched golfers to come out and play in a free round of golf, which is a picture of a mulligan, being free. And then at the end of the day, we actually tell 'em about Jesus, who we compare that to God's Mulligan for mankind, the second chance we don't deserve and that we did not earn.

And so the caddy then will be given this discipleship program, and it teaches him how to go out into the community and follow up with the golfer that he led to that golf tournament. His original purpose is just to get the unchurched friend of his to the free golf tournament. It's pretty easy to do that when it's a free golf tournament.

Wes Kliner: In each chapter that we found in a new community, what we do is we look to partner up with local evangelical churches and we get their men's and women's ministries, women who and men who are golfers, to become involved as the leaders of that local chapter. And we're, we're looking for people that believe in the Apostles creed basically, Jesus Christ, triune God, and the only way to heaven is through faith in Christ and the filling of the Holy Spirit when you accept him as both savior and Lord of your life.

Church has that as a commitment. Yeah, I don't care whether you're sprinkled or dunked. We want you to come on board and partner with us, and it's those folks who will then act as the mentors. They also act as a landing point for those who are unchurched and unsaved to be able to go to and have fellowship, to have koinonia with a group of believers. So what we're looking to do is we're looking for human capital when we go to churches.

We don't need their financial support. We want people to be involved. And it's low impact. We're gonna provide a program that allows them to walk through, in a very logical fashion, the foundations of our faith. And then what it means to be a disciple. What are the attributes and what are the characteristics of a disciple? And what do you need to do to become a disciple?

And really all it is you need to be a servant that is willing to share, share who you love, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible that you use, and I prefer the English standard version. So the John MacArthur comment version, study Bible. So the bottom line is we get churches to partner up with this.

Martha: One of the things I think that has always gotten Jim and I pumped up about what you guys do at Challenge Golf is that you're taking a love that people have and you're being intentional about it.

One of the things that we see so often in life is that christians are living passively and they're going and playing golf, and then they're doing this other Bible study, or they're doing this other thing with other people. And you've married the two and you've said, let's attract the people that already love to play golf that need to hear about the mulligan of life.

And I love that analogy. I love your hearts. So tell us. With this new Bible study and with a fresh spring, and all the things that start up in the springtime, what are you looking for as far as expansion this year?

Ron Potter: That's easy. We're focused on Virginia Tennessee, of course, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina. And we have, we're gonna start chapters in each of those areas because we have contacts there. For example, Wes and I, last month we went to several cities, including Augusta and Jacksonville and Panama City and Birmingham. And in Jacksonville we met with First Baptist Church, 28,000 members.

And the missions director there got really excited about what we're doing. So suddenly there's a potential chapter to be born right there through the church, and again, as Wes says, we're not asking the church for a dime, we're just looking for their golfers to help us begin chapters and we think it'll be organic that way.

It's we'll hear about a church here or there, and they'll hear about us. And like with this podcast, we could get some responses from this podcast from an area that we did not plan to start a chapter this year. But hey, we gotta start a chapter there because they're interested and they've got a group or a church and they wanna help.

Martha: So let's talk about that real quick. I will put some links in the show notes, we'll talk about it off camera of what links to put in there to, for people to contact you because this is going to intrigue some listeners, whether they are retired and looking for that purpose with their golf, or they're still working and want to make more intentionality with the people that they surround themselves with. We've got both avenues. We want to get people activated in that way. So listeners, I will have that. Look for that in the show notes, how you can get ahold of Wes and Ron 3-Putt Potter and get some information of how you can get involved because we get pretty excited about this because it is, it is real life, and we've seen how people have been led to Jesus through it, and so we want people to know about it, which is why we have you on the show today.

Jim: I wanna just, I'm gonna step back for just a say. I wanna step back for just a say, because what I want - just describe, are you having events weekly or monthly?

Wes Kliner: Monthly in each chapter.

Jim: Okay.

Wes Kliner: And they vary. We have three different free events where both believers and unbelievers or unchurched members will partner up and they will golf for free. The Invitational is an event where we take on strictly the servant role as caddies, and it's all unbelievers.

And then we have VIP events. We have a VIP event coming up April 20th at the Old Farm in Bristol, Virginia. And our guests are gonna be Charlie Reimer. Henry Cho, the comedian Henry Cho from Knoxville. I'm sure you all have heard of him or met him in the past. That we're looking real. We're looking forward to - that's where one of the avenues we use for raising money. We're looking for committed business owners and believers who wanna see this ministry expand nationwide.

We're focused regionally because we have a staff now, not just Ron and I, but there are six other gentlemen who are working with us. We have a staff of eight now who are committed full time to seeing chapter expansion, outreach to churches to get em to partner up, fundraisers to go to businesses and seek their support, who want to see the spread of the gospel in a very fertile mission field.

Of all the athletic venues I've ever been on, I have not seen one other than golf that where the Lord's name was mentioned more often than on a golf field. (laughter) unfortunately most of the time, not in a reverent manner. So believe me, it is a fertile mission.

Jim: Amen. Absolutely. I love that. Check 'em out online: challengegolf.org. Challenge Golf org. Ron, as we close out today's show, how many golfers have come to know Jesus because of Challenge Golf in the last several years?

Ron Potter: We've had 261 written decisions for Christ in our last 18 invitationals, and that is phenomenal. We're averaging over 30% written decisions when we do our outreach event. So let's celebrate that together, and thank you guys so much for having us on today.

Wes Kliner: Thank you.

Jim: Yeah, you bet. Challenge Golf. Org. I'm not much of a golfer anymore. My dad kinda wore that out on me, but boy, when you hang out with these guys, golfing is fun. And it's an adventure and now it's your mission. Check it out online. Challenge Golf. Org.

You've been listening to iWork4Him and an iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and apparently our golf course can be a mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

4/29/26 - 2144: Serving Ministries (Behind the Scenes)

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: When you're built to serve, you're built to serve. Any other work position just won't suit you. Some people are perfectly suited by God to assist others in completing their mission from God and their mission becomes the assistant's mission. Look at Joshua. He was the administrative assistant to Moses. Then he took over for Moses. Leah Borg, she supported the founders of Virtual Ministry Assistant for 12 years.

12 years of supporting a vision and a mission that became her own. When the founders decided to retire, Leah was ready to take on the mission of providing the best Virtual Ministry Assistant out there with a team of trained professionals from all over the country. Leah's here today to share her story and tell some amazing stories of faith that have come out of the Virtual Ministry Assistant team, supporting ministries across the globe.

Leah Borg, welcome to iWork4Him.

Leah Borg: Thanks Jim and Martha, it's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Jim: We wanna make sure everybody knows that you are Virtual Ministry Assistant, but your website is ministryassistantservices.com and people, so people will get confused 'cause I really wanna make sure people understand and can find you.

Martha: And we'll have all that in the show notes.

Jim: We will have a lot in show notes. Leah, we always start off every first time guest on our show with this one question, what's your Jesus story?

Leah Borg: I'm glad you asked. It's always nice to share that in this line of work, where we're working with a lot of different ministries. So I grew up in a Christian home. My parents took us to church every week. I think I was there probably the Sunday after I was born because my parents were just very involved in the church and so they took us every week. I heard about Jesus, but it wasn't until I was about five years old that I really heard a revival speaker talk about my personal need for a savior, and I was too scared at that point in my life to go forward during the revival, the altar call, that they had at the at the conference that weekend. But I went home, was able to talk to my parents, and they led me to the Lord and in our house. Our tiny little house in Pensacola, Florida.

Jim: So a lot of times little kid becomes a believer. And it could go two ways. We've interviewed thousands of people. It goes two ways. One, hey, never stepped away from my faith. It just kept growing stronger and stronger. And the other one's yeah, and then I became a teenager and I hightailed away from the church and ran away from Jesus till I was 20 or 30.

What's your story?

Leah Borg: So I would have to say that I just was just little by little growing and growing. I've had moments of doubt, obviously, and rededicated my life several times when I was at camp, that kind of thing. Those times where you're really dedicated in the word. And so I have had moments of doubt, but for the most part, the Lord has been very gracious and has just kept teaching me to trust him and teaching me to be faithful and teaching me. And he's been very faithful to me. So now we're trying to raise our family in the same way and bring them up to know and love him.

Jim: That's awesome.

Martha: That's so good and so encouraging for our listeners to hear and to know that you're now focusing on that next generation in your family.

So how did you first get connected to the founders at the, at your company, which again, we have the link, it'll be ministryassistantservices.com.

Leah Borg: So it's a random connection, actually. About 12 years ago, they were starting Ministry Assistant Services. The passion of Daniel and Haley, the founders, was that they were gonna help pastors, ministry leaders, that were on the edge of burnout. They were seeing that in their own church. They were experiencing that themselves. And so they were trying to figure out, what would the Lord have them to do to help?

And so they started Ministry Assistant Services. And on a whim, my pastor at the time shared on Facebook a link or something to connect with them. And I filled out their little application, sent in my resume. And I didn't even update my resume from college. It was just random stuff. I had done volunteer work and everything, and Haley called me almost immediately and was like, I recognized that you're a military spouse.

I was a military spouse at the time. Her best friend was a military spouse, and she recognized the college that I went to because it was right down the road from her. And so she called me up and I was the first virtual assistant that they ever hired, and the rest they say is history.

Jim: So what was it about their mission that resonated with you enough that it became your mission too?

Leah Borg: The thing that resonated with me was the ability to help small churches, because I've always been in a small church. We're talking like 200 or less. Growing up I was in a 200, about 200 person church. And then my church that my husband and I actually helped to start here in Texas was only about 50 people. Now we're at a church of about 150, so I just live in that world. And I wanted to be able to bless the pastors and the ministry leaders that sometimes they don't even have an office because they're not big enough, the church is not big enough right now.

Our church meets in a recreation center, so the pastor has no office right now. His office is at home. And so just being able to bless churches like that just really resonated with me.

Martha: That's so good. And there are, I don't know if you know the number of churches that are that small, but that is actually the norm across the country. We have so many small towns and so many people that that really resonates with that. It's a great niche.

Jim: So the 330,000 churches in the united States.

Martha: Okay. I wonder how many are 200 or less?

Jim: I would guess 90% of 'em.

Martha: A good majority. A lot of them we always think like there's all these big churches, but there's so many that really fit that. So let's talk about what it was like to manage being a virtual assistant, virtual Ministry Assistant and being a mom and a wife and the volunteer work, whatever. How did you keep all that in check? 'Cause I believe that you are also a coordinator for American Heritage Girls too, right?

Leah Borg: Yes, ma'am. I just started a new position with American Heritage Girls. That's all volunteer work, right? Some days I manage it better than others, I'll be honest with you.

Martha: Oh good. You're normal. (laughter)

Leah Borg: Yes, we're very normal. I like to do a lot of time blocking where I work on this particular project or this ministry or whatever for an hour and then I move on to another one.

And then I do that during the day. The way we homeschool ,'cause I have four children and so we homeschool around the dining room table. They all have their, whatever it is they're working on at the moment. They have their videos that they're working because we do a video school, and so they're all working on that.

I'm sitting at my computer normally, typing out an email of some kind. And so I can stop and help them and then go back to whatever I'm working on. So sometimes my time blocks are five minutes of this and 60 minutes of helping my children, but somehow it all gets done. And I just, I time block.

But I also have a very good support system. And my husband, he definitely needs a shout out because he's actually watching the kids right now for this.

Jim: That's awesome. Then give him a shout out.

Leah Borg: Yes. So my husband, Ryan, he is definitely, he's a great support and he is, every time I come to him with some new project that makes my eyes twinkle, he's okay, let's see how we can make this happen.

 (laughter)

Jim: A project that makes your eyes twinkle. I love that. Alright and just a quick plug in. American Heritage Girls, we haven't talked about them in a long time on this show. That's an alternative to the Girl Scouts. A Jesus centered alternative to the Girl Scouts. Talk about it. How could people get involved?

Leah Borg: So you just go to americanheritagegirls.org and look for a troop near you. I'm actually an area coordinator, and so now I have a bunch of troops that are under me that I support. And that's a new position for me actually, as of the end of last year. But it's a great opportunity and like I said, we have four, four girls and they're all gonna be in it actually next year. We're gonna have all four of them in it, and we enjoy it because it is a Christ-centered option that, that we have.

But it's not just alternative to scouting, it's also building women of character and integrity. And it's such a refreshment from my heart to be surrounded by other moms who have the same goal in mind of raising godly girls and sending them out into the world to make a difference, because we truly believe that we were made for such a time as this.

Jim: Very nice. I had to use the public wifi at an event the other day. That could be a nerve wracking experience for sure. You always wonder who's watching and trying to invade your computer. But I don't have to worry about that because SaferNet is on all my devices. You can eliminate public wifi worry, too, by getting signed up with SaferNet today, online at safernet.com, you'll find that they offer a lot more than just a VPN that keeps it private. They offer antivirus, web filters, and so much more. SaferNet.com.

Leah, you got a master's degree in Teaching and Learning. How did that prepare you for taking over a business? Did you ever imagine yourself a business owner? For 12 years you were a Virtual Ministry Assistant.

Leah Borg: I did not. I didn't see the master's degree coming or the buying our own business coming either. So that was definitely a God thing. A couple years ago, I realized I didn't have a whole lot of education experience. My undergrad is not in education. I took maybe one education class in college. And I was not thinking towards homeschooling my own children. And so my husband and I decided I would go get my master's degree in teaching and learning.

I just finished that up in October of last year. I'm gonna walk in May, so I'm very excited. My little sister who's 12 years younger than me, is also walking with her master's degree too at the same university. That's gonna be exciting for us to be together. But I don't, there was a lot of leadership classes in the teaching and learning grad degree, and I think those prepared me. I was actually surprised that there was leadership classes.

But the grad degree is actually preparing most people for being a principal or a vice principal at a school. And so it makes sense that there would be leadership opportunities for them to learn. But they helped me to, be a better leader because I didn't know. I didn't know when I started the master's degree that the business was coming. So the Lord knew and he was preparing me.

Jim: Technically you're the guidance counselor, vice principal and school superintendent, right?

Leah Borg: That's right. (laughter)

Jim: So for a small private school. Okay. That, so that's good you had all that training.

Martha: That's awesome. I just am curious, like what is the specialty at Ministry Assistant Services?

Leah Borg: I would say the specialty is whatever the pastors and ministry leaders need us to be a specialty in.

Martha: Okay.

Leah Borg: Every time we get a new client, I say we add to our tool belt because that client comes in and they have this new process. They have this new platform. They have this new software, whatever it is that they want us to learn. And so we're just adding to our tool belt. We're just adding all of these tools that we can then present to the next client and say, Hey, yes, we do have, experience in X platform, whatever it is that they need.

And so it just adds to our ability. So I would not say there's any kind of specialty except just serving the clients where they are, doing what they need us to do so that they can have some time freed up for whatever it is that they need to do. If the pastor needs more time for sermon prep or if he just needs to hang out with his family on a Friday night and we can give him back that, that ability to have that time with his family, then that's our specialty.

Jim: So you could say your specialty is adaptability.

Leah Borg: Sure. Flexibility. Flexibility. There you go.

Jim: But have you ever run across a client though that's using a piece of software and you're like, yeah, just so you know, this software's fine. But we've been helping these other ministries use do their thing with this software and it's gonna make save you a ton of money with an investment in this software. Have you ever been able to help them make good decisions about software choices?

Leah Borg: Oh, absolutely. We have been able to advise them and typically we don't like to come in and like first day on the job, say, oh, here pastor, here's something better for you. But if we come in and say, Hey pastor, this is not really working for what you want it to work for, what about this?

And we can advise them once we've gained that trust from them and they, feel like, oh we're a partner with their ministry and trying to help them and support them, not do whatever we wanna do. Like we don't wanna come in with that mentality of we're gonna do whatever we wanna do, right? We wanna serve the pastor in the best possible way.

Martha: Okay, so let's talk about, I'm just gonna divert a little bit 'cause I'm the person that likes to get a picture what it actually looks like. So what does it typically, and I understand there's every variation of this for every church, but what's it typically look like for someone to be a virtual assistant for a pastor?

Like just helping our listeners to wrap their head around that, because maybe right now they're thinking about their pastor and how they're struggling with getting things done in their small church. What can it look like because you just said something about, helping them on a Friday night so that they can, or whatever it is that they're needing. Give us some examples.

Leah Borg: So we can help the pastor get stuff done so he's prepared for a Sunday. That probably is what every virtual assistant is looking towards is the next Sunday. Or maybe the next big task for a client, because we don't just have pastors, we also have ministry clients, we also have missionaries.

So they all need different things and, a typical client, like you said, there's probably not a typical client that I could give you. Just examples of how we can bless the pastor and typically they come to me and they say, Hey, I'm looking for this. And I tell them, yes, we can help you with that.

And a lot of them will ask things like what about personal? Could you schedule personal travel for me? And we can do that, as long as they give us permission to do that, we can help them with that kind of thing. And it's just, the pastor has a meeting with our project managers and says, this is what I need.

And sometimes the pastor comes and says, Hey, we have this process and we have this platform and we know what we wanna do. And sometimes he comes in and says I have no idea, but this is my end goal. Can you help me? And we can sit there and go, okay, this platform could help you with this. This database can help you guys get organized as a church. This database will do your payroll or this database will do your tithe or whatever it is, and then we can help the pastor figure out.

I've told clients before, if you just send me an email and say, Hey, I have no idea how to get this started, we probably can help you because we have so many people that have done this for such a long time that there could be advice to be given to the pastor as well as just the actual doing of the work.

Jim: This is so good. I mean that's part of our story too, which we will get to in a little bit. But it's having somebody that could just help you, 'cause when you are running a ministry and they're doing all the things that we're doing, you just can't get it all done.

You're the owner now, just in January, you became the owner of ministryassistantservices.com. What's gonna change and what's gonna remain the same?

Leah Borg: So the reason why we bought it is because the former owners, really good friends of ours, they just didn't want it to change. They wanted it to have the same passion, the same ministry focus, and so they didn't want a whole lot to change.

So there's little things that have changed to streamline some processes, but they had it set up already really well because they had been doing it, like I said, for about 12 years. So they already had it really well set up and we were able to just come in and say, okay, this needs a little bit of tweaking. This needs a little bit of refinement.

Some of the things that I have to do now, like client meetings, I've written out my own process for that. I've written out my own template for the emails that I'm gonna send out, that kind of thing. And so just streamlining some of those things to make it more efficient. But we try to serve with excellence. We try to serve with efficiency. And that was their goal before we bought it. And so we're just maintaining that now. And the same part is there to serve the pastors, to help them not only administratively, but financially too.

Martha: Okay, just popped in my head. So do you have your own virtual assistant? For you?

Leah Borg: Do I? No. (laughing)

Jim: She's got four. She's got four that live with her.

Leah Borg: That's true. They're helpers.

Jim: That should be their tuition. Helping mom with the business. Come on. I get it.

Leah Borg: They're good little helpers. Whenever I have to have meetings or whatever, they'll be like, okay, mom, what can we get done while you're in your meeting? How long is this meeting gonna be? So they are little helpers. They're good little helpers.

Martha: And I think that's a great example on the on the staffing side of your business, in the sense of people that are listening that say, Hey, I am interested in doing the assisting part. You're a prime example of the fact that, you're homeschooling, you're raising your kids, you're running your, you are running the actual business of all of it but have been a virtual assistant for a long time first. So you've experienced that.

And I think that our listeners, if there's anybody that - I'm guessing you're always looking for more assistants as your clientele grows as well- but there may be somebody that this is intriguing to, and it's not that you have to be locked in a room all day with no life going on around you. I love hearing the flexibility of it, and yet the ability to focus and do all the things that need to get done for the pastor. So that's really great.

Okay. I know this feeling that we all get where we just can't get it all done and my workload never goes away. I always feel like I'm behind the eight ball and I'm only one person and I believe we all have some entitlement to some life outside of our work. So for 13 years, Jim and I have run iWork4Him together.

And we learned really early on, by mistake, that we couldn't do it by ourselves. And we started using a virtual assistant way before COVID hit, and that's why we wanted everyone of our listeners to hear and get to know Leah Borg and Ministry Assistant Services.com. We know that many of the ministry friends out there that are listening need to hear this message and need to know that you guys exist.

So contact Leah and find out how her team can help you. Ministry Assistant Services.com.

Jim: Leah, a lot of our friends listening, as we just mentioned, they're like, ah, they need a ministry assistant, but they think, number one, we could never afford this. And number two, they don't understand how you can hold somebody accountable when they're not in the office right next door. How does this all work?

Leah Borg: So like I mentioned earlier, we try to serve them not only administratively but also financially. So we try to keep our cost as low as we can for the client. And our ministry assistants understand that, and they are happy to jump on board with that mission as well. So we try to keep our costs as low as we can, 'cause like I said, we serve a lot of smaller churches that they don't have huge budgets for administration, especially outside of the church. And so we try to keep that cost down, but the accountability comes when they're able to talk to me if there's anything that they're not getting done from their virtual assistant, if there's anything that's they're not happy with, then they can talk to me.

I know that is one of the things that we have to work on because we are not in the office next to the pastor. So there's a lot of communicating that has to go on from the pastor or the ministry client to us and us to them. Because I always use the example if the pastor gets up on Sunday morning and he gives an announcement and he changes it in the middle of the announcement, we're not sitting in the congregation to write that down and go, oh, pastor changed this announcement. " We are, we're not meeting in the fellowship hall, we're meeting in the gym now." We're not there to make that change. So he has to communicate back to us that, that he made a change.

And so that we can communicate out to the congregation appropriately and not give them that information. So a lot of communication, a lot of phone calls, a lot of email. That's how we stay accountable to our clients.

Martha: That's so good. Okay, so we already talked about it a little bit, putting in a plug for anybody listening, are you actually looking to hire more assistants and what does that process look like?

Leah Borg: So we generally are always looking for good talent, and even if we're not hiring at that current moment, I always keep all of the resumes and stuff that I get in my email because then the next time that we are hiring, I just start working through that list. Hey, are you still looking for a job?

And then after that, after we contact them and say, are you still looking? Then they fill out an application form because I want to see how you respond to questions. How eloquent are you, how communicative are you? Through those, through all those questions that I asked. And then after that we do reference checks to check with some ministry references, somebody that's worked with them in ministry, someone that knows them personally.

So we check with them and then they have an interview call with me because I want to hear them over the phone because our clients are going to hear them on the phone. So there's, I just I get them to communicate with me a couple of different ways before we hire them so I can see how they do written, written out, how they communicate that way. But then also over the phone, how do they communicate? Are they just sitting there and it's dead silence, while I'm supposed to be interviewing them? Do they give me good answers? Is there a lot of interaction?

Because our clients are gonna need that. And then after that, we make a decision on whether or not to hire them. And most of the time we have lots of good talent that comes our way. And most of the time if they get through all three of those steps, the form the questionnaire, and then the reference check, and then the interview call, most of the time, we either hire them right away or we say, Hey, we don't currently have any work for you, but can I keep you on the back burner for next time that something comes down the pipeline?

Jim: I think you should add a fourth step to that one.

Leah Borg: Okay.

Jim: You take that other, I think you should do the - here's the fourth step. You should do the zoom call to see if they've perfected the, I got my hair done and I've got a clean top on, but I still have my jammies on, my slippers, to see if they've perfected the use of video presenting, a positive image, but still being at home and their jammies and slippers.

 (chuckling)

Leah Borg: That's not a bad idea, jim. That's a very good idea.

Jim: There are some, when you look at what happened at first during COVID and then the people who were chronologically superior to us really struggled with, how do I dress for this?

Leah Borg: So I'll tell you, there have been meetings that have been business from the waist up, 'cause I knew that's all they were gonna see. So I won't lie. I've been there.

Jim: Absolutely. So you've worked almost 12 years as a Virtual Ministry Assistant with Ministry Assistant Services.com. I imagine you saw God work in miraculous ways through that position because you're not only working for this person, these people that you're supporting, but you're praying for 'em, you're interacting with 'em. Tell us one time, what's one miracle that really sticks out to you?

Leah Borg: It's a personal miracle. I've had two babies since I started working here. And so just the way the Lord worked out my workload because after my fourth baby I didn't know what I didn't know, and I still had a lot of clients.

But during my maternity leave, 'cause I took, I think I like a month and a half off for maternity leave. And during that time, the Lord took away two of my clients. That might seem like a really bad thing, but at the time, the Lord knew that I couldn't handle having those two clients because they were my two big clients, and they were so apologetic.

We're so sorry, but we found somebody in our church that wants to serve and volunteer. And I was like no, i'm happy for you. I'm very happy for you. I'm glad that someone there is able to use their talents and serve your church. But I did lose a client, but the Lord knew that I couldn't handle that after having more children and homeschooling.

So he, there's been seasons of ebb and flow where he's given clients and he's taken them away and that's just a personal miracle for me. But he's done lots of other miracles too, and, providing for our virtual assistants and giving them what they need in their seasons of life as well.

Martha: That's so good. So I can imagine as an assistant, let alone a virtual assistant, that sometimes it can be a pretty thankless job, but I believe that's not been your experience. Is that right?

Leah Borg: No, I have had so many good opportunities for people to give me a thank you. One of them was that same client that I lost during my maternity leave. They sent me so many baby gifts. They were just, we're so sorry. We're so sorry. Here's a box of diapers, here's a box of wipes. Here's some clothes. They were so sweet, and i've had clients do that for every time I've had a baby. They've sent flowers and things like that.

There's even that personal touch, even though you're, it's a business relationship, there's that personal touch. So there even I can even give you an example. A couple weeks ago there was bad weather, really bad, cold, icy weather here in Texas. And one of our virtual assistants was able to help one of their clients over that weekend.

It was a Sunday morning and they needed to pivot whatever it was they were doing. And the client emailed me that morning, thank you so much. They were so helpful. And they did it on a Sunday morning when they were trying to get to church themselves because they lived in an area that didn't have the bad weather, and so they were still going to church at their regular service time. And so they were just so thankful.

So our clients do reach out and say thank you. We get pretty regularly emails from clients. Thank you so much for this one specific thing that they'll tell me about a virtual assistant that they work with, and I'm always happy to pass that on to whichever virtual assistant it is.

Martha: Yeah. Oh, that's so good. So any final words of encouragement to virtual assistants everywhere that might be living out their faith and serving in some sort of an adopted mission that they're on? What's your encouragement?

Leah Borg: I would just say keep doing what you're doing because the Lord sees it. It might not be seen by man, but the Lord sees it and he will bless it. And like I said, with my miracle, the ebb and flow of how the Lord has planned out different things, he's doing that in everyone's life, even the behind the scenes stuff that, some of this, like you said, some of it is behind the scenes, some of it is thankless.

Some people don't see it and they don't appreciate it. Or you only get the emails when you know something goes wrong. But just keep being faithful. Keep serving with excellence and the Lord knows and he will reward.

Martha: That's so good.

Jim: That's awesome. Leah Borg, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today. Leah Borg with Ministry Assistance services.com. Check her out. If you are needing some assistance, she can help you out. Leah, thank you.

Leah Borg: Thank you so much for having me, Jim and Martha. It was great to meet you guys in person.

Jim: Yeah, you bet. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers in our workplace. It's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

4/22/26 - 2143: Building Bold Businesses in Minnesota

Jim: This is iWork4Him, where Faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Holly Misener lives and loves Minnesota. She also loves business, but more than anything else, she loves Jesus. How do you put all that love into one place and make an immediate difference? You launch the Minnesota Christian Chamber of Commerce. That's what you do as you.

Read in Esther, and as you read in Esther, Holly Misener was chosen for such a time as this. Minnesota isn't the same Minnesota I left 23 years ago. Minnesota has lacked ethical and moral leadership for decades and since Minnesotans aren't much for facing conflict, and it's certainly not doing conflict face on, Minnesota is in trouble. But God knew all this was coming, and for the last two decades, the rise of discipleship of Jesus following workplace believers has grown exponentially. Holly Misener felt the call of God to launch the Minnesota Christian Chamber of Commerce to take that encouragement of marketplace believers out into the open and formally take on the enemy who's trying to destroy her state.

Who knows, maybe you'll one day see Holly Misener running for governor. All kidding aside, but not really kidding, Holly Misener is on a mission in the marketplace where everyone plays. It's just that her marketplace is in Minnesota and it's now a spiritual war zone. Holly's here to share the battle stories and to celebrate all that God's doing in the frozen tundra of Minnesota. Holly, welcome to iWork4Him.

Holly Misener: Oh, thank you so much. I am excited to talk with you today, all about Minnesota and Jesus. Let's go.

Jim: Okay, so start off, every first time guest on this show always shares their Jesus story. Holly, why did you decide to follow Jesus?

Holly Misener: I said yes to Jesus, I was five years old, one of those that started out that way. Mom said, do you wanna know Jesus? I said, absolutely, said yes. Hold on, my friends. And then of course, fell away from the Lord in my twenties and have that typical story of finding myself in college and said, okay, I cannot do this on my own. I need help. I'm making my life a wreck. So I said yes to Jesus.

Fully surrendered my life in college, gave him my all, was on fire for him a hundred percent. But really to be honest, I'm so glad I said yes to Him in my twenties. I really got my foundations met. I really knew my theology. I went to a Bible college and got hit with a lot of hard things with my kids' medical and health issues, and so Jesus, to get through my kids' health journeys, very life threatening for about 10 years, Jesus was my everything.

So I said yes as a little girl. I really surrendered in college and I learned what it really means to give Jesus my everything when my kids went through their serious health issues. So now my children are doing well. Their health issues are stabilized, and I do have a daughter who is disabled, but she just loves Jesus as well. And so now I have new assignment from the Lord and new passions that I'm running after.

Jim: We like to say that those kids who, the people like to call 'em disabled, but they're really specially abled.

Holly Misener: Oh, she is.

Jim: That's right.

Holly Misener: She's a joy.

Jim: That's right. That's right. Yeah. So you went to a Bible school. Which Bible school did you go to?

Holly Misener: Good old Bethel.

Jim: Bethel.

Holly Misener: Bethel, yep.

Jim: Yeah. And Bethel College is one of those ones that's now University of Bethel, isn't it now? Or Bethel University. Again, those universities in Minnesota just need to go just a little bit deeper in their faith.

But one of those colleges that, I looked at it for seminary. I actually enrolled to Bethel Seminary and God said, nah, you can't handle having 400 bosses, so you're not gonna be a pastor for a local church. Alright, so why did you launch the Minnesota Christian Chamber of Commerce?

Holly Misener: I briefly mentioned that I had kids who had a lot of really serious medical and health issues, so my passion once they got healthy was to really help other people walk through health issues.

So I opened up a business. And I grew from a family of entrepreneurs. My dad is a entrepreneur. He owns a manufacturing company. And I always was that kind of, while I was raising my kids, that entrepreneur at heart, doing the stay at home business kind of things. And so now my kids are off in college and doing things, I opened up a wellness clinic.

So the name of my clinic is called His Healing House. And we help people in their, whatever their health issues are, whether they have digestion issues, brain fog, all the things. And I thought when I started the company that I was gonna keep my faith on the down low. I believed that idea you can't really talk about your faith in your business, it'll affect the bottom line. And so I figured the name of the company, His Healing House, if you knew who's "His," it's Jesus. It's His Healing House. And I knew right away the non-Christians would be like, what is that? Because I'm a female.

But the Christians always knew. That's as far as I thought I would take my faith in the workplace. But before I knew it, I fundamentally believe that Jesus is the ultimate healer. So here I have clients coming in all the time looking for physical healing, but they truly need spiritual healing and they need Jesus.

And so as I developed relationships with clients and was, and just would ask, can I say a blessing for you? Can I pray for you? My not so subtle, I'm a Christian business owner turned into a reputation of the girl who loves Jesus and will pray for you. And all of a sudden, people were getting healed left and right in my clinic.

And my, my reputation for loving Jesus just flowed. So as I built my business and realized i'm not gonna do the way "I'm supposed to do it." I'm just gonna love Jesus, respect and honor people in front of me, and just see what happens. My business flourished, but I realized in Minnesota, other business owners need permission to do that.

And because I was doing that in my own business, when I got presented with the opportunity to - I met Mina Carlson, is the vice president of the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, and I met her here. She's from Minnesota, and she said something about this Christian chamber, and I'm a business owner, so I do networking, I do all the things.

And I said, why don't we have one in Minnesota? And she said we're just waiting for the right person. And you know how the Lord tells you something? And you're like, uh oh. And so I said, oh, I'll pray on that, which really meant, I knew I was supposed to, but I'll pray on it.

Jim: Hoping that God would just tell you no.

Holly Misener: Yeah. That's what you're hoping. And he didn't, and so I said yes. I was like, okay, I think I need to do this. Now the interesting thing is that, my business is in startup phase as well, and so I really wasn't sure if I had the capacity to start the chamber plus keep my business going.

But I felt the Lord, this was a year ago, very much saying, you need to do this for, it's for such a time as this. I would have no idea what is gonna happen in Minnesota within the last few months. But I, the Lord knew. And so we launched last October, officially the Minnesota Christian Chamber of Commerce.

Jim: So very exciting, 'cause of all the places, those of you listening that don't know anything about Minnesota, you gotta go. It's a great place. And all I know on the news, it doesn't really sound like a great place. There's some political issues, seriously political issues there, but it's a incredible state.

Not only does it have 10,000 plus lakes, 20,000 plus ponds. It's got really neat people with great traditions. Weird food. Don't try the lutefisk. Don't. Don't even try it. Let it go. Just say, I'm good.

Holly Misener: Yeah.

Jim: Holly, the state of things in Minnesota seem to get dictated by the state of things in Minneapolis and St. Paul. And the really, the nine County Metro, they call it the seven County Metro, but it became nine county Metro 25 years back. What's the reality of the marketplace in the nine county, Twin city metro?

Holly Misener: It's been fascinating because there's hunger here. Every great thing has usually comes out of suffering. And so when the Lord said, Holly, you're gonna start the chamber. You need to do it. I held back for probably eight months, and then someone else came in " you have to start this now." So I started in October and then January hit, and yet, if you don't know, if you haven't watched the national news, a lot of things came out in Minnesota.

And really out of all of that, christian business owners, we need to unite. But now I don't have to tell them. They're seeing for themselves. 'cause if we don't unite, we're gonna get buried 'cause there just really is too much. And that excites me because oftentimes out of suffering, out of oppression, out of hardship is really when all of a sudden there's, the chaff gets blown away and the seed rises and we are ready for it to go.

Jim: Again, another farming reference, which if you've never seen them separate wheat from the chaff, you just gotta watch them harvest those fields in July and August. It's fantastic.

Holly, the reality is though, it's not only the business owners need to unite, we need to get Christian business owners, people following Jesus who own businesses to run for city council, to run for mayor, to run for Lieutenant Governor, attorney General, for governor, for crying out loud.

I won't say anything, but I'm pretty sure you could find somebody with a little more ethics and morality than your current slate of candidates. What's it gonna take for Christian business people to say, I've had enough.

Holly Misener: I don't know exactly. What I do know is what they need to do. We need to stop this lie that we need to keep our faith on Sunday morning and not bring it into the marketplace.

We need to stop this lie that says, oh my gosh, if I'm bold about my faith, i'm gonna either lose revenue or not be seen or not be respected. I don't think so. We are in a different world and people are hungry for the real and the truth. And so what we need to do is have wisdom and not be weird, but we can just have wisdom and bring our faith in entirely.

And I feel like that's what I wanna do in the chamber is empower people that you can run a business and be overtly faith-based. You can run a business and have people, maybe different communities that I don't agree with or maybe different beliefs or maybe lifestyles, all those things I see. And what I fundamentally do is show them Jesus, love them, but I hold firm. I don't hide my faith in order to love people.

And so I think that with the Chamber specifically, my role is to give people permission that you can be bold and we don't have to walk that same thing of saying, oh, we can't, we have to separate that. And then I think you're exactly right. We need to empower. If we really wanna make change, you start local, you start in your small government, school boards, your things, and you bring your wisdom and faith and integrity there. And I think the more I have talked about Jesus in my faith with honor and respect, not pushy, but people are actually very open to it. So that's what I think.

Jim: Absoluately. People want truth.There's no question about that. And I love that answer because the first thing people need to do is to realize that the other 167 is the most significant hours of our lives. We go to a church an hour on Sunday, but the other 167 is where our faith is supposed to be lived out. And too many of us have been told you just need to leave your faith at the door. You don't wanna offend anybody.

Guess what? Most other religions wanna be offensive. Why can't we just tell the truth? Because our truth, Jesus said, people will be offended, your brothers, your mothers, your sisters. But people also need the truth and it's amazing. I started learning how to pray in the marketplace, probably, I dunno, sometime 2010, 2011. I've prayed with thousands of people. Over at Panera, over a mountain dew or a cup of coffee at a Starbucks, which I try to avoid those, but over lunches all across the country, I prayed with people because people are hurting and when they share their story, they love that we'll pray for them.

Holly Misener: Are they offended? Do you find them offended when you ask?

Jim: No, because I always ask permission. I've prayed with, I've prayed with Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Jews, atheists, agnostics, and I always say, Hey, thanks for sharing that. Can I pray with you about that right now?

Holly Misener: Yeah.

Jim: And never has anybody told me no.

Holly, Minnesota's a big state. If you start off in the southeastern corner and you drive all the way up to the Northwestern corner, it'd take you 10 hours or more at a pretty good clip. That's a lot of territory to cover and you got a lot of different cultures from the International Falls culture to the North Dakota on the Edge Moorhead culture way to the Iron Range culture on the shores of Lake Superior Way to the Western where the wind never stops blowing in Fairmont, Minnesota, way down to the Mississippi River Valley. Talk about a state!

How are you going to take the goodness of the Minnesota Christian Chamber and spread it across the state in an encouragement to people in small towns? Minnesota's got a lot of small towns. How are you gonna, how are you gonna spread that across the state?

Holly Misener: This is what I think, Minnesota's a very key state for a lot of reasons, and we are positioned right dead center in the top, north center of the nation. And I think that is more than just like our placement geographically, but I think that we are a key state for the nation. And so I know that our, my personal mission is to impact the entire state of Minnesota. And so how I'm gonna do that, I think God's gonna do it. I think God is gonna raise up leaders.

I think we are gonna start and we are gonna multiply and we are gonna expand the territory, span the 10 pigs because people are hungry for real. They're hungry for truth, they're hungry for Jesus. We're coming out of this place of continually, the oppression of Minnesota, politically, all of the things.

And so people are raising up. And so I think there just needs to be leadership at the helm, that there are more leaders, not just me, but there's a team of people around me that we're gonna raise up and then we're gonna expand one by one and we're gonna take over Minnesota. And guess what? I'll take over Minnesota, but then we will impact the nation.

And I don't, I am not giving up on the nation. I am not gonna give up on the US. I am not gonna give up on Minnesota. I love my state. I'm placed here. You cannot pray for a state you don't love. I love Minnesota. I see wounds that she has. I see sin that she's living in, but I have no doubt in my mind that God's heart is still for Minnesota, that he weeps for the things in the sin that's here in Minnesota, and that it's just gonna be a ripple effect of transformation. And I'm excited about it.

Jim: Love that. I love that. And people don't realize that Minnesota is actually the tech center for all medical devices in the world, between Boston Scientific and the Medtronic - Minnesota, that's, it's the headquarters for that stuff. And it's also the headquarters of 3M, which everybody knows 3M. Everybody's had post-it notes, so we all, and they've made a few other things besides Post-it notes.

All right. I wanna give a little plug here to our sponsor, but Holly I'm really I'm excited to take this a little deeper, so hang on just a quick second. One thing that really gets us off track from our purpose is problems with our computers, our devices that's caused by a virus or an intruder, or somebody just trying to do something sideways to us.

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Alright, Holly, what's your main focus at the Minnesota Christian Chamber of Commerce? You're just launching, you only launched six months ago. What is your main focus?

Holly Misener: I really do wanna empower business leaders that are rooted in the word of God, carrying the heart of God, and following the Holy Spirit to lead us. He is the ultimate leader. I tell people all the time, Jesus is the best politician, the best governor, the best doctor, the best realtor, the best everything. And when we follow his leadership and we lead our businesses and our communities in this sphere of influence that God is entrusted with us, we're gonna do way more.

So some people have a small sphere of influence. We need to empower them. Some people have a bigger or a governmental, we need to empower them and back them up for the assignment God has for them.

Jim: But what does that look like? Gimme the practical. What's that look like to empower?

Holly Misener: So we're getting people together, we're building vision, and then we do the day-to-day, we do the networking groups. We're praying, we have a prayer team and intercession. Do you know how many people have not surrendered their business to the Lord?

Jim: Most of them.

Holly Misener: I know.

Jim: Maybe that was a question you didn't expect the answer, but it's 95% of believers don't realize that God has anything to do with business. Most of 'em been taught that business is a necessary evil instead of the fact that our savior grew up in a family of a small business owner. Yeah, we gotta look at it, but Christians just don't realize God gave us business to minister to the world, to solve the problems of the world, not to get rich and not to collect it all for ourselves, but to be a blessing and a pipeline to flow through to others. Okay. Sorry, this is your show.

Holly Misener: Yeah, we could go off, but honestly though, I really believe that Christian business owners should be financially stable. We should not have to go somewhere else. We should be the ones living on a generosity, right? And we're the ones who are stewarding our businesses by God, when then he's blessing them and financially, and we are living where we are not running after the status of money, but that we're living in generosity.

So practically we just gotta get, we gotta network together. We gotta do business together. We gotta pass money back and forth to each other. We gotta be aligned. We need to be in community so that we are emboldened to walk out these principles that we are given by the Lord and not be just on an island all by ourself. We will drown in Minnesota if we are island Christians, island business owners. But we're gonna unite. We're gonna come together, and we really are gonna impact the state of Minnesota.

Jim: Will that drowning be in the deep lakes up there in the Mississippi River Valley of northern Minnesota will be in the peat bogs in southwestern Minnesota? (chuckling) But that drowning can happen. Literally we need to understand that our faith will transform our business. 'Cause it's not about the, just about the revenue. How about the impact on your employees? When you dedicate your business to the Lord, you become the pastor of your small church, whatever that business is called, and those employees become your mission field.

Don't just go hiring a bunch of people and say they're believers. Hire people that need to meet Jesus and minister to those people on a daily basis. At the same time you're providing food and shelter for them. That's the incredible mission of a business person. You get a chance to do so much ministry. Alright, so what do you think some of the challenges are that you're gonna face in growing the Minnesota Christian Chamber?

Holly Misener: Right now at the moment, we have a lot of momentum and excitement 'cause people are hungry. I think that people wanna come together. I think that we're creating a community like what I've talked about, and people are ready.

The biggest challenges, honestly, is just breaking this lie that we have to keep keep our faith private. I just don't think so. I think we learn in wisdom, we walk in wisdom. We're not weird, we're not pushy, we're not, but Jesus wasn't any of those things either. So I think as we bring our faith in the way that each person feels called into the marketplace, and as you said, we minister to our employees, we minister to our clients, we minister to vendors, we minister to those meaning we love them, we show up with integrity, we are financially responsible and generous.

Do you know if Christians were the most generous people, how actually the testimony of who we are would probably impact more people than what we said? And so I just think as we show up that way, we're gonna impact more people. And so it's just getting people out of keeping their faith at home.

Jim: It's not just generosity, it's also, Hey, how about pay your bills on time? How about don't, if somebody gives you 30 days, pay the bill when you owe it. Don't stretch 'em out to 60 or 90 days. As believers, everything about us should be different than the world. We should be setting those standards and it should be impacting everybody around us, whether they believe in Jesus or not. Everybody that does business with us, whether they're vendors or whether they're customers, should realize that when they do business with us, it just feels different.

They're not sure why. But it feels different. Holly, one of the events that Martha and I are involved in this year is the Faith at Work Summit this coming up in June in Cincinnati. I don't know if you heard about this yet. We wanna invite everybody in the audience to come check it out.

It is a gathering of faith and work ministries and people involved in the faith and work movement. People that are discipling people in the workplace, people that are just workplace believers that wanna know what does this look like all happening at the Faith and Work Summit in Cincinnati, June 17th to the 19th. Check it out online at faithatworksummit2026.org.

Holly Misener: I'll be there.

Jim: You're gonna be there? So we're gonna get to meet each other face to face. Nice. I love that. All right. Fantastic. All right. I look forward to seeing you there.

So what are some of the victories you've already seen at the Minnesota Christian Chamber? What are some of the things that you've, " oh God, you did that."

Holly Misener: Yeah I'm a little humbled by the way, right away. The Lord is, he knows what he's doing, but some of the victories, honestly, are just the people that we're getting, we're already impacting. Amazing companies we're already impacting, amazing team to be able to walk out some of the small day-to-day things that business owners need, that prayer for their business and networking, all those kind of things.

But that we're also having amazing events that have such momentum where we are, we're living the gospel. I feel like we're actually even doing marketplace ministry in the chamber. Like we're living it out. We had one lady come in and be like, this just feels like my people. This could be my church. I'm like, yeah, let's just live life together, build businesses and impact Minnesota. So those are some of the victories, just the quick growth. We are growing and had a lot of growth right away. And yeah. I'm just excited. I know this year is gonna be a key year for what we're gonna be doing.

Jim: So you're running your own business, you're running the Minnesota Christian Chamber of Commerce. You got people on your teams, but you're also a mom, a wife. How do you make sure that the business and the business or the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, the both of them, don't interfere with your role as mom and wife?

Holly Misener: You know what? I am a firm believer on Sabbath-ing, that I do not work on Sunday. If I work on Sunday, it's just a mental check. Who's got my business? Do I really need to be there? 'cause I think Jesus will be fine. So I really do not work on Sundays and just spend time with my family and get filled up in the things. I also really believe, if we as leaders, we are not taking care of ourselves and our families first, we are no good to the places that we're at.

And so if I go and try to build amazing business in an amazing chamber or ministry, and my family's falling apart, I have lost. So my first sphere of influence is my family, and then I protect that by having a Sabbath and doing things with them. And then from there, then I love building businesses and doing everything, and I just run with it.

Jim: Oh, I love that. And I love your heart. You're making such an impact everywhere you go. What do you think is the next big thing, 2026, for the Minnesota Christian Chamber of Commerce as we finish up our conversation today?

Holly Misener: What do I think the next big thing is for 2026?

Jim: Yeah. And you've got, you got eight months left. If you could accomplish it by the end of the year, this is what you wanna accomplish.

Holly Misener: I have some goals in my mind. I just really wanna impact Minnesota and I cannot impact Minnesota as one person. So when I think about this, you are right, I wanna cover every sphere. I wanna go from the top to the iron range. And I do want this to spread out. So if we can double the amount of chapters that we're local, that we're meeting the local needs for each place. 'cause you're right, Duluth is different than Minneapolis. I'm gonna feel like, okay, Lord, that you are not only seeing the big picture, the state, but you're taking care of each person in their communities.

Jim: That's fabulous. I love that. And, I wanna make sure that I capture your heart in this interview. And I think we have. We didn't talk before this interview, but you've got a heart for Minnesota and you really wanna see believers in the marketplace who are running businesses, involved in business, have an opportunity to get built up in their faith. People wanna check you out. Where's the best place for them to go?

Holly Misener: Minnesota Christian chamber.org, but it's mnchristianchamber.org. Come check us out. We have a lot of events popping up. We do three or four events a month. And so find an event that you, that fits where you're at. I wanna meet you. I wanna meet you. I wanna shake your hand. I wanna say hi. And get an event, get plugged in, and more importantly, join our mission. I cannot do this alone. Join the mission. Let's impact Minnesota.

I don't want three years from now, people hear I'm from Minnesota and cringe. I want people to say, oh gosh, you're from Minnesota. Were you a part of that change? And that's what I'm running after.

Jim: I love that. Holly Misener, thanks so much for being on iWork4Him today. Thanks for running and stepping forward to take on the Minnesota Christian Chamber and our hope is next year when we check back with you, things have gone all over the state and the impact's already being felt. Holly Misener, thanks so much for being on iWork4Him today.

Holly Misener: Awesome. Thank you.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. I'm a Christ follower. My workplace it's my mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

4/15/26 - 2142: Leading with Faith in Small-Town America

Jim: This is iWork4Him where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

On April 15th, 2013, the iWork4Him radio show and podcast launched in Tampa Bay and around the world. Since that time, we've recorded over 3000 podcasts under several different names. At today's show, for iWork4Him is 2142. In these last 13 years, we've interviewed people from all over the world and captured what it looks like for them to live out their faith in their work. What an honor it's been to steward these faith stories and today is no different. Today we head off to a small town in eastern Oklahoma.

Wilburton, Oklahoma, where Loran Mayes has been the mayor for three years living out her faith in an elected office, and it's a place where her faith is tested and stretched, but where the wisdom of God has helped her bRing positive transformation to her city. How it's working for Loran? Let's find out right now from her story and how her faith is impacting Wilburton, Oklahoma. Loran Mayes, welcome to iWork4Him.

Loran Mayes: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Jim: It's an honor. Loran, we always ask this question of every first time guest on iWork4Him. How did you come to be a follower of Jesus?

Loran Mayes: Now, when you sent me that question I went back to many places in my life. I grew up in the church. I lived at a church camp. I worked at a church camp. I was a youth pastor, and then I found that my faith wasn't my own. And so I remember being on my floor in my living room at just what felt like the end of a rope. And I distinctly remember saying, I need this to become mine. It wasn't my parents' faith anymore. It wasn't my church's faith anymore. It wasn't the church camp faith anymore.

I needed something that was real and that was mine. And that was in my early twenties after I had kids. And I just didn't know what I was doing anymore. And so I just needed it to become mine and it was raw and it wasn't perfect. But I knew it was a true Holy Spirit moment on that, on my floor, in my living room, on Altus Air Force Base, actually is where we lived. And so that's how that happened. And I go back to that place on that living room floor more and more as I go on this venture that I'm on. And we'll, I know we'll talk more about that and just remember what that moment was like, when I felt like it had finally become mine.

Jim: It's so true how you go back to that moment and " wow, that was a turning point. That's when my life turned right side up." So how long have you lived in Wilburton, Oklahoma?

Loran Mayes: So we moved to this area in 2019, right before 2020, the epidemic hit and I was the park manager at Roberts Cape State Park. I just felt my temperature rise right when I said that. (laughing) It was something that I didn't know what I was doing at the time. I had never been a park manager. And when all of that hit, I was scared of like my first summer as a park manager, and then COVID hit and God was like, "don't worry about summer. This will be way more than that."

But we have lived here since 2019. And then I was, we were out at - we lived, actually lived at the park. Just five miles north of here for a couple of years and then moved into town.

Jim: So you're the mayor of Wilburton, Oklahoma. What riled you up enough to get you to run for office? 'Cause you only moved there in 2019. It's only 2026. You've been mayor for three years. You only moved into town a couple years. Okay, like you moved into town, you're like, holy smokes, things gotta change here.

Loran Mayes: I'm careful with the word "change." Because there was something that brought us here.

Jim: Okay.

Loran Mayes: And something that enveloped our family. We became a Lion's Club member. And we, my family, we all got COVID at the same time. And we were at the park and every single day on our front porch, something was there for us. It might have been fresh eggs one day. It was a bouquet of flowers one day. It was something for the kids one day. It was community on my front porch every day. And it was all of these signs when it was scary. We just didn't know a lot then at that point in time. It was early on in the whole thing and all we felt was comfort and love.

My child, before we moved here, screamed and cried a lot, every single day when we go to school. We got here, day two, she never cried again. So there was something here telling us that we were where we were supposed to be. And so I'm very careful about the word "change" because I didn't wanna change where we were, but I wanted them to see and feel what we saw and felt about this place and about the community that was here, and find those places.

We heard a lot "it's good enough for Wilburton." That wasn't a positive statement, right? That was like, eh, it's good enough. That was like a minimum standard. And I really wanna ask the question, "is it good enough for Wilburton?" And really raise that expectation of what the people here deserve, the life that you can lead here. And you don't have to leave to make it.

You can and you can come home and there's a lot of great people that have done that. But I wanted the kids here when they grow up and they look back to be like, that is where I grew up. And have this sense of care and community and family. So some things had to improve and some things needed to happen but not necessarily change the heart of what Wilburton was. I am a little bit careful with that word.

Jim: Great correction. I appreciate the correction 'cause it is true.

Loran Mayes: Yeah. No, you're fine.

Jim: You saw something about the town where you were living and you wanted to help the people that have been living there forever to see the forest and the trees.

Loran Mayes: Yes.

Jim: And they were having a hard time seeing the trees and they were only seeing the forest and they were struggling.

Loran Mayes: Yeah. And I think we do that. I think we forget, like we get used to something and we don't see it anymore. You get used to the mess. You get used to things that aren't great. You get used to whatever that is, and you just forget to see it.

And if you can step back and see it from someone else's perspective and be like, oh my gosh, this is so amazing. And people are like, wait a minute. It is? And you're like, yes. Like it's great. And it just changes that perspective and pride of place, I think.

Jim: When you told your family, I'm gonna run for mayor, how did they feel about it?

Loran Mayes: Not excited at all. Now you have to remember, I just moved him. Him and I both grew up on the west side of Oklahoma and he just committed to this huge move across the state for me to get my dream job, which was the park manager job. So he had already committed to a life change and moved our entire family, went through COVID by ourselves over here, he had already done all of this.

So when I go to him next with, Hey, remember I was gonna take a step back? (laugh) that's what I said, oh, I'm gonna take a step back and step out of state government because it was a state park and I'm gonna take a break. Then I'm like, I'm gonna run for mayor. And he's just oh my word.

It was rough. My kids, more so, I think paid a price than my husband. 'cause my husband doesn't really work in town and he kinda stays unplugged, and that's something I'll talk about in a little bit. But my kids were in school every day with the kids of the people that weren't real happy about me running for mayor.

There was some things that happened at the state park duRing my time there. It wasn't my fault. We have to pay at our state parks now. The restaurant closed down. There's all these things that when you're the park manager or you're the boss, right, it's your responsibility. And whether you said it or not, that's gonna be on your record. So there were some people that really had a lot of issues with that. And so my kids, I feel paid a bigger price for that. So they weren't super excited about it, but they wore their shirt proudly that their mom was running for mayor.

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Loran running for mayor... as believers, we run for office, we don't get to be like others. We've got to run a campaign like Jesus would run a campaign. So he's not gonna slander anybody. He's not gonna tell anybody - he's not gonna point out all their faults 'cause he never did that. The focus has gotta be on our message and moving forward. How hard was it to run a clean campaign for office?

Loran Mayes: It is difficult. I've never been denied by a Ring camera more in my life. The invention of Ring camera when knocking doors changed everything 'cause they would deny and be like, no thank you. Done. Not even open a door.

So you felt very, I felt very vulnerable. I had to overcome some of the preconceived opinions or notions from my time at the state park and what happened there. I'm not from here like we already just described. I tried to make those things positive so we didn't have generational issues with other families or people. Hopefully that would help with favoRing anyone, 'cause we didn't have those connections, from family connections.

Lots of tears, I'll admit that. Lots of tears, lots of frustration, loneliness in a way that I had not felt before. And you're out putting out signs, you're knocking doors, you're walking, you are sitting at a coffee. I would make times available, so knocking doors was not successful for me mainly because of Ring doorbells and busy schedules and I was working full-time and trying to run a campaign and so I would set up times where I'd sit at the coffee shop, like at five in the morning and be there for a couple of hours.

Sometimes you're sitting there by yourself and nobody really cares to talk to you during that time. People wanna avoid you because you're running for office and they don't wanna hear it that day. The hardest place to be was the grocery store. It still is. People will block you in that meat department and you cannot get out and they have a million questions and people almost line up to talk to you at the grocery store.

And so that has been, it was so eye-opening. But the one thing that I try to remember and that I still try to remember is what it's like to be a citizen that's not in a place of perceived power, right? I still think citizens have more power than they understand. And we're trying to help with that. But what is it like to be on the other side and to want to be heard, to assume they're out to get you because of past, whatever you're used to is what you're going to expect. And so how do you change that? How do you work on that without getting offended and tired and upset and defensive?

And it wasn't perfect. It wasn't something I did perfectly. I worked really hard. I would try to save the tears when I was at home alone. But there were just some times you just, you have to walk away and take a breath.

Jim: So you've been the mayor of your city, Wilburton, Oklahoma, for three years. A believer at the helm where you have spiritual authority over that city. How good has having a believer at the helm of your city been for your city?

Loran Mayes: So I get a lot of "it feels alive again" comments. And we haven't done anything drastic. We haven't made any major moves. But there has been the comment over and over again. It feels different. It feels alive. We have people getting involved again.

We have families that have moved home, people that grew up here move home and jump in. People that have felt empowered to help. It feels like the right place at the right time. We have, we've talked a little bit about my, I brought my book so you could see it. Some of the things that I look to - I want to lead in a way that I don't have to only say that I'm a believer. I want to lead in a way that, we have a lady here, her name is Dr. AJ Griffin, that leads a foundation that focuses on families and kids, specifically under the age of five. And she tells me all the time, it's my job to create the environment where the right things are easier.

Jim: Oh, yes. Say that again. I'm gonna, can I use that as a campaign slogan?

Loran Mayes: It's so good. And that's always her answer. It is your job to create the environment where the right things are easy. So I was struggling a lot with having to do everything and I think we get that way in any job, in any role in our life, we get that "I have to do it all." No, you don't. No, you don't. It's more important for me to create an environment where citizens and staff feel empowered and welcome to do the right thing, but also where the wrong thing is not gonna be good. It's not gonna be easy to do the wrong thing. It's not gonna be easy to traffick our children.

It's not gonna be easy to bring down conversations. It's not going to be easy for you to block what other people are doing. Create that environment where the right things are easy and so that it releases a lot of pressure. You do have to trust that God is already there. Have you seen those asphalt trains? Where it's like all the equipment in the line and it comes in, it destroys the road, it puts it back through heat. All of this pressure relays the road and then it's good.

And in my mind, when God goes before me and he paves the way, that is what I see. And I just think about like sometimes it feels like an absolute disaster is happening and these past two weeks have been, that it just feels like things are crumbling. And I just kept seeing over and over again the asphalt train. 'cause I always think God goes before me and paves the way. What do I mean by that? And am I actually living the way that I am believing that? Truly?

And I just kept seeing the asphalt train that it has to crumble. It has to be messed up, it has to be terrible. It has to go through heat and pressure that is not comfortable and it's really hard, and then the road is laid. Then you could drive on it. And so it wasn't just, he's gonna go and it's gonna be super easy and he just lays some asphalt and you're ready to go. There's going to be that breaking up and that reheating and that relay.

Jim: Yeah, 'cause if you just lay asphalt on top of the potholes, you just get more potholes. You have to, yeah, you have to take up that layer, which is painful. But, so you've had to make some tough decisions, I imagine, in three years and probably utilize your faith to make those decisions in a way you probably never anticipated, seeking at the throne room of God for those. How has your faith impacted your decision making ability? I don't know how best to put that because you're accessing questions you never imagined you would ask.

Loran Mayes: Yes. You run a campaign on who you are and who you're going to be. And then you realize it has nothing to do with you. And that's hard. It's not just me. So when I lead the city, it has to be less about me and more about the city. It has to be less about me and more about - I pray a lot. That's what I was writing whenever we got on, 'cause I talk a lot about Goshen and Nehemiah and I have the verses written down, but then I was like, I have the verses written down, but we don't always remember what those verses say.

But Nehemiah always interests me because he went to action by organizing people. So he used his faith to put into action of organizing people. And so I'm doing that. We're starting a ward initiative to where we're gonna organize people and empower them because of the story that it tells us about Nehemiah and how that brought back what had been destroyed.

Courage and action. Goshen, talking about drawing near to God. There was stories, all of these towns, it was great. They were blessed. It was wonderful. Oh, wasn't so great for a little while, and they drawed near to God and then moved forward. So sometimes it's just, I need to get my priorities straight and pray about it.

My daughter, now, anytime she sees something happening, she said, let me guess, it's in your book. And I said, yes, we've been praying about that. And God can bring in people that you never knew were could come in. He can empower someone that you never saw coming and he can do things when it seems like nothing can be done.

Jim: Let me ask a question I didn't tell you I was gonna ask. What's the biggest thing that God has done to surprise you in the last three years?

Loran Mayes: He has taken me further than I ever thought I could go. I now can walk into the Capitol, Oklahoma City, our state capitol, and I go for legislative season. And every room I walk into, they know Wilburton. They know who I am, not by my name. Usually it's "Wilburton" when they point at me. He has taken me places I never thought we could go.

Most people think a little town, 3000 people, rural Oklahoma, you can't make a stand. And he is proving that different. And so it, of all the things, when it feels like it's a terrible day, you just have to remember where he's taken you before. And so that's been the biggest surprise for me. I thought I'd come in and just run some parks and rec and we'd make some water decisions. But we're making a difference, like across the region. We're making a difference across the state.

Our little town is being seen in ways and places it never could have dreamed of. And that's not me. That's God going before us. So that's been really surprising. We landed this amazing contract with the state to be able to empower people to go to work. And it's like a barrier breakdown. And we are pushing out hundreds of people a year that did not have a job, that weren't equipped to go out, and now they're doing it.

And that was all - it wasn't me. I wrote the contract request, right? But God paves those ways and brought a building that's impacting work being done in South Africa by a doctor that was from here. And it just starts connecting, and it's like this snowball effect that you can never see coming.

Jim: That's exciting. I love that. I wanna talk about conflict here in a second, but I wanna make sure everybody knows about the upcoming US Christian Chamber event in Orlando next week, literally April the 22nd to 24th in Orlando, the US Christian Chambers gathering together six or 700 marketplace believers from around the country to celebrate what God is doing in the marketplace and to inspire each other. Check it out online, swc2026.com. Martha and I will see you there next week.

All right, so conflict. As a mayor, and I walk alongside our mayor here in town, and I'm running for mayor in my town. There's conflict. There's gonna be conflict. Even if you haven't done anything to deserve a conflict, you're gonna get conflict because that just seems like the nature of being a mayor in a town. How has your faith led you to dealing with conflict at a whole different level?

Loran Mayes: I'm right in the middle of one, so timely question, and it is, it's a conflict that I dunno how I got here. It's one of those things that it happens faster and it's a mess before you look around and go, oh my, I don't know what I've done here, but I need to figure out where I played a role in this mess.

So one thing is, of course, praying about it. But differently than I ever thought I would. So before I pray about just getting my way, that's - we all have, we're people, right? So I want this to go my direction. I have had to change the way I pray about these things, and I need a resolution that matches where this is supposed to go. And really what you're praying is that you become aligned with that.

Instead of praying for the situation to become aligned with you, praying that you become aligned with what is supposed to happen in this situation and what can we learn about ourselves in this situation. And to see the person on the other side of that conflict with, assume good intent, their heart. Whether we agree with it or not, they believe it's in the right place. Usually these people are passionate about something.

And this is just my experience, so there's all kinds of conflicts, but for me, this has been the conflict: someone that disagrees with what I'm doing, they want this to happen and they don't like the way I'm doing it. And really it, I had to move from taking it personal to going, okay, hold on. Maybe I need to look at this. I need to understand where they're coming. I really need to pray about this because I do get my feelings hurt because I am just a person sometimes, and I need to really find out what I'm supposed to learn from this situation.

And sometimes you can fix it. And in this situation I can't. It needs to be less of me and more about facts and process and that has been very difficult to move into that. I'm hoping that it's a sign of maturing in conflict resolution to take the people part out, take your heart out of it. And in a good way. Not to where you are ugly or hateful, but to where you just look at facts and can proceed in a way that it, I might not have had the right answer in this and their answer truly may be better than mine, but it's what's best for the situation and for the town. And so I'm right in the middle of that.

I'm right in the thick of it. It has just really hurt to be in conflict with someone. I've cried about it. I have had a lot of conversations about how do I fix this? And finally someone was like maybe it's not yours to fix. And that's true. And sometimes it's not ours to fix. And sometimes we need to let the situation happen and see both sides of it.

Maybe mediation is needed, and I always thought that was a sign of failure when you needed mediation in a situation, and that's not true. Mediation is there for a reason and it can help both sides to understand and get those feelings and emotions out of it and really look at what's at hand. And if there is an underlying issue, then that can be brought out through mediation. And it is good. The Bible talks about mediation. The Holy Spirit is a mediator and when we need that, it's okay.

And I've really had to grasp ahold of that because it can feel very personal or failure. The enemy can use those thoughts to destroy that and it doesn't have to destroy a relationship, to be in conflict, and you can't even be better afterwards. And so that's what I'm learning. I won't say I have learned it yet, but that's what I'm learning as I go.

Jim: Have you ever had a job as hard as this before?

Loran Mayes: No, absolutely not, but I've also never had one I've loved nearly as much as this one.

Jim: That was my next question. All right. All along. You're a mama, a wife, you got a whole pack going on there. How have you protected your marriage and your family from your job as mayor?

Loran Mayes: So that has taken some growth on my end. I was really frustrated for a while and my husband knows this, and we can talk openly about this, about his absence, in my mayoral life. I was really mad for a long time because they weren't very involved. But as we have grown, it is a safe haven now that he is separated from that, that he's not in every single thing, that he doesn't throw himself into every conflict, that he doesn't, he doesn't jump in like my protector in that world.

But when I get home, that is separate. So he is separate from that. He stays out of it so that I do have a place to go to at home in the evenings that doesn't include all of that. And that took some time on my end to grow to like that and value that and not be mad at him about it because marriage is hard. And then you throw someone that's a public official that - and I work really hard to be in the public view and the public eye a lot because I really wanna be involved, and he is not that way and he stays at home.

But that's a safe haven and it's a protection for me to have that at home. And so God has changed that perspective for me and I have become very thankful for that. So he's a safe spot to land. He lets me just, sometimes you throw up a lot of emotion on someone and he just, okay, you will take that, put it over here. My daughter really likes to be involved and my kids, not all my kids feel that way, but my daughter really likes it. She's a lot like me and likes to be out and involved. She thrives on that. My other two, my oldest kids, they're older and moved on and they, when they come home, they're unplugged from it all again, which is a blessing.

But that's hard because sometimes, you see everybody with their whole family there, and that can be good too. But for us, it was really nice for me to have that safe spot to land at night or on the weekends or whenever. And so it's nice.

Jim: So when you look at all that, all that you've experienced, all that you're experiencing, do you believe more believers should step up and run for a local office?

Loran Mayes: I do. I I believe we should all step into the things that we feel our heart is called for. And I think we doubt ourselves a lot or we assume that we should only be like, we can only live out what God's called us to do in church or Sunday school or at a Christian school, and that's not true.

And you don't have to be outwardly aggressive with your faith. You don't have to be extreme with your faith to lead from a place as a believer. And I think we see a lot of that right now, very extreme. We have to be very forceful with what we believe, and I don't think you have to do that. I think that you can lead from a place as a believer and we should in all the places that we're called to be. And it doesn't, it's not always in a church. We probably should be more outside of a church than we are inside of a church. We should live out as a believer more outside of those walls than we do.

Jim: We call that the other 167. What are you doing outside of church? The other 167 is way more important than the one.

Loran Mayes: Yeah, and you can do it and you can do it as a believer and you can do it with faith. When I first started, I did not realize how many times people would ask me to pray in front of people, and that's not something I did. Remember all these things I did? I worked at church camp. I led a youth group. I still did not like to pray in public.

Listen, i'll pray anywhere now. And God has really forced me into that and it was so good for me. I don't have to pray like everybody else. I don't have to say the same words everybody else, that's for sure. I just pray what's on my heart when they ask me to pray, and it has really called me to do those things.

And so I think it's very important for people to know they don't have to lead like everyone else or what they see on TV or in extreme situations. They can lead from the heart. God calls us to do these things and he will figure it out. We don't have to do that. He will figure it out and he will give you what you need when you need it. Probably won't have it when you start but you'll get it when you need it.

Jim: Loran Mayes, it's been so much fun. We could talk for hours. But thank you for taking time out from being Mrs. Mayor in the city of Wilburton, Oklahoma. We're so grateful for your service to your country and to your city, and we look forward to following up and just keeping track of what God's doing.

Loran Mayes: You are welcome. Thank you for having me. And we'll be praying over your next couple of weeks.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. I'm a Christ follower, and my workplace, it's my mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

4/8/26 - 2141: Are You Actually a Good Neighbor?

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: In the simplest of terms, Jesus was all about loving his neighbor. Everything he did exemplified "love God, love your neighbor." He summarized the 10 commandments and all the rest of the law and prophets with those two sentences: love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Our guest today has been tasked with bringing neighbors together in southwest Missouri. He works in a university extension office and gets to do the kingdom work all day long. Nothing builds strong communities like helping neighbors to love and serve their neighbors.

David Burton is a Missouri friend of ours and he is in charge of the Engaged Neighbor Project, as well as the Engaged Neighbor Newsletter, which highlights the neighboring projects going on around our state as well as, how about Good Neighbor Week? How did David get such a sweet job and get to live out his faith while doing his job in a university setting? Let's find out right now. David Burton joins us in studio today, a rare in studio guest.

David, welcome to iWork4Him.

David Burton: I'm glad to be here. Thanks for the invite.

Jim: I hope you feel that way when we get to the end of the show (laughter) , that you're glad you're here. David, we always do this with every first time guest. We always highlight their Jesus story. What is your Jesus story?

David Burton: How long do you have?

Jim: You'll have a very short period of time on this. (laughter)

David Burton: Hey, I grew up in a family that attended church and my grandparents were on the same street. We all attended the same church together, and when I was 11, that was in 1978, during vacation Bible school, I invited Jesus to come into my heart. I was baptized that summer.

And I like to say that, some people had these sort of prodigal son sort of stories. Jesus saved them out of something, addiction and problems and stuff. That's not my story. But at the same time, Jesus saved me from a lot of things. He really protected me through high school and college, protected what I was exposed to and the people that were gathered around me.

So I certainly saw that. And then since that time, I would say my faith walk has been more like a treasure map. There's a continual sanctification process, right? And there's certainly Xs all along my route map that has led to my sanctification. Things like when we had our first child, my wife challenged me about the music I was listening to. Maybe I should try listening to contemporary Christian music instead of the eighties rock and roll that I grew up with.

Jim: She made you get rid of your Led Zeppelin? (laughing)

David Burton: I can still enjoy a Led Zeppelin, but that did open up a whole new world to me, really. And a regular way to put Christ into my heart, through music. And so there's certainly things like that all along my journey that have positively impacted my spiritual growth, my sanctification, it's a ongoing version. I'm getting ready to have a big update, and I have stopped naming the number of years. I just look at it as an update. (laughter) Apple has regular updates.

Martha: There you go. You're gonna be version...

David Burton: 6.0.

Martha: 6.0. Nice. Yeah, don't worry. We were doing the math 'cause we're in the same, we're in the same year as you, so we get it.

Jim: I'm not year as old as you are. (laughter)

David Burton: It's a continual process. And I would say, looking back, I've seen God's fingerprints with me through the hard and through the good as well, lots of different moments. Those have all been spiritual growth experiences. Many different ones come to mind.

Martha: That's so good. Thank you for sharing that. And much like our spiritual growth is a process and a journey, so is our work life. And so I'm curious how you ended up working within the University of Missouri system.

David Burton: Yeah, I am too. (laughter) yeah, I had someone ask me that very thing yesterday actually. I I went to college at Drew University in Springfield with the idea of going to law school, where I did go for a year. And then I like to tell people I had watched too much LA Law. (chuckles)

Martha: Oh yeah.

David Burton: Because Law School wasn't anything like that TV show.

Jim: We 're more Suits fans. (chuckling)

Martha: Yeah, but we, in the day, we were watching LA Law.

Jim: Absolutely.

David Burton: Yeah. And I did not return after my first year. Instead, I became managing editor of a weekly newspaper that was there in, in Willard, covered my hometown of Ashgrove and Willard, and I had done my second major was in journalism. And really I loved that job. Being in a small town newspaper, I still say it was the best job I ever had.

But I met a girl and decided I wanted to get married and I need to be able to put a roof over her. And so money was an important thing, right? But certainly I had those six years of newspaper experience. I worked in fundraising and alumni for Missouri State University in Springfield. I worked in corporate public relations for about six years and then got hired at University of Missouri extension really to lead a regional media network effort. And I've been with Extension for 25 years.

But really in that time, I've had five different jobs. My office has been the same spot. My title's been pretty much the same, but I've really had five different jobs during that time just 'cause of changes that happened and where the need is and that sort of thing.

Jim: So God just was doing training through five different positions to get you where you're at today.

David Burton: That really is the story of that other background. If not for those, I would not be in the position.

Jim: That's right. But not everybody knows what an extension office is. In fact, I wasn't really sure what an extension, I'm not still not really sure except for, I know it's an extension of the university system and they've got, it's basically Rome had an extension office in Jerusalem, but they were based outta Italy, but they were still controlling Jerusalem. What is an extension office?

David Burton: Yeah. We can get really nerdy about this. We can thank Abraham Lincoln for legislation he signed in 1862 that established the extension sort of philosophy and idea of extending the research of a university out to the public, people who might never have a chance to be at the university.

And then there was the Smith Lever Act that came along that really provides funding mechanism for that in 1914. And it's still that same premise - extending the research and efforts of the university out to the public to help them improve their farming, improve their families, improve their gardens and all the different areas that we work in.

So in Missouri we're set up a little different than other states, but there is an extension program in every state in the United States. There is a land grant university in every state. University of Missouri is the one for missouri, and that's where the extension programs reside. And in Missouri, we actually have an extension office in every county in the state. Now some of those offices may just have one person working out of it. We all have multiple counties that we serve. I'm in Green County. There's five, gonna be six of us there soon, that work out of that county. But we all have multiple offices that we serve.

Jim: And Green County is where Springfield, Missouri, is, for those of you listening who don't know anything about Missouri.

David Burton: Yeah.

Martha: Yes. It's interesting because until I really we got to know you, David, my experience with the extension office was truly like my soil's not working in my garden. I'm gonna go take it to the extension office. That was literally all I thought the extension office did. So you've really opened our eyes up to a lot of things and I want to talk a little bit about now this kind of, I would say, pet project that you have.

Jim: It's his job!

Martha: No, I know. But he gets to do this for work, but it's his heart too. I know enough about you to know that this is way beyond what somebody just told you to do. And so I wanna talk about your work on the neighboring project. Tell us about it.

David Burton: Yeah, so you're right. It's not agriculture, it's not soil test. It's not 4H clubs. So it's a little different for extension, but really it developed out of a personal story.

I thought I was a good neighbor until I discovered I was not, and honestly, our church had added the word neighbor to its mission statement, and I sat through a sermon about being a good neighbor, and I left thinking that sermon wasn't really for me because I'm already a good neighbor.

I wave at my neighbors. I pick up after my dog on the walks. I put up my Christmas lights before January 1st. The police have never been called to my house, so I'm obviously, I'm already a good neighbor. And it feels awful, sounds awful to say that, but I thought that sermon wasn't for me.

Martha: Sure.

David Burton: We left the next day to go to Colorado Springs where my sister-in-law works at a church. So we went to church the following Sunday with her and they were kicking off their new theme for the year. And you already know what that new theme for the year was. It was Love Thy Neighbor.

Martha: Awesome.

David Burton: So I sat through a second sermon about it and again, I still thought, I think I'm already a good neighbor. I wave at all my neighbors.

Jim: Oh, you wave at 'em too?

David Burton: I wave at 'em. I smile at my neighbors.

Jim: Is that the small town one finger wave? (chuckles)

Martha: Depends on if you're driving or not.

David Burton: I'm convinced that if you had polled my neighbors then, they would've all said I was a good neighbor.

Martha: Okay.

David Burton: We were friendly out in the yard, the wave sort of thing. And I have research to support that now too, that I've done statewide. But then a coworker of hers gave me a copy of a book called The Art of Neighboring by Dave Runion. And I wasn't done with chapter one yet, and I was saying, oh my, I'm a horrible neighbor, 'cause new neighbors had come in, people had moved, and we didn't even bother to get to know their names when they moved in.

And here we were in the same house for 15 years and we knew the names of one neighbor. But I waved at him and I was friendly. So it began as a personal conviction. We said we have got to be doing better. If we say we love our neighbors, that is an active word, that is a verb. It takes action. And where I would've thought the opposite of love was hate, turns out the opposite of love is apathy. And we were demonstrating apathy toward our neighbors.

Jim: Wow.

Martha: So how did that then turn into your life's work?

David Burton: Yeah. (chuckling)

Jim: How'd you get a job on that?

David Burton: Yeah. Again, extension is very good at being like flexible and addressing current issues, things that are coming up, even in agriculture. We focus a lot now on Black Vultures. That didn't used to be a thing in Missouri. Things that come up, we do address those and really I had this personal conviction and I started seeing my neighborhood as my sphere of influence and where I needed to be doing work on my time off and trying to make those connections.

And I did have kind of an aha moment. I do remember when that happened. And I think that was a God-inspired aha moment when he tapped me on the shoulder and said, Hey, this isn't just personal work, this is community development work. Because I was used to working at a more of a macro, high level level with cities and others, doing leadership training and planning and working with cities, developing leaders and volunteers.

But really you can do that at a neighborhood level and have equal influence on a city from the ground up. And so I approached my boss with the idea, and in true extension fashion, he said, I'll give you 5% of your time to work on that project, do some reading, think about some research, see if you can come up with a class.

It was also my heart interest, so I think he got more than 5% outta me, (chuckling) but I kept up with my other work too. And I got a curriculum approved for a class and we offered it online. We had 300 and some odd people register for it from all across the United States. And then suddenly my boss was like, Hey, I think I can give you more than 5% of your time. Try to research, do a research project, try to do publication and things.

And just as those things have happened, the program has grown as I have gotten some grants that helped support it, as I've gotten invitations far outside the state of Missouri to talk about it. It has grown and has become more and more of my work, so to where now it really is probably 90% of my work. I still do an ag tour in our county. I still do some other traditional classes that we have going on, but certainly this idea of becoming an engaged neighbor has really captured my heart and I think captured the attention of others.

Martha: That's so good. For many of us, our trajectory may change several times during our career, just like a David, same title, but just different focuses. But changing your cell phone number to match your values is something you -

Jim: not your number -

Martha: oh, your provider. That's right. Yeah. We don't wanna ever change our cell phone number, right? Never. But changing your cell phone provider to match your values is something you only need to do once.

Patriot Mobile is built on the pillars of faith, family, and freedom. Visit patriotmobile.com/iwork4him and just remember to tell them that iWork4Him sent you. This is a good change for you to make in 2026.

Jim: And I'm surprised more of you haven't made this change already. Patriot mobile.com/iwork4him. Your cell phone company is investing in all of the things that are opposite of what iWork4Him stands for, really what the whole kingdom of God stands for. Patriot Mobile is all about supporting the values that we put forth here in iWork4Him. You're gonna help change our country by changing your cell phone company, but it won't change your service.

We get just as good a service as we did before with one of those big guys. But Patriot mobile.com/iWork4Him is giving their money to help change our country in the right trajectory. Please make the change today and let 'em know iWork4Him sent you.

All right. So David, all right. Your overall focus, let's talk about your overall focus as part of, because you,, Engaged Neighbor Project- you're working on neighboring. You've helped really start up the Missouri Good Neighbor Week, which is unbelievable. It goes all over the country, all over the state, and I'm sure you're influencing the country. Your overall focus, what is it?

David Burton: In community development, we talk about helping the community build its civic muscle, and you do that in four areas: belonging, vitality, connection, and leadership. And so all of our programming focuses on one of those four areas, and when you build those muscle groups it makes your community stronger overall.

Jim: So just hang on there for a second. You make it sound very University.

Martha: That's how he gets paid. (laughter)

David Burton: You threw my notes away. I had to invent another way to say it. (laughter)

Jim: Just so you know, ladies and gentlemen, he brought notes to read right here on iWork4Him and you know...

Martha: they're over there on the floor.

Jim: That's right.

Martha: Jim threw them.

Jim: Nobody gets to read notes on iWork4Him. This is a spirit driven podcast. And if God doesn't have it written on your heart, I don't want you reading it on the show. (laughter)

You're talking kingdom stuff. Jesus summarized the entirety of the law and the prophets in two sentences: love God, love your neighbor. You are getting to do kingdom work every day on this Engaged Neighbor Project because being a good neighbor changes communities.

When you say community development, there's no new communities getting developed across the country. You're talking about bringing a community back to life. That's what you're talking about.

David Burton: Yeah, absolutely. But making those connections with those that live closest to you is a foreign idea in a lot of areas and among church people too, I might add.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: Why do you make it sound like it's such a shock? (laughter) You mean church people are struggling to be good neighbors too?

David Burton: Yeah, I thought originally there might be some programming potential with churches. I've had a lot of those conversations with leaders and I have been told things like, we don't have time for that on our calendar. Our members wouldn't be interested. And people who have said I invited my neighbor to church once he said, no. I've not talked to him since.

But there's applications all across America and no matter your walk of life. And connecting with neighbors helps reduce isolation. It helps improve mental health and physical health. Giving people a sense of belonging makes them more likely to volunteer and serve in their community. That strengthens the community, no matter their walk of life. And so there's great potential here.

Martha: You know what? There's something even just that honestly, there's so many applications to just this neighboring concept. When you were just saying the things about them feeling like they belong and stuff, they're even just less likely to steal from you. They're less likely to abuse something in the neighborhood.

It's like where Walmart used to have the greeters. Why did they do that? Eye to eye was somebody, you feel a connection to them that makes you feel responsible for that relationship. And for our listeners that have been with us for a while, they know how we feel about neighboring. We get a little passionate because we even say in the workplace, the person in the cubicle next to you or the office down the hallway, that is your nine to five neighbor. Now, none of us work nine to five. I know that, but it's your seven to five neighbors, whatever it might be.

It's your work time neighbor that you rub shoulders with, that you walk past when you're on your way to go get coffee in the break room, whatever it might be. Those are your neighbors.

Jim: What about in traffic in Atlanta?

Martha: Oh, yes. We had a guest that we interviewed years ago, and then she said, I try to be in community with those people driving because, you don't wanna be against them, that's for sure. But neighboring has such a vast impact. And so talk about, what kind of victories have you seen within the Engaged Neighbor Project?

David Burton: Sure. We'll talk about victories. Sure. But I might give a little bit of pushback on the other. And that is this idea what that when you don't have a target, when you're shooting, when you're aiming at everything, you really hit nothing.

And in America, we have had this tendency to say, everybody's my neighbor. I didn't cut somebody off in traffic today. I was a good neighbor. Oh, I'm just neighboring all the time. Look at me. And then we go home, we pull in the garage, shut the garage door, and we don't even know the names of the people around us.

Martha: Yes.

David Burton: So neighboring begins with those immediate people that touch your property. It can be more.

Martha: Yeah.

David Burton: But it should never be less. And if you're out doing those things but don't know the people because of proximity that live right next to you. Then you're really not neighboring. That's where your target needs to begin, right there.

Martha: And I agree with you, and I even tell people, this is my perspective on it. How can you lay in bed at night and not know the people's names that are laying in bed in the buildings around, the homes right around you? To me, that's almost creepy. You've got people that close to you and you don't know their names.

David Burton: And taking that approach has opened up so many possibilities for me, even in just sharing life, having opportunities to share the gospel where they ask me. I didn't have to be a salesperson over it at all. It came up naturally because you're developing relationship and you're doing that without a bait and switch approach. " I'll have you over for dinner, but I'm gonna tell you my gospel story." How about just have people over for dinner to develop trust and a friendship?

Martha: Yep.

Jim: And then that happens naturally and organically. But victory, certainly people that have been involved in Neighboring 101 or people that have even-

That's a class you teach?

David Burton: That's a class I teach. Or even just people that have come to our driveway. I think of one neighbor who end up running for city council and he told me, and he serves on city council in my hometown, said he never would've done that if not for the driveway chats we were doing, 'cause he didn't feel connected. He didn't know anyone. And it gave him the courage to run for a seat on council.

Martha: Wow.

David Burton: So big and small people who have just been reunited in relationship, people who have found a neighbor who could help them with some needs, or opportunities to help a neighbor just because they took a step out to have connection.

In our own life, when we were trying to learn our neighbor's names, my wife got a cancer diagnosis, and in the process of learning our neighbor's names, we discovered two of them had their own cancer story. And so when she came home from surgery, who was the first people on our doorstep? Who was the first to bring a meal? Who became her support network? Those two neighbors that had won their cancer battle. There's that type of connection as well. And I would consider that a victory as well.

Martha: That's a huge victory.

Jim: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I was thinking, Martha, it's 20, 25 years ago, probably 22 years ago, our pastor of our local church in Largo, Florida, said, hey, do you know the names of the people that live in front of you, behind you, next door to you?

And if you don't, you need to get to know those names. I remember the sermon. I remember him saying that, and I'm like, yeah, I don't know that we do. And that was our impetus in our townhouse neighborhood in Florida, where we got to know the names of every person on our street. And we started praying over all those townhouses. There was just 30 of them in our neighborhood and we got to know everybody on our street. We never really did a good job of knowing the people behind us 'cause there was a big wall of trees behind us.

Martha: It wasn't your typical lot in a city. It was a whole nother road back there. But we did but that was - you're exactly right, Jim. And that actually led then to me leading that community for 10 years as the president of the HOA. But it was because we've felt a responsibility and a connection to everybody that we lived there with. We didn't, we didn't take that lightly and we started to invite 'em into our homes.

Jim: Parties and potlucks.

Martha: Yeah.

David Burton: Learn names. Find ways to use the names. Throw a good party. Those are the good three steps to build those connections. And you're really building social capital. And that's what we talk about in community development and secular settings, building this social capital, this connection of, interconnection of abilities and skills and talents. And connections. There's great value in that for a community and for your own personal health.

Jim: Speaking of building social capital, as founding members of the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, we find that the values and goals of iWork4Him align with those of the Christian Chamber, the Christian Chambers across the country, but specifically the US Christian Chamber.

With that in mind, Martha and I invite you to join us at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce spiritual World citizens Expo in April this year, April 22nd to 24th in Orlando, just outside of SeaWorld. And we'd love to have you join us. Get registered now, and be a part of what's changing in our country, as believers in the marketplace gathering together to build bold businesses, to unite in order to break barriers in your communities, and advance the kingdom. We'll be your MCs once again at this event and can't wait to see you in Orlando. Register using the code iWork4Him. That's I work the number 4 him for 20% off on your tickets online at swc2026.com. It's right around the corner. It's not too late to get your tickets.

Martha: Absolutely. So David, kind of a interesting question here. What do you find to be the hardest part of your job?

David Burton: Speaking at an event or doing a workshop and seeing people enthusiastic, but having that not translate into action. We do a lot of follow up surveys and so people will score the work really high or the speech really high, this really, "I'm gonna make a change." And then you follow up and it's a slow process. But I am reminded that small incremental changes over a long period of time do add up to big change. There is a ripple effect here, but I consider that kind of the hardest part, the translating enthusiasm into action.

Jim: When you talk to people about getting to know the names of their neighbors around them - let's say you've lived in a neighborhood for 20 years and you don't know anybody. It's a little awkward to actually start having conversations with people that you lived alongside that you don't have any idea who they are.

It's like, Hey, I'm sorry I've been a lousy neighbor for 20 years. (laughter) I'm Jim and this is my wife, Martha, can we get to know you a little bit? That's, that's awkward, but that's what needs to happen.

David Burton: That's how we started ours actually. Yeah, you gotta step into the awkward. I have a friend that says "eat crow while it's young and tender," but some of our crow wasn't real tender. Been a long time.

And there's also this cultural narrative we're pushing back against. We saw this in the research study I did across Missouri that we repeated two different years. And one of the questions we asked in that was, what makes someone a good neighbor? And both years, the top two traits are someone who's quiet and someone who respects my privacy.

So 10 percentage points ahead of number three. So Missourians say, a good neighbor is someone who is quiet and leaves me alone. And I don't feel like we need more good neighbors, if that's what that means. We don't need more good neighbors. We need more engaged neighbors, people that want to do life with those that are around them.

Jim: Hence the name engagedneighbor.com. So what's amazing is that this is, when you look at the neighborhoods built in the forties and the fifties, they had front porches and everybody engaged from the street level, from the sidewalk level, to the people on the front porches.

Then in the sixties and the seventies and the eighties, even to today, they build houses with all of the living in the back. In fact, the kitchen faces the back of the house. The deck goes outta the back of the house, and then they build fences around the backyard. So all you're looking at is your dog running around your backyard if you got a dog or your kids. And we've gotta switch that. If you're a builder today, would you please start putting front porches on your houses?

Martha: Big enough for rocking chairs. (chuckling)

Jim: That's right. My parents had a little house here in Missouri that had a front porch on it.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: And my dad loved sitting out there just looking at the trees, but while waving at the neighbors as they drive by. But that's, David, that's part of the problem is that we've built houses that totally fight engaging our neighbors.

David Burton: Yeah, I think there's a number of things you can put in that list instead of just just front porches. But air conditioning keeps us all locked inside here.

Jim: We're grateful for air conditioning. (laughter)

Martha: But it does.

David Burton: Entertainment options that, that at the touch of a button, our finger. And I think there's also these internal limitations. People have a lot of fear. You fear what you don't trust, and if you don't know someone, you may not have trust. So you have fear about what am I gonna get into if I have a relationship with them? Or people may have shame about, I don't want people knowing about what's going on inside my house or that we're not perfect people. So there's that as well. And I think those heart issues also come into play. And just unwillingness to be vulnerable with people and doing life.

I think that's a factor as well, but certainly I hear front porches and fences and those things. There's a book called Three Panes of Glass, and he argues that it's the three Panes of Glass that keep us from connection. It's the the windshield. We now have longer commutes. It's the television. And it's the smartphone. And those are the three panes of glass that keep us from having a relationship.

Jim: Wow. We were just on a cruise, martha and I were. And they now have, wifi was included with most of the packages and so normally on cruises everybody's disconnected and they're just engaging with complete strangers. They were all on their phones. Like what a shame. The perfect environment to get away from your cell phone is on a cruise ship and they've screwed that up.

Martha: There's something else too, just to encourage people is in this conversation, is a lot of people are like my home's not ready for somebody to come inside. That's the beauty of the front porch or a place where you can sit in your yard, is you don't have to feel that obligation that my house has to be perfect in order to be a really engaged neighbor that can invite people in.

One of my favorite books is The Turquoise Table. And putting a table in your yard that says, Hey, come sit with me. I'm gonna have some, I have cookies here. Or, let's let the kids run around and we can sit and visit, or whatever that might be. So there's so many options that don't make us be perfect in order to be a good neighbor. I've actually had most, a lot of conversations with my neighbors through Facebook Messenger because I at least can be like "hey, I see something going on in your backyard. Is everything okay?"

But being connected to them enough to be able to do that is critical to engaging with them. So I know we have a couple more questions that we wanna get to real quick, but I want you to at least talk quickly about the Good Neighbor Week that is in Missouri, because it may prompt people to think about, what can I do? I don't live in Missouri. How can I do something intentional? And I really feel like that's what the Good Neighbor Week is all about.

David Burton: Yeah. I'm a big proponent of what's called the Idea Friendly method, and you start small with something. Don't start with this grandiose idea yet. And I began small, I began by celebrating National Good Neighbor Day, which is September 28th, in my neighborhood.

And that was actually signed into law by Jimmy Carter back in the seventies. So that day gave me an excuse to gather my neighbors together. We did a driveway thing. It's national Good Neighbor day. This isn't gonna feel awkward. This is the reason we're doing it. Come join us. And then the following year I did something more citywide. The city agreed to some surveys and some mailings, and we did something citywide. And then the year after that I thought, I think I could get some sponsors and try and do this countywide and we'll give some awards for the best acts of neighboring or maybe try to recognize the best neighbor.

And that was pretty successful in Green County. And I was saying at a Republic Chamber of Commerce meeting, my state representative came and sat at the same table. He'd seen what I'd been doing at the county level, and he asked what no one else had asked me and what I hadn't thought about yet. He said, so what are your future plans for that?

And I felt like pressured to come up with something, right? And I said I think in Missouri it'd be cool if we celebrated for a whole week. And next thing I knew, I think it was about three months later, he called and said, Hey, I've written a bill for Missouri Good Neighbor Week. Would you come testify on it?

Jim: Oh my word.

David Burton: And and he also said, don't plan on it getting passed this year. It usually takes two or three years for something like this to happen. Of course, I went up and testified. We picked up 20 some odd co-sponsors after the testimony. Nobody's gonna argue. Everybody was all over that. And through an unusual set of circumstances, it got passed on the last day of the legislature.

Martha: Wow.

David Burton: And got signed into law. So that was in 2022 in the spring. And so that fall we really launched the website and the whole campaign. You can nominate people to be recognized as the most engaged neighbor. And we look for neighborly businesses and we look for the most neighborly neighborhoods. And then cities accrue points based on the acts of neighboring that are reported out of that community.

And we have size categories that the Missouri Municipal League uses for their awards program. So it pro rates, so you don't have big towns competing against small towns. And then we are able from that to able to determine the six most neighborly cities in Missouri. And so that's all part of the celebration. And so the long-term vision for that is to, last year we had 42,139 acts of neighboring reported in Missouri. This year, the fifth year, we've changed the theme a little bit to a year of neighboring activity and a week to celebrate it.

And so we're really trying to foster this idea of neighboring be being year round and those neighboring activities. And so the long-term goal is in 2028 to have be up to a hundred thousand acts of neighboring reported.

Jim: Just right here in missouri?

David Burton: Just right here in Missouri.

Martha: That's awesome.

Jim: Oh, and imagine if we can do that in New York!

Martha: Yeah. And we'll put some links in the show notes to just help inspire people and to peek in and see what's happening, whether you are just personally inspired or you have a position where you can say, Hey, I think I can do more. What might that look like? That's just such a great resource for everybody. So thank you for sharing.

David Burton: Just start in your own neighborhood or on your own street.

Jim: Exactly. And this is where we'll end with this last conversation. As Jesus followers, we can have the greatest impact in the world if we would just learn to love our neighbors. Why is that, David?

David Burton: Because it is something pretty rare anymore. I think we do stand out in that way. That's always been the strategy from the very beginning. Person to person, house to house.

Jim: I mean, what's hilarious is people don't realize this, the 10 Commandments, the first four are about love God and the last six about Love your neighbor.

David Burton: Yeah.

Jim: And Jesus brought that back up again. So this was a Jesus idea, not a David Burton idea.

David Burton: That is true. Let's give credit where cred is due. That is very much true.

Jim: And Jesus loved his neighbors. He even tried to love the people that were trying to kill him. In fact, he actually forgave them while they were killing him. But Jesus was the greatest example of loving on neighbors, people that other people were, that were ostracized, people that were part of the lower class, even tax collectors. Have you got an IRS agent in your neighborhood? Love them. (laughing)

Martha: Love them even more.

Jim: That's right. But David, this is something that the church really struggles with, isn't it?

David Burton: It is. I've seen that firsthand, of course. But I am thankful that over the years, the local Baptist Association in Green County has had me speak on this a couple of times, and that got me to thinking more about what this looks like for me.

And a couple of churches have partnered with me on a project and I actually have a new book that has come out called Neighborhood Mission Trips for Everyday Christians that's available on Amazon. And, so everyday mission trips, it's this idea of, we get passports and tickets, we go overseas on a mission trip.

What would that look like if we stayed right here in our neighborhood? How would we do that? There's devotionals that accompany that idea, a schedule, and a way that you can do it individually or with a small group or with your church. And I really think mission starts right across the street.

Martha: Amen.

Jim: And and then it moves into your office.

David Burton: Yeah. Moves into your office and it might someday be overseas, but it needs to begin right there in your neighborhood. I sometimes say there's nothing I can do that changes Washington, DC, and maybe nothing I can do that changes my state capital, but I can make a choice every single day that impacts my neighbors and my neighborhood. And so you're doing that through a Christian lens. You're certainly engaging with your neighbors to show kindness, to show love, show concern. And that can lead to great conversations and great stories.

Jim: David Burton, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today.

David Burton: Glad to be here.

Jim: Thanks for coming on location. It was great.

David Burton: Yeah, it was fun.

Jim: Make sure you check him out online, engagedneighbor.com. engagedneighbor.com. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and our workplace - and our neighborhood - is our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

4/1/26 - 2140: The Voices of SWC 2026 Podcast Row

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: You know what happens when you get a whole bunch of podcasts together in one Zoom room? We're about to find out.

Coming up on April 22nd through the 24th is the US Christian Chamber Spiritual World Citizens 2026 Expo. If you're a believer in the marketplace, you need to be there. It's in Orlando and all the details will be in the show notes or on the website. swc2026.com.

One of the really cool features of the expo will be the Podcast Row, where four other podcasters will be capturing the stories of those in attendance to share with their audiences. Since Martha and I'll be MCing that event, we won't be joining all of our new friends on Podcast Row, so we thought we could bring them here to introduce them all to you, our audience, and to talk about the upcoming three day Marketplace worship event being held in Orlando, Florida - all because of the US Christian Chamber of Commerce.

Scott, Joey, Kurt, Kristen. Oh, we didn't have Kurt. We got Kristen, not Kurt. Scott and Mike. Joey. We got 'em all.

Martha: Got 'em all. (chuckling)

Jim: Welcome to iWork4Him.

Kristen Luidhardt: Woohoo. We're here.

Scott Warren: Good to be here. Can you hear me?

Jim: Oh, we can hear, Scott. Fantastic. All right. We're gonna do this in a really quick round robin fashion, so just be patient with a bit. But we're gonna start ladies first. Kristen, I want you to answer these questions. Which part of the country are you from, tell us your Jesus story, and how did, what does it look like for you to connect your faith and work on a daily basis? Go.

Kristen Luidhardt: I am hailing from Greenwood, Indiana, is just south of Indianapolis. So the great Midwest. My Jesus story, I grew up in church and I was blessed to have a family surrounded with faith. And it really shifted for me when I went to college. I went to Indiana Wesleyan University and they taught a foreign thing to me, which was having a biblical worldview so that you could think about how your faith applies to all of life. And that really served me.

I got active in politics but then I started thinking that I could do everything on my own. And so my Jesus story really is about when I learned to surrender and recognize that it wasn't up to my own power, my own will, everything, including motherhood, and just learning to trust in him.

And so that has really been the difference and the shift for me and then how I live out faith in the workplace. Again, the whole reason I wanted to get involved in politics - and we had an agency, we've worked in every state except for Hawaii - was that I thought that was how I was gonna make my impact on the world.

And so what's amazing about that is that now after doing politics for almost 20 years, we're now helping businesses and brands connect with other values aligned people, which is just really exciting.

Jim: Yeah. I wish I'd known you like five weeks ago, six weeks ago, when we started running for mayor right here in our small town.

Kristen Luidhardt: I heard about that, by the way, and I'm excited to chit chat about that later.

Jim: Oh yeah, absolutely. Mike, age before beauty, or age after beauty? Maybe that's what it is. (chuckling) Tell us which part of the country you from, what's your Jesus story? What's it look like for you to connect your faith in your work on a daily basis?

Mike Gilland: I too am from Indiana, originally from Evansville, Indiana. Another Hoosier. Moved down to Orlando in 85. My Jesus story is I grew up in a church. I was saved when I was 10. And I thought I was gonna be a school teacher and went to college to do that. Ended up not liking the whole process in my freshman year, they had a class that was aimed to root out people who were not gonna waste four years of college, only to find out that they didn't like teaching in the public school system.

That served me, and my teacher of a speech class was a program director at a TV station. He was an adjunct professor and he pulled me aside one day and said, I think you're not happy. And he was right. And so I was a believer and I was a little different than a lot of his other students because of my faith.

I'd grown up again with faith in Jesus. And this guy was a believer too. And he caught onto that and he poured into me and I made the move from teaching to broadcasting and went into radio with his help, this guy's help, ultimately ended up moving to television. I was a weather guy at his station, which was really cool.

And then I was called into ministry and that was a shock to me. And I left broadcasting in 83 and went full-time into ministry for 36 years. And during those years I continued to do broadcasting for a fun hobby and extra income and so forth, and retired from full-time ministry in 2019. And to my great surprise was offered this position where I am now.

Jim: Now, Mike, normally I would argue with somebody like you when you said you left your work and you went in to full-time ministry. We don't have enough time today, but for the audience, we all know what to say to Mike, don't we? He was in the ministry in TV broadcasting, went into the ministry, apparently, probably within the four walls of a church and then is now in the ministry doing radio broadcasting.

He never left the ministry, because he's in ministry everywhere he goes. And our audience knows that. But Mike, I wanted to help you out so that you're languaging, you can always speak truth into people that no matter where we're at, it's our mission field. We are on our, it's our assigned full-time place of ministry.

Mike Gilland: I should have said full-time ministry.

Martha: For most people, it's really just being paid by a nonprofit versus a for-profit. So Joey, we're gonna go around to you now. So tell us where you are in the country and your Jesus story, and then what does it look like for you to connect your faith in your work?

Joey Ruffalo: Yeah, so I am in what's considered God's country, east Tennessee, Knoxville.

Martha: Oh, there you go.

Joey Ruffalo: Not born and raised here. I was born and raised in New Jersey. Lived in California for about 25 years before relocating here about four years ago.

Martha: Coast to coast.

Joey Ruffalo: Yes. Traveled around a bit. My story's a little different. I grew up in the Catholic church. Wasn't really the type of person that went every Sunday, still finding trouble to get up on Sunday. Apologize. I know I'm in the right place, but

Jim: there's no judgment zone here.

Joey Ruffalo: I know. We ran a small business. We were always entrepreneurs. I had a small business when I was about 23 up until about a few years ago. We were making a lot of money, and in the 2007 financial crisis, we lost a lot of it and ended up in about $370,000 in debt, where we were broke. It was mostly me. I was broke, desperate, stupid, and dumb. And didn't really know a way out.

And I came to the realization that, I didn't own it all. I was just a steward of it. And so that mindset shift for me, led me down the path to financial planning and getting out of debt. Took us about two and a half years to get outta debt, working hard. Got into financial planning and then in that process, got into financial coaching. Do behavioral finance coaching and small business coaching, helping people connect their why with money and helping them grow their businesses using the principles of stewardship and things like that.

Martha: Wow. I'm gonna interrupt you right here because we could dive so deep with each one of you, and that's why I love that we're introducing you to our audience so that they can do that deep dive because there's so much that each one of you have already said that is so intriguing. But Joey, why don't you tell me then, how now are you connecting your faith in your work?

Joey Ruffalo: So with my podcast and the radio show that I'm doing, I interview a lot of people in small business, leadership community and connected with a faith-based undertone. So how I'm connecting my work with faith is basically I'm just starting my journey. So I am interviewing people that are already way further along than I am, and I'm learning from them along that process. So that's how I'm connecting myself is I'm just along for the ride. Teach me as I'm going every episode.

Martha: That's fabulous. What a great posture to have. Okay, Scott, we're gonna go to you. We've had some technical difficulties. We love that you're in the room with all of us. Thank you. We're gonna just a rapid fire answer to where you are in the country. What is your Jesus story and how are you currently connecting your faith to your work?

Scott Warren: Yeah. I've lived all over. I've spent 29 years in sports and entertainment, running arenas and performing arts centers throughout the US and Canada. I moved here to the Windermere, Florida area. I'm in the Orlando area. Now, I moved here from Canada about six years ago, maybe seven years ago now.

Jim: Bougie Orlando is what the rest of us call that. Bougie Orlando. (laughing)

Scott Warren: Something like that. Correct.

Martha: Love it.

Scott Warren: Guilty as charged, but nonetheless... so I didn't, unlike some of the guests here, I didn't grow up in the church. In fact, I wanted nothing to do with the church. I had no problems with Jesus and God, big fans of them, but just didn't care for the followers all that much.

And so I stayed away from the church for a very long time. In fact, I've only been saved, so to speak, for 12 years. I'm now 58. And so it hasn't been that long. And I actually started out, it was my executive assistant who was a worship leader that she worked for me and she kept inviting me to church, and I wanted no part of it.

No thank you. No thank you. Time after time. No thank you. How about our church picnic? Yep. Still, no. Finally, there was a Christmas production that she was gonna be singing in, and I had never heard her sing, and so I wanted to hear her sing. So we went to the, my family and I, my wife, my son was six, my daughter was nine at the time, we went to hear her sing. And we, at the end of the service, as the pastor does every head bowed, every eye closed, if you wanna know this Jesus we've been talking about, on the count of three, raise your hand. On the count of three, my wife and I looked straight ahead, not really interested.

My 6-year-old son put his hand up in the air, and it changed our lives. We've never been the same. And that was a moment for us that changed everything and we've never left the church since. And october of 2020, I released a book called Preach Where You Reach about how I brought my faith to the workplace, not a "how to," more of a "how I," as an encouragement, and released that in October of 2020.

Three years later, the Holy Spirit said it's time, which meant it was time to do the podcast that I had been putting off for so long. And I pride myself on being bold and obedient. And so that meant, ugh, I gotta do it. And getting ready to enter the fourth year of the Preach Where Your Reach podcast.

Jim: All right. We're gonna get into the details of other podcasts, and again, we're talking to four podcasters will be on Podcast Row at the US Christian Chamber biannual event in Orlando, Florida, coming up April 22nd to 24th at the - it used to be the, it's right near SeaWorld.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: It's at the DoubleTree.

Martha: Has a new name.

Jim: It has a new name.

Martha: All that's in the website.

Jim: You don't need to worry about, it's swc2026.com. But I gotta figure out where we're supposed to park.

Martha: Yeah. We'll figure that out. (chuckling)

Jim: As founding members of the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, we find that the values and goals of iWork4Him align perfectly with those of the US Christian Chamber. With that in mind, the US Christian Chamber of Commerce spiritual World Citizens Expo, coming up in just a few weeks, April 22nd to 24th, we would love to invite you to get registered right now and join us in Orlando for an immersive three day experience where Christian leaders unite to break barriers, build bold businesses, and advance the kingdom.

Martha and I are MCs once again, and we can't wait to see you in Orlando. Register using the code iWork4Him for 20% off of your ticket. swc2026.com. All right. Now, more round robin, but faster 'cause the three of you radio people - none of you hit one minute. Not even close. All right. (laughter)

Martha: No pressure.

Jim: Your podcast name. Why did you start? What's the focus of your podcast content, and who are you looking to interview at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce event? Scott, start with you. We just heard why you started the podcast. Your podcast name, Preach Where You Reach. What's the focus of your podcast, and who you're looking to talk to at the upcoming event?

Scott Warren: The goal really is to encourage, equip, and inspire marketplace apostles so that they can bring their faith into the workplace. And so I talk to everyone from CEOs, athletes, could be a barista at Starbucks, doesn't matter. If it is a Christian person in the marketplace, we have a conversation and our conversations typically are based on their testimony initially and then how they incorporate their Christian faith in the work that they do.

Jim: Very good.

Scott Warren: Whatever that looks like. It could be overtly or it could be something that is simple as embodying the characteristics and qualities of Christ.

Jim: And who are we looking to connect with at the US Christian Chamber event?

Scott Warren: Everyone. I wanna say hello to everyone. There's no one in particular. I'm just excited about the event. Looking forward to seeing everyone there.

Jim: Fabulous. Make sure look up Scott Warren, Preach Where You Reach, down in Podcast Row. Joey Ruffalo.

Joey Ruffalo: Yes, sir.

Jim: Go.

Joey Ruffalo: Yes. We host the Prosperity Lounge. Prosperity Lounge helps people grow financially, personally, and professionally using practical real world strategies. Help people take control of their money, provide business growth strategies, develop leadership and mindset, practical world tools, and create a space for transformation.

Part of our bigger mission tied with our free community space and basically came about because I was doing financial coaching, business coaching and this and that, and it was, I was all over the place, so I needed one central hub for everybody to find me. And the Prosperity Lounge was born. And it's, like I said, it's a free community space and I'm looking to connect with anybody that can help me grow.

Jim: Nice.

Joey Ruffalo: I do the show for me, I tell my guests.

Martha: That's fabulous.

Joey Ruffalo: In the process, my audience learns a little bit, but I do the show for me and I need to grow. I need to be the dumbest guy in the room, so help me grow.

Martha: And you got a front row seat for that, so that's awesome.

Kristen, tell us about you and the, again, remind everybody, Liberty Spenders is the name of your podcast, right?

Kristen Luidhardt: It is.

Martha: Fabulous. Go for it, the purpose and who you wanna meet with.

Kristen Luidhardt: Yeah, so we started the podcast, it was all about how to access a $5 trillion market of consumers who want to buy from businesses and brands that share their values, folks. So we're encouraging business owners to live boldly to understand their convictions and how to use that to market their business. We're using everything we've learned from political marketing, raising over $600 million for our clients. And so the people we're looking to talk at the conference, we have just learned there's so much about access and relationships, just like our faith.

And so we are looking to talk to bold leaders who are in growth mode who have something to share. Either it's about their faith and how God has been faithful to them in their business, but also share some tidbits about growing their business and strategies that they've used. Because for us it's all about relationships and proximity. And for me, I like to say you're only one relationship away from that breakthrough that God has for you in your business.

Martha: Very cool. So good last to you, Mike.

Mike Gilland: The name of the show is the Mike Gilland Show podcast.

Jim: Very creative.

Mike Gilland: It's really very creative. I know. (laughter) For a long time it was Afternoons with Mike, but my company encouraged me to rebrand it last year and so that's what we do. I've interviewed people from politicians, entertainers, actors, musicians, and business people, anyone. The idea with my program has always been we look at life through the lens of a biblical worldview. And everyone has a story. And when I'm at this particular event, I'm just looking for people to talk to, to hear their story because they have a story.

And it's, as you said, we are all called to be competent ministers of the gospel. And everyone that's there is going to have an angle that someone else can be encouraged by, and that's what we hope our show does.

Martha: That's fabulous. So all of these guys are looking for meeting everyone who attends the expo, so we're so excited about that.

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Jim: Okay. Kristen. Because you're on Podcast Row and we're assuming that all of you have made that deep dive to become a member of the US Christian Chamber, because that's why you're at the US Christian Chamber Expo coming up. Why did you - what attracted you to the US Christian Chamber?

Kristen Luidhardt: Honestly, we just talked to Krystal and it was outstanding. We had her on our show. But for me, I think, again, going back to relationships and proximity, we wanna be surrounded by other business leaders who have shared values, who are putting faith front and center and are trying to grow to have that great kingdom impact. And being a member and being at that event serves that purpose.

Martha: So good. Alright, Joey, to you, what attracts you to the US Christian Chamber of Commerce?

Joey Ruffalo: I'm gonna disrupt the apple cart here a little bit. I am not a member, as of right now.

Martha: We'll work on that. That's okay.

Joey Ruffalo: I will be soon, how about that? Just attracting, being around like-minded people, like I said, I like to be consider myself sometimes like the dumbest guy in the room when I, that's who I wanna surround myself with, that I could come with business acumen or faith or whatever.

So just surrounding myself with people that know a little bit more about things than I do that help me grow. And just, I'm tired of the crowds I was in that I wasn't, that it wasn't working. And I need to lean into this a little bit. So I figure this is a great place to be.

Jim: Your mind is going to be blown, Joey Ruffalo, because this event is unbelievable. The last one in 2024, unlike any marketplace focused event you've ever been involved in.

Scott Warren, Preach Where You Reach. Let's talk about this. Have you become a member of the US Christian Chamber yet?

Scott Warren: Yes. I'm part of the chamber and I had Krystal on the podcast at one point. And just being surrounded by and walking alongside those that are really just living out their faith in the marketplace, I want to be with those people that are passionate about their faith and passionate about not hiding their faith in the marketplace. And the US Christian Chamber of Commerce is exactly that place that you need to be if that's you, if you've got that same heart, that same alignment, that's where you need to be.

Martha: And Mike, to you finally, what's your attraction to the US Christian Chamber?

Mike Gilland: I met Krystal at our central Florida Christian Chamber, and then she became the president. She was one of my early guests on this program. And of course, it's just been such where we connected here locally with our radio station. We produce the Shepherd at Work, which is Krystal's, her program, her podcast. And it's not only on the air, but it's also in podcast form. So I've just been privileged to be a part of it from the beginning, was at the very first one of these back in the COVID days that she put on.

And she defied a lot of other activities and that were not having anything, and it was pretty exciting to see that take place back several years ago in the COVID years. So we're looking forward to it. I'm honored to be able to produce her show.

Martha: That's fabulous. So thanks for each of you for sharing that. And I hope that more than anything it's intriguing our listeners to lean in to click on the website link to go check out the event for themselves and to learn more about the US Christian Chamber of Commerce. All of you guys, I'm gonna, put you on the spot here.

If you've looked at the schedule, if you've read the emails about what's gonna be happening at the expo, if you have scoured the website for it - one thing the US Christian Chamber does really well is communicate. And so I would like for each of you to share a highlight of something that you are excited about experiencing at the expo at the end of April.

Joey, start with you. Do you have anything spotted yet that you're like, oh, I can't wait for this part of the event?

Joey Ruffalo: You caught me. I'm looking it up on my phone right now. (chuckling)

Martha: We'll give you a minute, Kristen. How about you?

Kristen Luidhardt: There's a number of great speakers, but again, for me, everything comes back to relationships being in the right room. Proximity is power. And so I know I'm gonna learn from a number of people. And so I've got, I'm excited for all the workshops, et cetera, whatever I can get done while also trying to do recording duties. But for me, it's who, the people I'm gonna meet, build relationships with, build trust, and those are the people that I'm gonna be building our businesses alongside and helping each other.

And that, again, the larger kingdom impact, i'm just thrilled to be part of it.

Jim: Mike, what are you looking forward to most?

Mike Gilland: First of all, just getting to talk to people on Podcast Row, this is gonna be something new and different where the emphasis is on those that are involved with the podcast. But there are other guests that are always there that I, so I've met over the years. I'm hoping it still works out that my friend Brandon West from Gainesville will be there. And this guy, his message is unreal. It's unbelievable. So I'm looking forward to that.

Jim: Yeah. From PHOS creative, right?

Mike Gilland: Yes. PHOS Creative.

Jim: Yep. That's right. Scott, what about you? What are you looking forward to most?

Scott Warren: Same, Brandon is an amazing guest as well, have had him on the show. For me it's a, it's about connecting with people, not only the people that are on this call right now, which I'm looking forward to, but also all of those people that have, as Mike said, they've got a story.

Everyone has this story, and so I'm looking forward to connecting with some folks that are willing to be vulnerable, open up their heart, talk about their own testimony and then also let us in on how they incorporate their faith in the work that they do.

Martha: Yeah.

Joey Ruffalo: But also looking forward to some of the labs that are happening. So all kinds of things. Always great to hear the speakers and hear a fresh perspective as well.

Martha: Definitely. Alright, Joey, do you see anything? You scope anything out?

Joey Ruffalo: Yes. I remember now. It's definitely, Scott definitely triggered the lab part. So it's the two labs that I'm gonna be attending is the AI Innovation Lab. I'm definitely looking forward to that one. And then the Kingdom currency lab, in that money space. I'm definitely looking forward to the lab stuff.

Jim: What about you, Martha?

Martha: I have some huge highlights that I wanna say, and a couple of them are the fact that this is not an event to pick and choose, and to attend and go away and not take part in all of it. This is an event you wanna be there when it opens during the ribbon cutting and stay till the end and participate in as much as you can, but also allow yourself the time to meet new people, to chat across from what are gonna be good cookies this year, Jim. For those who have followed us over the years, a couple years ago, the gluten-free were not that big of a highlight, so we're looking forward to great food at the hotel, great conversation, great community and also realizing that everyone in the room is really, if you come with a posture like Joey, where you wanna learn where you want to be influenced by what the Holy Spirit is going to do, then you'll be in the right place.

How about you, Jim? Finish it up.

Jim: I am excited about the economic breakouts. I'm really excited to just hear some kingdom perspective on it. I play in that world a lot, but more than anything, I'm looking forward to meeting every one of you listening and the four of you that are here on our podcast today. The relationships are fun and it's great to go and be encouraged.

It's gonna be sad. I'm already not looking forward to the 25th of April when we all leave because it is gonna be an incredible event and we invite everybody listening today, get signed up today. I'll guarantee you, but not your money back, 'cause we can't give you the money back, that this will be an event that will rock your world. You'll have a perspective on Jesus in the marketplace that you never ever had before. And you will see the act, the practical application of living out your faith no matter what your job is, in a way that you've never seen it before. And so we invite you to come.

Kristen Luidhardt, Mike Gilland. Joey Ruffalo, and Scott Warren, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today. Thanks for sharing in a rapid fashion. Some of you are a little slower, honestly, than we should have. (laughter) Thank you all for being with us today on iWork4Him. We look forward to meeting each one of you face to face. Thanks for taking time today.

Kristen Luidhardt: Thanks, Jim and Martha, for the leadership and inviting us.

Jim: You bet. You bet.

Mike Gilland: Yes. Thank you so much.

Scott Warren: Thank you.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, and our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

3/25/26 - 2139: How One Couple Turns Everyday Life into Ministry

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: On the outside they look like any other suburban Fort Wayne, Indiana, couple. But underneath all that suburban cloaking lies two Secret Kingdom agents. Lindsay Stump parades around at suburbia in a minivan, two kids, mom and a wife. But on Instagram she has almost 3000 followers. And on YouTube, over 21,000 subscribers all tuned in on her Organized to Save channels teaching Kingdom home principles to the world, but that's not all.

Lindsay's Clark Kent is Jared Stump - by day, a lifecycle manager for Depuy Synthes, where he uses his engineering skills to manage fabricated replacement body parts to ensure they're perfect every time. By night, Jared is a pastor, mentor, visionary, all while posing as a typical suburban dad, mowing the lawn, playing with the kids, and lending a hand to his wife's countless DIY projects.

This amazing couple has figured out that no matter where they go and what they do, they're in the service of the king and they serve at the pleasure of his direction. It's not often we meet a power couple like this, but this couple is poised to change the world in the name of Jesus and we're here to hear their story. Jared and Lindsay Stump, welcome to iWork4Him.

Lindsay Stump: Thanks for having us.

Jim: Yeah.

Martha: He's like Clark Kent, huh?

Jared Stump: I dunno how to live up to that intro. That's amazing. (laughter)

Jim: Hey, so here's a cool part about every time I bring a first time guest on the show, we always ask them to share their Jesus story. So Lindsay, share us your Jesus story.

Lindsay Stump: Yeah. So I grew up in a Christian home, as you all know, as my loving aunt and uncle. And I really, at a young age, really dove into God and accepted early, but probably didn't really, obviously, understand too much of it at that age. So as I got older, I really determined what that meant for me.

And probably high school I would say, was when that really started being a bigger impact. And then going off to college and just continuing on in life, it's just continued to grow and become closer with God. And it's been really cool even this past year just really getting plugged in with our church here and just seeing how God's using the gifts that he's given us to be able to give back to our community.

Jim: So Jared, what about you?

Jared Stump: Yeah, there's been, what, two different times? So when I was around six - I also grew up in the church. Family very much focused on Christ. So it was a just a matter of time and thankfully had really influential grandparents that modeled things well for my parents as well.

So there was age six, the first prayer that didn't know what I was doing. But then when I turned 12, I was at a summer camp and that's when I realized okay, this is a lot bigger of a deal than I probably knew what it was at six. And ever since the rededication, if you wanna get Baptist about it. (chuckles) And so that was where it started and then that grew into a journey that every year I feel like I'm learning a little bit more about who God is.

Martha: That's so good. And I hope that our listeners are hearing that one of the things you both said, you talked about, like in that middle school, high school age range when you're really thinking in new dimensions. That's so pivotable to have those opportunities where you get to be exposed in to a challenge or a commitment that can really change the trajectory, even if you're on the right trajectory, to really make it solidify. Okay, so let's talk about when the two of you met. Lindsay, you wanna share it?

Lindsay Stump: Yeah. Okay. So we met in high school. So we actually met in chemistry class,

Jim: Oh, so there is some chemistry going on. (laughter) Would there, we like mixed two chemicals together and there was an explosion of love or what?

Martha: Yeah.

Lindsay Stump: Yeah. The story goes, I heard at a football game that this guy that sits behind me in chemistry thought I was cute. So I was like who are we talking about? 'cause there was a couple guys behind me, so I had to figure out who this Jared Stump guy was. But it, yeah, it was just, I would say it was pretty quick connection there between the two of us. And I'd say we knew pretty early on that God put us together for a reason.

Jim: Jared, do you wanna add a different color to that story?

Jared Stump: Yeah, every time I go through this story, I'm blown away 'cause this started literally on a tennis bus and I told a friend or two that, Hey, I'm thinking about taking this girl out for a date. They knew me for years, and they're like, no.

Martha: Great support system.

Jim: Choose your friends wisely, people. (laughter)

Jared Stump: There's like literally three or four different guys concocting a plan on how to set this up. So it was within, I wanna say a week or two, like they cornered her at the football game. She didn't really see me in the concession stand where I was working for the tennis team.

And then the other part of it, right? She shared a lot of the rest of it, but when we hugged after homecoming, I was telling her this the other night, I was like, this is it. I think this is it. And here we are. Like I, it just is insane to think like that hug is what kind of sealed it, but yeah, I guess I've never questioned it since.

Martha: And knowing the two of you though, I'm guessing it was a lot deeper than the hug. Not to get too deep into this. Talk about that, like how did your relationship with the Lord play into you guys really knowing that you were meant for each other?

Lindsay Stump: Yeah, I mean we were both very much involved at our churches and stuff too. We went to different churches but we would often go to each other's church events and stuff. So I think just having that aspect really, yeah, like we knew that we wanted God to be in the center of our relationship. That was like very much a priority for who we were looking for in a partner, even at that young age.

Jim: But how old was this young age?

Lindsay Stump: We were juniors in high school.

Jared Stump: 17.

Lindsay Stump: Yeah.

Jim: Sounds pretty old to me.

Martha: Young. Very young. Once you become a parent, that's very young.

Jim: You're older than we were when we met.

Jared Stump: So I was pretty lame. Like for the longest time. I didn't have any girlfriends. That's why the kids on the tennis bus, they're just like, they know. But at the root of it was prayer for the right person.

Lindsay Stump: Yeah,

Jared Stump: and it shows in the fruit of our lives. Like he already knew. I can still specifically remember praying for my, the seat in my car - to sound ridiculous - but whoever sits in that seat in the future. And so it's really impactful to think through these questions in preparation for this. This is insane. God knew. He had every step planned, he knew. Like when I found out she was a pastor's kid, I'm like, what?

Martha: And the reason that we're wanting to delve into this because number one, you guys have been very intentional in your own relationship starting at a very young age. And now in this greater state of maturity that you find yourself in now, you have carried that same intentionality with the people put around you as well. So I wanna ask you this question. Tell us about how you guys are able to encourage other couples the same way that you are working on your relationship now as a married couple.

Lindsay Stump: Yeah, I think in our home, we try to have a very much open door policy. We love having as many people over as we can and just being able to be in community with people, whether it be through our small group or if it's just having somebody from the neighborhood or church over and everything and just being able to make our home feel like a safe space where we can connect with each other.

And so that's been really cool to be able to have that. And specifically separately too. We've been really diving into giving back at church and I'm involved with the women's ministry and Jared's involved with the men's ministry, and so it's been cool to see how God's been using that as well. And I actually was just able to share some stuff from that Jared and I worked through together. We do a big - I say every year, but the last two years - we've done a big getaway weekend together where we've just gotten together and talked to God about where he sees our life and what he wants to do with us for the next year.

And I was able to share some of that stuff with the women's ministry team as well. So that was really cool to be able to incorporate stuff that God's been sharing with us as a couple together.

Jared Stump: He brings it, right? The opportunities are there and I think we've been more serious the last probably year or so and finally being together - maybe that'll come up in some of the other questions - but just being aligned. We've talked about that for years. Being on the same page as a couple and just what, last October? We were leaving a church plant, Lindsay's old school. So there's a lot of nostalgia there. I look at her and I'm like, are we, is this where we're going after just finding this other church? It was a plant from a different church. And at that moment I'm like, all right, God, I can sense that you're actually bringing us together to do these things as a team.

And I realized hearing other people talk about it, that we've been able to share that testimony. I keep hearing people say, don't hold that back. Share that. Let other people be encouraged by your lives. It doesn't always have to look like a small group, reading the Bible together. So it's just the small opportunities are like everywhere now and the intentional ones and the ministries at church and at work and the household for the kids. I love the kids are picking it up too. That's normal. That's normal. Yeah, it's normal to have healthy family relationships.

 (chuckling)

Martha: Yes. Yes. That's so good. And the example that you're setting for them, you don't have to always use words. They see it and you're modeling it for 'em. God designed us for community and it is important for couples to find a place to be encouraged and challenged, like you were just talking about.

The same is true for all of us as workers. How fantastic to have a place to get together, be challenged to live out your faith at work, and then to meet others who are doing the same thing. And that's what you'll find when you attend a couple different events this year that Jim and I are gonna be at.

You can choose both of them or one of them, but I highly encourage you to check them out on our events page. One is the US Christian Chamber of Commerce swc2026.com for the expo happening there and the National Faith and Work Summit. Two different places in the country: Orlando and Cincinnati. Go to iWork4Him.com/events and we hope to see you soon.

Jim: All right, Lindsey, you're a wife of 16 years, a mom of two, an Instagram influencer and a YouTube sensation. How in the world do you get it all done?

Lindsay Stump: I would say, for one, I don't get it all done. (laughter) It's because I try to focus on progress over perfection.

Jim: As everybody looks in their background, realizing, yeah, that looks pretty perfect. So she's really good at that.

Martha: That might be a done project.

Lindsay Stump: What you don't see off screen is all the things that I shoved into the corner.

Martha: A true Instagram influencer. (laughter)

Lindsay Stump: But yeah, honestly, i've always had a love for organization and productivity and so those, I've just been able to carry that through in my life and just picked up practices that have helped me be able to manage all of the things.

But I would also say different seasons also call for different priorities. And I've recognized that God's brought me through those different times. Specifically, an example was with our daughter's surgery a couple years ago. That was very much a season where I had to drop a lot of my Organized to Save stuff to be able to focus on our family. And so we're in another season of transition coming up here. Both of my kids are likely gonna be in school all day long, so my days, I'm gonna be completely lost and wondering why the house is so quiet. But it's, yeah, so I've just worked through the different seasons and figure it out what works for me.

Martha: That's so good. And I can vouch for the fact that if anybody follows you on social media at Organized to Save, they're gonna see, you're always like, okay, here's my progress that I'm making on this project. And so I do encourage people to go check it out because Lindsay, you and Jared, 'cause I know that you are the sidekick in getting lumber and all the other things that you're doing and I know you're a great team, but you, there's always a project going on at your house that's in the process.

Jim: I got this image of you in tights, like batman, robin kinda thing. (laughing)

Martha: That's a sidekick?

Jim: Yeah, that's a sidekick. Lindsay, Martha and I got our desire for organizing because both of our family members tended not to be very organized, specifically mothers. But your mom's an organized freak so where did you get your passion for Organized to Save?

Lindsay Stump: Yeah, honestly growing up, like I was right there with her. I was always reorganizing my room. She would find me like tinkering with, reorganizing all my hair stuff in my drawer or whatever. So I think, yeah, just I picked that up from a young age, just liking things to look pretty and making sure everything has a home. And honestly like with that, I tried to help my friends and my family and everything and really found out, like I liked being able to help people to figure out that they can organize on a budget, right?

Because that's a big thing. Like you don't have to spend so much money on all these fancy bins or whatever, but if you don't have a plan for what you're doing with those fancy bins, you're not gonna get anywhere.

Jim: Going to a container store - not a cheap trip.

Martha: Yeah, exactly. So I love this conversation because, you are a helper. You are a "I see a need and I wanna help other people with it." And that's one of the things you really do bring to the table. How does your faith impact the digital influence that you have?

Lindsay Stump: Yeah, with everything that I put out there, I try to be a positive, be positive with it. And I'll still share the things that go wrong with the project or whatever and how I'm gonna make it through. But I really want my platform to be a positive place where people can go for encouragement or to get ideas. But a lot of what I share is also about stewarding well what you already have, right? Talking about that low budget, big impact for your family, and just trying to figure out ways to make your home function better so that you can live a better life within your walls.

Martha: Yeah. Who knew that she could do all these projects with that cabinet that she's been having in the corner for five years? And it's like we're going to use the lumber and make it happen. So you're good at that.

Jim: Jared, when you married Lindsay, you didn't know she was so handy. You just got lucky. Which one of the her projects has been your favorite project? 'Cause you're almost done with the whole house now, so you're al you're gonna have to sell and buy a new house.

Martha: Time to start over. (laughter)

Jim: It's time to start over. What's your favorite project? Really quick, what's your favorite project?

Jared Stump: Probably the current one. We've got a mixture of contractors that helped get it started, but we just put tile in Saturday.

Lindsay Stump: We were working on our master bathroom.

Martha: The master bathroom. Remember we went and looked at it, that they were like gonna work on it.

Lindsay Stump: Yep. Yes. This is biggest project to date. And it's definitely been the one that's pushed the budget, but we've saved up for it. So it was all in God's timing of getting it done.

Jim: All right, so you pose as an average suburban mom. Man, that's a pretty clever deal. Did you know that you had the power to cause people to change their lives and follow what God has gifted you to do at the same time. Did you ever imagine your position in society today?

Lindsay Stump: No. I'm not a very outgoing, outspoken person. It takes me a while to get to know people and stuff and then me to open up a little bit, but for some reason on camera I was able to do that a little bit better. And so it's been cool to see how, even though I am in real life not the most outgoing person, on camera, I can still get my point across to people and be able to help teach them that they can do these things too.

Yeah I never imagined that I would do this. This was never something that I was like, yeah, when I grow up, I wanna be a YouTuber, like all the kids now.

Jim: That's a good one.

Martha: No, but I will tell you, the other day, Uncle Jim saw a saw and said, see, that's the kind Lindsay has. And I'm like, oh, I suppose you have to have one now too, right?

Jim: Yes. That's what it, that track saw that you have. Oh, I need one of those. Especially for the next project we're working on.

We're having a great conversation tonight with Lindsay and Jared as they're living out their God-given purpose in life. One thing that can really get us off track from our purpose is a problem on our computers that's caused by a virus or an intruder.

SaferNet is who we depend on at iWork4Him and at home all over the place, on all of our devices. Our cell phones, laptops, desktops. Yes, we still have a desktop. Yeah, we do. And our tablets. Go to SaferNet.com. Let them know that iWork4Him sent you and they're gonna give you peace of mind because their VPN is bulletproof and they can protect you no matter where you go, even if you use your computer on a cruise ship. With this peace of mind, you can get back to what God has given you for your purpose and let SaferNet focus on theirs.

Martha: All right, so Jared, we're gonna spend a little time talking about you. So engineer by day, pastor to others day and night under a not so secret cloak of innocence. I'm not sure why you said that...

Jim: I was playing the superhero thing.

Martha: Oh, okay. I'm playing along with this here. When did you realize that you had been given a special ability to touch lives of those around you? Because you have this very special love and concern for others.

Jared Stump: Yeah. I think high school is where it really came. It came out like the relationships that I formed in high school. I had moved quite a bit growing up. So high school was the first time I had enough commonality there, or enough experience with the same friends for more than a year to realize - like me laughing a lot, like if you've probably seen right in this interview already, there's a part of me that just builds trust with others. So they like to share. I always, we always joke about it like anyone will come up to me and share their life story. And it doesn't matter if it's a taxi driver or if it's somebody on an airplane or at the ice cream place where I spent a lot of time at.

 (laughter)

Martha: Very convenient.

Jared Stump: But the capstone of all of it was when we started dating that's when, and I'm not saying this to be sappy, right? 'Cause she's here next to me, but we had such a strong connection and it was founded like on Christ, right? We didn't know it at the time, how strong it was, but that in itself was insane because even my mom didn't believe me when I said, Hey, I'm going to a girl's house for her birthday.

She's, you're doing what? And it's just that dynamic, right? Like where I realized okay there's a gift here inside of me. I didn't know all the things that he's now shown me 20 years later. But it's that probably where it came alive was when we started dating.

Jim: She completes you.

Jared Stump: Yeah.

Jim: And having Lindsay by your side makes you be a better man and wanna be a better man. I get that. I get that.

Martha: And it's more than a sappy line.

Jim: It is way more than a sappy line. It's an incredible experience when your best friend is your wife and they bring out the best in you, and you want to be a better man every day. I get that.

By day, you also manage people that report to you. How does your secret power of people coming to you and say, "my name is Jared and I'm here to listen to all your problems," how does that impact your work?

Jared Stump: This took a little bit to think about because I've had so many incredible opportunities to share encouragement, like some pretty insane things with people where, you just dunno what's going on in their life. They bring it into the workplace, right? Like the whole mission, what's going on in their lives isn't necessarily always at the church. Like it's outside of it, right? If I'm gonna really live into this here, so it's changed every bit of my approach. Every year I learn.

You get a little more comfortable with the same common issues people are going through, but then there's some times where it's like, they've trusted me for these five minutes and i'm stewarding their career, but I'm also having an impact on them going home at the end of the day, so like what they do after work.

And so with that stewardship comes a lot of responsibility that God, he just gives me the strength. Every promotion I've ever had, every new job I've taken on, he's prepared the way for things that I just, I didn't think I had in me. And then we get into it, it's oh we're talking about this? This isn't even work related.

Martha: Okay. On iWork4Him, we talk all the time about that tension between our work that we think is outside of the church versus ministry. And I just frankly wanna know have you ever struggled with your work that you were trained for from college and have as your job and going into a ministry position. Have you ever had that tension? And when did you finally figure out that you are already in full-time ministry?

Jared Stump: Yeah, this one is probably once a year, like the last 20 years. It started in college, right? I went to an engineering school. She was at a bible school, right? And I remember halfway through it, I'm like, God, am I supposed to go be with Lindsay at that college?

And I'm glad I didn't make that decision. But then I've realized I have a pattern where every year I'm like, am I supposed to be a pastor? Am I supposed to be doing something different from an entrepreneurial aspect? And something you guys have been very influential on too is guarding my heart with Lindsay inclusive of that decision.

So I may be 10, 20 miles ahead saying, Hey, come on Lindsay. This is where we're going, to realize like we're not on the same page. And so that's, thankfully God has protected me with things. I've heard that theme for strongly for over a decade now. Nope. Make sure you guys are together. So every time God slowed us down.

Jim: Isn't it true you're already in full-time ministry?

Jared Stump: Yes.

Jim: Yeah. There you go. Just wanna make sure you heard that. You're in full-time ministry. All right. The two of you are examples for couples that are almost 40 everywhere.

Martha: He's protecting your age.

Jim: I'm protecting your age. (laughter) I do know it, just in case you're wondering. How can these couples listening today keep their faith strong, their families intact, and still impact their part of the world and get it all done like you guys are getting it done?

Lindsay Stump: Yeah, I think for us open communication has been one of the biggest factors in making sure that we're coming together, making decisions together, but through praying about it.

Jim: Praying about it separately?

Lindsay Stump: No.

Jared Stump: Both.

Lindsay Stump: In separate and together. All of it. Yeah. We don't make any major decision without talking to the other person about it. We are making sure that we're sticking together as a team. We're making sure that we're raising our kids together in Christ setting, creating the habits of prayer and devotion with them. That's been a really cool thing to see with our kids.

Jared Stump: And a lot of times we've talked even more recently, right? There's this level, it's like, what's going on? Like, how did you? They see the iceberg methodology. They see what's above the water. The last 15 years has come with all sorts of highs and lows.

So I think at the end of the day, it's realizing we're a team. And that is, I forget where that insight came from, but I know early on in our marriage I remember someone saying with projects, with everything you're doing, just remember like end of the day, you guys are on the same team. So you can't kick each other off the team. You gotta, at the end of the day, come together.

Jim: So you're a team, but I never see you on the videos on Organized to Save. Is he, does he get it?

Lindsay Stump: He's been there occasionally.

Jim: Okay.

Jared Stump: I'm wearing a green suit.

Jim: Oh, okay. (laughter)

Martha: So he doesn't show up in the green screen.

Jim: Lindsay and Jared, we're so grateful that you guys came on iWork4Him to share your story, to just give people a glimpse of that, Hey, here's a typical suburban couple, making an impact and recognizing that God's chosen you for that, but chosen you for each other, for your ministry and your work at the same time. We're grateful that you shared it with us today and we're super excited for our audience to hear all this. But thanks for being on iWork4Him today.

Jared Stump: Thanks for having us.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, and our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

3/18/26 - 2138: How to Start a Workplace Bible Study

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: When Martha and I find a resource out there that we feel will benefit our audience, we want to get it out there right away. Every workplace believer needs to be involved in a discipleship mentoring kind of program to gain consistent encouragement and biblical background for the ministry you've been called to at work. Only every once in a while do we find a great resource and we just can't schedule the interview in a timely manner.

I'm sorry, but Biblical Business Training or BBT has been out there for over a decade, and it's not because we haven't been trying. Today, you're gonna hear all about it. Biblical Business Training has a variety of discipleship options so that everyone in their workplace has a training for them. From online studies to a mobile app, BBT is available to you.

Lori Drury is here today to tell us all about it and to finally succumb to an interview at iWork4Him. Lori, welcome to iWork4Him.

Lori Drury: Thank you for that warm and long overdue welcome. It's God's timing that we're finally here talking to each other. I appreciate all that you all are doing and your persistence as well, so

Jim: I know, I don't give up easily, that's for sure.

Yeah. Alright, so we always start off every show with a brand new guest asking this question. What's the story about you becoming a Jesus follower?

Lori Drury: That's a pretty easy one because it started at birth. I'm a, as they say, a cradle Catholic. And my faith foundation was instilled in me early on, generations of Catholic families on both sides.

And church was a non-negotiable. You also had it in Catholic school during the week, and so it was just part of my life. I didn't know anything else, if that tells you anything. My family always, prayed, my grandmother served at church. All of the things.

And so I was set on the right footing. I also had my share of straying away when I was independent in college, but found my way back and my husband comes from that same faith foundation. And so we build that for our kids now.

Martha: That's so good. Thank you for sharing that.

Lori Drury: Yeah.

Martha: Jim and I were, we were reminiscing with you about the fact that, we actually initially got connected to BBT before you were even there. How did you get connected to BBT?

Lori Drury: That goes back even further than what we talked about.

Martha: So I thought you were gonna say further than birth. That was your other story, right? (chuckles)

Lori Drury: So when I was working in academics I got to know a lot of the different alumni and that's where I met the BBT founder Brandon Mann. And so through our connection at Mizzou, we knew each other. And when I was looking to change from academics to corporate and move from Columbia, Missouri, to St. Louis, I called him up and said, where should I be looking for places to work? You know what I do and my personality.

And he said, come work for me in commercial real estate. And I kinda looked at him like, I have a marketing degree. I don't know anything about real estate and finance and any of that. And as God's path, right? He had us meet and I went to work in commercial real estate and watched how Bible study in the workplace was changing Brandon and how he how he came to work and how when I would come to him with a problem, he'd say, how can I serve you today?

And it all came from God calling him and another coworker to start a Bible study in a corporate office space. Doesn't usually happen, right? And so I watched this transformation and watched how God called him away from corporate to start this ministry. And I stayed in touch because I was doing Bible study with his wife and getting updates on how the ministry was doing. I was sharing with what the growing company was doing and my role as it was ever changing in the marketing field.

And so it wasn't until there were several mergers that happened within the company that just kinda lost my purpose. And as, as my Bible study group was praying for Brandon's wife to leave the ministry and bring someone else new in, as she helped him start it, and then I was praying for what do I do next? Do I stay with the company? Do I go find something else? God called us together and said Lori should be working at BBT. All those things I learned along the path that can be applied to BBT.

So think of BBT as a startup or a small business, always growing, right? We apply the biblical principles, but with business and business leader mindset. All the people that come and work with us have corporate backgrounds and ministry background. So we all bring a wealth of knowledge to this organization. And so that was my path. I brought all the things that I learned through academics, through corporate, and applied it to a nonprofit in a way that people I think forget that nonprofits really, it's a business, right? You're running a business and you're always looking for funding and so on. So it's really at the core of that. But that was my path.

Jim: So talk about your role at Biblical Business Training, BBT, as we keep saying, but I wanna make sure people understand what it stands for, and then the mission of BBT.

Lori Drury: Yes. I came in as the communications director when I made the leap from corporate and that grew into learning under Brandon, the founder, as the executive director and CEO at the time, and then also another director that came in. And just, I wore so many hats within the organization. If it wasn't curriculum or coaching, I pretty much grabbed everything else that wasn't the CEO role either. And what that turned into was when the executive director and CEO role opened, we were going through the strategic planning process with an advisor of ours.

And what I realized was God was calling me into that role. And as we, as the team and I were going through the process, I realized that - actually, I didn't realize, God said - you can do this role. And of course I pushed back at first and he pursued.

Jim: So you're in good company.Moses pushed back too.

Lori Drury: Exactly. And Brandon and I were reminiscing about the 20 years plus that we've known each other and how he came to be starting BBT. Even starting the Bible study, we both realized we resisted it at first, and of course God pursues in his plan.

And it just came to us being obedient. But when I actually brought it up to the team that I was going to interview for the role, they said we hoped you would figure this out. So again, I was the last to realize that.

Martha: Okay. So your role now though is CEO and executive director, is that correct? That is awesome.

Lori Drury: I came as the executive director and CEO in 2021.

Martha: And then just share with us what the mission of BBT is for people to understand what it really boils down to.

Lori Drury: Absolutely. So our mission is helping people apply biblical principles to work. And we do that through small group Bible study and we actually call that Faith for Work. And then our vision from that then is that you grow in relationship with Christ and expand God's kingdom. And then we call that Leadership for Life And we can do these things because we promise the Bible, application, community, and leadership to all of our groups and to all the content we provide.

Jim: That's a lot of stuff. We're gonna get into those details here in a second.

Martha: So listeners, if you've hung around with us for any time here at iWork4Him, you know that we truly value the mission of those that we invest in. Not just our investment dollars, but our spending dollars, our time, our energy, and our resources.

And that's why we carefully vet our show sponsors and proudly present them to you, our listeners. All of our sponsors align with our mission, offer excellent products and services, and have a Kingdom perspective. Check them out all online at iWork4Him.com/sponsors.

Jim: All right, so talk to us about the different offerings of BBT, Lori.

Lori Drury: So we call them internally the four Cs, but they are curriculum, connectivity, coaching, and contribution. And so curriculum's pretty easy to understand. We provide Bible study materials that are biblically based, application focused - application to work, but also to life. That's what happens.

And those studies then are delivered through a technology that we created with the help of a local developer to connect that group, deliver the content, create some easy buttons to facilitate those Bible study groups. And then you get a bonus of a coach, a real person, right?

There's a lot of places where you can go buy content or download it but you don't get somebody to walk alongside you. So we get a lot of questions of, how do I start this? What do I do here? We're studying this, but we wanna talk about this next. Do you have a study on that? Our coach is our global leadership director, and he can help guide with studies, with group dynamics and just help people along the way.

And then contribution just means that all of these resources are provided because we have donors that support the mission. Whether those are people who believe in the mission and wanna pay it forward, or groups who wanna pay it forward for more content for their groups or for future groups. And so that can look like just a one-time gift out of supporting the mission or it can be monthly. And so it really is the lifeblood of how we can continue to provide resources for groups.

And then I always add in another one because it's part of our promises, but it also just encapsulates all of this is community - you have a small group that they share prayer requests, they hold each other accountable. They support each other, they follow up with each other. And that's the essence of how these groups function. And then they also learn about other groups. We have community events and so on. And so it's all part of the package. It's a benefit, a blessing of what these groups come together.

Martha: Okay. So the groups you are talking about, are they in person, online? Some of both? 'Cause I believe you have online studies available as well, but what, like for the person listening and going, okay, how this, how do I get involved? How does this really apply to me? Tell us about that.

Lori Drury: Yes. So a lot of people think that we do the studies for them, and that's not the case. We equip people to go out and study in their offices with coworkers, study at the coffee shop next to their office because policy says, this may not be available in the office space, can be done with peers.

All of those things, whatever the group looks like, I always say it's like snowflakes, right? No two are the same because the makeup really brings the essence. But those groups can be completely online. Some are a blend of online and in person. Some are completely in person based on the group's needs and wants.

When COVID hit, a majority of our groups were meeting in person and I remember sending out a note the week everything shut down to say, don't forget, you can use these platforms, these online platforms to be meeting when we can't be in person. And so we see a blend. We see a blend of online, in person, some that were in person, but when they went online. They can't be in person again because they're across the world.

Martha: Sure.

Lori Drury: And so it's an interesting dynamic of how that changes. But the beauty of the technology is it can be anywhere.

Martha: So let me understand this, 'cause I'm the person who's I'm thinking all the questions that anybody listening might be asking. Is it available for people to join an existing one, or are you trying to equip people to start their own because maybe they're in a situation where they don't know yet what that would look like in their own space or whatever, but they want to start getting fed and learn? What does that look like?

Lori Drury: Our typical group model is that someone has this put on their heart by God. It's a calling. It's a, it's an idea. And they start it on their own. So next step would be finding that co-leader, maybe they have that person in mind already. And then our coach can help them get started.

Jim: Okay.

Lori Drury: We also have groups that they're meeting, but they're looking for content. So it's really easy to plug in our content into an existing group.

Jim: Oh.

Lori Drury: We do have people that say, Hey, I'm not in a season where I can start a group, could I join one? Gets tricky because groups get really personal and very vulnerable. And so placing a new person is difficult.

We do have a handful of groups that we, they welcome the opportunity to have new people and they love it. We also started something new couple years ago called sample group meetings. And so where people can come taste and see, if you will, what a group is about.

How do you get into the technology? How do you run a group? What are the questions I need to be asking that maybe somebody else in the group are asking? And sometimes we even pair up people who may be entrepreneurs that they say I don't know who I should be asking, but I want other entrepreneurs in my group so they become co-leaders of a new group.

And so we do have a running weekly sample group meeting that people can join and learn the process.

Jim: So people are getting involved and they've got lots of different ways to get involved, and I wanna talk about more of that in a second, but speaking of get involved, it's not too late to get involved in a couple of different events that Martha and I are gonna be attending and MCing this year.

One of those events is the Spiritual World Citizens 2026 Expo in Orlando for the US Christian Chamber of Commerce. Their conference title is "Yes&," for an immersive three day experience where Christian leaders unite to break barriers, build bold businesses, and advance the kingdom. We're your MCs once again. I can't wait to see you at Orlando Register using the code iWork4Him for a 20% off your ticket at swc2026.com. We're also gonna be involved in the Faith and Work Summit at Cincinnati. Tell you about that in a future episode.

Lori, you've also got networking, which is notated on the site, and coaching, which you've already mentioned. That, I'm assuming, just shows itself as people are getting more and more involved. How many groups you got? First of all, how many groups? Let's talk about the expanse of BBT as it's grown over the last, more than a decade. How many different groups you got?

Lori Drury: We have seasons of when groups are active. Some are active more so in the winter or fall than they are in the summer. But so right now I would say 65 active groups. But we have since our technology launched in 2020 we've had 237 groups launch.

Jim: And not just in the states, all over the world.

Lori Drury: Correct. Yes. I always say we're from coast to coast in the US. We have a group in Puerto Rico. We have some groups in Africa and several groups in India, plus members of groups all over the country or all over the world.

Martha: All right, so let's talk about impact. It's been around for a while, so what are you hearing from people as the biggest maybe couple of impacts that are happening in their own lives as a result of being involved with BBT?

Lori Drury: So that is the greatest part of my job, is to be able to hear how, first of all, people come to us, right? Someone schedules a meeting with me or my coach, and we get to hear the story of how God called them there. That's just the first step. And then for instance, I had a call with a woman in the Philippines that said, oh, you should meet my friend Peresh in India. He runs a ministry there. And I said, I know Peresh. He's a partner of ours.

And it's just the fun small world that God connects. But then what happens is God works in and through those individuals, those groups, and I've heard lifesaving stories of a woman who left Bible study and something didn't seem right and the leader walked with her to her car. Come to find out she was having a stroke and she was there to be with her, and reach out for obviously medical assistance.

But there's also things like, we've had a group where someone confided that they have a sales guy that really wasn't a great fit, but he was their top sales guy and he didn't know what to do. He wasn't a culture fit, and the group held him to it and said, I think you gotta let him go. And it was a very hard decision, 'cause again, he's a top producer and with support and accountability, the guy came back and said, I let him go and thank you for the prayer.

So we see these stories all the time. When we release new curriculum - we had a burnout study that came out last year around this time. And one of our groups studied it. And the leader said, none of us realized we were this close to burnout or in burnout until we studied this. And we're not experts. We are not providing clinical..

Jim: It's good not to be an expert at burnout. (laughter)

Before we run outta time, I wanna make sure we hear from you, you've been involved in BBT now for a decade. How has being involved with Biblical Business Training impacted Lori Drury?

Lori Drury: Oof. A ton. My husband will say - he was actually the one that encouraged that I should come to BBT. So I give him all that credit. But he will be the first to say, it has been such a blessing to our family. If you ask my boys what does mom do for a living? They'd probably say she reads the Bible all day. Again, that is a ripple effect. They see that. They know that Thursday mornings are my Bible study days.

And so that impact is, I'm more faithful and a better Christian because I get to hear from other people, see their faith, be encouraged by them, be inspired by them, want to be better because of them. I get to experience all different faith denominations and even some who are not of the same Christian background. And it's incredible, the impact it has on me. And I'll be sitting in mass on Sunday and nodding my head at Scripture, the homily, and my son's " what are you agreeing with here?" Like they'll ask me these things.

Jim: Oh, I like that.

Lori Drury: And so it's my wide range of knowledge because I get to interact with so many people, but also just a deeper faith because I can just absorb from others. And then again, that ripple effect comes to my family and my boys.

Martha: That's so good.

Jim: So you're next gen, as we would like to call it. You're part of that next generation of young leaders that are growing up in the marketplace, and you're the future generation of the leaders of our country. How is BBT impacting the next gen? Because a lot of times with Bible studies, there's a lot of old guys sitting in a bakery having a cup of coffee. But that's not what this is. So tell us how you guys are impacting those 20 to 40 in the workplace.

Lori Drury: That has been the most fun transformation I've seen, is how it has gone from the traditional executive in a coffee shop to young leaders whose companies bless this type of thing in their business, and they can come together with their peers who are trying to climb that ladder and do the corporate thing, and they can come together in faith.

That, that wave of young people really stepping out in faith and it's incredible for them to be able to take something like Bible study and dig into it and make an impact in the workplace. So we see it all the time. That's the fun of who I get to meet is you see all ends of the spectrum, all the different levels of work and ages and diversity is wide ranging and who I get to hang out with.

Martha: That's very encouraging. And so I am imagining that we have listeners right now that are saying, okay, I hear that this is something that, you know, is doable, tangible, God's putting on my heart. The resources are there, the platforms created. What is it next? What do they do to get involved, Lori, what's their next step?

Lori Drury: Absolutely. I always say if I can do it, anybody can do it, because we all have busy schedules. Best step, now, take note of this. Our website is a mouthful, just like Biblical Business Training.

Martha: We'll put it in the show notes. That's okay.

Lori Drury: Perfect. But come visit our website. On our main page we have everything you need to know about the sample group. Come try it out with us. You'll have Bible study with Jay, our global leadership director and myself. We just had one today, every Wednesday at noon central time. So join us for that. Find out more information on the website. We have lots of studies there to view.

Also LinkedIn is a great place to find us. We post a lot about upcoming events and you'll see different segments on groups or they posted about my 10 year anniversary with BBT, so you can learn a little bit more about me.

Martha: Awesome.

Lori Drury: But yeah, I mean our website and LinkedIn are the best places, and I just encourage you, don't overthink it. Just jump in, ask us questions, join us for those sample groups, and we can help you through it.

Jim: Biblical Business Training, online@b-b-t.org. And as Lori said, LinkedIn is the best place not only to get ahold of Biblical Business Training, but to find believers out there in the marketplace from all over the world. There are millions on LinkedIn. You can get connected there. Lori Drury, thank you very much for being on iWork4Him today.

Lori Drury: Thank you for having me, and thank you for your patience with me to get this scheduled. And I look forward to seeing you both at the Faith at Work Summit.

Jim: Very cool. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.