7/8/26 - 2154: Are You Two Feet In? Living with a Kingdom Mindset

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: Jesus talked more about the kingdom than he did about the church. Why? It must have been important, because even if the Lord's Prayer didn't mention the church, but it did mention the kingdom. But why doesn't the church talk about the kingdom very often, or even at all? If it was so important to Jesus, then it should definitely be important to us.

But what does this have to do with our work? I think everything, and you'll see after our conversation today with author, speaker, counselor Jessica Stone. Jessica, welcome back to iWork4Him.

Jessica Stone: Thanks for having me. It's so good to see you both again.

Jim: Yeah, it is good to see us, isn't it? I imagine it is. It's probably just such a joy for all of you. Oh, boy. It is. So in rare form as we record this afternoon.

Martha: Fair warning to all the listeners today. (laughter)

Jim: Okay. Jess, we found a chapter, Martha found a chapter that you recently wrote in a book published called The Power of Yes. Since we've connected over the years, we had to reconnect over this chapter entitled Kingdom Living. Why the title, and why the topic?

Jessica Stone: Yeah. I've been a professional counselor for 26 years, and the majority of that time I was primarily seeing Christians. I would say after the first couple years, people got to know that I was the Christian counselor at the hospital that I was working at. And so my clientele was probably 99% self-proclaimed Christian believers.

And what I saw is that they had the exact same issues as the rest of the world. And so I went to the Lord one day and I just said, "What are we missing? If we are called to be salt and light to the rest of the world why do we look just as sick and miserable? And that, that just doesn't reflect who you are, Jesus."

And so my mission became to teach people how to live in the kingdom, because when I read scripture, that was the practical teaching of Jesus, is think like this, love like this, behave like this, right? And it was so much more than a behavioral modification program, 'cause that's what counseling does, right? Is we try and teach people to think and behave differently. But God was in the business of transformation, a brand-new abundant life, and that's what I wanted to see in my clients.

Martha: That's so powerful. So then you took that, and for this book that I - So I'm just gonna back up just a little bit.

Jessica Stone: You have to tell it.

Martha: Met a mutual person. I LinkedIn connected with-

Jim: As opposed to an unmutual person? (chuckles)

Martha: Okay, somebody that we now know is a mutual friend. We both know him. All right. But so I met a woman, looked at her LinkedIn, saw that we went to same colleges, had similar geography in our history, and asked her more about it. She's "Oh, I'd like to give you a copy of the book I'm in. I have a chapter in it." And as I'm reading the whole book, then I run across Jessica's chapter. So I had no idea. It was just so great how God weaves stories together and all of that.

So in this book that was a compilation of a bunch of women who essentially are telling their story of a yes that they gave to God, why did you decide to communicate then about kingdom in that chapter?

Jessica Stone: It's really who I am. It's what I live and breathe. So it's not just counseling, it's how I approach life. Because once the Holy Spirit opened that key up to me I just couldn't live any other way. So it's my passion to teach people that when we say yes to Jesus, it's not just about salvation, that it truly is a way of life. We're not just waiting someday to go to heaven, but we're bringing heaven to Earth in the here and now. And that's kingdom living. We need to be taught that.

Martha: We do. And so let's compare that. Tell us about the differences between living in the kingdom way versus the world's way.

Jessica Stone: Yeah, I think the simplest way to put it is in the world it's about self: self-protection, self-preservation, self-gratification. Even in the counseling world, everything is self, right? Self-reflection, self-affirmation, self-care. In the kingdom, we give up self, and we get in exchange eternal life, power, authority, supernatural gifts. So it's ... Yeah.

And then it becomes other focused. Instead of focusing on ourself, we're really capable, we have the capacity to love others, serve others and really make our life about bringing the kingdom to the rest of the world.

Jim: And we've seen this in some people of notoriety in the kingdom. Mother Teresa was one of those people. She was infamous and she lived in one of the poorest spots on the planet. And we've also seen this at other places in the kingdom, and in our own country. But we do see this dichotomy where some people are doing that, "I'm gonna live for others," and some people are going, "I'm gonna live for self but still call myself a follower of Jesus," which, that's an oxymoron.

You can't live for yourself and follow Jesus, because by following Jesus you inherently can't live for self. So Jessica, what are some of those behaviors that are typical of someone living with a kingdom mindset?

Jessica Stone: Probably the first one is others-focused, right?

Jim: And what does that look like? What's that behavior look like? 'Cause I could say I'm others-focused. I interview people all the time. I'm focused on others. But what does it really mean?

Jessica Stone: It means that you are healthy enough, like you, you know who you are in Christ, and you accept all of the peace, the love, the joy, the fruits of the spirit so that you can focus on others in an authentic way.

So you walk into work, and you have so much peace and joy that you notice someone else is feeling down, that you can be that for them without having to worry about, "But I'm tired, and I'm stressed." And, it's just a totally different way that we show up, and people see it. They will take notice and go, "Wow, you're just different."

And it's so much more than just being in a good mood, right? We just don't show up and go, "Oh, yay. Praise Jesus." But it's authentically "I have enough capacity to love you, to encourage you, to see that there's conflict in relationships and offer solutions for those things."

Martha: It's so good. And I love this conversation because most people listening have heard references to kingdom on Earth and to thy kingdom come, all of the things, but yet really not paying attention to what God really wants for us to have here on Earth. And so I love that we're gonna keep diving deeper into this.

But, we're talking about, living on purpose and what God has for us. When a virus or a hacker or an online threat interrupts your day, it can pull you away from the purpose that God has given you, and that's why we trust SaferNet at iWork4Him, and in our homes, to help us to protect our phones, our laptops, and other devices.

With SaferNet watching over your digital life, you can focus on the kingdom work that God has called you to do. Visit safernet.com and let them know that iWork4Him sent you.

Jim: Jessica, regarding your focus on the kingdom, some would call you a pioneer woman, some call you a healer, and others probably call you crazy. What is it that causes them to react like this, sometimes vitriolic even?

Jessica Stone: When you think of a pioneer, the easiest image is the people who established our country, right? And so it's about taking a road no one's been down before. You're creating the road. You don't know where it's going. You don't know if you'll be successful when you get there.

And so my journey with the kingdom was very much like that. I just knew that there was something that the Lord had put before me, that there was a better life for the church. There was an abundant life. There was more healing. There was more freedom. And I was willing to sacrifice and go there, even if I didn't know what it looked like or how it would turn out.

And so just like the pioneers, I had plenty of times where I wanted to turn back. I just wanted to settle where I was. Like, "This is it. This is good enough. I've already carved out new ground." I definitely needed forgiveness from those that I worked with because I'm like, "I'm trying something new here, so you're coming with me whether you like it or not if you're one of my clients."

And yeah, it was exciting, it was disappointing. It's been quite the journey. But through it all, what happens with a pioneer is people are inspired by that, and they do wanna come along for the journey, and they have encountered greater healing, greater prosperity because of it.

Jim: I think we probably should dig a little deeper there for a minute because you're saying that if I'm truly gonna follow Jesus, I'm just gonna try to reiterate this in Jim language. If I'm gonna follow Jesus, then everything about me should be changing, and everyone around me should be benefiting from my faith whether they believe in Jesus or not. That's the kingdom.

Jessica Stone: Yes.

Jim: And that my way of living should display the miraculous. It should display the unexplainable, certainly my behavior, my actions, the things that happen because of my behavior and my actions.

Why is it when somebody says they're gonna follow Jesus- that this stuff sounds so extraordinary instead of I read in the Gospels that Jesus did all these extraordinary things, and Jesus said we could do the same things or even greater things than him? Why is it that this kind of stuff surprises the typical Sunday morning churchgoer?

Jessica Stone: Jim, this has been happening since the beginning of time. So it's very similar to what Paul said to the early churches. You have fallen into traditions and doctrines. You've made up your own doctrines of faith, and we can say that they've been co-mingled with the gospel or with the ways of Jesus, but they're really pretty worldly.

So my tagline is, are you one foot in the world and one foot in the kingdom, or are you two feet in? And it's gonna be very evident in how you think, how you speak, and absolutely how people observe when you show up. There's just something radical about you versus, "Oh, yeah, I know you're a Christian, but you kinda act and talk and behave like me. You get stressed out like me. You get sick like me. There's really not that amazing, significant difference."

Martha: I was thinking to what you were saying about being a pioneer, and I recently read a book where, you know early on in our country, people were living in what seemed to be established cities and were getting indoor plumbing and getting all of these things, yet there were so many people that still wanted to go west, right?

They wanted to leave the comforts of that established city, and they got pushback from their family. Why would you want to leave this wonderful environment to go explore something new? And I kinda see that as this tension point of we, but this seems right, and this seems comfortable. And maybe going into the uncomfortable for the sake of Jesus Christ, is not on a lot of people's bucket list, but it should be, because what you're saying is that the destination is worth it.

Jessica Stone: It is.

Martha: So- Yeah ... Jesus came to set us free so that we could flourish, and what do you think that flourishing in the kingdom on Earth here and now looks like?

Jessica Stone: It means that we are healthier, stronger mentally and emotionally, and that's evident. It means that we have thriving relationships, our marriages, our work relationships, our relationships with our children. It really means that we're walking in divine health. If Jesus says that you are a new creation why are we not seeing that? Why is that not manifesting?

So those are the things that I have passion for and go after, is this is our inheritance, and the only reason we're not walking in it is because of that lack of knowledge, lack of training to set our mind on the things above and not operate in what seems to be safe, what seems to be comfortable. Because the exchange, it's supernatural. It's so much better. But it does take training, and it does take trust.

Jim: We were listening to a speaker, oh, about two months ago at an event - we were at for the US Christian Chamber of Commerce. And he had... It was a business guy and he was talking to another business guy, and he says, "Listen, I'm gonna go all in on your kingdom business idea, but just tell me, I'll say yes as long as you can promise me it won't cost me anything." And the other guy says, "That's not the offer." But that's what Jesus has said, "Hey, you give me your life, I'll give you my life. It will cost you everything-

Jessica Stone: Everything ...

Jim: but I will give you everything you need in order to live." So let's talk about that because so many people who become followers of Jesus have gotten involved in things they don't even know.

Most of the church in America never talks about curses, demonic strongholds, needing deliverance. They just ignore any of that supernatural stuff because it's inconvenient, it's uncomfortable. So you bring up in your article that kingdom living involves breaking curses, and breaking strongholds, and bringing deliverance.

Talk to us about that.

Jessica Stone: Yes. As a counselor, that's something you can't ignore, even doctors will say that if you have fallen to an addiction, it probably runs in your generational line, right? And so from the moment that you are conceived, even secular psychology can prove this now, that in utero babies start to hardwire.

So if the mom is anxious, they have a more anxious temperament. If the environment is very let's say abusive, they come out feeling very insecure. And so that's happening our whole childhood, our whole life, those things. And so then we have a tendency to believe the lies that the enemy would propose to us, and of course they fit with those experiences.

And so the more we experience something that's scary, that we don't understand, those create strongholds because we agree with it and we go, "Yeah, that really is scary," and, "Yeah, I really do get rejected by everyone, I ever meet." And it's through that hardwiring process as a child and a young person that we have to step into our kingdom identity and biblical truth, and that's what I train people on all the time, is this is, like I said earlier, when we give our life to Christ, our spirit is made perfect in a second, in a moment, period, done, right?

But now we need to make sure our mind, our emotions, and even our instinct come into the, into alignment and into agreement with what that truth is.

Jim: It takes that Roman 12:2 stuff. We have to change the way we think.

Jessica Stone: Exactly.

Jim: Which that is a remarkable transformation, and it is miraculous, and it is a rewiring of our mind which takes the rest of our lives.

Jessica Stone: It does, yep.

Jim: There's the encouragement for everybody.

Martha: I wanna make sure that by the end of the show, though, we talk about next steps for people because I believe that people are leaning in right now and being, "Okay, what do I do about this? How do I break those strongholds? How do I you know Get unleashed from that?"

But I wanna pause right here for just a second first, because what Jessica, what you are saying is exactly why this podcast exists. We believe that our work is not separate from our faith, and it's one of the primary places that God has put each and every one of us.

And stories like this one are proof of that, and we make this show so that more people can hear these stories and be encouraged and challenged in their own faith walk. So if you want to keep us, keep this going and you, you can become a monthly supporter for as little as $5 a month, you can just go to iwork4him.com/donate.

We'll say it right again at the end of the show and have that also in the show notes.

Jim: And don't forget our summer picnic initiative. We're encouraging everybody in America that's listening to this podcast to have their neighbors over for a picnic. Have a block party, and send us a picture to jim@iwork4him.com.

That's Jim at I Work, the number four, him.com. For a competition and a special, one special winner will get an end of the summer prize. We're trying to transform our country, and yes, we're trying to do it at work. Maybe you should invite all your workmates over for a picnic, but that doesn't take away the responsibility to love on our neighbors in our own neighborhood.

Have them over for a potluck picnic, send us a picture, and do what the Lord asks us to do, which is love your neighbors and love your enemies, and just let's transform this country. And we gotta do it by knowing and loving on our neighbors!

Martha: We're excited about that, Jim.

Jim: We are excited.

Martha: So yeah it's fun.

So Jessica, thank you for getting us this far even in the conversation because for a lot of people it's thinking differently, just like we said, changing the way we think as it says in scripture. So why is it a revolution in the church to bring about kingdom living if it's what Jesus actually taught us in the first place? Why is it such a revolutionary idea?

Jessica Stone: I think it comes back to this place of being double-minded. And the more technology, the more information, social media, we are just inundated with the world. So even as Christian believers we will read our Bible, we'll pray, we'll get together for fellowship with other believers, but how does that compete with what we're hearing and being saturated with day in and day out?

And so it's just so easy to go back to what I say is a worldly life with a little Jesus sprinkled on it versus are you living from the kingdom? Are you walking in that authority? Are you being Christ to everyone that you meet? It's tough to stay two feet in.

Jim: Two feet in. Not two feet, but both feet in.

Okay, all right, got it. (laughter)

Jessica Stone: Both feet in.

Jim: Okay. All right. So let's, this is a podcast, a broadcast focused on living out our faith in our work. Yes. We've talked about kingdom living. We now understand it's a different way of doing it. It's what Jesus taught us to do, and if you ever wanna... That manual, Matthew 5 through 7 really is a lot of that. Okay. So what does kingdom living look like at work?

Jessica Stone: A couple different things. One, we're visionaries, we're creatives, because we have a supernatural tap into Heaven, and so we're coming up with ideas and solutions that are otherworldly, or at least we should be, right? So it's going beyond what the human mind knows.

That's 1 Corinthians 2:10, what does a man know but his own mind? But we have been given the mind of Christ. So how much more creative, how many more ideas should we be having? And then second is that we are, should be, relationship experts because Jesus set the standard. So we should be bringing harmony and reconciliation and just relationship ideas, leadership, all of those types of things. We should be leading the way in that area because we have the example of Christ.

Martha: We were just at a conference this last week and we talked, we really dove into the idea of creativity because for most of us, we think either we're not creative or that's just the arts. And in fact, in our workplace, it can be translated in things like how really well that spreadsheet that you created tabulates all of the things that you need to know. It takes creativity to do that, yes.

And so translating that into other aspects of our life are so critical because it's really easy, as soon as I hear creative, to be like, ... I love my crafty side, or whatever, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about however God has gifted you to live in that place of creativity, and that He has great ideas for that if we just ask Him.

"God, I don't have the answer, but I know that you do." And so I hope our listeners are hearing that because it it is incredibly important how God gifted each one of us for the work that we do. And I am not - I don't have the abilities you have as a counselor and a guide and, but I have different ones. God gave me a different role to play.

And so each of the, each person listening, I just want you to look at yourself and say, "Okay, how can that live out in my work, and what is God asking me to do?" 'Cause I think that's really how we all grow, is by looking at how we can apply it in our own lives.

Jessica Stone: Yes. And something really important you said is we don't have to rely on our gifts, talents, or abilities. We're talking about divine power, divine strategies, heavenly solutions. So that's what really makes living in the kingdom different, is we're not reliant on what we went to school for or what our natural bents might be.

Jim: That's good, 'cause when I went to school they taught me how to work on a mainframe computer with no screen. That really applies a lot today. (laughter) But it... I know, it's just great. But it is unfortunate that 90- I bet the number is in the high 90 percentage of believers who own businesses never stop to think, "Wow, I'm facing a serious issue here. I wonder what God's solution is for this, because I don't have one."

Jessica Stone: Yes.

Jim: And God wants to give us those. He wants to be our number one resource, but He also wants us to ask. And He demonstrated that with Joshua in the Battle of Ai. Joshua fought the Battle of Jericho. It went really well. They went on to go on to the next town, which was Ai. Nobody asked any questions. They just went ahead and did it, and they got slaughtered.

Jessica Stone: Yep.

Jim: God wants us to be involved in those. He wants to be involved in the intimate details of what we do. Jessica, is there an attitude that bubbles to the top in kingdom living?

Jessica Stone: Yeah, there's a couple different attitudes, but I think the biggest one is what we just talked about, is it's not relying on ourself, but it's tapping into who we are in Christ.

Over and over, we have to set our mind on the things above. We have to renew our mind, and we come into this place of how do I receive these things so that I can transform the world around me, rather than staying in this place of striving and stress? And that's where I saw most of my clients who are Christians is that they were stuck in this place of " yeah, I'll pray about that later, but right now, I'm depressed. I have all of these work stress. I have financial problems."

And we can just no longer live in that place of separation. The attitude that I see when I see someone truly living a kingdom life is confidence in the Lord, confidence in their calling. It's a holy confidence, not of themself, but of what God is doing through them. And then abundance that there's no lack, there's no fear of not having enough. And then the last one is hope for the future. We are the hope bringers. We know what awaits us so that even when things are hard, like Jesus, we set the joy before us, and suffering and pain is all worth it. And it's a totally different attitude than the world has.

Martha: So Jessica, for the listeners that are going, "Okay, I wanna learn more about this. I wanna understand more," is there a way they, can they reach out to you? Is there a resource? What would you suggest as the next thing that they could do?

Jessica Stone: I did create a masterclass. So if you go to my website, kingdommindset.global, there's a 16-video self-guided masterclass that will get you started. And then for those who feel like, "Yeah I think I get this stuff, but maybe I just need a one-on-one consult," I do those as well.

Martha: Okay. I just, I would be remiss if I didn't bring that up because-

Jessica Stone: Yeah ...

Martha: that's what this is all about, is okay, God has opened my eyes and my ears and my heart to something new, and what am I gonna do about that? Yes. Obviously praying, getting in the Word, but somebody who's already a few steps ahead, has already kinda worked this out, you're a great resource, so thank you for that.

Jessica Stone: Thank you.

Jim: Jessica Stone. Dr. Jessica Stone. Thank you so much for being back on iWork4Him. Thanks for talking about kingdom living, giving us a new perspective on it. It's a great conversation. There's just so much here. We could do a whole year of podcasts talking about this. You did a 12-lesson masterclass. But thanks for being here today with us. We're so grateful.

Jessica Stone: Thank you for having me. I love you both.

Jim: And if you've been on the fence about supporting iWork4Him, this is what your $5 a month does. It keeps conversations like this going. It reaches people who have yet to learn that God wants to be a part of their work life, to shift their thinking and use that thinking in their work for God's glory. Go to iwork4him.com/donate.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and our workplace, it's our mission field. But ultimately, iWork4Him.

7/1/26 - 2153: The Fog of Grief

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: Running a business brings challenges that can be hard to understand unless you've done it yourself. Business owners are responsible for delivering a quality product at a fair price, caring well for customers, and providing steady work for the people they employ.

In that sense, a business does more than serve customers, it helps support families, vendors, and employees. It can be taxing on your family, taxing on your children, taxing on your health. All of that is true and significant, but what happens while in the middle of all the things that we just mentioned, you find out that one of your children is gonna be born and then die quickly?

Suddenly everything becomes clear in your mind, and priorities naturally fall into place, and things that you thought were important don't even touch your radar anymore. Grief can be overwhelming, even in its simplest terms, but the death of a child hits harder and longer than anything that can be imagined.

Matthew Efird is here today with us to share the story of his family, his son Noah, and the path that he and his wife Hannah walked through these past six years as business owners and parents. Matthew recently released his book about the story of his son Noah, Even Though, We Will: Finding Rest in the Waves of Child Loss and the Practical Arks that Carry Us Through.

Matthew Efird, welcome to iWork4Him.

Matthew Efird: Thank you Jim, Martha, appreciate y'all having me.

Jim: Yeah, you bet. Matthew, we don't usually talk about grief on iWork4Him. We focus on the significant impact of people living out their faith in their work. What I realized when I was reading your book is that we need to talk about grief because people in our workplaces, which is our ministry place, our mission field, are often going through grief related to the death of a spouse, or the death of a parent, or the death of a child, or the death of a marriage. As a business owner, were you prepared to deal with grief and run a business too?

Matthew Efird: I definitely was not. I was most certainly not prepared going into it, had no clue what to do. Thankfully had incredible team members that worked with us, incredible community around us. I'm sure we'll get into that. But I did not feel equipped going into it as a business owner, no.

Martha: And you're right, we are gonna get more into the details. Normally when we have a first-time guest on the show, we ask you to share your Jesus story, but really this whole story, this whole show is about your Jesus story. So let's talk, start with you talking about, telling us about Noah.

Matthew Efird: Yeah. I'd be honored to. So Matthew Efird, I'm unapologetically a follower of Jesus Christ, had the amazing opportunity to marry my high school sweetheart, and our second son, Noah we learned at 12 weeks, my wife was 12 weeks pregnant at the time, at our ultrasound appointment that our son had some abnormalities on his ultrasound. 10 days later, we got the results back from his genetic testing.

He had a genetic disorder called trisomy 13. It's Patel syndrome. It's very similar to Down syndrome. Most people are familiar with Down syndrome. That's trisomy 21. It's an extra 13th chromosome, so that's where the trisomy comes from. He, at the time, we learned that he was not going to survive. It was a lethal diagnosis.

And so we chose to carry him to term. We believe that life happens at conception, so we wanted to carry him to term and enjoy the time with him as much as we got. So over the next six months or so, we walked through kind of anticipatory grief of grieving his diagnosis while he was still here. And then on March 7th, he was born.

Almost born in the truck, which is a funny story. But he came real quick. My wife's a rock star. We got to the hospital. There was a parking spot up front, which was a huge blessing. Got in. About 15 minutes later, we're holding him. And he lived 57 and a half hours. So on March 9th of 2020, he went to be with the Lord.

And it's amazing looking back on it, we see so much of God's mercy through our story. One of the things I love to point out is if you remember what happened in March 2020, COVID wrecks our country and our economy. In Athens, where our son was born, I think on the 10th or the 11th-

Jim: Not Greece, but georgia.

Matthew Efird: Yeah. Not... Yeah, sorry. Thank you. In-country. Athens, Georgia. Yeah. And the hospital that our son was born at, I think on the 10th of March or the 11th of March, they shut the hospital down. So no visitors. Parents were delivering in separate rooms. It was just chaos. I don't wanna speak if that was right or wrong but it's the circumstances that were there. Our son Noah was due later in March, but he came early, so he was born March 7th. All of our family, all of our friends got to come meet him.

And we got to cherish that time together as a couple, that without having to wear a mask, without having to quarantine, without having to be separated. It was just an incredibly merciful thing that God allowed us to have that time with him on this side of eternity.

So he passes March 9th. We have his memorial service on March 13th, which is Trisomy 13 Awareness Day, which is 3/13. Oh. It was the last memorial service that was performed in Athens in 2020. Just again, more and more stories along the way. Perspective matters and the things that we choose to focus on have helped us a lot as individuals and as a couple.

Martha: Yeah, I was, as soon as you said that, I was already doing the math and oh, my word. I didn't know what it was, where you were, and I'm so glad you spoke into that because we need to recognize when we do get those gifts from the Lord. And not everybody got that. You know, it was a tough season, but you-

Matthew Efird: Of course.

Martha: That was a, that's a big part of your story, and thank you for sharing that.

Jim: Matthew, you mentioned that you and Hannah started grieving the minute you heard Noah wasn't going to live a full life.

Matthew Efird: Sure.

Jim: Yet you also mentioned in your book that Noah went from the lap of his earthly father to the lap of his heavenly Father, that your grief was crushing. How is that grief different?

Matthew Efird: Yeah, so the, when we started grieving, that anticipatory grief, it was a weird circumstance to be he's still here, but we know he won't be here long. And so part of it was we still are celebrating the fact that he is here. So he's continuing to grow from week to week when we go to our specialist appointments. We cherish the time with him, those 57 and a half hours that we got with him.

And then when he passed, the evening of March 9th, it was the finality of, okay, now this son is gone. This son that we had prayed for, this son that we had longed for, this son that we knew would have short time here, that time has come to an end. And Jim, I prayed thousands of times for God to heal my son, and I wanted that to be on this side of eternity.

I wanted it to be where I could come on shows like this and say "Hey, here's my six-year-old son, and he should be, he should have passed away, but he's here." And have this, what I'd written the story in my head of the, this amazing testimony. We'll write all these books. Here, go and do great things. And I get to the place in my relationship with the Lord to say, "Okay, God, you are God and I am not."

And so in my prayer of, "God, heal my son," in that moment, on the evening of March 9th, God did. He answered that prayer. He answered all of those prayers, and he healed my son, and he went from the arms of his heavenly dad to the the arms of his earthly dad to the arms of his heavenly Father.

And man, I realized a few years later, so I journaled a lot. It was just a way for me to process what was going on inside of me, to process my grief, to wrestle with the Lord to try to articulate the feelings that I'd never felt before- or the feelings that I maybe had been scared to feel before.

And I was writing on his fifth birthday, and I was grieving the things that Noah, that we did not get to experience with Noah. And it was we didn't get to experience the laugh. We didn't get to experience the... There's a laundry list of things that I wrote down. And then I got to write down, okay, but Noah also didn't get to experience certain things.

So Noah didn't experience heartbreak. Noah didn't experience the brokenness of this fallen world in a way that we have experienced it. And then I wrote down, "Noah was never let down by me." And I put my pen down, I start crying. And I said, "Okay, God, what a beautiful gift." I have four sons. I love them all dearly.

They're each uniquely made in the image of our God, and I love that But I have this second son, Noah, that I was fully present for his life, that I never let him down. And what a gift that I have. I cannot say that of my other sons, right? I'm a doofus, as we all are, and make mistakes, and make many of them, and I have many more ahead of me.

But this son of mine, I have this incredible opportunity to cherish the fact that I never let him down. And it is a beautiful picture of God's grace and mercy in the midst of suffering.

Jim: It's a beautiful story and a painful story, and we're gonna jump back into this a second because we really need to talk about the impact on your business, the impact on your marriage, the impact... it impacted everybody around you, but there's a gift in all of this, too. You did get 57 and a half hours with Noah that you didn't know you were gonna get.

We're gonna take a break here to just thank SaferNet. We all use our phones and our computers for everything; work, communication, podcasting, ministry. But one virus or online threat could stop all of that in an instant. That's why iWork4Him trusts SaferNet for virus protection, VPN, web filtering on all of our devices. Protect your digital life so that you can stay focused on your God-given work. Visit safernet.com and tell them that iWork4Him sent you.

Martha: So Matthew, I am so grateful we're having this conversation, and one of the things that I really wanna hear, like Jim said, kinda, this affected all of life around you, every aspect of it. So as we talk to our iWork4Him listeners, how did you deal with your grief and still run a business at the same time, leading up to, even anticipating the birth of Noah?

Matthew Efird: So that's a great question, and I look at a couple of different ways. One, along the way leading up to September of 2019, I had been preparing my businesses for me to not be in the day-to-day running of them. So my goal was to build organizations that were cash flow positive that I could help oversee from a distance, could give some direction to, but would have leadership in them.

So I intentionally was building that framework into the business, number one. So that was just a merciful thing that God inspired me to do back when we started the business. Number two, we had unbelievable people that worked with us at the time, and we still do. And there was a lot of vulnerability that I had to come to the team and say, "Hey, look the... I write about the fog of grief." Had no clue what that was, but I was living in it.

And I'm a rose-colored glasses visionary. I love to help try to build the future. I love that. That's how God's wired me. In September 2019 into 2020, that was completely removed from me. I was not serving in that role, and so the capacity, the mental capacity, I did not have it to have that in me. So what I did was I came to our team, our leadership team, and I said, "This is what's going on in my family's life. This is the diagnosis that we've been given. I'm still going to work, but I'm gonna have to work in a limited capacity.

So what I would like for us to do is I would like for us to look at the playbook that we've been writing over the last several years together. I would like for us to follow this said playbook. When an issue comes up, if it's something that you think needs me, why don't you take one extra look at it before you engage me on it? Why don't you take one extra thought on it and say, 'What do you think Matthew would do? What do you think we should do? Is there anything in the handbook that says this?'

Why don't you take a stab at answering it? If it becomes an issue down the road, I can step in and help fix that. I'm happy to do that. But normally, you're gonna make a better decision than I would. And then we can debrief it once a week when we have a call. So we still do a leadership call which we did through Noah's pregnancy and after he passed. And so what that did was that gave a few things, right?

It was humbling for me to realize I'm not the best at everything in our company. I'm just not. I may think that in my arrogant state. I may think that as I'm the owner, I'm the CEO, I'm the founder. I'm the one that should be making the decisions. But what I quickly learned, Martha, is there's some great people that work with us and great people, great leaders want to lead.

And so I gave them the freedom to step up in leadership and then helped coach them through that. So did we make mistakes? Of course we did. Did I make mistakes? Of course I did. But it was a great learning opportunity for me to say, "This is a chance for our team to step out of my shadow and step into what God's called them to as well, not just what He's called me to."

And they were amazing, and they served me and my family, and they served their coworkers, and they served our customers really well during Noah's season. So it's not anything magical that I did. We just were very blessed to have amazing team members and people that stepped up.

Martha: A couple things I just wanna acknowledge when you share that, though, is that number one, hiring is a big decision made in businesses. And obviously in those, in that process, you hired well, God gave you the ability to empower them to actually do the job you've hired them to do.. Which a lot of business owners may never get that opportunity because they're not looking at it from the very definitive perspective that you were looking at it from. And so it's so amazing for you to see that as the way that you were able to let them actually do their jobs and come to you for those needs when they had them.

Jim: It's probably an incredibly growing experience for everybody on your team.

Martha: Yeah.

Matthew Efird: It was. And so thankfully, we started out with an understanding of the culture that we wanted within our organization, right? We, as a young business owner, I heard people talk about mission, vision, core values, and I was like, "Eh, that's fine. I don't need a business plan. I don't need those things." And then I wrote those out and I realized, oh wow, these are actually super helpful.

It's actually really helpful to have the vision, where we're going, the mission, how we're gonna get there, and the core values. These are things that bind us together as an organization. When we started clarifying that as a team, when I started clarifying that from my position as the owner or the founder It gave me a rubric to hire, fire, and train off of. And in that, it brought in the right people.

Jim Collins in Good to Great, right? You bring the right people on the bus, and then you get them in the right seat. Those two things are easy to say. They're really hard to do. But when you do it, it provides incredible opportunity for everybody on the team. A rising tide rises all ships. It provides incredible opportunity. It takes work to get there, but it's well worth that investment.

Our son's name's Noah, right? We, in the book, you, Jim, you talked about the book. In the book, we talk a lot about Noah's Ark and we play off of that throughout the whole story. But the, one of the things that I believe so much is that God inspired Noah to build the ark before the storm- not in the storm. And we as business leaders, as owners, as leaders in the community, we are called to be builders and to build things to help provide s- safe passage through storms, maybe for ourselves and our family, or for our team members, or for our community.

Jim: I love that.

Martha: You just were talking about core values, and one of the core values at iWork4Him is excellence, and we really are grateful to partner with sponsors who share that same commitment. We already mentioned SaferNet, who helps protect phones and computers with cybersecurity tools that are designed to guard our data. Patriot Mobile is another one of those sponsors, and they provide dependable US-based wireless service built on the pillars that are so important to us: faith, family, and freedom.

To learn more about our trusted affiliate partners and others who support the iWork4Him mission, you can go to iwork4him.com/sponsors.

Jim: And listeners, don't forget about our summer picnic initiative. Have a block party. Send us a picture to jim@iwork4him.com, jim@iwork, the number 4, him.com. For more inspiration, visit the web link we'll put in our show notes. Remember, one special winner will be selected for a special end of summer prize if you have a summer picnic in your neighborhood.

Martha: And send a picture.

Jim: And send a picture. The way we're gonna transform this country for Christ is to start loving on our neighbors. Have a picnic this summer.

Matthew Efird: Amen.

Jim: All right, Matthew, there's so much to talk, and we're running out of time already. I wanna make sure that we deal with this. You've already talked about how you dealt with grief with your business team, how you and Hannah had to walk through grief before you actually got to meet Noah. Then you had 57 and a half hours with Noah, and then you had to grieve him no longer being in your arms, but in the arms of our Heavenly Father. How did you and Hannah cope with that overwhelming grief on a day-to-day basis?

Matthew Efird: Yeah, that's a great question, Jim. I appreciate the opportunity to share. So a few things that we did is we similarly were building into, building capital into our relationship before we needed to pull from it. So we as a couple, early in our relationship, so we've been together since 2010, and since 2010, we've talked every single day. Every day.

There's not been a day that's gone by since the summer of 2010 that we've not talked and in that we've done date nights, we've done consistency, we've read books together, we've done Bible study together. We just continued to invest in our relationship. That investment at that time, over nine and a half years, almost 10 years, it provided so much framework for us to navigate.

But even in that, we still had to learn a new way to cope and a new way to communicate. So we did... I wrote about in the book, Even Though, We Will, I wrote about in our marriage, we did a two question survey because, Jim I don't know about you, but I love to fix things. That may be stereotypical, but at least for me, that's very true for me.

Jim: Most men like to fix things.

Matthew Efird: Yeah. Yeah. I do that in my marriage. And I see my wife hurting, and I wanna say "Hey, is something bothering you? Can we talk about it? Let's work through this." That question, "is something bothering you, are you okay?" Completely futile in the season of grief. It's "No, I'm not okay. My son is dying," or, "My son has just passed away." So that's not a great question to ask. But what became the question that we would ask one another is, "Have I done something to upset you?"

That gave a couple of things. It gave freedom for the other person to say, "Yeah, you are really a doofus, and you really hurt my feelings." I'm inviting that feedback. But also what it did is it said to the other person, so if I saw Hannah being really mean with Walker, really short with Walker who's our oldest son - that's not normal for her.

That's not part of her normal character. So if I saw that, I would say, "Hey, sweetheart have I done something to upset you?" Because she now knows, "I see you, and I see that you're hurting, and I just want you to know that I see you. So if I've done something to upset you, I want to ask for forgiveness, I want to apologize, and I wanna seek restitution," right?

Like a healthy relationship. But if I've not done something to upset you, I'm gonna follow up with a second question, is would you like to talk about how you're feeling? Because again, I see you. I'm gonna send Walker into the other room. I'm gonna give you and I some space. I'm gonna put my phone down. I'm gonna turn the TV off. I'm gonna go on a walk with you. I'm gonna give you space to grieve, and I want you to know that I'm here for you in that.

She did that so much better than I did all throughout our marriage. But we continue to communicate that way as a way to say, "I see you, I love you, I'm for you." Because what I had to learn and what she had to learn is while we were both going through this together, we both had to grieve individually. And grieve together. So that was unique. That was difficult. That was hard.

But those two things, investing in our marriage early, having just the consistency of communication, and then relearning that kind of two-question survey, those two things helped our marriage tremendously. It helped us learn to navigate a new season as bereaved parents.

Martha: Yeah. I have heard for a very long time that grief is very difficult on a marriage. And what I hear you say, and I've often used this analogy in life, is that, we lived in Florida for 20 years, and you don't wait for the hurricane to come to start preparing for the storm, right? You have your emergency stuff. You have a plan. You already own the plywood. Do all the things ahead of time, and that's really this foundation that you guys had built up in your marriage, and I think it's such a great example for all of us to be, like, invest every day in the relationships around you because we don't know what's gonna come.

So you did something very helpful in the book, and you have a whole section where you talk about the things that people shouldn't say to other people when they're going through grief. And I think this is really practical for all of us listening because we are gonna be around people that have loss, whatever that loss may look like. So what are some of those things that we absolutely should not be saying?

Matthew Efird: Yeah, it's a great question, Martha. I appreciate the opportunity to share. There's several things that we learned that, that are not helpful. A lot of times we go into a relationship, we see somebody hurting, and we wanna fix it. Or we feel awkward around them, and we just start talking, right? In Job's story, Job's friends show up, and they show up really well for him. They sit with him, they grieve with him, and then they open their mouths and everything falls apart.

So there, there's a lot of time that we feel like we as friends or parents or coworkers or business owners, we have to have the right thing to say. And really the freedom, the gift that you can give to somebody is your presence and asking better questions. Those two things help so much more than trying to tell somebody what to feel, right? When anytime you're telling somebody how they should feel saying, if you start out a sentence saying, "At least," blank, just go ahead and stop.

"At least they're in a better place." We heard that. "At least you can have more kids." We heard that. "At least he's no longer hurting." We heard that. Again and again we heard that "at least." Those things are meant with good intentions, but they do not meet somebody in their grief very well.

Also, telling somebody that you know exactly how they feel- ... that phrasing is very belittling to somebody in a season of grief. Because you've not actually walked in their shoes. You may have a similar story. You may have a similar circumstance that gives you insight into the way that they may be feeling. That's a powerful tool, that empathy can be to connect us as humans, as brothers and sisters in Christ, as just general people. But empathy is something that doesn't take the spotlight off of the person that's grieving, right?

If I'm saying to you, "Martha, I'm so sorry you're going through that. I know exactly how you feel. Let me tell you about my story," what did I just do? I took the spotlight off of you and your grief, and I said, "Hey, let me shine it on me for a little while." That's not what you need. You need it to stay on you. You need me to say, "Martha, I'm so sorry you're going through that. When I lost my dad, when I lost my son, when I lost my brother, it wrecked me. I'm so sorry. Do you, would you like to tell me about him?"

That, that is such a powerful question for somebody who is grieving, especially the grief of loss of someone, is inviting them to talk about that person. If you're wanting a great question to ask, that is a great question that people are longing for you to ask. You're not gonna remind them that they lost that person, right? I'm gonna know every single day, for the rest of eternity, until I meet my son in eternity, that he's not with me. I will know that forever.

So when somebody asks me about Noah, it doesn't remind me of him. It doesn't bring that back up. It's not reopening that wound for me. I already know him. I already know that I'm missing him. But it does give me an opportunity to talk about him.

Martha: Is there anything else, just to kinda wrap a bow on that, that we should be saying? Especially, let's think about the workplace and how we may have coworkers or bosses or employees that are coming and going during a time of grief. Like how best can we meet their need and talk with them?

Matthew Efird: Yeah, it's a great question. So I have the opportunity to speak and consult with businesses all over the country about empathetic leadership. And it's, this is part of the thing that we get to. It is, how do we, as people that care about our employees, how do we show up better?

So part of the framework that I teach is show up, listen, and deploy. So in the listening stage, it is a lot more of asking questions. So it's a lot more of, "Let me hear about this person. Let me put my phone away. Let me close my laptop. Let me turn my chair and face it towards you," right? We've all been in the office, we've got our desktop up, somebody walks in, we turn and look at them.

We don't even move our chair towards them, we just turn our shoulders and look at them. No. I'm gonna close my laptop, I'm gonna turn my desktop off. I'm gonna turn my chair and I'm gonna face it towards you. I'm gonna give you my undivided attention. That in itself is super, super valuable.

On the deploy side, the one thing that I love to get to is, we call it the 24-hour rule. It's specific, it's silent, and it's soon. So specific, we as a team, we build a framework. When we hear of somebody in our organization that's grieving, we do something specific for them. You gotta know your employees.

So that's part of our onboarding, that's part of our ongoing relationship with them. We know of what they like and what they don't like, their family dynamics, as much as they're willing to share. But we get to know our people. We do something silent. So one thing that I teach people is to ask for forgiveness, not permission, to extend generosity.

Jim: Explain that.

Matthew Efird: Every business needs to hear this. Every business owner needs to hear this. It is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission to extend generosity. So when somebody's in a season of grief, they are not wanting to make extra decisions. So if they come to you, if Martha, if I come to you in the situation earlier, you're in a season of grief and I say, "Hey Martha, so sorry you're struggling. I'm so sorry this has happened in your life. Is there something I can do? How can I help?"

Those are great questions on the surface, right? They... It feels really good. But underneath that, what have I just done? I've given you something else to do. I've made you make another decision. I've made you had to think through strategically what is going on at home and what can this person do. That is so difficult in the midst of the fog of grief.

A better thing for me to do is to say, "Hey, Martha," if I know you well enough and I know that you love the Italian diner down the road, I'm gonna say, "Hey, Martha, I just want you to know we went ahead and we ordered y'all dinner tonight from Fazoli's down the road. It's gonna be at your house at 5:00 PM. I'm so sorry that you're going through this."

And then I just walk out of the room, right? If that upsets you, that's fine. I'm gonna ask for forgiveness of being generous to you rather than the ability to do that. And then the soon is the 24 hours. I, like most entrepreneurs, I get aggressive ADHD at times, and it's the ability for me to put a framework around, we're gonna do this and do it now. Not six months from now when we think about it again. Or when, a year from now when it comes up again.

Because ultimately, Jim and Martha, what happens is employees get disengaged. Quiet quitting is a very popular thing right now that gets talked about a lot. Gallup's got a bunch of research on it. They're like 34% of an annual person's salary is a cost to the business when they get disengaged. So it's a dramatic increase in cost to the organization, but they do that when they feel unseen. They do that when they get disengaged. These things that people go through, loss is universal.

It's not just child loss. It's not just parent loss. It's not just sibling loss, even though those things happen. But loss itself, the absence of something, a job, a loved one, a marriage, an advance, a career. There's all these things that we experience as loss, and we as a culture just don't show up well for people in the midst of grief. We've gotta show up. We've gotta ask questions. We gotta sit with them in the hard time.

Martha: Just real quick, I was thinking about the fact that in business we have a plan for everything, so why not have a plan for this loss ahead of time? We, Jim's dad passed away. Our Sunday school class, they already knew. They bring donuts and muffins, garbage bags, paper towel, boxes of Kleenex. At the time I was like, "Oh, this is interesting." It met a need. A need, yeah. And they didn't talk about it. They didn't ask. They just did it.

And so I think as a business, having a plan for a loss, whatever that might be, could be very helpful so you can do it immediately. So I love the practical advice. I'm grateful you shared your hard story because I think a lot of people are gonna lean into this and do some reflection.

Jim: If you're on YouTube, you're seeing the picture of the book, Even Though, We Will, that Matthew wrote about their story with Noah, and really the whole process of them pre-grieving... what did you call it? Not pre-grieving. You called it...

Martha: anticipatory grief ... anticipatory. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah. And then the grieving after Noah went to be with the Lord. Get a copy of this book. It's available on Amazon. (clears throat) Sorry for that. A frog must have visited me while Matthew was talking. Matthew, thank you so much for sharing your story, the story of what you and Hannah walked through. I know there's so much more we could go into, but we're out of time.

We encourage people to engage with you and your book. Is there a website, too, people should check out?

Matthew Efird: Yeah, eventhoughwewill.com or matthewefird.com.

Jim: Beautiful. Matthew, thanks for being with us this morning. Appreciate it.

Matthew Efird: Thanks for having me.

Jim: Did you enjoy today's message? Or the episode? Support iWork4Him with $5 a month at iwork4him.com/donate to help spread the message that your work matters to God. And today, so many practical things about dealing with grief in the workplace. $5 a month helps keep this going.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and our workplace, it's our mission field. But ultimately iWork4Him.

6/24/26 - 2152: How Kingdom Leaders Hire the Right People

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: There are several hundred thousand Christian-owned businesses in the United States, another couple hundred thousand Christian nonprofits, and over 330,000 churches across the United States.

How many people do these Christian-run organizations employ? The number's in the millions. It's assumed that if you work for a quote, unquote, "Christian", or in a Christian nonprofit or a church, that the workplace environment is healthier because people follow Jesus. The people following Jesus are running it.

But of course, that isn't always true. Sure, there are companies that are incredible to work for. Hobby Lobby's one of them, Chick-fil-A another, and they employ tens of thousands. But where does one go to find the right Jesus-following leader to run a business or a Christian nonprofit or a church? How do you weed out the wheat from the chaff?

As believers in Jesus, everything about us should be different from the world, especially how we hire and manage people. These are two things that Jesus did brilliantly, and we can learn from him. Bob Spence has been helping kingdom companies hire super high quality leaders for decades, and he's here to give us some advice, some counsel, and some encouragement.

Bob released a new book last year entitled A Game Plan for Hiring the Right People. It's an awesome read. Literally awesome read. I can't wait for the sequel. Bob Spence, welcome back to iWork4Him.

Bob Spence: Thank you, Jim and Martha. Glad to be here.

Jim: Bob, my opening question for you is this: Why is it that so many companies are not careful, fastidious, judicious when it comes to hiring?

Bob Spence: Number one, they don't place the right value on hiring. They treat it as something they have to do rather than looking at it as something they need to do to build the right team that will work together very effectively. And what happens is too often they'll get on one of these resume sites and get resumes.

And the resumes will come in, and they'll hire somebody on the basis of a resume. That's insanity because they keep doing it over, over again, so I know it's insanity. But the resume doesn't tell you anything. It's like when Jesus chose the disciples, I wasn't there. I don't know if he interviewed them or what he did or didn't do, but I know one thing. He looked into their heart. And if business leaders would start looking into the heart of people, they would hire a whole lot better.

Jim: And honestly, kingdom leaders, people following Jesus should know this. Just, they should just know it, shouldn't even - just know that you should look into the heart. Why do you think it is that Christ followers don't do this better?

Bob Spence: They've never been taught how to do it, and any time you mention training and teaching them how to hire or how to interview, their reaction is, "Oh, I know how to do that. I've done that for years." "How successful have you been?" I need to talk to you about that." But I don't know why people won't get trained on how to interview and how to hire.

I don't understand that. Doesn't make any sense. They also don't wanna spend any money on hiring, and yet they'll spend all kinds of money on pieces of equipment and not on people. Doesn't make sense.

Martha: No, it doesn't. In fact, it just made me think of this analogy, Bob. How many people have you talked to that have said that they don't sleep well, but they don't wanna invest in a new mattress?

But it's okay, so you know what the issue is, you know where you need to put the investment, but you don't wanna do it. And you go to the chiropractor, buy 12 different pillows and try... you spend as much money on that, but you didn't go to the mattress. I just think we have that conversation all the time.

Jim: With my mother. (laughter)

Martha: Over and over again. With lots of people. But- Yeah ... so I just think about how impor- it's like a marriage in a sense. When you hire somebody, that's a really big step. So what do you - what do you see, and I think maybe you already said it, what do you see as the number one mistake that companies make when they're hiring people?

Bob Spence: Number one, they don't prepare. In other words, "Oh, we need to hire somebody. Somebody put an ad on the internet. Somebody... Oh, put an ad on LinkedIn, put an ad on Indeed, put an ad on ZipRecruiter. Let's get some resumes." Resumes come in. "What resume looks good to you? That one? Okay, bring him in. Schedule... i'd like to have a 15-minute interview with him."

I don't know what you can do in 15 minutes, but anyway, they treat it that way. Years ago many years ago, I was working with a company out in California, and the owner, strong Christian leader, and he said to me one day, he said, "Bob, now will your system here help me hire only Christians?"

And I looked at him, I said, "You want to hire only Christians?" "Yes, because I know they have the right heart." And I said some of them do- ... and some of them might not." But I said, "Why don't you just hire the best person that matches your values, and then if they're not a Christian, maybe they'll see this in action and become a Christian."

And thank goodness he agreed with me . And he's gone on, he's no longer alive, but he did a lot of good things while he was here. And he focused on hiring people that were the fit and match, and that's the key. And he learned from me how to prepare for a hire. People don't prepare. They don't do anything except post it, and then they say, "Okay, let's interview." Big deal.

Martha: Which is amazing, because they're planning to invest tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars into that person's work over hopefully a long term. If you're hiring all the time, you're wasting a lot of time in the training and all of that. So hiring, to me, Bob, it makes complete sense to be prepared and to all of that. But this is what we're talking about with you, because you're the expert in seeing what people are doing wrong and and not, and then you've got a way to make it right.

Jim: Hey, you gave a free plug to a couple of organizations that sometimes can discriminate against conservatives or believers. We'd like to give a plug to redballoon.work, because Red Balloon is one of those ones that if you wanna put your faith out there boldly, no problem. Check out Red Balloon, an unpaid advertiser right here on iWork4Him.

Martha: For job postings.

Jim: For job postings, absolutely. Yeah. Red Balloon, run by a phenomenal kingdom leadership team.

All right, Bob, when somebody makes a bad hire, what's the impact on the organization, the company?

Bob Spence: Most people immediately talk about the loss of money because of it, because it's basically three times their annual salary is what it costs you for a mishire. That's the benchmark. I think there's something far worse than the loss of money.

It's the loss of cohesion, it's the loss of team play, because what happens is that mishire does not fit, and there's turmoil day after day, and it can destroy the team easily. And so yeah, the money's important, but the worst part is the impact on your culture and what it does.

Jim: That's a powerful way. That's a powerful word, for sure.

Martha: It really is. So is there a way to get it right every time?

Bob Spence: No.

Jim: Wrong answer. Sorry.

Martha: Is there a way to get it right more times than not?

Bob Spence: I always tell people, because I've had a lot of success with my hiring system, and I tell them, "It will help you, but it's not perfect." Because we're not dealing with robots yet. We're dealing with human beings. And we hope we never have to deal with robots. But anyway, with human beings, everyone's different, and so what you need to remember is, yeah, I'd like to be successful in hiring. Most companies, their success rate is less than 50%.

Jim: Ooh.

Bob Spence: That's horrible. The companies that I've worked with, most of them are roughly 90% successful.

Martha: Wow.

Bob Spence: Because they prepare and another thing they do, they involve the whole team in the interview process. They bring people in and have team interviews to see if they fit with the team.

Jim: Bob, you wrote an amazing book. I wanna give a plug here, but A Game Plan for Hiring the Right People, your book, and we've argued about the title. We won't argue about the title today. No. But in there, it's really an allegory on seeing this, your game plan, your choosing winners system in action, but in a story form, and it was riveting. I loved it. And like I said, I wasn't kidding. I want, I can't wait for the sequel, 'cause I wanna find out what happens next.

Martha: Wait a second. I want you to go back and say that again, because people were not expecting you to say that this was a story that gave an example of a hiring process. They are thinking this is 12 chapters on how to get it done.

Jim: Blah, blah, blah, blah. No way.

Martha: But Jim loves the way Bob writes because it's story form.

Jim: He kills off somebody in the middle of the book.

Martha: Don't tell them that.

Jim: Oh, but I didn't tell you who he kills off. He shoulda killed off the one guy that he... Yeah. In his Porsche. But anyway, okay. All right. Oh. Speaking of getting it right, yeah, every time, Martha.

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Jim: Bob, you've been doing this for decades, this helping people to hire people. You work for companies that are run by Jesus followers and some that aren't. How did you come up with this almost foolproof way to hire the right leaders?

Bob Spence: Years ago, Bob was not a HR consultant, he was a school administrator. And I was faced with the task of hiring teachers as a high school-

Jim: Which are different than business people.

Bob Spence: Yes. They are different. However, there are similarities. So at that time, I asked people, "How do you interview? What do you do in an interview?" And so the principal at that time, I was the assistant principal said to me, "You wanna watch me interview somebody?" I said, "Yeah, I'd love to. I wanna see how it's done."

So we sat down, a person came in for a science teaching position, and the principal interviewed him. The guy left the room and the principal said "what'd you think?" I said, "Of your interviewing or the candidate?" He looked at me and he said, "What? What do you mean?" I said Steve, you're not really a good interviewer."

He said, "W- what do you know about interviewing?" I said, "Not a lot, but I know you're not a good interviewer." (laughter) I said, "We just sat here for 30 minutes. I don't know a whole lot about this candidate, but I know a whole lot about you. I know a whole lot about all the championships this school has had. I know about all our academic successes.

But I do know one thing about the candidate. It came through loud and clear." And he said, "What's that?" I said, "He doesn't like kids." He said, "What?" I said, "This guy, don't hire him. He does not like kids and it's gonna be a disaster." And he said "not for me. He's one of yours to supervise." I fired him halfway through the year after he got into a fistfight with a student. And so anyway, the moral of the story is you've got to learn how to interview.

Steve didn't know how to interview, and one of the best things that happened to me was watching him. But then I got busy and I got on the phone and started calling people, and I found this system out in Nebraska that actually had a teacher perceiver interview, and it was structured interview and it was very helpful, so I learned how to use it. And that sort of got me launched, and then I decided to do my own thing and came up with my own ideas and my own successes, and that's how we have a book now. I'll put in a plug.

Martha: Yes, please do.

Jim: I don't know if you want me to do that.

Sure, you're allowed to. Just send a check to iWork4Him, care of... (laughter)

Martha: okay, so for people that are only listening and not watching the YouTube, Bob just held up a copy of his book, a Game Plan for Hiring the Right People ... and we are huge proponents of it.

That's the whole idea is we're trying to give you resources to help you run your kingdom company, do your kingdom job in a way that is not only based on biblical principles, but also sets you up for success. Because you can hear just in Bob's voice and the way he talks about things, it's amazing what a difference it can make when you do things the right way.

So Bob, without, I don't know if you wanna give away all your secrets or not, but what are the some of the key ingredients?

Jim: Maybe you could just give us one.

Martha: Okay, give us one key ingredient in the hiring process that a lot of people miss.

Bob Spence: Put together a position profile describing the person behaviorally, at value-based, and then also take a look at what do we want them to do, and how do we define success, and then spell out what criteria you have to have or want to have. And when you have that document, it's like a blueprint for building a house. I wouldn't wanna build a house without a blueprint. You get this blueprint, and then that's how you start. So that's the first thing.

Jim: And you kinda hinted at it in that, you do it as a team approach, not just the boss that needs to hire somebody underneath them. You involve the people that person underneath that boss are gonna work with in this whole process, and you can find out more in the book, A Game Plan for Hiring the Right People. Again, that book is so good. It's like reading a mystery novel and learning how to hire people all at the same time.

Bob, what's the biggest joy for you in helping companies through this process?

Bob Spence: There's a company in Iowa, I've helped them hire six key leaders and they're all still there. It's been several years we've been doing this. My joy is seeing them go in and be successful, and seeing the company experience success. That's the fun part.

Because what I do when we get done interviewing, we get to the point we got three finalists, and they always ask me, they say, Bob, which of the three would you recommend we hire?" And I say, "I'm not gonna tell you." And they say, "What?" I said, "You have to pick. I have done all my work with these people. It's a long process. It's now up to you."

I will tell you the one I prefer after you make your choice. And he laughed and he said, "Oh, you'll just agree with whatever I say." I said, "That offends me. I would not do that. I will be honest. If we don't agree, I'll tell you." He goes, "Okay." So anyway, I've only had one time out of 350 searches that the client and I didn't agree on the right person.

Martha: Wow.

Jim: Wow. And did they hire the wrong person or the one you said you should've, they should've hired?

Martha: The one?

Jim: The one.

Bob Spence: The one?

Jim: Now you said there was one out of 300 and some searches that they, you disagreed on the candidate at the end. Did they hire the one that they- Yours or theirs?

Martha: Yours or theirs? Yeah.

Bob Spence: Theirs. They hired the one I didn't want them to hire.

Jim: Yeah. Oh. How did that-

Bob Spence: I was not comfortable with this candidate for several reasons, and I shared those reasons and did it afterwards 'cause I wanted to see who they would pick. Anyway he managed to stay there 90 days till they got rid of him.

Jim: So you were right, Bob.

Martha: I just wanna say something before we go into our next mention here, Bob, is that you said something that really stuck with me about, that example of that interview where the interviewee did most of the talking, or interviewer did most of the talking and didn't really get to know the candidate.

When you're an organization, likely you have a website, likely you have an About page, likely you've got things highlighted. People can research about you. You assume they've done their due diligence to find out if they wanna work for your company or your organization. But that interview process is for that reason, right? To get to know the candidate.

And so I think so many of us wanna sit and brag about all the reasons they should come to work here, but you made such a good, simple point. Get to know the person because you're inviting them into something very special that you've worked very hard to curate, and boy, we don't wanna upset that apple cart the wrong way. So I just wanted to highlight that because I just thought that was very powerful.

Bob Spence: You have to give the candidates your website and any other information you can. Put it out there right away at the early part so people can look at it and say, "Yeah, I might like that. Eh, I don't think I'd like that." It makes a big difference 'cause then in the interview you can focus on the person. For example, I start my interviews very simply. I just say, "Tell me what you most want me to know about you." And then I just shut up and listen. And then during the interview I ask questions this way. I'll say, "Would you be described as a good communicator?"

"Oh, yeah, I'm a great communicator." That was a worthless question except I then follow up with, "Tell me about a time when you had a problem with communication that had a negative impact on the company." Then I shut up and listen. I tell people, "If you're the interviewer, you get to talk 10% of the interview time. That's it. 90% is the candidate."

And in the book you'll see how these people did it, because the book takes a management team and takes them all the way through this process. You can learn the process just by reading the book. On my bookshelf I have 20 books on hiring and interviewing. 20 books. There's not a one of them I'll recommend. Not one, because all of them are just regurgitating the same thing over and over, and they'll give you a list of worthless questions to ask. You take and write questions for each person for each interview. You don't do the catalog approach.

Jim: Bob, when I was interviewing people, and I ran several businesses, I coached many business owners on how to hire people, and, I was always trying to get... I was an insurance guy, and so I was always trying to find out when I was selling insurance, find out what did the last guy miss so that I could fill that hole and get the new clients.

In the interview process, I was always trying to get them to tell me something they would never tell anybody, but I'd get them to tell me anyway through the process. And my favorite question, and this is free for anybody listening to the show today. Listen, if I were to pick up the phone right now and call your mom and say, "What's this one thing that Jim should be working on today that she's really frustrated about?" What's the one thing your mom says you should be working on that you're not working on? And everybody would answer that question.

Martha: They don't have the opportunity to not tell the answer 'cause they go, gotta tell him

Jim: I had so many people say "my mom's dead." I'm like, "I'm sorry to hear about that. So what about your grandma? If I called your grandma?" And I'd find somebody that was still alive, and they always had an... It was just hilarious. And people would tell you the, they would tell you the truth.

Martha: They'd be honest.

Jim: And you're like, "I am so grateful you told me that truth. The interview's done now. Thank you very much." "Have a great day. Make sure you get a glass of water on your way out."

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Martha: So Bob, do you see the companies that are led by Jesus followers handling the hiring process differently? Or better, I guess I should say, than the industries?

Bob Spence: Generally they're doing it differently.

Martha: Okay.

Bob Spence: Now that's not 100%. But most of the ones I know, the difference is they really focus on the people, and they really focus on discovering who this person really is and what is their belief structure.

Now, they don't break the law, on different things. It's like ... candidates, I'll be interviewing a candidate from a client, and it happened the other day, the person said to me I saw on your website that you're a Christian. I want you to know I am, too." And he s- oh, and then they say, "Ooh, that's probably illegal. I shouldn't have done that." I said, "No." I said, "If I had asked you if you're Christian, I, that'd been my problem. But no, not for you to tell me. But why did you tell me?" What caused you to tell me that?

See, that offended me because he's using it as a lever. And you've got to be attuned to the different levers these people will use on you to sway you to something that probably you shouldn't be into.

Jim: That's powerful and so good to know. It should go without saying, Bob, that as believers our hiring process should show the candidates respect, care, that should s- be a standout feature of the interviews that we do. How can we all do a better job hiring? If for 2026, just how can we do a better job hiring?

Bob Spence: Number one, get trained and learn how to do it. Secondly, make sure you're clear on who you want, what you want them to do, and put together your specifications. Makes a world of difference. And then learn how to interview, how to ask questions, how to listen, and then just shut up and listen. Don't talk during interviews.

Do little things like, and my Christian clients do this. When they get resumes in, every resume sender gets an email back, "Thank you for applying for our position and sending us your resume. Here is the process we use to hire. If you don't hear from us by such and such a date, you were not selected for an interview."

See, what happens is my Christian clients have recognized that the way you conduct a hiring process, you're sending powerful messages to people. Think about all the companies that never respond to a resume. I've talked to numerous candidates, "Bob, you're the first guy that's ever acknowledged I sent my resume out. I was wondering if it ever got to anybody."

And you treat people - when you tell somebody, "I'm gonna call you at 2:00 for an interview," you get ready and then you sit here watching the clock, and at 2:00 you dial the phone. It's simple. And then they go yeah, you said 2:00. You meant it." I said, "Yes, that's the way my client works. When they say it, they mean it." So you're teaching as you go through it. And it's powerful.

Martha: Hugely powerful, and even I was thinking about the fact that then you're setting them up for saying, "And that's the environment that we're in, and I trust you to respect showing up for work at the right time when- when you say you're gonna be here at such and such a time, that's what time you're gonna be here." You set that bar and everybody's held to that level of expectation.

Jim: Any final words, Bob?

Martha: Read the book.

 (laughter)

Bob Spence: I would, yeah, read the book. I think it's easy to read. It's entirely different than any other hiring, interviewing book you'll ever read. Guaranteed. Because it's a business fable. It's a business fable. It's a story, and you follow this team all the way through to a hire. And there's some fun stops along the way, and somebody dies, and Jim wanted me to kill this one guy off, but I didn't.

 (laughter)

Jim: Not in the first book you didn't. But there's a second book to come.

Martha: Oh.

Bob Spence: Second book is written. I'm just waiting to get a few more sales of the first book to publish it.

Martha: That's great.

Jim: That's an opportunity for you, our listeners. All right, everybody out there. That's right. Go on to Amazon, get a copy of the book.

Martha: We'll put a link in the show notes.

Jim: We will. That's right. A Game Plan for Hiring the Right People by- you got it under Robert Spence out there, right?

Bob Spence: No, it's Bob.

Jim: It is Bob Spence on there? Okay. Very good. Bob Spence.

Bob Spence: The only person called me Robert was only my mother when I was in trouble.

Jim: Oh, I bet your wife calls you that when you're in trouble, too.

Bob Spence: Yeah. She's meaner than my mother. (laughter)

Jim: Oh, no. Joanne may be listening to this. I'm sorry. I kinda egged him onto that. Bob Spence, thanks for being on iWork4Him today. Thanks for sharing those wisdom nuggets on hiring. We appreciate you.

Bob Spence: Thank you very much.

Jim: Take care. And that's our conversation with Bob Spence. Hey, if something he shared landed with you today, I encourage you to sit with it and maybe share this episode with someone who needs to hear it, like somebody who does a lot of hiring.

Martha: This podcast runs on the support of people who believe in what we're doing. If that's you, if you want to see more conversations like this one to reach more people, you can support iWork4Him with just $5 a month. That's one cup of coffee. You can go to iwork4him.com/donate, and I'll put those link in the show notes as well.

Jim: And thanks for listening. Thanks for caring about this message. Go live out your faith this week. Wherever you are, whatever you do, we'll see you next time. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

6/17/26 - 2151: Become the Kind of Leader Your Workplace Has Been Waiting For

Jim: This is iWork4Him, where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

In today's world, you can attend a summit or a conference without ever leaving the comfort of your own living room or office. You can glean from dozens of leaders and speakers while saving thousands of dollars on travel and hotels. Even more amazing is the ability to make connections while at these virtual summits because the video platforms give you a chance to break out and meet people during pauses in the conference schedules.

Well, Craig Clutts is hosting a Leadership Summit on June 27th from 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific, or for those of you Easterners, 11:30 AM to 8:00 PM Eastern. This summit will be focused on providing a transformational experience for leaders, entrepreneurs, executives, and business professionals seeking practical strategies for growth, leadership, operational excellence, and innovation.

And each speaker will use his or her voice, expertise, and insight in equipping you with actual wisdom inspiration. When I sat down to meet Craig a couple of weeks ago, I was so impressed with the aim of the summit, I'm like, "I wanted everybody here on iWork4Him to know all about it." So Craig Clutts, welcome to iWork4Him.

Craig Clutts: Thanks, Jim. Appreciate you having me.

Jim: Hey, before we get talking about the summit, Craig, I wanna know your Jesus story. 'Cause we always share our Jesus story for every first-time guest on iWork4Him. So what's your Jesus story?

Craig Clutts: Amen. Sounds great. So I was raised in the church, raised by godly parents. Grew up in lower Indiana, so country upbringing. Everybody knew everybody. Everybody knew whose vehicle was everybody. I was in the church, raised knowing who God and Jesus were, and who the Holy Spirit was. But it was actually, I was 10 years old, went on my first overnight camping trip with Cub Scouts. So I was getting ready to be a Webelo Scout.

My dad and I are on this camp out together. We're actually at a monastery on the southwestern side of Indianapolis, and we go camping. And Indiana's well-known for the four seasons, but it's all four seasons, and it's all of each season. And so we're out there, it's late spring, early summer, and it begins to storm.

And the storm was horrendous. Terrible storm. Not like the little sprinkles we get for rain in Southern California. This was cats and dogs and cows and Volkswagen Bugs. This was real rain coming down. And I woke up in the middle of the night scared of the weather, scared of the storm. And we're in this little nylon pup tent, me and my dad, and I look over at my dad, and he is sound asleep.

And I think, "How is he doing this? I'm miserable." And so I... It's a little A-frame pup tent. I open up the top of the A-frame window just enough so it's not raining in, and I look out, and right there in front of me, six feet away, lightning strikes. Now my eyeballs are, no kidding, three inches away from a metal pole.

There is no reason why that lightning struck in the middle of nowhere instead of one of the other tents or the pole just inches away from my eyeball. And as soon as that happened, I said, "God, if you save me from that lightning, and if I see the testimony of Dad being asleep, being confident in his faith in you, then I know that I'm yours and I want you to be mine."

And I accepted Jesus Christ that night. And since then, I've been able to sleep through any kinda storm, combat, I can sleep well, anywhere.

Jim: Wow. That's a pretty great story. I didn't know that story. I don't even know how you did that. And the fact that you could still see after seeing that kind of lightning, 'cause that's a pretty bright flash.

Craig Clutts: Very bright.

Jim: I bet it was - was it loud or could you feel it? Because when, I know when you're closest to lightning, it's not as loud as when it gets a chance to roll. What did that sound like?

Craig Clutts: Yeah, I don't remember the sound because I was in so much shock of how bright it was and how close it was. I don't remember any other sense. Just a sense of God's there, I can accept him, and I don't have to worry anymore.

Jim: Wow, very cool. Wow. All right, so you then spent 30 years after Cub Scouts. Did you go on to Boy Scouts, get your Eagle Scout?

Craig Clutts: Boy Scouts, Eagle Scout. Yep.

Jim: Nice. All right. Did the whole thing. Then you spent 30 years in the Navy as a leader. How did that training and experience prepare you for the biznistry that you're in today?

Craig Clutts: A great question. So one of the things that I love about the military is that you do get training often. And it's hundreds of years of experience in what training each person needs, and they actually typically train us before you need the information, which is phenomenal.

I don't see that as much in the corporate world. So a lot of it has to do with the fact that I did get training, and then another piece of it is in the military, we get exposed to things at a much quicker, faster pace than you do on the outside. And so if you can imagine, I was 19 doing special boat insertion extraction with the SEALs.

At 20, I was rappelling out of helicopters. At 22, I'm now entrusted for everyone to be asleep on a 18,000 tons of steel diplomacy US war vessel while I drive it, and everyone trusts that I will keep 880 lives safe as we steam through the ocean. And so you are put through the fire so quickly that now whenever I come into the business ministry world, I don't have to worry about pressures or how to make this tough decision because I'm at such a calm based on the stresses that I've seen elsewhere.

I'm not in combat being shot at. I'm not on a ship at sea in the middle of a hurricane, which I did twice. I don't recommend that. And so I have the time, the calm.

Jim: Twice? Wait, twice you rode out a hurricane in that ship? Driving? Were you driving? I mean-

Craig Clutts: Yes ...

Jim: I know it's not driving.

Craig Clutts: Yeah, they call it commanding the ship, navigating the ship.

Jim: Yeah. Holding onto that big wooden steering wheel going, "Oh, what in the world?"

As long as you're going with the wind, it's okay. Going against, against the wind, let's see, in a hurricane you're probably going into the wind, aren't you? To be able to save yourself.

Craig Clutts: The wind is everywhere in a hurricane. Yeah, so there, there's actually a technique. Once you identify which quadrant of the hurricane you're in, you know which side, and whether in the bow or the stern to put the wind so that you can get out quicker. But quick is about 48 hours. So it's miserable for 48 hours.

Jim: I've ridden out hurricanes in Florida, but I was on the ground, not on the boat or ship... because it's, they say it's bad to be on the, they say 50-foot waves are impressive. So you've got a construction business. I don't wanna mispronounce it. Tell us why God had you start that.

Craig Clutts: So the name of our company is En Gedi Construction.

Jim: Okay, so the Bible. En Gedi. Like the Bible, En Gedi.

Craig Clutts: Yes.

Jim: Okay.

Craig Clutts: All right. Exactly like the Bible. So En Gedi is Hebrew. It means the crag of the ibex or the rock of the goat. It is the largest freshwater oasis on the western shore of the Dead Sea. Why did God give us that name? So this is the oasis where David hid from Saul when Saul was trying to kill him. This is where David was magnanimous, which I love that virtue. I just love saying that word, magnanimous. So he had the opportunity to kill Saul and he didn't. He just cut a piece of his cloak.

And so it, it's above forgiveness. It's above not taking the action. It's being magnanimous. So in this area, you have the Dead Sea, where nothing's alive, and then ashore you have this vast desert where nothing's alive, and then you have this spring where life is created and supported by this fresh water.

That's the En Gedi. God gave us that name because he wants us and our construction company and our coaching company to provide that peace of mind, that serenity, build everyone's paradise one home and one business at a time.

Jim: I love that. Speaking of serenity, when you're working on your computer, that's what you want. You want serenity, and when you're working on your iPhone or your tablet, whatever it is. That's why we partner with SaferNet at iWork4Him, because no matter where I go, even if I'm using public Wi-Fi, I have SaferNet on my phone. SaferNet is a VPN. It's also got an antivirus. It's got web filters.

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All right, Craig, you are holding an online summit on June 27th, 2026. What's the theme?

Craig Clutts: So the title is The Leadership Summit. Our tagline is Mastering Relationships, Maximizing Leadership. So the theme is that in our life, one of the most important things is our relationships, and in order to lead well, you have to have connection. You have to be able to engage. You have to be able to relate.

So we wanna help brothers and sisters in Christ, business leaders, business influence personnel, learn how to manage those relationships and build them so that they can expand their leadership and continue to serve in the way that God's called them to.

Jim: We only met a short while ago, so I haven't read your book yet, but when I've read just a little bit of summary on Leadership is Not Likership, most leaders wanna be liked. But you're talking about relationships, and in order to have a relationship, you gotta be liking each other. What's the summary - the, your book probably is a derivative of everything you are. Tell us about your book really quick, and we'll get back to the summit. Leadership is Not Likership. What's that about?

Craig Clutts: Leadership is Not Likership. So that title came to me in the Navy. All the chiefs who run the Navy, they're the senior NCOs. They're the ones that are making everything happen. They're the ones that are taking care of the sailors, making the ship work, making the construction work. Whatever area of the service we're in, they make it happen. They continue to always yell or bark or tell the young sailors, "I'm not here to be your friend. I'm not here to be liked."

Leadership is not likership. So I finished my tour in Afghanistan. By God's blessing, we bring everybody home, and I'm on a run, and I ask God, I said, "Okay, so leadership's not likership. I agree with him, but what is it?" And God politely said, "Yes, I agree with him." I said, "Okay, got it, God. I agree with him. So what is it?" He said, "It's lovership."

Jim: Nice.

Craig Clutts: So leadership is not likership, but it is lovership. And so in the book, I give 15 chapters -

Jim: but you didn't put that on your cover, 'cause you wanted people to read it, 'cause no business leader would ever read a book about lovership.

Craig Clutts: You're right.

Jim: Because they don't get it, even though Jesus was the absolute ultimate example of lovership as a leader.

Craig Clutts: Exactly.

Jim: But, why is it ... we're gonna get back to your summit here in a second. Why is it so many leaders really struggle with the fact that in order to lead, you gotta love?

Because your people, when they know that they're loved, you can get them to do anything, and as a company or an organization, you can accomplish anything if people know that they are, they're known, they're liked, and they're loved, and they're appreciated.

Craig Clutts: Yeah I completely agree. There's so many people that talk about addressing conflict resolution. There are so many people that talk about, hey, you can't make this decision just for the person. You've gotta look at the whole situation. You've gotta look at the team and everything. What describes that better in one word than love?

And Jesus' example is exactly that. He turned over the tables in the temple. He had to correct his three closest disciples whenever they fell asleep while he asked them to pray for him. The correction is there, just as we're parents. The whole parent thing if we only took our leadership examples from being a parent and applied them better in the work that we do, we could do better. Because we love our kids. We still reprimand them, but we love them, and that's what we need to do with our folks at business as well.

Jim: How many kids do you have, Craig?

Craig Clutts: Two.

Jim: Two kids. They're both alike, right? So you only had to learn it one time, right? And they're the same the whole time too, right?

Exactly the same. Yeah, they never change. Never had to change, right? When the hormones kicked in, they were still the same.

 (chuckling)

Jim: This is... Ladies and gentlemen, listen. The iWork4Him audience that's tuning in today, this is why I wanted you guys to hear about this. When I first met Craig, I'm like, "I like this guy. I like what you stand for," 'cause you're a real guy, and you've gotten dirty in order to be able to... Not dirty, immoral dirty. You served in the Navy for 30 years. You know what it's like to be a janitor, and you know what it's like to command a ship and everywhere in between, and then listen to people above you.

Even though you're commanding a ship with 1,000 people on it, they're still telling you what to do. That's the guys in the... If, so were you in a battleship and the, they're... Who runs the show? The command- the aircraft carrier 'cause they're the big boys? Or, who's in charge?

Craig Clutts: Yeah, so I, I was on an amphibious ship and a frigate. And so when you're doing the operations, there is a commodore. So the ship has a commanding officer that's in charge of that ship, everything that, that's there.

Jim: Yep.

Craig Clutts: They're the head honcho.

Jim: There's no one- So you weren't that guy. You were just the guy at the helm.

Craig Clutts: I was a lower level.

Jim: Okay.

Craig Clutts: Okay. But I'm still the one that's entrusted to run everything when that guy or that girl's asleep.

Jim: Got it.

Craig Clutts: Got it. At 22.

Jim: That's just amazing. That means you, they've had very high confidence in you. Which is why we go back to the summit, the Leadership Summit on June 27th. And we'll have all of the website information, everything connected to this podcast. Do you have the website, what's the name of the website when everybody's listening to this, the bit, so they can get connected up?

Craig Clutts: Theleadershipsummit.com. And we'll make sure that you have the link to share it as well.

Jim: Theleadershipsummit.com. All right. Who are some of the speakers?

Craig Clutts: So some of the speakers will be Brother Jim.

Jim: And we're going to open it up. Just put a challenge out there, light people on fire, and let people just explode all day long. It'll be some fun.

Craig Clutts: So a couple others that we're going to have, we're going to have Camila Markson, Mila Markson.

If anyone is a believer and on Instagram, you've probably seen her. She's nanny to millionaire. She came to America with little to nothing. One day she said, hey, making these few dollars a day as a nanny isn't supporting my husband, my life, my future the way God called me to. What do I do? And so she's got an amazing story about how she went from nanny to millionaire.

We also have Dr. Martha Nestler, which I'm so excited. She's full of fire just like you, Jim, and she's going to fire everybody up. She's a chiropractor. But she now does coaching related to the key women of the Bible. And she has a story for every one of them. She actually does an assessment with ladies, helping them identify which one they are, why are they like that, how God's going to use them, what a testimony.

And we've got some starters out there like Andrew Heathcote, which is just starting his coaching on behalf of God, but he's called to it. And his whole thing is how do you take Sunday into Monday?

Jim: That's, that's a topic, you and I could talk about that forever. 'Cause literally you got one hour on Sunday and another 167 everywhere else. How does your Sunday morning prepare you for the other 167? And if it's not, help the pastor to do it or find a church that will do it. Because you need - Sunday morning should be manufacturing day. You're going to be equipped, retooled, fined or, fine-tuned, whatever it may be. If you need to be fined, I suppose you could be fined if you'd done something wrong.

But, ... that's just a joke. But Sunday morning should be preparing for the other 167, especially your time at work. Yes ... that's the, what's gotta happen. So who should be in attendance at your summit that's gonna happen on June 27th, The Leadership Summit?

Craig Clutts: So I'm part of the marketplace ministry at our church, and what I love about it is some people call it marketplace, some will call it workplace. You don't have to be an owner to be a part of it. It is how to live your faith in the rest of the world that's outside of the church and outside of the home. That's what marketplace ministry, workplace ministry is all about. For the Leadership Summit, we're looking for every brother or sister in Christ that has influence in the marketplace to show up and get wisdom on how they can continue to grow in their relationships on a faith-based level the way God wants them to, the way Jesus gave us the example, and how to take that leadership into every action that they have.

When you're shopping at the grocery store and you come up to the cashier and you notice that the cashier is just going robotic, pulling their hair out, just trying to get through the day, what if you stopped and you s-

Jim: Wait a minute. Stop for a sec. Stop for a sec. You go to a grocery store that's still got a cashier? Whatever happened to customer service? You go into McDonald's, you get a computer. You go to Walmart, and you get a computer. You know what? They're making so much more money now and they employ less people. I like the idea of going to a grocery store. Give your grocery store a plug if they still got a cashier. Go ahead.

Craig Clutts: Yeah, Vons still has a cashier. Ralphs still has a cashier. We go to both of them.

Jim: Love it. What an idea. I was back in Florida not too long ago. Publix still has cashiers. What an idea, people, you could actually interact with people. Okay, sorry, Craig. I just, when I walk into McDonald's and all they have, they got nobody at the front desk and all they have is computers, I'm like, I turn around and get in the drive-through. I want a people. I want a people. And your stupid computer doesn't make sense to normal people, and I'm a computer guy.

Craig Clutts: That's right.

Jim: Stop. And you can't just scan things. Okay.

Craig Clutts: So what I love about it is you don't have to be a business owner, founder. Okay. You don't even have to be a supervisor in your role at work. Because if you're a stay-at-home mom like my wife and you're taking care of two kids, and you go to the grocery store and you see the cashier is just down on their luck going through the motions, when you stop and ask them how they're doing and you mean it, it changes their life.

And one of the greatest testimonies that I've heard that I love to share is that you're supposed to preach, and then use words if you have to. You don't have to preach the gospel at the cashier or the cash register in order to let them feel the love of Jesus Christ emulate out of you.

Jim: No and the greatest way to... let's just say you ask that cashier, "How you doing?" And she's, or if you use your New York accent, if you're me, "How you doing?" And and she goes, she says, "I'm fine." You have to use the line from The Italian Job. "Really? Freaked out, insecure, neurotic, emotional?" "No? How are you really doing?" Then you shut up and you listen.

Now, if there's a long line of people behind you, get the person's number and follow up with them. But literally give them a chance while they're scanning all your items. It just... you're right. Because so often people just miss the people who are right in front of them, like the cashier at the gas station or at the grocery store or at the Dairy Queen or wherever else you may end up going. All right, so your takeaway, you're looking for every attendee, bottom line it for me.

Craig Clutts: Okay, the takeaway is that you can transform your life by identifying the relationships that are important to you in your life, stewarding those so that you can learn how to engage and connect better as a leader in every facet of your life

Jim: And this is happening on June 27th, everybody. And it's an eight-hour, nine-hour conference from 8:30 to 5:00 or 5:30. That's Pacific Time. On the East Coast, it'd be from 11:30 to 8:00 or 8:30 your time. Action-packed all day long. Are there breaks during the day, Craig? Or is it nonstop? And what if I miss one?

Craig Clutts: We're gonna have three 15-minute breaks. The rest of it's go.

Jim: And if I miss one, and I'm signed up and I get ready to go, and I, but I have to go, so I miss one, are they gonna be recorded? And if I've paid to attend, will it, will I get access to the videos later?

Craig Clutts: Yeah, great question. So the attendance is free.

Jim: What? Free!

Craig Clutts: We want everyone to come and hear whatever portion they can. And we're purposely doing it on Saturday to try to get away from the business day when people are typically occupied, and that's why we're trying Saturday.

Jim: Okay.

Craig Clutts: See how we can fit into everybody else's time. And if for some reason you can't make the whole day, you wanna hear more, there's gonna be a small fee, you will have lifetime access to all the recordings, all of the free gifts from all of the speakers, the free gifts from me and Joy, and you'll be able to read them, listen to them multiple times, and continue to learn and hear from God.

Jim: Joy. That's the first time you've mentioned Joy. Tell us about Joy.

Craig Clutts: So Joy Johannes, Sister Joy as I like to call her. Love this lady. She is Washington State. She's a lifetime realtor, and she and I are gonna co-host this event because she is all about transformation. What she does is a quick 15-minute transformation assessment for ladies, is who who her customers typically are, but she's done it for men and women.

And what she's found is throughout her years of this transformation coaching, she's found that it's always related to a relationship. I'm not surprised by that, because suicidal tendencies are typically by one of three reasons they've found psychologically. It's either a change in your job, a change in your location, you move, or a change in a relationship.

I'll tell you from a Navy perspective, it was always based on a change in relationship. So Joy has found that out. She helps people identify what relationship is most important to them, how to pay attention to it, how to invest in it so that they can have a better life.

Jim: Speaking of making a great investment, Craig, I imagine you carry a cellphone, correct?

Craig Clutts: I do.

Jim: And your two kids, they got cellphones?

Craig Clutts: They do.

Jim: And everybody listening's got a cellphone. And yet most of us listening to the show today have a cellphone company who absolutely spits in the face of Christianity, faith, freedom, and family, period, end of story.

They don't like you. They use their profits to support things that are completely against what you stand for. Not Patriot Mobile. Patriot Mobile, and iWork4Him hooked up about two years ago, and it is a cellphone provider that is all about faith, family, and freedom with a US-based, that's right, US-based customer service.

Martha and I switched over couple of - two years ago in April, and have been test driving their stuff for two years. They use the same cellphone towers that all the major carriers use. Their pricing is as, is similar to all the major carriers, but when they make profits, they stay in the US and they go to Christian kingdom-based nonprofit organizations to make a kingdom impact.

That's what you want your money going to invest in, not the other stuff that will go unmentioned on this show, 'cause this is a PG show. Check out Patriot Mobile online, patriotmobile.com/iwork4him. Seriously, do it. You won't regret it. It's gonna change your life. Get away from those big carriers. Get onto patriotmobile.com.

All right, Craig, let's close out with this question: What do you see Jesus-following business owners and leaders struggling with most in their leadership role?

Craig Clutts: The one that I feel like they struggle with the most is how to make that difficult decision, and a lot of those are related to human capital management.

How do you reprimand? How do you address tension with other people? What's fascinating is that they've determined psychological safety actually improves when you address the elephant in the room. And so people are avoiding something because they're not comfortable with it, and they want everybody to feel safe, when actually, when you address it, people feel safer because now they know that not only does it exist, but you see it and you will address it.

And what I love about Jesus' example, and so many different speakers at this summit are gonna share different versions of wisdom related to this, is the decision that you have to make, you've already decided it. You just don't wanna act on it. And that decision is probably a puzzle work. It's probably a process thing.

But in the end, the person that you have to talk to has already made their bed. They either earn rewards or they earn reprimands. It's how you deliver it that is important. I recently, whenever I retired from the Navy, I served at the county for three years as an executive. The last lady that I had to let go, I had to fire. It was a tough discussion. We went through the whole process. She had served well for 18 years, but she stopped doing the job, and so I had to let her go.

20 minutes after I let her go, and going through this process of all the emotions that I have to carry, she has to carry, the union rep has to carry, I'm in the snack room just getting a drink before I walk to the other building where I work. Her and her union rep are sitting there, and they come over and say, "Thank you." I've just fired this lady, and they told me thank you. But why did they say thank you?

They said thank you because of the way that I presented it. I let them know that I care for this individual, that we care for the process, but here's what you did, and here's what you earned, and that's what we have to do. So I really hope that our brothers and sisters in Christ will show up to The Leadership Summit, hear even better wisdom from other people that ha- are more talented than me, but walk away with those little nuggets of, I can do this because I can relate to them. I can do it in love, and in the end, we will all be better for it.

Jim: Theleadershipsummit.com. Craig Clutts, look forward to that day. And June 27th from, depending on which side of the coast you're on, 11:30 AM it gets started on the East Coast, 8:30 AM on the West Coast. A whole day jam-packed full of encouraging, challenging words for you as a leader. And remember, if you've got two friends, you're a leader, and if you've got somebody working underneath you, you're a leader.

Doesn't mean you have to have the words owner or president or CEO after your name. The Leadership Summit. Craig, I'm super excited about this. Can't wait to walk alongside. Just 10 days away. Just 10 days away. We're very excited about it. Craig, thanks for bringing it to the iWork4Him audience.

Craig Clutts: Thank you, Jim. Appreciate it. God bless you.

Jim: All right. And before we go, just a reminder, everybody, of our summer initiative at iWork4Him. Have a picnic in your neighborhood. Invite your neighbors into your territory. Love on them by having a potluck picnic. Send us a picture and get entered into a contest for a $100 gift at the end of the summer.

We get people coming in with pictures from all over the country. We want to encourage what Jesus said, to love your neighbor, and we gotta do that through picnics this summer. Make sure you take a picture. Send it to jim@iwork4him.com, jim@iwork4him.com. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg.

I'm a Christ follower. My workplace, it's my mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.

6/10/26 - 2150: How God Uses Weakness to Shape Strong Leaders

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work, and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: How do they do it? How does a truck driver get in his big rig and travel for hours on end, rarely stopping to eat or go to the bathroom? Deadlines always hanging over their head, and stupid traffic whizzing all around them with so many people cutting them off all the time.

I've traveled a couple million miles in my lifetime in my car, but many truckers travel hundreds of thousands of miles every year. Ugh. Now, how do you squeeze your faith and family into that mix, too? I don't know any of these answers, but I do know this. Evan TeBrake and his family from Willmar, Minnesota, have figured this out, so much so that Nathan Patterson, a trucker and friend of mine from Ohio - Baltic, Ohio, we'll draw attention to Baltic, Ohio today, drew my attention to Truck Transport and their reputation, and the attention their company is getting for living out their faith in their work.

It's all over their website and their reputation. Here to tell the story is third generation Truck Transport leader, Evan TeBrake. Evan, welcome to iWork4Him.

Evan TeBrake: Hey, thanks so much for having me. I sure appreciate the opportunity to be here.

Jim: We're grateful to have you, and any time we can get a good Minnesota boy on here, we're grateful. We always are cautious if anybody from Wisconsin wants to get on. (laughter) We're like, "No, sorry." Cheese head. No cheese heads on this one. All right. Before we get started talking about Truck Transport, let's talk about your Jesus story. Tell us your Jesus story.

Evan TeBrake: Yeah, so my Jesus story is pretty interesting in some ways, pretty typical in others. I've known Jesus for a long time, loved him for a long time, but for me, a couple years ago, I had an opportunity as we were kinda going through a season that we here at Truck Transport have now called Chapter 23 that was just a tough time in the history of our business. Some of the economic factors in our industry as well as just some other growing pains and things of that nature.

During that season, I had an opportunity to be a part of a small group as well as just getting to walk alongside some other friends and mentors who spoke life into me, and one of the things that changed me in that season was - I guess there's two things. One was in the winter of '22, '23, and my son Trace was in the hospital.

My wife and I were up there. He had RSV and pneumonia and bronchiolitis and all the things, and we were spending some time up in the St. Cloud Hospital, and we ended up there for a week with him. And it was during that time that I found myself in prayer, and I had felt some promptings over the past number of weeks leading up to that, that I just felt like, "Lord I just want more of you. I want to spend more time with you. I feel I love Jesus. I've- I know a lot of scripture, and there's definitely some meat there, but I feel like there's something missing."

And when that became super apparent was in another one of these moments where life feels like it's out of control, and I'm sitting there on my knees going, "Lord, I need you," and then the next breath was, "Lord, why do I only need you right now?" "Or why do I come to you in these moments? I wanna be intimately close to you in all moments, in all seasons."

And so that set me on a few years trajectory of really deep dive growth, learning about surrender, walking through some events in my life that just changed who I was. And then another defining piece of that story is when I entered into a study going through The Awe of God, which is a book by John Bevere, and that really put into words some of what I felt I'd been experiencing, was the difference between loving Jesus and knowing him, and then the reverence and fear of the Lord and what that looks like and how it informs my daily walk with him.

So that's a little bit of my story in terms of, I grew up... if I step farther back, I grew up in the faith, and so obviously a Christian home and family, and so I've always had that element there. But it's just been in the last few years here that I've had some of the experiences that I just shared with you.

Jim: And you're in western Minnesota, where people's faith is a very quiet thing. People aren't shouting on the corners. There's no street preachers on the corners at the streetlight in Willmar. Do you have two streetlights in Willmar? How many you got in Willmar now?

Evan TeBrake: Yeah, maybe even four.

Jim: Wow. There you go. So growing up, Martha and I lived in Gaylord for five years, four years, and people's faith was a very private thing. They didn't talk about it a lot, yet a lot of people had very strong faith. How do you- I mean, you're living out your faith pretty boldly for a western Minnesota kinda kid. So how is that, how does that mesh with the culture of where you live?

Evan TeBrake: It certainly can make some people uneasy, and I think that's okay. There was probably a time in my own history that I would've been a little bit more uneasy as well. And I think one of the keys to why it feels uncomfortable is that vulnerability isn't seen as strength. And, in 2 Corinthians I think it's 12:9 where Jesus, or yeah, Jesus through Paul talks about that the Lord's strength is made perfect in our weakness.

And that to me is something that I just continue to come back to as a bit of a cornerstone of why I can be bold in my faith, because any vulnerability or weakness we have here is strictly just in our flesh telling us that we can't talk about that or we can't share. And the thing of it is like we have an opportunity then to testify to His faithfulness. But usually that only comes out of our willingness to be obedient in sharing aspects of our own weakness, because that's where the power comes from, is in sharing that the Lord has been good and gracious to us, and this is why, this is how, and He can do it for you, too.

Martha: I love that. So in the conversation of the context of this podcast, iWork4Him, how did, as your personal life was shifting so greatly, and that you were really growing in your reverence and your fear of the Lord in the things that you just explained to us, how did that - I don't wanna use the word trickle, because I think it was bigger than that, but how did that affect your work life and how people saw you there?

Because so many people, it's two different things. And so what happened as you were growing personally in your relationship with the Lord that affected your work?

Evan TeBrake: Certainly. It's a great question. I think it's hard to separate any areas of our lives from each other, but we want to do that for some reason. And so I think when I really step back and look at it, part of my growth was a byproduct of what I was experiencing in the workplace, too. For me, obviously, that means being an owner and a leader here at Truck Transport.

And that's not the case for everybody. However, there's always aspects of what we're experiencing in our workplace that are going to impact the way that we're moving through life in a particular season. When we go home, we don't just shut off necessarily altogether what happened at work. Now, I do believe it's healthy to leave those things at the door as much as you can.

However, you don't change when you step through the door. And so there's those things, and I think the awareness of just acknowledging what it might be that you're choosing to shut off when you hit the door, even that in itself, it continues to be a choice. And so you internally are still processing some of those things as you step in the door to meet your family at night.

And so for them to not deal with the repercussions of what's happening at work. So stepping back to the initial question, what that started to look like then at work is, as I experience things, as our team experience things, my response just changed. Because before I definitely struggled with pride, I still struggle with pride.

It's hard to show any level of weakness, particularly as a leader, but I think it's harder when we don't realize that there's something or someone that fills the gap for us. And so when we can take that to a point of testifying that the Lord is the one who is supplying our need, even as a leader, then that weakness becomes something that you can use as a tool to share with your team.

And what's been fun for me is I don't mind anymore talking about the situations that I have maybe failed as a leader. And so I think that's just been a huge shift. Now, I will say and I think we were maybe gonna talk about this a little later too, about failure as a leader, but there was three things that I had written down as I was processing that, and as keys to my personal process, which is awareness, acknowledgement, and apology.

Those three A words coming together and forming a trifecta that I think is pretty important. So the first thing is, are you even able to be aware of the fact that you just missed big time in your role in a specific problem or opportunity? Then you have to be willing to acknowledge it with your team, and then that brings you to a choice of, am I just going to acknowledge it in a passive form or some sort of way that I'm gonna slip by it, or am I actually gonna say, "Hey I'm sorry I failed you in this instance, and so I'm going to acknowledge this.

I'm gonna be willing to work through it, and I appreciate what you're doing. And there's one example that sticks out very specifically to me, which is a time I was working with our brokerage team, and they had a issue with a customer, and I love and trust our team. But when that issue occurred, I started thinking about what they must have done wrong in the situation.

And I'm going, "Wow," as I start reflecting on it, "Evan, what are you doing here?" These are the people that you work with and trust and have breathed life into, and they've breathed life into me, and your position on this is naturally going to "they must have failed." As we began unpacking that, and the Lord was softening my heart in this particular instance, I began working through it again and realizing, wow, they actually did everything right, and there was one small hiccup that caused this issue here. And something that we were then able to do, and it's something we'll talk about and probably talk about more in another question here, but our purpose at Truck Transport is positively impacting communities through service.

And so over the last few years, I began asking a question in any situation, which is how can we make a positive impact here? And so it's taking our purpose and making it very specific to the situation that we're actually in right now. And so that's what we did in that, this instance that I'm talking about is said, how can we turn this into an opportunity for impact?

And by the end of the whole conversation, the customer was thanking us for our grace in working through it, and we ended up in a better place than we were to start. And it ended up coming out of what initially looked like a pretty bad situation.

Jim: That's powerful. Love that. Love the transparency and the fact that you're willing to dig through that, and I love the fact that you are willing to be vulnerable enough to ask the tough questions.

And Martha, we always have to protect ourselves from vulnerabilities that are out there. Why don't you tell us about SaferNet?

Martha: You were just talking about purpose, and one of the things that can really keep us, get us off track from our purpose is the problem that we might have on our computer that's caused by a virus or other intruders.

So SaferNet is who we depend on at iWork4Him and at home to protect all of our devices, our cell phones, our laptops, and every other device possible that it can go on. You can go to safernet.com and let them know that iWork4Him sent you. So with this peace of mind, you can get back to your God-given purpose and let SaferNet focus on theirs.

Jim: Evan, I love the fact that you, you really just shared what makes Truck Transport different. And online- ... truck-transport.com. Isn't that what it is, truck-transport.com? All right. 'Cause I know there was- Yeah ... there was another one that had Truck Transport as a website or something that wasn't you guys.

Martha: We'll put it in the show notes.

Jim: Yeah, we'll make sure it's there. All right. So you're a third-generation leader. Did your grandfather - so your grandfather started the company. Your dad worked for your grandfather. Now you're working for your dad, working with your dad. I imagine granddad - is your granddad still around?

Evan TeBrake: He's not, actually. He's not.

Jim: Okay.

Evan TeBrake: He passed away in 2020 from Parkinson's.

Jim: He's in the great diesel mechanic school in heaven. Got it. Okay. All right.

Evan TeBrake: That's right.

Jim: So did your grandfather start Truck Transport with God at the center?

Evan TeBrake: Yeah, it's a great question. I actually enjoyed reflecting on this a little bit now that my grandfather is gone. It's different because all of my memories and experiences are just that, they're memories. And so I had the opportunity to just spend some time recalling stories and what I knew of him and the start of the company. And so he started it with another individual who had actually approached him about this opportunity to get into buying some trucks and some flatbeds and starting to move steel and some ag equipment.

And both gentlemen were Christian, both of them lived that out. However, I think like we talked about previously, it was definitely more of a quiet faith. And I can speak to my grandfather more so than his business partner, but I know that he was strong and steadfast in his faith but he was also a quiet man when it came to vulnerabilities, weakness, things of that nature, he was not nearly as apt to talk about that.

Jim: Okay. But you have to - everybody listening, if you haven't spent any time in Western Minnesota, you need to understand that just doesn't happen.

Martha: Especially that generation.

Jim: That generation. Yeah. They didn't say much, and you're saying, "What? A guy that's a trucker doesn't say much?" That generation in Western Minnesota, they were quiet. They worked so hard. He had hands like meat hooks. No, I just know he did 'cause he's from Western Minnesota, and he's working on trucks hauling ag equipment. He had to have just hands like meat hooks. But for them to express that vulnerability, that weakness would've been... they wouldn't even think about it. Yeah, because what most of Western Minnesota is, is old Germans, old Norwegians, some old Swedes. They don't even admit they have feelings back then. It's, that's a tough one.

Evan TeBrake: Yeah. To, to speak to the hands briefly, I think he had a size 18 or 20 ring, so yes, he he had some paws on him.

Martha: Wow. Yeah.

It is fun to reflect on that, but to know that where he was grounded, I think that's the thing that when we look at our past generations, we see this transition, and this is what we get excited about at iWork4Him, is the fact that we are now learning to put language and to be audible about connecting our faith and our work.

That, when you said earlier about being vulnerable, honestly, in order to be authentic in our faith, it affects everything we do. If we compartmentalize it, it's not really penetrating our life. And so this is where we're at in the journey, in the movement of faith and work and integrating, and living fully integrated lives. Really ... that's what it's all about. And so that's why we get excited when we meet people like you that are seeing that there really isn't any other way if my faith is going to be real, and living that out in its fullness is so very important.

You shared a little bit about how you're getting your faith integrated in the organization. But just tell us briefly, what is the specialty of Truck Transport? You kinda told us the purpose, but what is it you guys do?

Evan TeBrake: Yeah, so what we do is haul over-dimensional, primarily over-dimensional, ag construction and industrial equipment.

Martha: Okay.

Evan TeBrake: So anything from combines, field sprayers, tractors, bulldozers, excavators, to fabricated equipment for, say, a cheese plant or something of that nature. That's the type of stuff that we do.

Martha: That would mean he has to go to Wisconsin, honey. A cheese curd plant?

Jim: Oh, man, I love eating cheese curds.

Martha: Okay, so the really big stuff that's awkward. Yeah. And you probably need lots of flags and lights and all that kind of stuff going around you. So I totally, I hear what you're saying. So really intense stuff that all of us have, has seen on the highway, but never have been involved in.

Jim: And on two-lane roads in Western Minnesota, hard to pass. Hard to pass that stuff, too. Yeah. Gotta get going. All right, so in integrating your faith throughout the organization, 'cause you've got guys that are truckers. You guys, I'm sure you have mechanics on staff, too, right?

Evan TeBrake: Yeah.

Jim: Which part of your organization is it easiest to integrate your faith?

Evan TeBrake: It's an interesting question. Before I address that one, I want to just step back a second to my grandfather and just say the one thing that is so huge about how he operated is his faith was expressed through his action. And so even though he was quiet about verbalizing it, you could tell by the way that he handled himself that he was a man of integrity.

Martha: Yep.

Evan TeBrake: And I think one danger in talking about all of this stuff is to make sure that we don't lose the actual tangible action part of the equation, because otherwise it just becomes lip service. And so in one sense, talking about it is accountability, but in another sense we could also lose some of the action or water it down a little bit of what that expectation is. So I just wanted to make sure that I touched on that, because I do think that's an important aspect of how he laid the groundwork for actually acting it out.

Jim: Okay. So good. But again, I, and I love that, but again, the culture in Western Minnesota is if you shake on something, that deal's done. You don't need anything written in paper, you don't need to spit in each other's hands- ... and you don't need attorneys get involved.

Martha: Or they might have spit when they shook.

Jim: I don't know. But you don't even need an attorney get involved because a man's word is bond. Whether they're a believer or not, in Western Minnesota, that's just part of the culture.

Evan TeBrake: Yeah.

Jim: So how do you think your grandfather, not only did he display integrity, which is honestly before today's modern Minnesota, that was a definition of the culture in Minnesota. Integrity and your word is your bond was just part of that deal. Having grown up there, I saw that. But how do you think your grandfather translated that into others knowing that came because of his faith in Christ?

Evan TeBrake: Yeah, I think if somebody asked, he would've shared that and was not afraid of it by any means, and I think it did come up in conversation. And I agree with what you're saying because there definitely would've been opportunities that weren't capitalized in certain instances because it wasn't the natural thing to just talk about it openly. So I certainly agree with what you're saying, and I think that's a testament to how the Lord is faithful in building on each aspect, and it's here in our business, it's how a lot of people in their walk with Jesus mature is it takes steps, right?

And so even we as a business and anyone else who might be listening, you're not necessarily gonna go from, "Hey, I'm a Christian and I don't talk about it at all" to boom, now it's everywhere and we're talking about it. It's a progression, right? So I think the question is great and lends itself well to being able to talk about that.

Martha: I think just one thing to the listeners, because I think that this kind of wraps it up is like you saying, we need to walk the walk and talk the talk, but also when you talked about in your leadership being vulnerable and apologizing when you've actually made a mistake.

Because the problem in the world is that people then say, "Oh you're a Christian. You have to act perfectly, and I'm gonna judge you for any mistakes you make." If we're real people and we're honest and we admit our shortcomings. That's not a reflection of Jesus, that's our flesh, right?

That got in the way in that moment. And teaching people that, that is the life of a Christian, and that is really the testimony. And so I think all of those elements are really what make showing your faith in your work impactful. Because isn't that the bottom line? We want it to impact others, the things we do, the customers we serve, the work that we, you know, produce.

All of those things come from a place of excellence that Jesus is the root of. And so I think all of those elements really is what we're in this generation trying to be an example of and talk about and have those conversations.

Jim: And it wasn't a criticism on your grandad. It was just drawing attention. A lot of people, a lot of people think" if I just operate with integrity, people will know that I'm a believer." Having grown up in Minnesota, I know that- I knew a lot of people who didn't know Jesus who operated with integrity. There's a lot of good people in Western Minnesota.

Martha: They're just good people.

Jim: And they're good people that'll give you their left arm if your right arm got ripped off in a combine accident, they'll offer it. I mean, so that's why I brought it up, because people need to, we need to see and think through that.

Evan TeBrake: Certainly.

Jim: Which part of your business is the hardest part to incorporate your faith?

Evan TeBrake: I think honestly, when I look at self-doubt as a leader and if that message is coming through in the way that I want it to from the top down consistently. I think sometimes I fear that, wow, I am talking this talk. Am I consistently backing it up? And I also think that one thing that's challenging is we're a growing company, and so there's certain things that look different than they used to because we can't do it the same way that we always have if we wanna continue to grow, right?

And I think when you have, in our case, 40, almost 50 different employees and owner-operators working on our team, there's so many different perspectives of what each of those changes might look like or be reflective of. And so what we have continued to try to just share is our purpose and why we're doing what we're doing is not changing, and that's our true north.

However, the means by which we are doing that is probably going to continue to evolve. And so in talking through that across the whole team, our hope is that those team members continue to gravitate towards that message and that purpose and our values as they walk out their roles, and that it brings along healthy conversations that allow them the space to ask the question, "Hey, this feels different than it used to."

Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it does. And that's okay. Appreciate you sharing that, and here's who we still are, and this is what we're trying to do. Let's talk through it. Let's see. Maybe there is something that we should adjust because all of our team members have a perspective that can help inform us moving forward.

But I think that's the hardest part for me is as we continue doing that, and sometimes questions might arise of that doesn't really seem like this decision lines up with what we're saying." Okay, I can appreciate that from your perspective. However, this is still who we are. This is still where we're going. And so let's talk about it and make sure that we're on the same page that this does align with who we are and what we believe.

Jim: Oh, it's so important. And you're really just trying to do-- we just wanna do the right things. And when we talk about wanting to do the right things, it's important to seek God's will. Ask him where you should spend your time, and see if he leads you to join Martha and I next week at the Faith at Work Summit in Cincinnati, June 17th through the 19th. You'll find the details on the links of the events page at iwork4him.com/events. But the National Faith at Work Summit in Cincinnati is almost here. Jim and I are the emcees. Oh, how about Martha?

Martha: You and I.

Jim: Jim, being the third person today. Jim and Martha are the emcees, and we really believe that this is a place for everyday Christ followers to become more engaged, live out their faith and work, and hear how other people are doing it. Use code Jim or Martha if you register.

Go to iwork4him.com/events to find out more. And remember our summer initiative. We wanna transform the world that we live in, and we wanna transform the cities that we live in, and we need to remember to have a neighborhood picnic.

Martha: That's right. So just remember that, we have that going on. And finally, for many of us, our trajectory may change several times during our career, but changing your cellphone provider to match your values is something you only need to do once.

Patriot Mobile is built on the pillars of faith, family, and freedom. Just remember to tell them that iWork4Him sent you. This is a good change to make before you hit the roads this summer.

Jim: patriotmobile.com/iwork4him. You will not regret it. Faith, family, freedom, it's all about that. All right. Evan TeBrake, just a couple more questions.

We're outta time, but we got a couple we have got to hear from you. Truckers aren't lovey-dovey types typically. I don't know. We've done a lot of traveling across the country. You know, they're not lovey-dovey people. People in central and western Minnesota, they're not, they're a little stoic at times. How do you convey God's love to them on purpose? You said you have 40 to 50 employees and truck drivers that are typically owner-operators. How are you - how are you intentionally conveying God's love to them?

Evan TeBrake: I think just being present and doing what we say we're gonna do on all fronts. They make it easy, honestly. No, truck drivers aren't always known as soft, warm, fuzzy people. I'll say we're pretty fortunate to have the drivers that we have. We've got a really good group and we often get feedback about how good a customer's experience was with one of our drivers. And that's something that we really treasure and hold closely.

I will say, they know that we're doing this, we're running this business because of our faith and our desire to make an impact. And so that's not a secret all the way from onboarding or hiring and onboarding to actually being in the trenches together. And so we just try to meet people where they're at.

We have a chaplain now. We started that in January of this year, which is really cool. I'm now sitting on the board of an organization here in Willmar called Faith at Work, and there's other Faith at Work type of ministries in other communities as well. But basically one of the things that Faith at Work here in Willmar does is they offer a chaplaincy program, and so we've now incorporated that in as well.

And so our staff has Cecil here once a week, and then he also sends out a monthly newsletter type of thing that keeps him connected to the drivers. So that's just the most recent example of one of the ways that we're trying to love on our team and be there for them. But it's even just in the conversations when they're here, when we're talking over the phone, whatever it might be.

We're still looking to know them and their families, understand who they are, be there with them when they're going through something that's hard and offer support. But then on the day-to-day, just treating them like we love them, like we care for them, and knowing that they're a valued part of the team and that we're doing this together.

Martha: That's good.

Evan TeBrake: And so I think it's just about consistently showing up and doing what we say we're gonna do.

Martha: Such a good example for everybody. Okay, so tell us quickly about the podcast, Chapter 23. You referred to that reference of Chapter 23 earlier in the show. Tell us about that real quick.

Evan TeBrake: Yeah, so Chapter 23 is something I didn't wanna do. It's a podcast that we started. I just felt the Lord putting it on my heart, and so it, it is in reference to our season that was challenging, which we've called Chapter 23. It started in the year 2023 on February 23rd, when one of our drivers passed away.

And what we do is host business leaders and talk about the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and the way that they have seen opportunities to incorporate that, and also focusing in on some of their own challenging seasons and how that informs how they do business today. So really equipping and challenging leaders to look at the work of the Holy Spirit and how that plays into their work as leaders in their respective businesses.

Martha: Awesome. Awesome. We'll put a link to that in the show notes for all the listeners.

Jim: All right. So finally, Evan, where do you see God taking Truck Transport next?

Evan TeBrake: That's a great question. It's fun to think about. Obviously, we have plans. We work on EOS, so we look at one and three-year pictures and 10-year targets and all of that stuff, and it's great.

One of the things that we just continue to come back to is looking at our targets, is really just we wanna do more of living out our purpose. And so we wanna continue growing so that we can make an impact and see that impact multiply. And so for us, what that looks like, I think, is just continuing to invest in the team that we have now and seeing, first and foremost, that opportunity for positive impact across our team multiply.

And along with that is looking at what does growth mean in general. So I think we've got opportunities to continue growing. The trucking industry is coming off of a really hard three-year period, which is now called the Great Freight Recession, the longest freight recession in the history of America to date.

And now what we're seeing is a lack of supply of trucks, and the demand is definitely there and going to be increasing. So we've got some pretty cool strategic plans that we're looking to continue growing both our asset side as well as our logistics side. And I think we're just excited to continue to meet and serve more like-minded businesses.

We really enjoy working with the customers that we serve. And so I think the Lord has got plans for us to continue increasing and multiplying that impact, and we're just looking forward to seeing what he's got in store for us.

Jim: Beautiful.

Martha: So good.

Jim: Evan TeBrake, thanks so much for being with us on iWork4Him today.

Evan TeBrake: You're welcome. Thanks for having me.

Jim: Remember, you could keep this message alive for just $5 a month. Go to iwork4him.com/donate. Support what we do here today. Help get the message of stories like Evan's out across the planet.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, and our workplace, it's our mission field. But ultimately I work4Him.

6/3/26 - 2149: 3 Simple Shifts to Transform Your Work

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: If I had 100 bucks for every time somebody told me that they should just quit their job so they can go into full-time ministry, I'd be at least a millionaire, maybe a 10 millionaire.

I can't tell you how many people express that when they work at church, that's full-time ministry, but when they work in the workplace, it's not. Today's show ends that misunderstanding once and for all, period, end of story. When you go to work, it's your mission field, your assigned place of ministry. Even if right now you don't recognize it is, we're gonna change all that for you today. Thanks for tuning in to iWork4Him.

You know what, Martha, for both of us, it was a high level of frustration for over 20 years where we felt like we needed to quit our jobs so we could go into full-time ministry. We were already in ministry, weren't we?

Martha: Yes, we were. We just didn't have really the vocabulary, Jim, to talk about it that way, and so we didn't really understand that what we were doing every day was ministry.

Jim: Why didn't we know that? What was the obstacle there?

Martha: Let me count the ways.

Jim: You can just offer one of the ways.

Martha: Okay. One of the ways was that we grew up in a church world that told us that going overseas was one of the main ways to minister- to be a missionary.

Jim: Jesus said we were to go, so we should go.

Martha: Yes. And in our world, a lot of that was missions, and missions was global. It wasn't even as much about your neighborhood and, it wasn't all the local stuff. It was going far away.

What do you think?

Jim: I just... We were taught that ministry was done by pastors and missionaries, and that if we wanted to be in ministry, that was the route we were gonna choose. The good news is that was not the truth. There's so much untruth in all that, but we're not gonna focus on the untruth. We're gonna focus on the truth today. The truth is, no matter where you are and no matter what your job is, you are surrounded with lost and hopeless people, which means you're on a mission field.

Martha: That's right.

Jim: And your mission field, your workplace, that's your assigned place of ministry. And we're gonna talk today about how do we shift from, "I'm just going to work, for crying out loud," to, "I'm going to my ministry place." Three steps to transform your life. That's what this show's all about today.

Martha: Okay. It sounded like you were taking a big breath for something more-

Jim: I was. I was taking a big breath for you to talk. We always have a lot of fun when it's just Martha and I on the show. We don't have to be really nice to a guest or something like that. No, we just go back and forth.

Martha: We have to be really nice to each other.

Jim: Oh, yeah, that part.

Martha: But I kinda feel like it's a little bit of people seeing this is our life. This is how we roll.

Jim: This is Jim and Martha.

Martha: So Jim, like you said in the intro, for the last 20 years, probably even more, we have heard so many people say what you said. They wish they could quit their job so they could go on, in some kind of full-time ministry. So where do you think that misconception really comes from?

Jim: I think it comes from the Great Commission, the English translation where it says, Jesus said, "Go ye therefore," we learned at King James, of course, "and teach - go to the nations and teach them what I've taught you." But what's really cool is in the last 40, 30 years, they've realized that the word wasn't go. It was, "As you go-" teach everybody what I've told you, and disciple them in my name. I'm paraphrasing. I don't have it memorized, sorry.

Martha: But the Great Commission is really about as you go. Not like a stopping point and go.

Jim: It's as you go. And I also think that it, it's been perpetuated from the pulpit that is a premier position in the kingdom. And also in the mission field, where that's not the truth. That's just one of the positions in the kingdom, that we are all positioned in the kingdom, and no position is a higher rank than any other rank. Jesus is king, the rest of us operate underneath of him. Please, just hear me. You do not need to quit your job to go into full-time Christian ministry. You just have to shift your thinking.

So how do we transform or shift our thinking, Martha, to recognize that our workplace is our assigned place of ministry? I think step one is you've gotta recognize that the gifts and talents and abilities that we've all been given by God, that they've been given to us to use them in our work, and our workplace becomes our assigned place of ministry. We just need to recognize, I think for us it was, we just need to recognize that God loves our work.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: He doesn't just love pastors and missionaries. He loves all of us, and all of our work can be kingdom work.

Martha: It's like you said, God created each one of us with those abilities to do the work that we do, therefore, he loves that work. We often talk about it, when somebody complains about, "Oh, I don't like how my eyes are shaped," or whatever, you say did God make a mistake? No, he made you that way on purpose." He also made each one of us to like numbers or to like order or to like how to fix cars or-

Jim: And some of you even like calculus.

You could get healing for that.

Martha: All those things.

Jim: Yes.

Martha: God did that on purpose. Why? So that you could use those gifts, talents, and abilities for work that he designed you to be able to do.

Jim: And you could use those gifts, talents, and abilities in your assigned place of ministry so that you can be sent as an engineer, as a used car salesperson, as a lineman.

You could be sent as a lawn mowing person or a snow shoveler. You could be sent as a teacher or a government worker. You could be sent as a politician You, recognizing that God created you the way you are on purpose with a unique set of gifts, talents, and abilities, and that God loves your work, gives you the permission to go anywhere. Of course, we're not talking immoral businesses. Just pretend that's not part of this conversation, that no matter-

Martha: No, don't pretend ... it really is not part of this conversation.

Jim: Okay. And we're not endorsing that you could go into prostitution and do that for the glory of God. Okay, there, I've said it.

Martha: Good job.

Jim: Phew.

Martha: Okay.

Jim: It's just so awkward to say that. But no matter what the job is that you have, maybe you're flipping burgers at a local burger joint, which by the way, I really like burgers, that can be done, God did that on purpose. And guess what? No matter where people work, Martha, they're surrounded by lost and hopeless people that me to, need to meet Jesus, aren't they?

Martha: Yes, they are. And I was just thinking about the burger flipping concept that you just made, Jim. We want them to do it with excellence. God calls us to excellence because you don't want them to flip that burger on the ground and then pick it back up and put it back on the grill, right?

Jim: No, we don't.

Martha: So thank you for doing it with excellence.

Jim: That's right. And once we recognize that God loves our work, and that our workplace is exactly where God has placed us on purpose for a purpose, our mission field with lost and hopeless people, our assigned place in ministry, we need to do the whole Colossians 3:23 thing.

So the second step is learning to work for the Lord. Do your work heartily as to the Lord, for it is the Lord Christ whom you serve. That's the next step. First recognizing that I don't need to quit my job, God actually loves my work.

Then second, learn to work for the Lord. What does that look like, Martha?

Martha: Oh, that's a great question, 'cause for everybody it can look differently, but some of the things that I know to be true is that if we're working for the Lord, we're doing it from a biblical standard, we're using that as our guide, and then we can learn to do that by really learning what the scripture has to say about work.

Jim: We've incorporated something in this step, and this is what the Lord showed me 20 years ago. Oh my, we're getting old.

Martha: No, we're not.

Jim: You're right. You're not. You still look the same as you did 20 years ago. However-

Martha: But I'm older than you. How can I not be getting old?

Jim: You are a cougar. That is for sure. And for those of you that wanna know that story, that's a story-

Martha: For another time ...

Jim: that's another, that's back when we were doing Together on Tuesdays with Jim and Martha, we shared that story. Okay. We developed this thing called the iWork4Him Nation. That's what really helps you shift how you do your work so that you're learning to work for the Lord.

Martha, what is that iWork4Him Nation all about?

Martha: The, there's so many, so many ways to look at it, but when you look at the nation, one of the things that we say is to recognize... Oh, Jim, help me. You put me on the spot. I was thinking about other things.

Jim: Okay. All right. First thing you do in the iWork4Him Nation is start praying for the people that you work alongside each and every day, by name.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: So that you regularly are praying for those people, and when you pray for other people, it doesn't fix them.

Martha: What?

Jim: It fixes you.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: Because you start to see those people the way God sees those people. That's the first thing you do. Second, you start looking for ways to help people over and above what your job requires you to do. So you're looking for, hey, somebody needs help doing an extra project or whatever, and you just say, "Hey, I'll pitch in." It's after hours. "It's okay. I'll still help."

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: So you're looking for ways just to do things over and above what you're required to do, 'cause if all you do is what you're required to do, you are no better than Bob in accounting, okay? No offense to Bob, who's in accounting. All right. The third thing you do is you look for ways to befriend people outside of work. It's one thing to have a work friendship. It's another thing to have a real friendship that carries off into your kitchen, to your kitchen table, or to a local restaurant.

When you befriend people, when you befriend them outside of work, they get a chance to know the real you, the whole you, the rest of you. And that gives you an opportunity to share who you really are. The fourth step is to look for ways to pray with people when you notice they're having a rough day. When we work with people every day, we know what they're like every day. We know what their regular demeanor is. For me, if I'm not like this, there's a problem. When I walk in "Oh, bother," the whole Eeyore deal.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: Something's wrong with Jim. Okay? So we recognize when people are having a rough day, and we say, "Hey, how you doing?" And they're gonna go, "I'm fine." And you're gonna go, "Really? Freaked out, insecure, neurotic, and emotional? No, really, how are you doing?" And then they share something with you. And then you go, "Thank you for sharing that." You shut up while they're saying this, by the way. And you say, "Thank you for sharing that." And then you say, "Hey, can I pray about that with you right now?"

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: But all along, as part of this iWork4Him nation, your work needs to be defined by excellence. You need to be the best, the brightest person in your position, in your company, in your organization. Maybe it's not a company, maybe it's an organization. Whether you're a government worker, a teacher a used car salesperson, and-

Martha: Or self-employed ...

Jim: self-employed, lots of those people listening, you need to be the best at what you do because your work is drawing attention to God.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: All right, so the third step. So that's, you, first you need to recognize that God loves your work, that He didn't create you... there's not an accident that you love accounting, or that you love landscaping, or that you love to detail cars. That's not an accident. Recognize that God loves your work. Second of all, you need to learn to work for the Lord, have your work reflect who He is, and learn to love your neighbors at work. And the third thing, Martha, is what do we need to do? What have we seen?

Martha: We have covered thousands and thousands of stories over the last 13 years, and the most powerful thing that happens in the life of a believer is when they learn to listen to God about every part of their lives, including their work, which is really the concept, Jim, of learning to work with the Lord.

Jim: So first you're recognizing that God actually likes your work. Second, you're learning to work with God. Then you're learning to work... Excuse me. Then you're learn to work for God. Then you learn to work with God. And really, when you look at this is like the life of Moses. Because Moses, he knew he had a calling on his life and so he recognized that God loved his work. Moses was a government official. He worked in Pharaoh's household. And all of a sudden he thought he had to help God along, 'cause God wasn't really moving fast enough for him. So he, he was trying to work for the Lord when he killed that, killed the Egyptian guy. Then he learned to work for the Lord s- tending sheep for, 40 years.

Then he learned to work with God as he brought two million people out of Egypt, because if he wasn't listening to God, he wasn't working with God. And when, if you don't work with God but yet you're trying to work for God, you're gonna have a disaster. That's kinda like Joshua and the battle at Ai. Now he wasn't battling artificial intelligence but he was battling at AI, and he didn't ask the Lord what they should do that day. He had asked for the directions for Jericho, but in the next battle at AI, they didn't. They just assumed that whatever we should do, and they got trounced.

Martha: Trounced?

Jim: They did. Is that a good word?

Martha: Tell me about it.

Jim: They just got des- That's okay. We got slaughtered. All right.

Martha: Okay, let me say something about this, though 'cause we just had a conversation about this with our friends. We were talking about the whole concept between working for Him, God, because that is our name of our podcast, name of our ministry, and working with God, and I loved the analogy when we have a CEO of our business, our organization, we work for that person, right? They are the ultimate - the buck stops with them, so we work for them.

But you can do a job and work for a CEO and really not be sold on the company's mission and all of that. When you work with the CEO, you're trying to move forward. You're trying to help make that mission a goal that gets accomplished. And so instead of just checking boxes, you're actually on mission for that organization with the CEO.

And I love that difference because we need both. God can be our CEO, but we really need to work with Him to accomplish what He wants to accomplish, and to do that, we really do need to be in tune with what He's saying and ask for His direction.

Okay. So it's so difficult in our small minds to recognize that God has given us these skills to be executed in the marketplace so we can be a blessing to others, which is a kingdom principle. When we listen to Him, Jim, we have the opportunity to minister to the hearts of those that we work with that are lost and hopeless and need Jesus, don't we?

Jim: That's the beauty of it. If you just went to go work in a church, you're not gonna work with lost and hopeless people. You're gonna work with other church people working in a church. Mostly. You may find some people that don't know Jesus that are working in a church, too. The idea that God gave you skills, whatever those skills may be. I know there are people that are professional athletes. God definitely gave you those skills, didn't He? Those are, there's people out there that love geometry.

Martha: You're stuck on the math thing.

Jim: God bless you. I am stuck on the Calculus, geometry, trigonometry, all those things. He didn't make a mistake. He gave you those skills so that you could go to places where people are who don't know Him yet.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: And we gotta remember that Jesus was God's divine rescue plan. Jesus went and paved the way so that we could have a relationship with God again, like Adam and Eve did before they screwed up the whole deal. We forgive you, Adam and Eve, and we look forward to one day meeting you. But you really did make a mess of things.

Martha: That's an interesting thought.

Jim: Yeah, we do need... We need to move along. All right. When we work with Him, we hear Him. We listen, we obey. It transforms everything we do from small projects over the weekend to big projects at work, and everywhere in between. From working on our marriage to working on our relationship with our kids and our grandkids. Martha?

Martha: Yes, most definitely. Listening to the voice of God, hearing what He has to say, directs every part of our life if we really let Him. I thought it was funny that you said small projects on the weekend and big projects at work, 'cause I feel like sometimes it's the other way around.

Jim: When I'm working on your project list, which is 72 pages long, that is... There's a lot of big projects there. Yeah. I did not get the garden wall built this last weekend while you were gone. Sorry about that.

Martha: You did a great job. Thank you for everything.

Jim: All right, so let's recap this then.

Martha: Okay. So we get the opportunity to recognize that our workplace is our mission field assigned to us as our place of ministry.

Jim: Then we need to learn and recognize that God loves our work.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: Then we need to learn to work for Him.

Martha: And finally, we need to learn to work with Him.

Jim: What else would you add?

Martha: I would add... I think that's plenty, Jim. Okay. I really think we're trying to keep it simple. It's three small ideas.

Jim: In 18 minutes or less. Okay. We encourage all - Martha and I encourage you to go to iwork4him.com. That's iwork, the number 4, him.com, and join the iWork4Him nation. Start learning to work for the Lord. First you just have to be willing to accept on this premise that we're speaking into you, that God loves your work. He has no desire for you to quit that job and go work in some ministry, because when you do, that means all those people around you are not gonna meet Jesus through you. Don't give up on them. Learn to work for the Lord, which will eventually help you learn to work with Him.

That's the three steps it takes to transform your workplace into a place of ministry, your assigned mission field. If you wanna know more, go to iwork4him.com/jointhenation.

Martha: It'll be in the show notes.

Jim: Everybody, it will be. But in case you're not listening to the show notes or you can't read the show notes and you wanna just go to the website, that's what it is. You're listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, and we've learned that our workplace, it's our mission field. But ultimately, iWork4Him.

Really, I work with Him. That's what we've gotten to. Thanks for listening.

5/27/26 - 2148: The Kingdom Impact of Simple Hospitality

Jim: This is iWork4Him. This is also iRetire4Him

Martha: Where faith meets work and faith meets retirement, and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: I've never done this before. We've never done this before either. We've never taken on an agenda for an entire summer.

It's not just an agenda that will promote, that we're just gonna promote our shows. It's an agenda for us as well. It's an agenda that has the potential to transform our entire country, and for sure our entire community. This involves an age-old custom that has the power to transform lives. This single custom has the ability to break down walls or barriers between neighbors.

It has the ability to create and nurture relationships, and it also has the ability to heal communities. What is it that I'm droning on and on about? It's the power of the summer picnic. Food, fun, fellowship, freedom, family, and forever. Welcome to iWork4Him and iRetire4Him.

Just keep listening and keep watching. This is gonna be a fun conversation, and there's a contest at the end. Martha, everybody loves to eat and everybody loves to hang out with other people, so why do so few people in today's world spend time eating and hanging out with people in their own neighborhood?

Martha: I think the reality is, Jim, that a lot of us when we get home, we hibernate, and we don't think about our neighbors as far as spending time with them. And so therefore, that is a, become a lost art. A lost art of spending time hanging out with neighbors on the front porch or having a meal together.

Jim: Yeah, I think it started with when builders started, when builders stopped building front porches and started building back decks.

Martha: And adding enclosed garages that attach to the house, so you could drive your car in the garage, shut the door, go in the house- and never breathe the outside air.

Jim: Never see or talk to anyone. All right, tell me about your - I don't know the, I actually don't know the answer to this story.

Martha: Okay.

Jim: People, Martha and I have been friends for 44 years this summer, and I don't know the answer to this question. Tell me about your favorite family picnic when you were growing up.

Martha: Okay. Sunday nights at my parents' house after church, 'cause there was Sunday night church.

Jim: Oh, you are old.

Martha: They would get root beer from A&W Root Beer.

Jim: It's got a frosty mug taste.

Martha: And watermelons, and I'm sure there was other food, too, but that was what I remember because it was very special. And someone would have a guitar, and we would sit around, and people would sing worship songs and eat food.

Jim: That happened all the time?

Martha: Not every Sunday ...

Jim: I was thinking about a specific one that you remembered forever.

Martha: Oh.

Jim: That was a pretty good example.

Martha: I'm gonna stick with that ...

Jim: your parents loved hosting people.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: My parents weren't as much about hosting people, but I remember one summer party.

Martha: Wait, let me just say this. That may not have happened all the time, but as a little kid, I felt like that happened a lot, and it was very good and comfortable. Does that make sense?

Jim: Yes. How many watermelon plants did you plant with spitting the seeds?

Martha: Oh, I have no idea.

Jim: Okay. All right.

Martha: Okay. Now your memory ...

Jim: my memory. We had a pool in our backyard growing up, and everybody wanted to swim in the pool, especially in the middle of summer. Even in Minnesota, it's hot in the summertime.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: And I remember one picnic party where everybody came over, and everybody was swimming, and there was all kinds of food and beverages, and it was- it lasted six hours, and the food was so amazing. That's what I loved about Minnesota, was when there was a potluck or a picnic, oh, the food was so good. But after that party, and it got a little out of control... i'm not gonna go into those details. I was a little kid. My parents never had another one. I don't understand why. So

Martha: And that was your favorite one? The only one and the last one?

Jim: I don't know that they ever had another one. We hosted picnics all the time.

Martha: You and I, we.

Jim: Yeah, but I-

Martha: This part of we.

Jim: Yeah, that part of we.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: It just, I loved having everybody over, and we were all swimming and playing and jumping off the diving board and going down the slide and everything. We're gonna recommend that you host a party too, when we get to the end of the show. We're just gonna recommend no alcohol, but we'll talk about that in a minute.

Martha: Hey, they're grown-ups. They can figure it out.

Jim: That's right. All right, so speaking of great decisions, how about Patriot Mobile? I know everyone listening today, you all use a cell phone. You all are paying for your cell phone, unless you got one of those free government phones.

But any way you look at it, you're spending money. Do you know how your cell phone company spends their money? When they make a profit, are they investing in things that you appreciate or not? Are they investing in things that are pro-family and pro freedom and pro-faith? I'm guessing no, because of the three major carriers, that's not what they do.

We recommend that you go out to patriotmobile.com/iwork4him, and check out a mobile company today that will give you faith, family, freedom coverage on the same cell phone towers so that you're getting the same service and really pretty similar pricing, but when they make a profit, it's gonna support the family.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: It's gonna support freedom, and it's gonna support your faith. And they have US-based customer service out of Dallas, Texas. It's super nice. Check out-

Martha: We'll put the link in the show notes for you.

Jim: patriotmobile.com/iwork4him.

Martha: Okay, so why are we talking about picnics today, Jim?

Jim: I'm hungry.

Martha: And if you're watching on YouTube, you can already see that.

Jim: I'm hungry.

Martha: I think you went for ,the I don't know, is it Italian or Hispanic food?

Jim: I don't know. I just found this really cool background that's picnic-y.

Martha: It looks very yummy.

Jim: All right. We're talking about picnics today because I believe that your neighborhood picnic could transform your community. And what I have noticed, and what we've noticed, is that a lot of Jesus followers are really struggling with the two things that Jesus told us to do: love God and love people.

One of the ways to love God is to love the people that He created, and when you go home at night, you're surrounded by other people, unless you happen to be in one of those 2,000 acre ranches in Montana, but even that, you'd have to drive by somebody to get to your 2,000 acre ranch. Or fly over it with your private helicopter.

Martha: Or at least go to the grocery store once in a while.

Jim: Yeah. Our communities desperately need to feel the love of Christ through you, and a picnic is the greatest way to do that. We need to break down those barriers between neighbors, and food does it every time

Martha: And the idea, and maybe we'll talk about this a little later, but the whole idea of having a picnic is that it's a low entry point.

Jim: What do you mean?

Martha: You don't have to go inside your house. You don't have to clean your house. You don't have to have room for 25 or 30 people. A picnic, if you lend itself to the outside, can be very casual. It can be laid back. People can bring what they want to share. If you run out of your salad, there's more chips in a bag somewhere that people can eat.

It's not about perfection, it's just about the whole idea of being together. And so a picnic just is that, it should be that low entry point, not, we're not making this a Pinterest worthy experience. Let's just do it. And we'll talk about that a little bit more.

Jim: All right. So it is something that I just... Jesus told us: love God, love people. When he said love people, he said love your neighbor. He also said, "But I tell you also, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." Why is it that our neighbors end up on that list, our enemies list? Why is that? And a lot of times it's because we don't know our neighbors, and so we have misunderstandings and we don't... relationships make it possible so that you can love on your neighbors.

Martha: Yeah. So say you have a neighbor who, I don't know, maybe they have a pet that does something that irritates you. And- ... if you never talk to them- (Jim barking)

Jim: Like that all the time?

Martha: Maybe that's it.

Jim: Okay, maybe.

Martha: But whatever it is, if you never talk to them or have a relationship with them, if you were to then complain to them, then it becomes this, all we've ever talked about is something negative. As opposed to you have a relationship with your neighbor, you've shared a meal together, and then you say, " by the way, when your animal digs up my garden, it really is terrible because, I work really hard in the garden." And, or whatever it might be. You then have that, you have context. They know you're a nice person.

They know you cook a good hamburger. They know that you looked after their kid when their kid was gonna get hit by the swing when five other kids were on the swings. Whatever it might have been at the picnic.

Jim: I'm just trying to figure out where you're going with this.

Martha: Where I'm going is if you have context with a relationship, then if you have a conflict, It's not the only thing you've had with each other.

Jim: That's beautiful.

Martha: So then they're not, they don't become their enemy, they just become a relationship that you've had to clarify something with. That's where I was going with the enemy thing.

Jim: I loved it. And you grew up in the country part of it and grew up in the city part of your life. I grew up in the suburbs the whole time, and I knew that if I did something wrong- ... one of the other neighbor's families was gonna find out about it, 'cause everybody knew everybody, so you couldn't get away with anything.

Martha: It was gonna make it back to your mom.

Jim: That's right, or my dad.

Martha: During the bridge game.

Jim: That's right. (laughing)

Martha: When they were playing cards with all the neighbors.

Jim: Did you know that Jimmy the other day- I saw Jimmy the other day, yeah. (laughter)

Martha: His bicycle went flying past my kitchen window.

Jim: We just need to understand that the neighborhood picnic has the ability to make people feel whole, feel needed, feel wanted.

And you know what? By doing all that to them, they may even end up coming to church with you. That's not the goal of this picnic. The goal of this picnic is just for your neighbors to feel loved, wanted, needed, and connected. And it's something that we need to work on, and we need to lead up. Don't wait for your neighbors to do this.

We're calling on everybody that listens to iWork4Him and everybody that listens to iRetire4Him to have a neighborhood picnic this summer. Everybody.

Martha: That's like a throw down, right?

Jim: It is a throw down. That's right. And it doesn't count if your whole community's having a neighborhood picnic, which we're doing on June 27th.

Martha: You mean a Fourth of July celebration?

Jim: Yeah. This has gotta be something you're hosting for your block or for your street that you are doing-

Martha: The close by neighbors ...

Jim: that's right, close by neighbors.

And you were mentioning something about food, people run out of food. I've never been to a picnic where they, people ran out of food. They run out of the good stuff, the really good stuff.

Martha: That's what I'm saying, but it's okay.

Jim: It's okay. It is okay.

Martha: Actually, it's a big compliment, so there's no problem with that. You know- 'Cause that means whoever brought it, everybody liked it.

Jim: That's right. Sorry to interrupt.

Martha: That's okay.

Jim: Why do I say this is the power to transform our country? Our country's divided. Left wrong, Democrat, Republican, independent whatever it may be. North, south, red, blue, whatever. Color of skin, oh, my word. That has nothing to do with God. God wants us to build bridges with people. He wants us to love on people. And if you have a picnic with people, let's just imagine everybody who's a believer had a picnic this summer with their neighbors.

Guess what?

Martha: What?

Jim: Our country changes. Because you can have conversations with your neighbors, and when you get to know people... For instance, we have our neighbor, Joe. I don't know if he listens to our podcast, but Joe used to live near us. And Joe wasn't the average person's appetite.

I loved Joe. First of all, he could cook like a champion, but Joe had a few tattoos on him. And, but we love Joe, and I got to know Joe 'cause we had a garage sale, and Joe came over. We had a garage sale. I got to know Joe. I gave him my phone number. "Hey, Joe, if you ever need anything, let me know." Five hours later, Joe calls me, "Jim, I need you now. I need you really fast. Bring a ladder and come over right now to my house." I run over with my six-foot ladder to Joe's house, and Joe is hanging from his balcony.

Martha: Interior balcony. (chuckling)

Jim: Yeah, interior balcony, holding up a couch that he and a friend were trying to lift up onto his balcony, and they lost their grip. And so I was able to help Joe right away because I met him at my garage sale.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: That's neighboring. And now, and we've been friends with Joe now years. Love Joe. He's fantastic I miss Joe. Joe, come back.

Martha: And we did bond over food.

Jim: We did bond. He cook, that boy could cook. You and Joe bonded over food, lots of food. All right. Okay. Okay, we're reminiscing. So let's talk logistics. Let's talk about logistics. Because not everybody's like Jim and Martha with logistics.

Martha: And I don't think Jim and Martha are like Jim and Martha. I don't know what you're thinking.

Jim: Okay. So, martha likes to plan everything. I like to plan most everything.

Martha: So it can look different for everybody. But probably the biggest thing is to pick a date.

Jim: Very important.

Martha: Make sure you can be there, and that you kinda-

Jim: If you're hosting the party- ... you should plan on being there.

Martha: And if there's others in your family that you want to be there with you, that live there with you, make sure it fits on their calendar too. So you have, you're hosting it. Let's say you're hosting it at your house, in your yard. Let's make sure the hosts are gonna be there. That's a good idea. And that's a good first step.

Jim: All right. And then you need to go out, and once you pick that date and a time- ... usually do it during the cool of the day. So do it 5:00 during the summertime, it gets hot.

Martha: Eh, it depends.

Jim: If you have a really great tree-

Martha: Whatever you think is gonna work.

Jim: Okay, fine.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: Okay. All right. Best way to organize food, just tell somebody bring your favorite dish that you love to cook.

Martha: Sure.

Jim: Or make. Whether it's dessert or it's a salad or it's a side dish. We recommend that you provide the main dish. Hot dogs, hamburgers, whatever you want it to be. Don't be like my friend Dalton, though, and pick out those hamburgers that are really cheap at the grocery store 'cause they're not all beef.

Martha: Okay, but here's a, here's the thing. You can pick anything that could be of substance. So maybe you don't wanna barbecue. Maybe you wanna make it ahead. If it is-

Jim: That's true. Okay ...

Martha: make some sloppy joes or make a bucket of beans and hot dogs that are all cut up or whatever. Something that can be counted as protein. And then let the rest just work itself out.

Jim: That's right. Don't worry about if you have too many desserts.

Martha: Never a problem.

Jim: No, never worry about too many desserts. All right. And remember, you're holding a picnic, you're hoping for a nice sunny day, or partly cloudy probably. If it ends up raining, plan to have your garage cleaned out so you could actually use your garage.

Martha: Yeah, just have a backup plan.

Jim: Or have a backup plan, a neighbor's garage or whatever. But it's important. Don't make it too complicated. Keep it simple.

Martha: Nope.

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Martha: Good job, Jim. It's, I'm thinking about the fact that we don't wanna act like y'all don't know how to have a picnic, but- if you're out of practice- and you haven't done it for a while-

Jim: raise your hand-

Martha: Some of the- ...

Jim: if you've had a picnic in the last year ...

Martha: okay, but keep your hand on the steering wheel, whatever.

Jim: Okay.

Martha: Okay. But here's the thing. Some of us might be out of practice.

I will say a couple more things that came to mind, Jim, is the bare necessities to make it successful. Paper products so that you have- Like plates, napkins ... something to eat on, and cups, and whatever you are anticipating, provide that or ask a neighbor. I'm hoping you already know some of your neighbors and say, "Hey, we're gonna do this," and they say, "Oh what can I bring?"

You could then say in addition to whatever your favorite dish is, would you mind bringing a pitcher of lemonade, or would you mind bringing a case of water?" For $4, you can get 32 bottles of water, and that can be a great backup. So just think through some of those logistics to take the tension out, to make it easy, make it simple.

And you know what? If you don't set the bar very high, then there's a lot of room for the next time. If you set it too high, then people say, "Oh, I could never do that because that was way too fancy." Keep it simple and have a lot of fun.

Jim: All right. And you can either go big, go small, or go home at the end of the day, whatever it may be. You can have just a few neighbors over. You could... But you know what? If you only have your neighbor on your left and your right over, the people across the street are gonna go, "How come we didn't get invited?" You need to invite people that can see your face at least.

Martha: But that could also be supply and demand. That could be like "Oh, I wanna do this again- invite more people."

Jim: Make sure you've got enough chairs and enough tables for people. You don't wanna be sitting on the ground. If you're living in Florida, you definitely don't wanna be sitting on the ground- ... 'cause fire ants wreck every picnic-

Martha: Or we have chiggers here, right?

Jim: And we got chiggers here. Yeah. So tables, chairs, maybe some bug spray is a good idea. But just make it easy for people to come. I guarantee you when you tell people, "Hey, we're just gonna have a fun summer picnic on this date. Would you come?" They're gonna say, "Wow, that sounds fun."

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: And plan it a month out thing. It's, this is a purpose, don't have an agenda with this. You could pray over the food, that's fine. But then just the agenda of the day.

Martha: The agenda I would plan would be to maybe have a few games. So if there's a lot of kids, you've got something to keep them interested because what happens when the kids get restless or bored, then things get disastrous and people go home.

Jim: So- I recommend explosives.

Martha: No. Not for the kids.

Jim: Yeah, absolutely. Give them some fireworks. For the adults ... send them out in the open field. Water balloons would be fun. A slip and slide. Oh, that's a bad idea. The insurance company said- Frisbees ...

Martha: frisbees. Croquet. Badminton.

Jim: Ooh.

Martha: Horseshoes, cornhole. That's right, lots of different things there. All of those different things.

Jim: Set up a tire swing on your biggest tree.

Martha: And it doesn't have to be like, okay, everybody's gonna go do this, but say, "Oh, there it is," if somebody wants to play or get the kids involved and- Hoop

You could have some contests.

Why not? You want people to be able to walk the next day?

Jim: You can tell the kind of party that Martha would host and I would host. I would just say sit down, eat, and talk. Martha wants things to do.

Martha: No but I want the kids to be able to have activities to keep them busy.

Jim: So that we can talk- Yes ... and they're not driving us nuts.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: Okay. All right. So one of the other things the whole idea is make sure you get their contact information. You may not even know your neighbors' full names. You might just know Bob and Betty. Okay? Get their last name, get their phone numbers, get their email addresses so you can be in touch with them and do this again.

Martha: Good idea, Jim.

Jim: That's ... Was that a good idea?

Martha: That was a good idea.

Jim: Oh, that was a good idea?

Yeah. All right. You can start small with just one family or have lots of family. Any way you look at it, this is gonna be a win-win for everybody. Speaking of wins, Martha.

Martha: All right. Tell us about the prize, Jim.

Jim: All right, here's the deal. We're doing this, we're rolling this out on all of, to all of our audiences iWork4Him and iRetire4Him, it's thousands of people, tens of thousands potentially if the show goes viral- ... which it probably will because of the background, I imagine.

When you host this picnic, take a picture. Send it to jim@iwork4him.com. That's Jim at iWork, the number 4Him.com, and you'll be entered in a contest for a $100 grand prize at the end of the summer, one person who submits a picture to us is going to win a prize for hosting a picnic in their neighborhood. You may not submit somebody else's picture from somebody else's picnic. It's gotta be one you host. What, Martha said something?

Martha: Okay, so I just wanna clarify.

Jim: Clarification.

Martha: So we're just drawing a winner right? It's not they had the best picnic or the most people or-

Jim: If you enclose a $100 bill with your picture- ... you could have a better chance of winning.

Martha: $100. (laughing)

So we're just gonna draw a winner out of all the pictures-

Jim: That's right. Okay. And then we're going to post them all on our social media, 'cause it's just gonna be fun. And really, the prize is gonna be worth $100. P.S. we haven't decided what the prize is gonna be. But it will be worth $100, and it may be appropriate to where you live in your part of the country.

Martha: I think I know what it's gonna be.

Jim: Ooh, Martha already knows. This is her, that's her wheelhouse. So here's what we're asking. We're asking for you to hold a neighborhood picnic. Why? Because your neighbors need to know that you love them. Why? Because they need to know why you love them is because you've been loved by a heavenly Father who loves you so much He sent His Son to die for you.

Your neighbors, not all of them know that. How are they gonna find out? By you loving on them, serving them food, some fellowship, some fun, and just making a relationship. That's why we're challenging everybody out there, have a summer picnic, and submit your picture to jim@iwork4him.com. And of course, Martha will have that all in the show notes, won't you, Martha?

Martha: Yes, I will.

Jim: Is there anything else?

Martha: No, I can't wait to... And don't wait till the end of the summer to send us the picture. You can do it after, as soon as you have your picnic.

Jim: We already have one entry, 'cause I mentioned this, I did a five-minute show about a month and a half back just - I was on a rampage.

Martha: Which is where this idea came from.

Jim: Yeah, and I thought, "This needs to go everywhere." "We need to really develop this." So we already have one entry. They're guaranteed... they're not guaranteed anything. If you guys all kick in.

Martha: No, they're guaranteed to be entered-

Jim: Ah ...

Martha: because they've been entered. Okay, here's what I'm gonna do, Jim.

Jim: Okay, what are you gonna do, Martha?

Martha: I'm gonna create a background that we're gonna use to help remind everybody about the picnic campaign over the summer.

Jim: So all summer long, our backgrounds are gonna be picnic related?

Martha: We'll do the best we can with that.

Jim: Can we do, can we have a picnic picture of us having a picnic on a yacht? A really big one

Martha: that's not gonna... We wouldn't... That wouldn't be real, and you said we'd... it needed to be a real picnic.

Jim: If any of you out there listening have a yacht and you'd like to hold a picnic, we'd like to come.

Martha: Or anything else. We'd love to come to any kind of picnic

Jim: I got a friend with a big boat, SS Biggie. I'd like to go on that boat.

Anyway.

Martha: Anyway. We hope that you see why this is important. We hope that you understand why this matters and why we're making this a summer-long campaign, and we hope that you'll join us. It- don't get scared. Just take some action. Talk to the other people in your household and say, "Hey, is this something we can do?" And let's just do it. Get it on the calendar and make a plan, and then pray for good weather or a backup plan and... 'cause-

Jim: No, pray for good weather. Don't pray for the backup plan.

Martha: No, plan for the... I don't mean change the date. I'm like, have the tent set up or have the-

Jim: Yeah ...

Martha: garage cleaned out. That's it.

Jim: And if you get the boldness of getting your garage cleaned out, ladies, just thank your husbands.

Martha: It's a benefit.

Jim: That's right.

Martha: Beautiful thing.

Jim: Or husbands, thank your wives if she did all the work.

All right. You've been listening to iWork4Him, and another special iRetire4Him episode as well, with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.

5/20/26 - 2147: Hearing God Beyond Sunday

Jim: This is iWork4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: Hearing the voice of God - it's something we all want to experience, but most of us are afraid of what he might say when we hear him. But really, do you wanna know what God is thinking? His answers to your question? Does our Heavenly Father really wanna interact with us freely in our thoughts and drive our work?

Peter Lawry is a marketplace prophetic intercessor that focuses on helping business owners hear the voice of God so that they're actively listening to the real CEO of the business. But Peter also works in networking groups. Peter attends events, and often goes around the room and speaks what he's hearing God say about the people in the room. Peter and his wife, Tini, are in the studio with us today all the way from New Zealand. Now, that isn't a town in Pennsylvania. (chuckling) It's a huge island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

Tini is an international leader within the Lions Club International, and is now working on equipping the next generation of Lions leaders age 15 to 30. Both Peter and Tini are seeing God do amazing things around the world from Bangladesh to Marionville, Missouri. They saw it back home. They've experienced it in Orlando at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce event, and now seeing it in action right here in Marionville, Missouri.

Peter and Tini Lawry, welcome to iWork4Him.

Tini Lawry: Thanks.

Peter Lawry: Thank you. Lovely to be here.

Jim: Yeah. You say that now. I hope you still say that at the end. (laughter) that's the goal- ... is that you'll still be happy that you are visiting after we're done. All right, we just finished an amazing time together at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce event in Orlando, where people gathered to celebrate all that God's doing in the marketplace. Tini, what was your biggest takeaway?

Tini Lawry: My biggest takeaway was that God is not only a God for Sundays and like that. I saw there that God wants to be in every aspect of our life. So he wants to be in, in whatever we are, not just the Sunday, and also, and that includes our businesses. So he wants to be there.

Jim: Now, was that a new idea for you? Y- you, I know Peter is talking with marketplace people all the time in New Zealand. But a lot of times you're not accompanying him in those things. Here in Orla- in Orlando, we were there together, you were in the room with 700 other people. And you saw the broadness of their experience. Lots of different jobs, lots of different occupations. Was it encouraging to you to see how many of them were pursuing God in their work?

Tini Lawry: Yes, definitely. And I thought it was an eagerness to find out that they wanted to have healing for themselves so they would be able to yeah, to ascertain what their business needed. Yeah. I really found that amazing.

Martha: So Peter, for you, what was your biggest takeaway from the U.S. Christian Chamber event that we were at together?

Peter Lawry: I suppose in some respects it's the same thing, because it's very - this is something very dear to my heart, is the fact that there is no Sunday and weekday divide as far as God is concerned. What we're called to pray is, "Lord, your kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven," not just on Sundays.

It is right in the marketplace just where Jesus taught. So it was wonderful to hear that kind of message being reiterated and pressed home and this real sense of, yes, God is here. God wants to be doing with you in your business what you think He wants to do with you on a Sunday. Yeah. It was cool.

Martha: So the theme of the event was "Yes&". And so that was a lot of what was being spoken, but as you guys were walking around, praying, and discussing with other people, did you see a common theme arise from what they were experiencing?

Peter Lawry: I think there was a tremendous sense of togetherness. As a business conference, it was unusual, because every session started with worship, every, the hosts, obviously the emcees were amazing. (laughter) They were absolutely incredible.

Jim: That was unsolicited. They were really good. I'll give you that- I'll give you that 20 right after the show.

Peter Lawry: Sounds good. So you walk into an atmosphere which- is an atmosphere of worship brought into the workplace. And I think, talking around the room, people were, for me it was just there was a sense of really feeling like they could be honestly themselves- in this space in a way that perhaps they have not really felt before or haven't thought they had the permission to be like in their business. It was, there was just an honesty and transparency around the room, which I thought was lovely.

Jim: Tini, you operated in stealth mode when you were at the US Christian Chamber, 'cause you weren't a keynote speaker, but you're married to one of them, which I think gave you an opportunity to hear things behind the scenes, to experience things in the hallways, in the expo hall. You got to hear things that we didn't hear. What was one thing that you saw, maybe a common theme or comments that people made about what they were experiencing?

Tini Lawry: I think they were all eager to hear what God had in store for them, if they could get guidance or direction for their businesses. And I think that theme came through the days that and that probably came through that bit that they wanted to find healing for themselves first. So there would be, there were no blockages in the way to actually hear what God had in store for them. They knew that God was involved or what, but I think they really wanted to grab it and see it develop.

Martha: I think I hear - I feel the word expectant as something that was really powerful there. People, anticipation and expecting God to really give them direction. All of our listeners have heard us advertising and talking about this event for so long, and this is just a little snippet of our unpacking it, and hopefully you will be looking forward to the next time that we have this event happening.

Jim: In 2028. That's right.

Martha: That's right. Okay, so we're talking about our US Christian Chamber of Commerce. Is there a New Zealand Christian Chamber of Commerce?

Peter Lawry: No. In short, there isn't. There is an ICCC, an International- ... Christian Chamber of Commerce. But what's interesting is that I don't believe that I've ever met anybody who's part of it. They've never mentioned it, and it doesn't seem to have an incredibly strong profile. And so that's something which, you know, having experienced what's going on here, obviously I go back there, we go back there with a sense that yeah, there's something here that's missing in New Zealand.

Jim: So when marketplace believers gather in New Zealand, which I know New Zealand's a thousand miles from north to south, two different islands and all these other small little islands. It's a great place. It's Middle Earth, as all you Lord of the Rings fans call it. But when- first of all, do marketplace believers gather together?

Peter Lawry: Yes.

Jim: So when they gather together, who organizes it?

Peter Lawry: So if you imagine that we can get two and a half New Zealands within the state of Texas y- you get a kind of an idea of size. So whereas in America you have a number of organizations within the faith at work movement, all of which kind of serve an area or a particular sector of the market.

In New Zealand, we are one country and we have 5.3 million people. So that's like what we have in Missouri. We have 5 million people in Missouri. Okay. Wow. So what generally happens is that the churches that have business people in their churches will actually put on their own events. But there will also be some conferences there that are specifically sponsored to, to go beyond church.

And even, if there is something going on in a particular church, then the doors are always open for others to, to come. So it tends to be done on that base.

Jim: But so churches hold marketplace events?

Peter Lawry: Churches hold places for their business people, I guess would be the better way to put it.

Jim: Yeah. That's cool. Is everybody listening out there? That's a great idea. We should do that here in the United States of America. Churches, we'd love to get you involved in the faith and work movement, and we know there are some churches out there, but everybody listening that's part of a church, let your pastors know, "Hey, I'm out here. I'm running a business. I'm working in a business." "We would love to be encouraged on a regular basis inside the four walls of our church with the people that we know and love." What a great idea.

Martha, it is so much fun to hear how others are gathering and getting encouragement from around the globe, and iWork4Him is designed to be the mouthpiece for what God is doing in and through believers everywhere. And everybody listening, you are part of this movement, and your monthly gift keeps the movement going. How about a $5 a month commitment to iWork4Him? Please go to iwork4him.com/donate and become part of our team, encouraging workplace believers around the globe.

Martha: So Tini, let's talk to you for just a minute. Okay, we're gonna switch gears a little bit. We've been talking about an event we were at together, but you specifically are working as what we call a discipler or a mentor of the next generation of leaders through the Lions Club. So what are you seeing that's encouraging in that generation?

Tini Lawry: Ooh, I love that. That is really what excites me because it is not that many years ago that teenagers when you were interacting with them you got a grunt or something. (chuckles) sorry. So it was four years ago so the... I work with high school teenagers in a state high school.

So we're doing projects as the Lions do and community work. So these kids or these teenagers would see the, what was wrong in the community, what was wrong with the environment and stuff like that. And at that stage, four years ago, they would point the finger at the parents should fix it or the school should fix it.

It was the society's fault and they should fix it. So two years ago I saw a change because the parents got involved. They probably remembered the time that they were helping out in the community. So they were helping in the community projects. They were in the fundraising for the, for the community.

They were helping with the environment and stuff like that. And it was really great to see. And now, so last year there was a change in the teenagers. They still saw what was wrong with society and wrong with the community and wrong in the environment, what had gone wrong, but they are now convinced they have to do it.

They said "we have to, we have got the enthusiasm, we've got the means, we can help them." And okay, there's people like me in the leadership and their parents, they would guide them what is available, and they do. And honestly it is yeah, y- you touched on something there amazing. And there is this kindness, helpfulness and consideration. I'll get messages which says, "Oh, Tini how was your day?" And then they start with the message for, "Have a great weekend." And I think, "Wow, that's a long way from (grunt sound) .

Martha: I wanna l- land on that just for a minute. Is there anything that you can contribute to that switch, why you think that happened? Or you think it's because you showed them that they were able to do it?

Tini Lawry: Maybe my way of how I am. I'm positive. I like to see the best in people. I treat everybo-body equally. I'm not judgemental. And because I believe in them, then I said you can do that. You've got this gift," or, "You can do that." So I think that sort of thing rubs off- Yeah ... and it becomes attractive.

Jim: Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. And you're pouring into the next generation, and I know the Lions Club is not specifically a kingdom-focused organization, but they're doing some kingdom work. They really are. They're an old organization. I'm involved in a Lions Club right here in Marionville. It's 87 years old. What's great is you're seeing this next generation, and they're asking questions, too, aren't they, Tini? They wanna know. They want stuff to have meaning and purpose, don't they?

Tini Lawry: That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think it's this being kind and these are the characteristics of Jesus really, and that's the only thing I can actually portray because I'm not allowed in the state school to preach the gospel or anything like that. But by showing what you are, they can come to you and say Tini, where have you got that strength from?" Or, "Where have you got that solution from?" Or... So yes, there are openings.

Jim: That's so good. Nice. So Peter, you're experiencing God reaching out into, to marketplace believers. That's where God's got you focused. And you're, and God's given you this assignment to desperately trying to speak over them and into them. Why is this so needed for marketplace believers? I think I know the answer, but why do you think it's so needed?

Peter Lawry: For me, it was a revelation for me really when a, an 82-year-old intercessor actually challenged me to make God the CEO of my business, and that I become merely His employee, and that just changed completely the way that I saw the marketplace, the way that I saw business, and the way that I saw Christian businesses being able to interact in the marketplace.

Because up until that point, I think I'd seen them more as commercial businesses with a bit of a skin of Christianity around them, values, morals, principles, et cetera, et cetera. And suddenly I began to realize, Oh my goodness, if He honestly wants to take the lead in this business, then that just changes the whole game plan, because from that point on, not only can we trust that he actually knows what to do in a business and knows a lot better than we know how to run a business, which we see of course with the fishermen throwing their nets over the side of the boat with Jesus' command and up come the biggest catch they've ever had.

But we also, it's just a, it's a situation in which Jesus himself was so utterly comfortable. He went to the synagogues. He occasionally went to the temples, but he did virtually all of his ministry outside in the place where people were. And so for me, bringing the Word of God into, bringing the person of Jesus into the business is a vital aspect of not just a Christian business, let's put it that way, but let's give it a new word and call it a kingdom business, in that place where we are praying, "Lord, your will be done through this business- here on Earth exactly as you've designed it in Heaven."

So for me, that's a really important part of what I've done, and I've seen radical changes in businesses as we've done this.

Jim: And I wanna add that it's also important for people to understand, even more simplistically what you said, is that people need to know their work matters to God.

Peter Lawry: Absolutely.

Jim: And that's something that's a new concept to almost all believers. And I am agreeing with you. There's no such thing as a Christian business 'cause a business can't get saved. But there are people who are following Jesus who run businesses, which make that a kingdom business, 'cause everybody around them is benefiting from what they're doing because they're following Jesus. So the, I love the way you worded that. So Martha, you go ahead. A- ask this question, and then I've got a follow-up question.

Martha: Yeah. So this is a deep dive, you know into it, because there's so much that we could talk about that leads to this point. But ultimately, I believe that most people in their work when they're trying to bring biblical principles in, when they're trying to be kingdom wonder how they can hear the voice of God. Because ultimately, we need that leadership. It comes from hearing from the Lord.

Jim: Yeah.

Martha: How do we know? How do, how can someone learn to hear God's voice?

Jim: Oh, so let's go back. Let's talk about SaferNet before we get the answer, 'cause I really wanna go dig deep, and then I wanna interrupt it with a commercial after that. Okay. All right. So much like this conversation is gonna go, where we wanna hear God's voice clearly, we also want to keep listening to podcasts, to music, to the Bible online, on our mobile devices, and we also conduct business and communicate with other people on those same devices.

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Okay. So Peter, now the deep dive. Can someone learn to hear the voice of God for themselves?

Peter Lawry: Oh, yes, and it is so vital. And the starting point here is in John chapter 10. At the beginning of John chapter 10, Jesus says My sheep hear my voice. And when you get to the end of John chapter 10, around verse 28, it says, "My sheep hear my voice." If that's the case, if my sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me, which is the fullness of that later verse, then we have to start with the, we've got to begin, we've got to change our mindset here.

I hear people say to me "Yeah, but I don't hear God." Actually that's not true. The problem is you've not tuned in to what he's saying. So how can we hear the voice of God? And to be honest, this could be a half-an-hour topic on its own. It's such a big one. But in, in real simple terms, let me say this, that God is a God of creativity, and as a result, he speaks in 100 different ways, and he will do so for you in the way that you are most likely to hear him.

The listening is a decision that we have to make. We have to recognize that he's speaking, point number one, and we have to say, "Okay if he's talking, how do I tune in on the radio?" If you want to put it that way. If he's speaking on one frequency and I'm listening on another, I'd better change the way that I listen. So how then am I going to hear him? What am I looking for as I try that tuning process? And if you're creative, it's highly likely he's gonna speak to you in creative ways, and that could be through dreams, it could be through visions, it could be through a picture on a wall that just speaks to you deeply of something.

It could be a sunset, it could be you're watching the waves on a beach, and suddenly there's something majestic that pounces out at you. If you're more of a thinking kind of person, you may well hear him in words. And we often hear... In fact, I would probably guarantee that most of you have heard him and not recognized it, or possibly not recognized it.

So those moments where you just get that kind of a idea sometime, I think I need to contact so and and if you act on it, as often as not, you'll find that they are, "I'm so grateful that you you, you rang me. I just needed to hear what you've just said." That is God speaking to you, because thoughts arrive in our mind from three different locations.

One is just from our own cognitive processes. We ponder through a, something, we a thought arises out of that process. But the other two areas drop into our minds. And they can be sinful and from the demonic source, and we've all recognized that. We've all experienced temptations where the thoughts just dropped into our mind apropos of nothing.

But God speaks in the same way, because Satan only gets his ideas from God. He's not creative at all. He just borrows. So this is the way that God speaks. But of course, also scripture, of course also other people. And your spouse, guys. Particularly listen to your wife.

Jim: Speaking of listening to your wife, Tini, what I noticed in many of our prayer sessions over the last several weeks together, 'cause we've been together for, for three weeks, is that Peter's the upfront guy- ... but you're the lis- you're listening, and God is speaking to you, and you're hearing things, and you echo some things that Peter says. But you often add to what Peter has said. This learning to listen to God's voice, how did you learn to listen to God's voice?

Tini Lawry: Firstly, I'm not good at speaking, so I listen.

Jim: Everybody listening to the podcast is going- ... "I don't think so, Tini. You did just fine." (chuckling)

Tini Lawry: Okay. Okay. So I listen. I'm naturally listening, and I have been blessed with a gift of hearing certain things what need emphasis or what is an emotion behind it or something like that. And so it might be in the prayers, but it might also be just people telling the story or saying something, and then all of a sudden I can pick up on, on a word, usually just one word. And later on, when there is a chance, I'll be able to pray into that. That's, that, that's how I hear and see.

Martha: Yeah. Interesting. I think that's so good because it's discerning, and it... Sometimes people don't even realize what they've brought up- ... that you pick up on, because maybe either you're someone, not really familiar with them, and so you have a fresh perspective or you just hear profoundly the, the Lord prompt you with something.

And so what an encouragement for all of us to take that and say, "Okay, Lord, how can I be more like that?" I'm sitting here thinking about the fact that you started, Peter, with this comment about, that my sheep hear my voice. And we've talked many times about how New Zealand is full of sheep, right? (laughter) There are a lot of sheep there. There's six times more sheep than people. Yeah, so a lot of sheep.

And so I think that even when someone is hearing a podcast like this, and they pick up on that and go, "You know what? I need to dig in a little bit more. How do sheep hear their, the shepherd's voice? And how do I be like that sheep?" We don't have time to delve into all of that, but that's the kind of thing that I think is hearing the voice of God and saying it's pricked me.

It's made me aware of something that is in scripture. Now I need to dig a little deeper, because God's given us the scripture. That is the voice of God right there. And we often ignore that.

Peter Lawry: But He's not only given us the scripture, He's given us Jesus, who is the Word. Revelation 19 actually states that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. And I think one, yeah, two little things I would say is, first of all, ask Him. "Lord, would you help me tune in?" Just be practical. Be honest with Him. He loves those honest conversations.

Read the Psalms. You'll find out that David was. And the second thing is, when something pops into your mind or something appears to you, thinking, "Is that God, or is it me?" A lot of people ask that to begin with, and I would say act on it, and you'll find out, and sometimes you'll be right, and sometimes you'll be wrong. But that's the process by which we learn. Yeah. Look at a toddler.

Tini Lawry: I also would say find out how God is speaking to you. Don't compare. For years I compared it with how Peter heard. And I think "I don't hear anything." And but my way of listening or how I get the words are totally different. As I was describing before, it can be just a word, what somebody says, or I all of a sudden get the picture or the overview what leads to a strategy of whatever people are planning. So find out the way you personally hear it. Don't compare to other people.

Martha: Yeah. That's such a powerful word.

Jim: And we say that all the time, there are eight-plus billion people on this planet- ... all created in the image of God, none alike, and each one of us experiences God differently because we are created differently in the image of God. And so there could be eight billion different ways to hear the voice of God. We're never gonna know, because we're not gonna be that smart.

Martha: No, and I was thinking about that too, and I just wanna comment. It wasn't until I heard a pastor's wife speaking about how she communicated with God that I finally was like, "Oh, what God's doing in me is okay." It's not this 10-point program that somebody else is saying that, that's how they hear God's voice. And it gave me permission to lean into that more, because I was like, "Okay, you're exactly right, Tini. I shouldn't compare myself to anybody else. It's my relationship with the Lord." We need to do it. We need to be in the Word and actually communicating with Him. And really, that's the beginning of all of it.

Peter Lawry: But weighing and testing is also important. One of the ways we weigh and test is we share with other people-

Martha: Okay ...

Peter Lawry: what we're receiving, because that provides accountability. Especially while we're learning. "Do you think this was God when I heard this?" "Yeah, I think it was, for this reason."

Martha: Yeah.

Peter Lawry: And you're right to use the word communication rather than hearing. We use hearing as a bit of a lazy word. We don't all hear God. Sometimes we see Him. Sometimes we experience Him. Sometimes it's just an emotion or an awareness, a discerned awareness in a space. You can walk into a room, and it feels really different from another room, and sometimes that's the presence of God.

Jim: All right. So you two are heading off into, quote-unquote, "retirement years," which we're gonna talk about on the next episode of iRetire4Him. But you're not retiring. And you guys have had two... You've had really a bifurcated path in ministry, for the most part. Lions Club and marketplace ministry, and Peter was a, basically a kingdom business consultant, and Tini's a mentor and disciple. Tini is a mentor and disciple in the Lions Club, and been very involved in Lions Club International.

But I sense over the last several months as we've been talking and prepping and as we've spent many weeks together now, many, many, many weeks together. (laughter)

Peter Lawry: You'll be grateful when we leave, won't you?

Jim: Not even. Not even. But I did feel like emphasizing that just for fun... that God is pulling you two together for the next step, the next stages of your ministry. Tini, you got any idea what that would be like?

Tini Lawry: No. (chuckles) Definitely, yeah, when we came to the US, there was, there were expectations, and we had the feeling that God was doing great things and, but had no idea what they were like. For the people we met, we were fresh people. They didn't know us from a bar of soap so what they saw and what they fed back to us, what they saw, made a change in me.

Although the roads were a little bit separate. And all these things are good for preparation because all this leadership stuff, what I've learnt in Lions and the event organization, and who knows what that will, how that will come together.

Jim: Ah, the New Zealand Christian Chamber of Commerce Expo 2028. (laughter) Everybody look for Tini Lawry. She's gonna be the one organizing that event. But you guys make an amazing team. You guys have operated in different sectors, but we've seen you together these last three weeks. And you guys- They have very complementary skills.

Tini Lawry: Yes. I came to, to the US. Peter was going to do all these things that God had shown him to do or what he got involved with, and I was just tagging along. So just... and I think I heard from people that say "Tini, you're the powerhouse." And I was like, yes. And so that changed my, my, yeah, perspective a little bit. And I said okay, maybe I am an equal part in this team. And it's just different things, what we do, but together we are the team. And so I can see that is going to be quite a strong team with God in the middle, so it's the triangle, isn't it?

Martha: It is. Yeah. Peter, anything to add to that? What do you see?

Peter Lawry: 18 months ago, I think it was we went to another congregation to... I was invited to preach, and they prayed for both of us at the beginning. And a group of about eight intercessors, six of them started prophesying over us. And all of them said, "We see that God is starting something new in you that you'll be doing together."

And when we first got married, which was a number of years ago now, we did a lot together, and our paths have diverged, not because we sought that, but because opportunities opened differently. And we felt strongly God was leading us both down those areas, and we felt that about each other's call as well.

So I came here thinking, "Lord, is this the time for us to find out what that is?" "Or would you set something in motion?" So I agree with Tini. I don't think we know yet quite what the future will hold, but there is a tremendous sense of us having done something together in a way we haven't for quite a long time. And it's worked, and it's been good, and we've enjoyed it.

Martha: Yes. That's so good.

Peter Lawry: Lord, more of it, please.

Martha: And what a great example for people listening. And the, it doesn't mean that you have to be working and getting a paycheck together in order to be doing what God is calling you to do on a day-to-day basis, whether it's ministering to somebody that you meet at a restaurant or in a meeting where, you know, one of you is in the meeting and the other one is, encouraging the other one about it. Whatever that might be, I believe that God has given us the experiences to help us to be who we are in that next chapter.

And so often, we've talked about this, you can look back and go, "Okay, I see how God prepared me by let- giving me this experience and this experience," and now who knows what's to come. So we'll have to do a follow-up. I'm guessing that's a for sure thing.

Jim: Part two coming up sometime in 2027, yes. Peter and Tini Lawry, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today.

Tini Lawry: You're welcome.

Peter Lawry: Thank you for inviting us.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers in our workplace. It's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

5/13/26 - 2146: Building a Business with a Kingdom Mindset

Jim: This is iWork4Him, where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

The kingdom. Jesus talked way more about the kingdom than he did the church. Why? What did he mean by the kingdom? He resisted anyone making him an earthly king, so where is this kingdom? Is it in heaven or is it on earth, or maybe somewhere else? No question this is a topic of grave misunderstanding amongst the average believer because it is not one of those regular sermon topics for Sunday morning. Jesus talked about the kingdom residing in us in Luke 21.

So how does that work? Does that mean there are two billion parts of the kingdom on the earth right now spread all over the globe? Why would Jesus do it that way? Wouldn't it be easier to just get it over with and have Jesus come back and establish his permanent kingdom now? Oh, if we only had the answers.

But in the meantime, we as followers of Jesus in the workplaces of America and around the world have a unique role. Our little part of the kingdom is supposed to be influencing our part of the world in a unique and powerful way each and every day. As I say often on this show, as a Jesus follower, that's the kingdom.

Geeta Chopra has an amazing Jesus story, and she's written a simple guide to developing and stewarding a kingdom mindset. Geeta Chopra, welcome to iWork4Him. And Geeta, is it Chopra or is it Choppra? I should have asked beforehand. I apologize.

Geeta Chopra: Hello, everyone. And it's Chopra just like Oprah, so that's a little trick to remember.

Jim: I apologize. Geeta Chopra, welcome to iWork4Him.

Geeta Chopra: Oh, I'm so blessed to be here. Thank you, Jim.

Jim: All right. So we always start off, with every new guest on the show we always start off with this question. Tell us your Jesus story. How did you become a follower of Jesus?

Geeta Chopra: Oh, wow, what a loaded statement.

Jim: For you, it is definitely a loaded statement.

Geeta Chopra: As everyone knows, I come from Hinduism, and I come from a long line of generational Hindus, not just randomly, but probably dating back to Adam as far as I would speculate. And being the first woman in my bloodline to accept Jesus Christ, I don't take it lightly, and neither has the devil taken it lightly.

How I came to Jesus is, wow, phew. I would say I got baptized on Mother's Day back in 2016, and what happened was a year before that, I was stuck in New Age, and I was searching, I was seeking. I would go to temples in India and sit there and meditate and just feel so empty. And I went throughout the whole country looking, reading, going to ashrams, which you wouldn't know what that is, but those are religious centers.

And then after that, it didn't satisfy me, so I took refuge in the New Age, only to be more disappointed. And one Sunday morning in 2015 in May, God woke me up and He said, "Go to church." The Holy Spirit gave me an explicit direction on which church to go to. He just put that vision in front of me and said, "Go to that church."

And I rolled over, and when I went back, back to bed, and I was like, "Okay, that's a good idea. I will." And then He woke me up immediately again and He said, "No. Go right now." So I got up, I went. I got out of bed, got dressed, and I walked into that church, and a year later, I got baptized and I never looked back, and I've been satisfied with the Lord ever since.

Jim: That's a great story, and there's so much more meat to that. I know you just gave us the very succinct version. But since you didn't grow up in the church, where did you learn that followers of Jesus really needed to learn how to have a kingdom mindset?

Geeta Chopra: And you know- ... so when you get baptized, Jim, as you, and as people would know who's watching this you dip in the water. So your body gets dipped in the water, you come back out, and the moment you come back out, you get a new spirit. You- it's no longer I that live, but Christ that lives through me, and that's Galatians 2:20. So I'm dead to sin, but now I'm alive to God through Christ Jesus in my spirit. But we also have a soul and we have a body.

So our mind is not renewed in that water, and we have to spend the rest of our Christian life renewing our mind, and that's Romans 12:2. That's why Paul said that, right? Because my spirit is done. I'm righteous. If God looks at me today, He doesn't see my sin, and believe me, I have sinned, even after being saved. But God doesn't see that. He calls me righteous.

It's my mind where the problem is lagging. I'm lagging behind in my spirit. So this book will help you to renew your mind, and we do that through the Word of God.

Jim: And Geeta is mentioning a book. She wrote this book, Kingdom Mindset, and it is really just a hand- it's a hand guide on how to develop that kingdom mindset, which is why I wanted to have her on today.

Because what I've realized, as a longtime believer- This is not a subject, a topic that's talked about very much, Geeta. It is a subject that most people don't understand. They d- they didn't, they don't understand that the Lord's Prayer when it says, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven," they don't really understand that.

They're like, they're thinking that means when Jesus comes back, that kingdom. Yet what I've come to realize, Geeta, is that what I did in my introduction. Every one of us that's a believer has a piece of the kingdom in them. We are a representation of the kingdom, which means there's now two-plus billion of us across the planet, so a quarter of the planet is operating the kingdom, and the planet is supposed to be blessed by that.

And that's what I w- wanted to really get into today is how do we become a blessing? By developing a kingdom mindset, how does that become a blessing to those around us? And I really wanna get into that today. Talk to me about what drove you to gain this understanding.

Geeta Chopra: Thank you, Jim, and every answer I have will lead back to the life of Jesus Christ.

So what really drove me was when I first came to Christianity, I noticed that Christians are not... Okay, let me rephrase. Many Christians are living as Hindus, and that's a provocative statement, but nonetheless true. They, we don't know what we have in Christ. First of all, we don't know we've, we're forgiven.

Many Christians are carrying guilt, and that's a sin. The Bible makes it clear, if God has grace and compassion towards us, who am I to then judge myself? We're not judges, right? And we're not supposed to judge our neighbor. But what about ourselves? So I carried a lot of guilt from Hinduism, because there's no savior in Hinduism. You have to atone for your own sins through a series of rituals. And the only thing sadder than that is to come to Christianity and find people doing the same thing.

So this has really provoked my spirit to get out there, write these books, speak, minister, and have people I pray and minister to coming back to how to do that. Jesus Christ, if we look at His temptations in the wilderness, and there was three of them, each time He didn't answer those negative thoughts with more thoughts. 'Cause I believe the Devil came to Him in a thought, not in the physical form. If it was physical, it's so easy.

It's "Oh, you're the Devil. Get out of here. I'm not gonna listen to you." But I believe it came in the form of a thought where it was tempting for Jesus, just like he comes to us today. Now, I could be wrong, but nonetheless, Jesus therefore answered him with another, with the scripture, not with a positive thought, like New Age teaches.

So if we want to build our kingdom mindset, we have to practice mind management, and the only way to do that is through scripture. We have to tear down strongholds in our mind. And believe me, we all have them. I had mine from Hinduism. And, it's breaking down a fortress of lies that, that's been built up in our mind for years, probably generations.

And we do that like Jesus did, by answering the Devil all day long with scripture. And if you don't know scripture, you've already lost the game. So read the Word. That's what I talk about in my book on how to attain this thing, 'cause we can all attain it.

Jim: What I love is you talk as if s- you, you're someone that's had 40 years to study this, and y- you've got theological studies and, you've got a doctorate in this, doctorate in that. But that's not at all the case. You're not even old enough to say 40. You're, this is, you're just a kid compared to me, and that's what I praise the Lord about. You have ... God has grabbed you, and you grabbed onto God, and through Jesus, your life has been transformed, and you're really studying this because this, you see the freedom that following Jesus brings.

You've seen that in your own life, and you're like, "Why doesn't everybody else have that same freedom?" You brought up something, and I wanna do this before I get to go to a break and highlight a sponsor. The guilt. Any time there's guilt and shame, as believers, we need to recognize that's not from God, because God doesn't deal in guilt.

But we grow up in a world, certainly this country, having me growing up in the Midwest, you living in the Northeast, there's a lot of Catholic influence, which talks about a lot of guilt. But the Baptists are really good at guilt, too. "You did what on Saturday night? You went to a dance?" And that kind of ridiculous stuff.

But even more not to be driven by avoiding guilt is this forgiving ourselves. Because you are right that way too many believers have missed the point, i- because it's, Jesus said, "Hey, we need to love our enemies and pray for those that persecute us," but then He goes on to say after the Lord's Prayer, He goes on, "Hey, but if you got somebody that's got something against you, s- just stop your sacrifice right there, go and reconcile with them, and then come back and complete your sacrifice."

Most of the time, we always focus out on other people that have offended us or that we've offended. But it, Geeta, it's that forgiving one's self that seems to be the hardest thing to do. How have you dealt ... Because you brought it up, so I'm gonna put you on the spot. How have you dealt with learning to forgive yourself?

Geeta Chopra: The hardest thing I ever had to do- ... in my Christian walk, and I still challenge to do that today, Jim, is forgiving myself. But it goes back to obedience. Jesus commands me. He doesn't suggest it. He says even forgive your enemies, and I could be my own enemy, but He says to forgive ourselves because He forgave us.

So I have to obey Him, and obedience to me is super important. It's the shovel to get to digging out strongholds, obeying God. And it comes along very strongly alongside the cousin of repentance, which is, and all of these are in my book, dedicated chapters to each topic. But grace is maybe how I will triumph this, by saying that Jesus Christ loves us so much, and we can't fathom this.

And there was a time in my life just a couple years ago in my Christian life where I just broke down and started crying because God just started pouring His grace on me, and that's in the book. And I realize that it really- It's true. God really does love us that much. And this sounds so simplistic how it's coming out, but when you understand that, it'll shift your spiritual DNA, your mindset, and you will never, ever go back to the same way.

And that grace is what helps me to forgive myself, and you can't explain it. You can only experience it. And if you wanna obey Jesus, look, go back to His original commandment. It's love, Jim. Love the Lord your God and your neighbor as you love yourself. That's a lot of love and summarized in two commandments but yourself is in there.

Jim: But when you look at developing a kingdom mindset, your book, you can't do it without doing what Jesus said. Jesus summarized the entirety of the law and the prophets in two sentences: love God, love people. And Christians aren't really good at loving people. We need to... That, if those two billion people on the planet loved just three more of their neighbors, that would cover all eight billion people on the planet.

We need to love our neighbors. Just think about it. Or maybe it's four people. I don't know how to do the math. But if those two billion love three people, that would be, if each one loved another... Yeah, that makes us eight billion. That gets us there.

Geeta Chopra: Oh.

Jim: So but we need to love our neighbors. It, the kingdom mindset is completely useless if you haven't learned to love God and love your neighbor. That's why I like to say it, that a- as a believer, everything about us should be changing, and everyone around us should be benefiting from our faith whether they believe in Jesus or not. That's the kingdom.

And sometimes we need to surround ourselves with other people that have a kingdom-minded mindset. That's how we learn, that's how we grow, and that's how we're challenged. This June, we invite you to join us at Cincinnati for the National Faith at Work Summit, June 17th through the 19th, with the theme of frontiers.

Build- building up collaboration, using creativity, and developing continuity within the body of Christ. This is an invitation to everybody to participate, to examine emerging opportunities in the faith and work movement, and challenges at the intersection of faith, leadership, and work. Join Martha and I, as we'll be emceeing this event June 17th through the 19th in Cincinnati. Check it out online, faithatworksummit2026.org.

So Geeta, tell us the heart behind your book. What drove you to say, "I have got to write this"? I got a guess as to what it would be, but what's the real reason?

Geeta Chopra: Yeah, and I b- I built, I wrote that book alongside building my company, which is the Christian Business Directory, so a lot of lessons from building my startup are in there. And God told me to put all those lessons in a book because, when you are a Christian entrepreneur, God exposes all the unhealed parts of you. Someone said that, and I really appreciated that quote. I took it-

Jim: Say that again. Nice and slow, 'cause it was good

Geeta Chopra: When you become a Christian entrepreneur, God exposes all the unhealed parts of you.

Whe- whatever it is, pride, insecurity, greed, stubbornness, right? So God showed me some things that I needed to repent from, and I wouldn't have unless they came face to face with me in my company, 'cause it's easy to just put things aside if they're in your personal life. "I'll deal with it later."

But if you want to do well and, if your revenue's at stake, you have to face, get up and face certain things every day, which are personality flaws or, character defects that God still wants to build. God built patience in me, for example, and I believe that's one of the chapters.

Jim: You didn't pray for patience, did you?

Geeta Chopra: Oh, yeah, how dare I do that, right? And be careful what you ask for, because I'm much more patient than I was a year ago sitting in this chair. But also sitting in this chair today I know that Jesus Christ owns my time, talent, and treasure. Nothing belongs to me.

It's all owned by him. And God gave Moses the grace or the blueprint to build the tabernacle. He gave Noah the blueprint to build the ark, and he gave David the blueprint to build the temple. And look, God gave me the blu- blueprint, to build this company, and I have to do it through obedience. So there was just too much pouring into me to not write this book.

Jim: Oh, okay. Hang on. You just said something so powerful we have got to stop there for just a second. I don't mean to interrupt you, because we are talking with Geeta Chopra. She wrote the book Kingdom Mindset. I recommend you get a copy of it. It's available on Amazon.

This blueprint thing. Again, I grew up white evangelical, and I say that because that really does clarify exactly where I grew up. I grew up in a church that talks a lot about reaching people of, for evangelism, not a lot about the kingdom. I grew up in a church that talks a lot about the application of my faith to Sunday and not to any other hour of the week.

Kingdom Mindset deals differently with that. And as a business guy, I've been an entrepreneur since I was eight years old. I started selling door-to-door greeting cards as an eight-year-old, so that's a long time ago. And Geeta, what I learned just in June of 2018 was that God has a blueprint for me.

If I would just ask him for the answers, he would give them to me. And then a buddy of mine wrote a book, oh, I suppose right around that same time that as our... It's called Our Unfair Advantage, Dr. Jim Harris. As we have the Holy Spirit in us, he has access to all the answers in the entire world, but we have to ask.

So how did you develop this kingdom mindset to understand that, how did you come to the understanding that God's got a blueprint for you?

Geeta Chopra: John 16:13 says, "I will tell you what's to come," right? So we have that upper advantage, and I talk a lot about that in my book too, 'cause God saved me from going to see psychics and astrologers, which is a large part of Hinduism.

And when I realized that the Holy Spirit will just tell you the future and I said, "I'm gonna give that up, and I'm gonna follow you forever, Lord." And ever since then, He tells me what's to come, and I'm so grateful. I don't take that lightly sitting here. I say this with great humility, 'cause not everyone hears from Him in that way.

But, it's, how did He tell me? I pray into it. A lot of my answers come in the morning. My morning time is very precious. I don't compromise that for anyone. I'll wake up before sunrise and I don't like waking up in the morning. Before I got saved, my flesh loves to sleep in.

That's the best part of sleeping for me. But I'll hear from God when I sacrifice that sleep, and I notice on the days that I don't hear from Him as much or a certain revelation doesn't come through. But, when you walk with the Lord and you really spend time in His presence, which is the Word of God, and even fellowship in the presence of other believers, such as yourself, this conversation, God will speak to you, and when you're worshiping at church, i'll get, I'll download revelation about what I need to do in my business when I'm worshiping Him a- singing a song or something. So it comes in different ways.

Jim: But you also have to balance that with the fact that we don't always get the answers we want. Not, not- ... not that we want, but we don't always get the answers that we're asking for.

Because sometimes God just wants us to walk in faith. He may tell us to do the most ridiculous thing when He gives you that blueprint, and you're like, "Yeah, God, but that doesn't work. This is... you live in Connecticut. This doesn't work on the East Coast. I live in Missouri. It doesn't work in the Midwest either, God. What are You thinking?"

And He's "But that's what I'm asking you to do." That's where faith comes in. He may describe to you what the next steps are, and you have to work past the, "But as a businessperson, that just doesn't make sense, God. H- Have You had your coffee this morning? Are You thinking straight?"

For me, it would be, "Mountain Dew, God. You need Mountain Dew. We're not... We need some clarity on this." But that's really... Sometimes God gives us a blueprint, Geeta, that doesn't really make sense. Like- Yeah ... yours and your situation. Come on. Tell everybody your situation. God gave you a blueprint to run a Christian company, the Christian business directory, then He told you to do it in a what?

Geeta Chopra: If I told you all the things the Holy Spirit told me that didn't make sense, I'd, I think you'd be shocked, really shocked. There's times where I've been sick and God said, "No, don't take that medicine," even though I knew it was the medicine, and He said, "No, this is something spiritual. I'm healing you in a different way."

Most believers wouldn't do that. And, God has called me to such a standard of obedience, and He tested me. He tested me the way He tested Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness because He said, "If you obey me with this small thing, I'll give you bigger things." So there was a series of obediences before He gave me this company, 'cause I believe this company's gonna be huge.

And even the way I built the company. He's, He told me to hire Muslims to, as my first team of developers. I hired them. I eventually had to fire them, but I didn't fire them until the Holy Spirit told me to fire them. I wanted to get rid of them long before I actually did, but I obeyed the Holy Spirit. Why? Back then it didn't make sense. Today it does. So there's been a s-

Jim: Wait wait ... s- Just explain why. Would you just stop jumping over? You just wanna get to the details. Tell us those details. Why does it make sense today and it didn't make sense then? What do you know now that you didn't know then?

Geeta Chopra: Yeah, and I'm trying to be careful on what I can reveal publicly. But, I- God used me to minister to them is probably the summary of it, and He used them to build patience and character in me, which I'm still using today with the Christians that I eventually hired, thank God. Wait a minute. But God put me through it.

Jim: Which was harder, working with the Muslims or the Christians? Don't answer that question on the air. Yeah. Okay.

Geeta Chopra: No, it's hands down working with Muslims- ... because y- they don't have the conviction of the Holy Spirit. When you work with Christians, there's always gonna be that understanding or that repentance the next day if someone makes a mistake, the humility, and if there's not, you just pray for that conviction.

The Holy Spirit can speak to another Christian. I don't know if it's easy as, for Him to speak to an unbeliever, right? I know He spoke to me when I was an unbeliever and told me to get up and go to church that morning, but in my experience it's easier once someone has that seed in them, that's it. It never goes away.

So you can pray into that. But look, there was a lot of things the Holy Spirit asked me to do that just don't make sense, and I know that my family thought I was crazy, my church, some of my pastors even were like, "What is... What? That's not the way, that, it's not rational." So I put it in my book, Jim.

The Holy Spirit's word is not always gonna make sense in human terms, and most believers can't get over that, and they miss their destiny. They miss a destiny moment at least. And I made it a point to not do that. I don't care what God tells me, I will do it. I don't care how crazy it sounds, with the grace of God I'll do it. So far anyway. Praise God.

Jim: It's so true. Everything you just said was, is so true, but that's because we need to be trained. That's why more discipleship, not a program, but a lifestyle needs to happen. Because Geeta, as you've learned all the things you're learning about, how many young women are you pouring your training into? Because that's how it passes on, that's how it grows. How many women are you pouring your life into?

Geeta Chopra: Three people have come up to me the last month and asked me to mentor them. Of course, they're all women. And I found that really cool because, it's sometimes when you repent and you feel like you're at your lowest point or you just committed a sin "Oh, I can't believe I made that mistake again."

And it's at that time, I'll get the phone call like, "Hey, can you mentor me?" Or like... And it's God's way of showing me, "I'm still using you. I love you." And it's those moments, Jim, that are destiny moments that just changes everything. But yes, God does want me to mentor people, and He has called me to that standard, so I, I have a responsibility. It's, we can't be lazy Christians. We can't be lazy Christians here.

Jim: Y- because those two words don't go together. If you're a believer and you'll find that I don't use the word Christian very often on this show because people don't really know what it means. But when they say they're a Jesus follower or a believer in Jesus, then that's a whole different world.

It's easy to say, "I'm a Christian." It's another thing to say, "I follow Jesus." Because people know about Jesus, everybody knows about Jesus on this planet. They know about Him. They know that He had the different standard, and we need to follow it. I wanna talk about the Christian business directory.

I wanna take a break here for just a second. Most of us use our mobile device or our computer not only to listen to music and podcasts, but also to conduct business and communicate with other people. Imagine if you get a virus on your device and you can't use it for its intended purpose. It will only set you back on time, waste your energy, but also it may compromise the work you're doing.

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Geeta, God not only directed you to write this book, Kingdom Mindset, which we've just barely skimmed the surface of, but he also said, "Hey, build the Christian business directory." Tell us about this project God's got you working on.

Geeta Chopra: Yeah. So I was in a, I was in a partnership with another person for a trucking company, a family member, and it suddenly went silent, so my ownership just became, I became a silent partner, and I had some time on my hands.

And God wanted to use my time for the kingdom, so in that exact moment, He told me, "Get up, build this company." He gave me the vision. I was on an airplane heading to Florida, I remember, and I was doing an interview for my book actually going to Florida for that. And He spoke to me, and He told me what to do, and He gave me, He laid it all out, so I did it.

And what we're doing is we're building a twofold purpose directory, supply side and demand side. So one, we're supplying the Christian small business owner a platform to list their business and be s- seen by the world and benefit from our SEO. And then we're providing a safe platform for the Christian consumer to find professionals that uphold their biblical values.

So we vet all these professionals and we put the two of them together in one place so you can go happy fishing. And we do that because for such a time as this in the secular marketplace it's politically incorrect to do that, but God called me out, say, "Look, this is much needed. I'll support you. I'll back you up. I'll make sure it takes off." So this is his kingdom that we're building, and we've had a great public response. Many people are excited about it.

Jim: So Geeta, is the people that you've got on the website, is it right now primarily located in the Northeast, the business that you're dealing with? Or is this expanding nationwide already?

Geeta Chopra: Oh, that's way, way too small for the Holy Spirit. It's global. He told me every country. So we've got partners in Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Kenya, UK, hopefully Poland now. We're looking at Australia. We're available in every country, and we're looking at making partnerships in every country.

Jim: Wow. Wow, what a vision. The vetting thing is something that I wanna hit on because that, there's a lot of directories that supposedly list Christians on them, and I've experienced some of them are neat and some of them are not. You mentioned SEO, so this is all online. How do you make sure that these are people that are gonna do what they say they're gonna do?

Geeta Chopra: So they have free will, I'll just- ... preface it by that, but my personal guarantee to every consumer is that I will vet them before they ever create a profile on our app. So they're asked to sign a statement of faith, and if they do sign it they get a golden cross verification on their profile.

If they don't. So buyer beware if someone has not signed it, they won't have that golden cross. Now the next question is, the obvious one, is if they do sign it and they're not really Christian, they just signed it they'll be eventually be exposed. That's my prayer. We're gonna be praying daily, and we have a public review system to back that up.

So if you sign the golden cross sorry the statement of faith and you receive a golden cross, but then you're not really acting in the principles of the Lord, you're gonna get bad public reviews, 'cause we allow consumers to leave reviews on there as well. And we can remove people, so we're gonna have a team, proactively doing that and monitoring that as well. I- But we trust the Lord to bring the right people.

Jim: How do you find this online?

Geeta Chopra: So we're going live soon. It's excellencedirectory.com. Please go there, check out our landing page. Join the wait list. This may be live by the time this pro- show airs.

Jim: Okay. Very good. Excellencedirectory.com. Excellencedirectory.com. Because as believers, everything about us should be defined by the excellence we demonstrate in our work. No question. Because everything about us has been changed because of the power of the Holy Spirit inside of us. Geeta, I love this conversation. We could talk for five hours, I know that, but we're limited.

I'd like to give you the last almost the last word, but what final words of encouragement do you have for everybody listening today, whether it's about the kingdom mindset, running a business what ... Final word to the audience today.

Geeta Chopra: Wow. Something deep in my heart and just heavy on my spirit is the Bible says the repentance of God, sorry, the goodness of God brings the repentance of man.

So I just wanna encourage anyone out there who's heavy laden and carrying sin and trying to do it in their own way, and I'm speaking to believers and unbelievers right now. Go and ask Jesus for his grace. Just lay it at his feet. Give him your burden, give him your heaviness, 'cause he really does love you.

And, you have a great destiny ahead and the Lord just loves you beyond you can ever know, so give him a chance. And if you don't know Jesus, I really wanna encourage you that, look at my background, where I came from as a Hindu, from New Age, to conf- from confusion to the truth, capital T.

Give Jesus a chance. Ask him who he is. Ask him to reveal himself in your life, and you will never look back.

Jim: Geeta Chopra, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today, th- for sharing your story. I have a feeling this is only one of many interviews we'll do over the years, because as God reveals things to you, you're gonna need to reveal those to many other people. Geeta, thank you for being on iWork4Him today.

Geeta Chopra: God bless.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. I'm a Christ follower. My workplace, it's my mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him

5/6/26 - 2145: An Invitation to God's Mulligan for Life

Jim: This is iWork4Him. This is also iRetire4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and faith meets retirement, and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: I grew up playing golf. It was the only place my dad and I could talk. Dad loved golf and retired so he could play almost every day. I challenged dad often about his golfing, asking him, is there a point to your golfing, dad? What are you gonna say to God when you walk into heaven and he asks you, what did you do with your 27 years of retirement? Dad would say, I shot my age a couple of times.

Golf is known as "a good walk spoiled" by the famous author, Mark Twain, but to Challenge Golf, it's known as a place where ministry begins. And Ron 3-Putt Potter, he loves golf. Apparently he has a problem with putting, but he loves golf. Challenge golf is focused on using the game of golf to minister to those who are struggling with the realities of life, one golfer at a time. Wes Kleiner joined the board of directors four years ago and is now the executive director of Challenge Golf. And both Wes and Ron join us today.

They could be retired, but now they're working harder than ever and the results are out of this world. Ron and Wes, welcome to iWork4Him and iRetire4Him.

Ron Potter: Thank you, Jim and Martha. Thank you, Jim and Martha, for having us.

Jim: Oh, you bet. Ron, where did the love of golf enter your life?

Ron Potter: I actually didn't start playing golf till after I played baseball in college. I went to a small school up in Upper East Tennessee, near Elizabeth. It was called Milligan. And basically it was a curve ball that got me a college education. And I thank the Lord for that. 'Cause I was a pitcher. And then when I got outta school, I was competitive, so I wanted something to do. So my dad and I started playing golf, and so that's when I actually fell in love with the game.

Jim: Wow. So where did Jesus enter your life in that whole equation?

Ron Potter: That was a long time before college. I was 11 years old and I felt convicted about my sins and I started asking my parents questions, and it was back in the day when the pastor would actually come out and visit you at your house, and the pastor came out to my house and he led me to the Lord. And it's changed my life ever since.

Jim: So before Challenge Golf, how did your faith impact your work?

Ron Potter: I was in corporate sales for many years and I would take clients out to the golf course and I would take 'em to lunch. And of course I wanted to share my faith with them because it was real in my life. It had changed my life, and I wanted them to know about Jesus as well.

Martha: That's so good. And I wanna hear - Ron, I guess for our listeners, we met almost five years ago, and I think our listeners need a to hear or have a reminder of about the mission of Challenge Golf. What is it all about?

Ron Potter: Absolutely. We wanna share the good news with a million golfers, and that was the original vision, and that was back in the year 2004. And the Lord has just laid it on my heart. I had two businesses I was running and owned and operated, and I sold one and I closed the other. And about the time that you came, and I remember you came to the Tim Tebow event, and I think it was at the Carnegie Hotel in Johnson City, Tennessee. And it was about that time that we wanted to start making Challenge Golf evangelistic.

Jim: We also did the events at Macklemore, which that was gorgeous. What a place that was.

Ron Potter: Yeah, that's an incredible venue. And we still go there each year. And they're friends of the ministry and it's always great to have a venue like that. They've added a new golf course too, Jim, and they've got this hotel resort now that makes it easy for us to have a banquet.

Jim: Nice. When you say you wanna reach a million golfers for Christ, how does that happen when you're out playing golf? 'Cause when you're playing golf, you gotta concentrate on one thing because between the time when you're taking your back swing and you come back and you wanna hit the ball, 'cause I get distracted between the back swing and the forward swing, it's a very long period of time. I don't have time to think about anything else. How do you intermix all of that in one?

Ron Potter: We don't share Jesus on the golf course itself. We do it either prior to the event or after the event. We have banquets and we have guest speakers, and a lot of times it's ordained pastors that come and share the good news. Or it might be someone like Tim Tebow or Darrell Strawberry or Tom Lehman, or some of our good friends that who have the celebrity status and then when they show up, of course that helps us attract the crowd.

Martha: Yeah.

Ron Potter: But by the way, we're doing free golf events each month with each chapter. Just the word free attracts a lot of golfers and it helps us to book out these events each time we do one.

Jim: Therefore you're not paying for the frustration. You actually get free frustration. (laughter)

Martha: I like that. Oh, that's awesome. I love the concept because you are attracting people in a, to an area that they're already interested in, but you are giving them no obstacles for getting there. In fact, you're enticing them by the people that they can maybe hear from and learn from. Tell us about some of the amazing miracles that you've seen God do since the onset of Challenge Golf began.

Ron Potter: One that comes to mind was a gentleman by the name of Scotty Fitzgerald. He calls our chapter director one Sunday afternoon. He said - now keep in mind he came to an event three years prior to calling our chapter director - and he said, I was at Black Creek in Chattanooga three years ago, and I remember this guy named 3-Putt Potter. He probably said, I remember this fat ugly guy named three put Potter, (laugher) but Gary didn't tell me that, and Gary just said he, he said, Ron, he's in the hospital and he's got liver cancer.

And he asked that we come up and see him. So I stopped what I was doing. We went up on a Sunday afternoon, and I remember we led Scotty to the Lord that day. And it changed his life. And now I know that we'll spend eternity with Scotty. And we'll play the Real Master's Invitational once we get to Heaven.

Jim: Oh, you think there's gonna be golf in heaven?

Ron Potter: Absolutely. Because Lord gives us the desires of our heart.

Martha: Eternal golf. (chuckling)

Jim: But you will never be able to play Jesus, cause He is gonna have a perfect swing every time.

Ron Potter: True. There's no bogies in heaven either.

Martha: But there's also no crying, this is a good thing when it comes to golf.

Jim: I just can't imagine chipping through heaven.

Martha: What a great miracle though, to actually share. That's just I'm sure the tip of the iceberg, but what a victory that you guys open the door, that to create a relationship that could then be called upon. 'Cause often people call upon the Lord and are looking for that in their desperate time of need and he knew where to go, and you made that possible through Challenge Golf. That is such a great story.

Jim: I love that. All right. Most of us use our mobile devices and our computers not only to listen to music and podcasts, but also to conduct business and communicate with others. Imagine if you get a virus on your device and you can't use it for its intended purposes. It will only set you back on time and waste energy and potentially compromise the work you're doing. SaferNet is a trusted partner of iWork4Him and iRetire4Him that we've installed on all of our mobile devices and computers.

Their virus protection, VPN, 84 web filters, keep the bad guys out so you can keep doing the Kingdom of God work that he has called you to do. Check out safer net.com. Let them know that iWork4Him sent you. Alright, so Wes heading over to you. Where did your love of golf come from?

Wes Kliner: I started golfing with my dad when I was probably 11 years old, maybe 12. He had an older set of clubs he cut down a little bit. He'd take me out to the range. We'd hit balls. When I started hitting him a little bit more consistently, he would take me out with he and his brother and a friend of theirs, and I would be the guy that would have to find all the balls in the rough.

But I got some shots in and, when I got into high school, I just exploded. I loved it. Started playing all the time with buddies and kept playing with my dad. Never could beat my dad until I got into high school.

Jim: Oh, you did? You've beaten your dad. I never beat my dad ever in golf. I never got to do it.

Wes Kliner: Hey, he was a very busy man. He was my, he's the guy I looked up to. A very wonderful servant of God, took care of all of his family. He was the caretaker for his mom, his dad, his sister, who was invalid. So I had a good role model growing up. I really did.

Martha: That's fabulous.

Wes Kliner: I spent a lot of time with him.

Martha: So tell us about your love of Jesus. Where did that come into your life?

Wes Kliner: I first heard about Jesus when I was in first grade and my first grade teacher asked my mom and dad if I can go to church with them. I was a teacher's pet back then. I guess I still am because i've always been the guy people went to when they got a problem. I tend to be a problem solver. The bottom line is I heard about Jesus, but I never invited him into my life. I just had a good knowledge of who he is, and it wasn't until I was in high school and my best friend became my pastor's son, and I would hang out with him.

I talked to his dad quite a bit and I learned that it's not just getting the Lord and knowing who he is, it's getting him in your heart and dedicating yourself, just giving yourself completely over to him and providing service to other people. I'd had a great service model, but doing it for the Lord and glorifying the Lord and doing all of that is what became my focus. So it was in high school and I was baptized by my best friend's dad.

Martha: Oh, that's really special. Okay, so you just recently retired from your first career and really started a new career with Challenge Golf. But let's talk about your first career as a judge. How did your faith impact your work there?

Wes Kliner: There again, in my past lives, my first real long career was the law. I went to law school, = at the age of 32. I'd been a military officer. I'd also worked and built some houses in a gap year between my sophomore and junior year, or sophomore year. And when I enlisted in the Army - I speak Russian- I was a Russian linguist when I was enlisted. The Army sent me back to college. That's my background. So I had a lot of variety in my background and my wife and I both went to Memphis State, not University of Memphis back in 87.

We graduated in 90. And I worked as a lawyer for various firms and companies, wound up being general counsel for a couple of corporations and also worked helping a couple 501c3s get organized. And so about 12 and a half years ago, I became a US administrative law judge with social security. I loved that job because I was helping people who really needed to be helped. And discerning who was not really needing the help and was trying to take advantage of the system. So I felt like a good gatekeeper, but also a great servant to be able to help those people who were truly in need of help.

That's, I left that career. I had planned on working - i'm 72. I'm older than this guy. I know I look younger, but I'm older. (chuckles) About four years. I planned on working until I was 75 and my wife was all for it because financially we were doing well, but I'm getting ahead of myself. My first exposure to Challenge Golf was the Tebow event that you all were there and I was totally impressed with the ministry.

I was invited by Brandon Guy who helped with all the sound in the video. Anyway, I sing with him. I sing barbershop, too. So the bottom line is I saw the mission of Challenge Golf that this guy had envisioned, and I love it because not only do I believe in evangelism, I'm big in discipleship. It's time for men to stand up, women as well, to be leaders, to be disciples of Christ because the only way that our faith it's propagated in the next generation as if we plant those seeds of the gospel and then nurture them by getting them into the word and getting them to pray.

So that's my passion. That's what I've worked for all my life as a member of a church, as a deacon, as a Sunday school teacher, singing in choir, those sort of things. So my life has always been about commitment to the Lord in whatever I did. I'm the guy that you say, have a nice day. And I look at somebody, I'll say, have is a passive board, I'm proactive. I hope you are too, and you make it a great day. Because the Lord blesses everyone.

Martha: So were you implying then that you hurried up your retirement from your career so that you could then move into a role at Challenge Golf?

Wes Kliner: Actually I was browbeat by Ron, (laughter) And my fleece was if my wife is okay with it, then I'm okay with it. But she's, I have a fabulous wife, Pam, who just, she's my biggest fan. She's my biggest critic. She always lets me know when I'm messing up, which is frequent. So the bottom line is she said, Hey, it's where your heart is. It's always been where your heart is. We're good. Go forth. Do this, it's what the Lord is leading you to do. So that's what led me to come on board, my background, administration, leadership, those sort of things. So I'm an organizer. I'm a name taker. A rear end kicker too.

Ron Potter: And by the way, Wes and I are best of friends, and as a former federal judge, I like to kid him that his sentences are always long.

 (laughter)

Jim: Oh boy. Okay. Okay.

Wes Kliner: I was a lawyer. I get paid by the word. (laughter)

Martha: That's right. Wow. That's exactly right. Oh, that's wonderful though.

Jim: So there really will be lawyers in heaven. I always wondered about that, if there'd be lawyers in heaven.

 (laughing)

Wes Kliner: I know. At least two - my wife and I.

Jim: Nice, nice.

Martha: That's fabulous.

Jim: There you go.

Martha: You know so much like your story, Wes, where it's a reboot, sometimes we need a mid-year reboot. And this June, we want to invite everyone listening to join us in Cincinnati for the National Faith at Work Summit. June 17th through 19th with a theme of frontiers: collaboration, creativity, and continuity.

We invite participants to examine emerging opportunities and challenges at the intersection of faith, leadership, and work. I'll put the link in the show notes, but Jim and I will be MCing this event and we really hope to see you all there.

Jim: Alright, Ron, Challenge Golf enters a new era this spring, as spring arrives across the country. What can we expect from Challenge Golf this year, 2026?

Ron Potter: With Wes' Leadership, we're rolling out a new discipleship program that I'm really excited about. It's an 18 week kind of paralleling 18 holes. It's an 18 week discipleship program, and it's gonna assist golfers with their next steps in faith, both believers and unbelievers.

Jim: And how are you gonna pair the golfers up? Because discipleship is really mentoring and discipleship all at one time because we need to learn to live life along somebody who's a little further down the road in our faith. How do you do the matching up thing?

Ron Potter: When we do the invitational, we have caddies and caddies are like us. We put on a caddy uniform. We invite our unchurched golfers to come out and play in a free round of golf, which is a picture of a mulligan, being free. And then at the end of the day, we actually tell 'em about Jesus, who we compare that to God's Mulligan for mankind, the second chance we don't deserve and that we did not earn.

And so the caddy then will be given this discipleship program, and it teaches him how to go out into the community and follow up with the golfer that he led to that golf tournament. His original purpose is just to get the unchurched friend of his to the free golf tournament. It's pretty easy to do that when it's a free golf tournament.

Wes Kliner: In each chapter that we found in a new community, what we do is we look to partner up with local evangelical churches and we get their men's and women's ministries, women who and men who are golfers, to become involved as the leaders of that local chapter. And we're, we're looking for people that believe in the Apostles creed basically, Jesus Christ, triune God, and the only way to heaven is through faith in Christ and the filling of the Holy Spirit when you accept him as both savior and Lord of your life.

Church has that as a commitment. Yeah, I don't care whether you're sprinkled or dunked. We want you to come on board and partner with us, and it's those folks who will then act as the mentors. They also act as a landing point for those who are unchurched and unsaved to be able to go to and have fellowship, to have koinonia with a group of believers. So what we're looking to do is we're looking for human capital when we go to churches.

We don't need their financial support. We want people to be involved. And it's low impact. We're gonna provide a program that allows them to walk through, in a very logical fashion, the foundations of our faith. And then what it means to be a disciple. What are the attributes and what are the characteristics of a disciple? And what do you need to do to become a disciple?

And really all it is you need to be a servant that is willing to share, share who you love, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible that you use, and I prefer the English standard version. So the John MacArthur comment version, study Bible. So the bottom line is we get churches to partner up with this.

Martha: One of the things I think that has always gotten Jim and I pumped up about what you guys do at Challenge Golf is that you're taking a love that people have and you're being intentional about it.

One of the things that we see so often in life is that christians are living passively and they're going and playing golf, and then they're doing this other Bible study, or they're doing this other thing with other people. And you've married the two and you've said, let's attract the people that already love to play golf that need to hear about the mulligan of life.

And I love that analogy. I love your hearts. So tell us. With this new Bible study and with a fresh spring, and all the things that start up in the springtime, what are you looking for as far as expansion this year?

Ron Potter: That's easy. We're focused on Virginia Tennessee, of course, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina. And we have, we're gonna start chapters in each of those areas because we have contacts there. For example, Wes and I, last month we went to several cities, including Augusta and Jacksonville and Panama City and Birmingham. And in Jacksonville we met with First Baptist Church, 28,000 members.

And the missions director there got really excited about what we're doing. So suddenly there's a potential chapter to be born right there through the church, and again, as Wes says, we're not asking the church for a dime, we're just looking for their golfers to help us begin chapters and we think it'll be organic that way.

It's we'll hear about a church here or there, and they'll hear about us. And like with this podcast, we could get some responses from this podcast from an area that we did not plan to start a chapter this year. But hey, we gotta start a chapter there because they're interested and they've got a group or a church and they wanna help.

Martha: So let's talk about that real quick. I will put some links in the show notes, we'll talk about it off camera of what links to put in there to, for people to contact you because this is going to intrigue some listeners, whether they are retired and looking for that purpose with their golf, or they're still working and want to make more intentionality with the people that they surround themselves with. We've got both avenues. We want to get people activated in that way. So listeners, I will have that. Look for that in the show notes, how you can get ahold of Wes and Ron 3-Putt Potter and get some information of how you can get involved because we get pretty excited about this because it is, it is real life, and we've seen how people have been led to Jesus through it, and so we want people to know about it, which is why we have you on the show today.

Jim: I wanna just, I'm gonna step back for just a say. I wanna step back for just a say, because what I want - just describe, are you having events weekly or monthly?

Wes Kliner: Monthly in each chapter.

Jim: Okay.

Wes Kliner: And they vary. We have three different free events where both believers and unbelievers or unchurched members will partner up and they will golf for free. The Invitational is an event where we take on strictly the servant role as caddies, and it's all unbelievers.

And then we have VIP events. We have a VIP event coming up April 20th at the Old Farm in Bristol, Virginia. And our guests are gonna be Charlie Reimer. Henry Cho, the comedian Henry Cho from Knoxville. I'm sure you all have heard of him or met him in the past. That we're looking real. We're looking forward to - that's where one of the avenues we use for raising money. We're looking for committed business owners and believers who wanna see this ministry expand nationwide.

We're focused regionally because we have a staff now, not just Ron and I, but there are six other gentlemen who are working with us. We have a staff of eight now who are committed full time to seeing chapter expansion, outreach to churches to get em to partner up, fundraisers to go to businesses and seek their support, who want to see the spread of the gospel in a very fertile mission field.

Of all the athletic venues I've ever been on, I have not seen one other than golf that where the Lord's name was mentioned more often than on a golf field. (laughter) unfortunately most of the time, not in a reverent manner. So believe me, it is a fertile mission.

Jim: Amen. Absolutely. I love that. Check 'em out online: challengegolf.org. Challenge Golf org. Ron, as we close out today's show, how many golfers have come to know Jesus because of Challenge Golf in the last several years?

Ron Potter: We've had 261 written decisions for Christ in our last 18 invitationals, and that is phenomenal. We're averaging over 30% written decisions when we do our outreach event. So let's celebrate that together, and thank you guys so much for having us on today.

Wes Kliner: Thank you.

Jim: Yeah, you bet. Challenge Golf. Org. I'm not much of a golfer anymore. My dad kinda wore that out on me, but boy, when you hang out with these guys, golfing is fun. And it's an adventure and now it's your mission. Check it out online. Challenge Golf. Org.

You've been listening to iWork4Him and an iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and apparently our golf course can be a mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.