iRetire4Him 167: Building a Movement of Purpose-Driven Retirees

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days. Welcome to iRetire4Him. I'm your host, Jim Brangenberg. Please check us out online, iRetire4Him.com. That's iRetire, the number 4, Him.com.

Something has stirred up our guest today. He's on fire for helping retirees find meaning and purpose and kingdom impact in their retirement years. Barak Strickland has soft launched the Refire Nation in 2026 out of Cincinnati, Ohio, and Barak is passionate about helping retirees see the future that God has placed before them, and it doesn't involve full-time golf, tennis, pickleball, or sea shelling.

Barak Strickland is a man on a mission, and he's back on the show to tell us what God's been doing in his life the last several years. Barak Strickland, welcome back to iRetire4Him.

Barak Strickland: Thank you, Jim. It's great to be back with you.

Jim Brangenberg: All right, so you were on the show about four years ago. What's the most amazing thing you've learned about God in these last four years?

Barak Strickland: So God is faithful, and He allows transitions to teach. Four years ago, when I talked to you last, I was a year into retirement from a 40-year career with the Air Force. I was trying to figure out what was next. I think at that time I was driving disaster relief supplies. But in 2024, my wife Victoria and I sold our home, all our possessions.

She closed her PT practice, and our plan was to live a nomadic lifestyle so we could be near our son, daughter-in-law, and our new grandchild in Texas. A month after we got there in December of 2024, my son got orders. That happens in the military. And so we weren't gonna move to Southern California with them, and so we came back to Ohio.

But that's a neat thing because we're at a different church now. We're doing new things, and we wouldn't be doing that had we not had that transition.

Jim Brangenberg: So God used that transition to do something way beyond what you could have asked or imagined.

Barak Strickland: Absolutely.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, imagine that, huh? He says He would do that kind of stuff. All right, so God is moving you in a solid new direction. As He moved you back to Ohio, He's laid something on your heart. Tell us what He's laid on your heart.

Barak Strickland: So when I got back here to Ohio, the first Sunday we were here, we went to Fairhaven Church, and my fleece was that if I met Pastor Paul Clark that day, that was God's confirmation we should be there.

And so we knew Pastor Paul and his wife Kay from 30 years ago in another church. And so we come out of the 10:30 service, and there's Paul Clark coming down the hall, and so we reconnected. And so I met with their small group leadership there and started talking about what was going on, and I said, "I really have a heart for retirees. Is there anything going on here with retirees?" And the answer was, "You need to meet Pastor Kirk Lothander. He's doing small group studies on repurpose in retirement."

And so I took the fourth cohort from him that he did, and then I co-led the fifth cohort with him. And then that grew into a new 12-week Flourish study at Fairhaven, where we combine Fuller Seminary's Flourishing in the Third course with the Repurpose Promise course. And so again, 12 weeks in all. And so again, this wouldn't have happened if we had stayed here. We wouldn't be going to Fairhaven. And so a new church, new opportunity, and God just led me step by step.

Jim Brangenberg: So I wanna hear about those. So first you had these Flourish groups. All right, but then you combined what you were doing there with what Fuller's was working on, which I didn't even know about their Third groups till you mentioned it. I love Fuller Seminary. I love... they've got some phenomenal things are going on there.

Talk to me about these Flourish group. What was your purpose behind these Flourish groups?

Barak Strickland: So it's really the meshing of those two six weeks. Flourishing in the Third from Fuller really sets the scriptural and scientific rationale for why we should flourish. And so it's based on Psalm 92 "Shall flourish in their old age and bear fruit." And so that's a great precursor to the Repurpose Promise, which is how to do this, and you end up with a plan in how you're gonna relate to God, relate to other people, serve people. And so it's a great one-page plan for your retirement. So those two together make a great experience for people.

Jim Brangenberg: All right, so that's fantastic. Great. We've talked about it. Now I wanna hear what did you hear from the people that went. When you started taking, 'cause you've had this on your heart as we talked, like I said, four years ago. You knew that there was a desperate desire for meaning and purpose.

You run into all kinds of retirees just like I have that are struggling. They're like, "Okay, I'm tired of looking for seashells. I'm tired of playing pickleball." Although some people really get addicted to that, by the way. But I'm just tired- ... I'm tired of not having meaning and purpose. What did you see as the outcome of these groups that you did at your church, at Fairhaven Church?

Barak Strickland: So I've always said the goal is not numbers, right? It's so easy to default to numbers. Oh, we had 30, we had 50, we had 100.

Jim Brangenberg: No, I didn't ask you about numbers. I didn't ask - I wanna know about outcomes.

Barak Strickland: That's what I'm saying. I'm saying I'm after life change.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay.

Barak Strickland: And so we have testimonials out of this. One of the guys for Flourish emailed me very early on and said, "If I can help in any way, let me know." And so I asked him to help clean up every night after this. He wrote me a wonderful testimony that he and his wife heard about this. It's been a blessing to them. They've connected with other people.

They know what they're gonna do in their retirement now. And so it's taking them from wondering what they were gonna do, to all the possibilities for kingdom impact that they now have in front of them. And they're one of our most active couples. They're gonna host a supper circle for us in June, and just have really dived in.

Another testimonial, a guy said he's been struggling with saying yes too much to people. And so he did an inward look through the Flourish experience, and he said, "I realize what is truly important to me," so he can start saying no to lower priority things. And so that was his experience out of Flourish.

And then another lady she said, "My life was already full of meaning," right? But Flourish provided essential clarity on what she wants to do in addition to that, and she's changed a little bit of direction. And so she really recommends this experience, even for people that already have some meaning and purpose, but really let God speak to them and maybe change what they're doing a little bit.

So those are three examples that I have in writing from the Flourish experience.

Jim Brangenberg: Will you, how would you describe the general feeling, the general attitude? No, that's not the right word I'm looking for. You get a room full of people, you're starting to take them through this. When they started the process, describe their emotions, describe their feelings as they started the process.

Barak Strickland: So I think there was a lot of tentative, "What is this?" We had done the promotion and so people might be a little wary of, "What is it really? What am I getting into?" Some of them we heard stories that their wives made them come- ... because they didn't know what to do. And it, I think it ran the gamut from really curiosity and what is this really to boy, I really need this, or my wife really says I need this. And so I think those were the emotions that were most prevalent.

Jim Brangenberg: Did you sense that they were frustrated before they got started, that they were frustrated because they just didn't know what God's plan was for them in their retirement years?

Barak Strickland: Some of them, yes. I think that some of them didn't even understand, and that's the beauty of the Flourishing in the Third, is that there's a biblical basis for this, that we should flourish. And so some people came into the room not even understanding that they are to flourish, and so that was the reason for that initial few weeks of study, because, God does want us to flourish. God does want us to bear fruit in our old age.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, Jesus said he came to restore that which was lost, and, or those who were lost. It's actually both. And you have to ask that question what was lost? Who lost it? Where was it lost?" And that's all back to the garden. In the garden, they lost perfect physical flourishing, mental flourishing, and spiritual flourishing. Jesus came to restore all of that, and yet we keep telling people who are retiring to go ahead and sit on the couch or go play golf and live a life full of meaningless existence instead of, "Holy smokes, now you got all this experience. Why don't you start investing that in the next generations?"

When people finish the classes, the Flourishing in the Third, describe their feelings and emotions then.

Barak Strickland: So we had an evening of celebration at the end where we ran out of time on testimonials, but we had several people come up and just talk about the experience and what it meant to them.

We had invited the spouses and we also had ... I think this is even more important because what I was missing was what to do with who I am. So I knew who I was four years ago, but I didn't know where to plug in, and so this is what it's given me as a place to serve. And so we had next steps. We had a two-page handout for them, and they could fill out if they wanted to do one-on-one, if they wanted to serve in certain ways, if they wanted to co-facilitate a study in the future, if they wanted to mentor.

So two pages, and so we've, we got most of the attendees filled that out, and we're doing the follow-up on that. So I know your question was about feeling and testimony. I think it's the next step that's so important where people get plugged in. And again, that was what was missing for me, and that's what we're trying to provide people in Refire Nation.

Jim Brangenberg: So just get plugged in the local church or get plugged in the local community?

Barak Strickland: No, this is, this has gone beyond the church for me already. And we're saying either within the church, there is a pathway for that, or in the community.

Jim Brangenberg: Beautiful. We're gonna talk a lot more about Refire Nation here in just a second, but I wanna just introduce everybody to the iRetire4Him Summer Initiative.

I've never done this before. I don't know if I'll ever do it again, but I'm really passionate about this. I have found, working with retirees across the country, that most of us have forgotten how to be good neighbors, and most of us have not had our neighbors over for dinner. I have a lot of people say to me "I wanna try and figure out how to get my neighbors to come to church."

And I always say, "Why don't you just invite them over for dinner first?" On a national basis, we're challenging everybody listening to this podcast to invite, host a neighborhood picnic this summer. It's selfish. Go ahead, do it, because it's the best food in America will come to your table. You provide something. You provide the meat, or you provide the drinks or whatever it may be, and invite people to bring their favorite side dishes or salads or desserts. And invite your neighbors onto your land, onto your property. Your rain option would be host it inside or put it in your garage or something like that, but get your neighbors on your property, enjoy some time with your neighbors, love on your neighbors, and make sure they know that you love on them, and take a picture.

And send that picture to jim@iwork4him.com, and you're gonna get entered into a contest worth $100 gifts. $100 worth of gifts will be sent at the end of the year. I've already gotten one entry. Know anything about that entry? I already know about one entry, and it inspired me to make this a national contest.

And it really is, because having a summer initiative and having a summer picnic is the greatest thing you can ever do for your neighbor. Get to know your neighbors. Summer picnic by iRetire4Him. If you need more ideas, just reach out to me, jim@iwork4him.com, Jim at I WORK, the number 4, HIM.com. All right.

So Barak, I wanna know more. You've taken all this. You've taken the flourishing, the third, and you've now branded it Refire Nation. Tell me about the establishment of Refire Nation. How many people do you have involved in getting that all accomplished?

Barak Strickland: So we had, my wife Victoria and I had thought about this for several months, and we were just observing the need. This is a huge need in our country right now. And so we said, "Hey, let's just draw a line, pick a date, and do something." And so we soft launched Refire Nation on 1 April, no fooling, and so we had a group of 16 potential co-creators. So these were local people that we knew and virtual people. Some of them I had met through the Third Round Table in Omaha in March.

And so we just gathered, and I shared the vision, I gave a time for Q&A, and then we just prayed together about this. And so I had three questions for those people. I said, "Do you wanna be a part of this? If you do, how can you contribute? And if you do, what does this have to do or result in for this not to just be another thing on your calendar?"

And so we had a dozen of those people come back to us-

Jim Brangenberg: Wow ...

Barak Strickland: saying, yes, they wanna be a part of this, and so they're our co-creators. Some of them are very active in planning and executing, like I mentioned the couple that's hosting our supper circle in June. And then some are advisors people like Steve Harvey out of Kansas City and other people that are just advising us because they've been on a similar path with nonprofits before. And so that's how this thing started just almost two months ago now.

Jim Brangenberg: All right, so that's a lot of people just at initial launch, and I love the fact that you're interacting with people all across the country at the beginning. So what is the vision for Refire Nation?

Barak Strickland: So our vision is simple, but it's not easy. So we wanna change the narrative from retirement to refirement. What does that mean? Here's what God gave me when I went through the Repurpose Promise. I meet with Him every morning, and one morning he said, "Barak, what is the difference between the word retirement and the word refirement?" And I said, "One letter, the letter T or the letter F."

T stands for temporary, so that would be retirement is temporary. F stands for forevermore, that's eternal. And so we're trying to change the narrative for people to move from retirement, which is temporary, to refirement, which is eternal, for kingdom impact.

Jim Brangenberg: I love that. That's pretty good. You can tell that's from God, 'cause that's pretty cool.

All right, retirement is temporary, and refirement is final. It's forever. It's f- it, it's fun and foolhardy, and all kinds of great F words that you could put with it. It's full of meaning and purpose. All right, so you've launched this. It is soft launch on April 1st. No fooling, I like the way you put that in there.

By the way, I had a grandson on April 1st, so it's not a fooling day. All right, so you're gonna start a virtual study, you're gonna start doing this w- I don't know what you're gonna call it. Are you gonna call it Still Flourishing in the Third ? Or what are you gonna call your new virtual study?

Barak Strickland: So we actually kicked it off April 8th. It was Refire in Acts, and it was focused on building up to Pentecost, which is may 24th this year. And so we actually just finished that today, this morning, with three couples, and we just looked at Acts 1 and 2, specifically looking at Pentecost, the new community, which is called the early church, and so it fit perfectly with what we're experiencing in our own lives in this new ministry right now. We're forming a new community, and so we wanna base that on biblical principles, and so that's that's the first thing we did with Refire Nation.

Jim Brangenberg: All right, but the purpose, I'm always looking for keywords. What were you telling them about retirement in that study? You're studying the first chapter of A- or the second, first and second chapters of Acts. I've read those many times. You don't hear a lot about old people in there. You do hear about experienced people in there. But talk to me what'd you learn?

Barak Strickland: So this is more for helping my author friend to, to encourage him in the establishment of the new community, being Refire Nation. So that's kinda the, how it fits together. It wasn't specifically for retirement. It was just to encourage him to do a book study, to launch the nation, to launch the new community. And so we really focused in on those things that the men in the men's study that I do, the teaching, the fellowship, the breaking of bread, the prayer. It's what are those foundational things that help this new biblical community form? And so that's the basis of Refire Nation - the community, the fellowship that we're building.

Jim Brangenberg: And so what's next? What is the next thing for Refire Nation?

Barak Strickland: So a couple things. We're gonna build this out over the summer, and then in September I've said we're already outside of the church. We have this 12-week flourish experience in two different courses at the University of Dayton starting September 1st. And then also I've been privileged to be asked to speak at the National Presbyterian Older Adult Ministry Network National Convention down in Knoxville, Tennessee in September also.

And God has led me person by person, step by step, opportunity by opportunity. So those are just a couple of the bigger things that we have this fall.

Jim Brangenberg: So people listening in, they're like, "I wanna know more. I wanna get ahold of Barak. I wanna find out how do I do what he's doing in my city. I wanna know." So we're encouraging everybody, go out to refirenation.com, or in case you can't type .com, you could do refirenation.org. Or if you really are bored, you could do retire- ... refirenation.net I think you said, right? So you got it all. You got it covered. When they get connected with you, what are you looking, what kind of people do you want to connect with you right now?

Barak Strickland: We want people that are interested in connection, in learning, and serving. And so those are the three things we're focused on, and so we wanna build this community to connect peers. We want to build learning opportunities such as the Flourish experience and other things we have in mind, and then also to get people plugged in to the serving opportunities as we already talked about in their church or in their community. And we believe those are the core pillars of what needs to happen.

Jim Brangenberg: Why is it so critical for retirees to find meaning and purpose in their days?

Barak Strickland: So I think as you point out almost every podcast, our cultural view here in the US of retirement is broken. And so we pick on golf, we pick on sitting on the beach, we pick on pickleball. And that stuff is fine, but I don't think that provides the sense of meaning and purpose. And I'm talking to the choir here. We aren't wired for perpetual leisure. We're wired for purpose. And so when retirees take their pension or get their gold watch or whatever and walk out the door, they often face the identity crisis, the isolation, the loss of meaning.

And so what we're saying is the refirement movement is important because it gives retirees permission and a roadmap to say, "My best years of contribution aren't behind me, they're now and ahead of me."

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah.

Barak Strickland: And Jim, as you always say, if you have a pulse, you have a purpose.

Jim Brangenberg: And if you're not dead, you're not done. That one gets people's attention a little bit more. So really, when you look at... you probably know a bunch of people older than you and I, people that are in their 70s or in their 80s. When you see those people, those, as I like to call them, chronologically superior folks, investing their lives into others, it really impacts the kingdom, doesn't it?

When you see them investing in their communities and in other families, it really starts to change things, doesn't it?

Barak Strickland: Yes. Yes, and the people that are doing that are some of the most vibrant people that I know, and that's... people ask me, "Is this a Christian organization?" And I said, it's based on Biblical principles, but we wanna be so attractive that the world and those retirees that aren't believers say, 'Wow, what do they have?'" And I want to be that, that fire on a hill, if you will, that people are drawn to.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. I agree. And I tell you, I, I lived in purgatory for 20 years in Florida in two different homeowners associations. That's why I call it purgatory on Earth. If you wanna see what I mean, get a copy of I Retire4Him the book.

But what I saw was so many people in those retirement communities so miserable 'cause they didn't have anything. Everything that had meant something to them, they gave up so they could go live in Florida in a purgatory kind of association where somebody's gonna rule their lives and tell them how they could cut their lawn, shovel their driveway.

They didn't have to do a lot of that in Florida. But I just I just saw so much unhappiness. And I think that what you're doing, Barak, with the Refire Nation is going to bring joy to people. I'm sure you're already seeing it. In those initial couples, did every, did you see a joy factor increase?

Barak Strickland: Absolutely, and they have purpose now. They're connecting with other people that are like-minded, and it doesn't get any better than that.

Jim Brangenberg: No. You're a retired military guy. I imagine you know a lot of other retired military guys. There's military guys who have served and served and served and served and served and served, and they retire having served, how many years did you serve in, you said Air Force? I can't remember if it was Air Force or-

Barak Strickland: Yeah. Total active duty and civil service was 40 years.

Jim Brangenberg: 40 years. And then those people go and retire and they have a great pension, great benefits. But how many of them are floundering because everything that meant something to them is now gone? How, what's your conversations like with them?

Barak Strickland: It's interesting because what's happening is those kind of people have skills, and so there are a lot of non-profits in our area that need those project management or those financial management or those kind of skills. And so we're seeing some of those connections being made where there's a need and then a perfect opportunity for the skills and talents of somebody to come in and help meet those needs. That's what it's all about.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. That's fantastic. All right, if you wanna get ahold of Barak, check him out online, refirenation.com. Refirenation.com. Barak, what do you think God has in store for you next?

Barak Strickland: I think that we're just gonna build this thing out. He's led me step by step, person by person, opportunity by opportunity so far, and I expect Him to continue to do that. This is His ministry, and so I just wanna follow His leading and develop this out as He leads.

Jim Brangenberg: I appreciate that, Barak. Thanks so much for being with us today on iRetire4Him. And before we go from iRetire4Him today, I wanna encourage everybody to check out Patriot Mobile, patriotmobile.com/iwork4him.

Right now, you're makin' a payment for a cellphone. Everybody listening to this show is doing that. What does your cellphone company do with their profits? Most major cellphone companies are supporting things that we are all against with their profits. They're supporting things that are against the family, against children, so many other things, pro-pornography.

Patriot Mobile is a company based on faith, family, and freedom with US-based customer service, and they use the same towers as everybody else. Martha and I have been using Patriot Mobile for a couple years. We never noticed a difference. I encourage you, go check out Patriot Mobile now, patriotmobile.com/iwork4him.

If you sign up for them, they'll bless us, but it'll also be a blessing to you and so many others because your money will now be going to invest in things that are kingdom-minded instead of things that fight the kingdom all day long. You've been listening to iRetire4Him. We all know that we need meaning and purpose in our lives, and it's all so that we can get to the end of the road and say, "You know what? I retire 4 Him."

iRetire4Him 166: When God Aligns a Couple for Their Next Assignment

Jim: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days.

Martha: Welcome to iRetire4Him. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Check us out online at iRetire4Him.com.

Jim: You know when life brings you lemons, you make lemonade. When adversity comes upon you, you grasp tighter onto the Lord. When you get adversity and lemons, what do you do then? Peter Lawry is a coach, a business leader, a prophetic intercessor, a husband, a father, and a grandfather.

But three years ago, the Lord said to him, Peter, you're never gonna get another regular paycheck again." So Peter is retired, but hardly quitting, just getting started working with business leaders from around the world, helping them to hear the voice of God with regard to their business and lives.

Enter Tini Lawry, best friend to Peter, wife, mother, grandmother, and world-renowned leader within the Lions Club International - retired, but hardly quitting, just getting started mentoring 15 to 30 year olds. All right, so when you're retirement age, but just getting started, what does that look like? And how do their two stories mesh together for the kingdom?

Let's see. Oh, and did I mention Peter and Tini are from just outside Christchurch, New Zealand? They're here today with us in studio in Marionville, Missouri. Let's hear from them how this story is developing. Peter and Tini, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Peter Lawry: Nice of you. Thanks, Jim.

Martha: Tini liked that you said she's world-renowned. (laughter)

Tini Lawry: I have been overseas, so yes ...

Jim: I typed in your name and typed in Lions Club, and I got paragraphs and paragraphs about you. So you are world-renowned because I live on the other side of the globe from you and I found you just like that, so that makes you- And now she, now you're known ... world-renowned.

Martha: That's right.

Jim: All right, so you both have storied careers and storied lives, having lived in many cultures. Does the New Zealand culture embrace retirement like we do here in the States, Tini?

Tini Lawry: No. No not really. W- we're an immigrant country, so lots of people have immigrated there over the centuries, but so their retirement usually gets you can see they have longer holidays or vacations, and it's usually family-orientated. So they would go and see their children, grandchildren, or even elderly parents still.

And they might be overseas. Quite often they are overseas. Could be in Australia, but also in Europe or where they are. So I think the retired people really have now the time to make a longer vacation to do it. And I would say it is always family-orientated.

Jim: But Peter, you're British, y- but lived in the UK, lived in Singapore, lived in-

Peter Lawry: Not Singapore, Hong Kong.

Jim: Hong Kong. Hong kong. I get that every time. I get it in my head. Hong Kong, the other British electorate. Okay. And also in parts of Africa, also British, English-speaking Africa. But the UKers, they retire. But you're in New Zealand. Yes. How does that culture mesh with your thinking on retirement?

You're not 59 anymore. You're in your 60s. Do you get to retire?

Peter Lawry: I don't think I do get to retire. I don't, I, I don't think that retirement is actually part of God's plan, to be honest... not in the sense of, "Oh, now I can just stop, sit on the sofa and be a couch potato." I, I don't think that is God's idea of retirement- at all. I think that He switches our focus, and particularly gives us the opportunity to pass the baton on to the next generation or to generations to come. And I find that incredibly exciting. And along that journey, you also get the opportunity to do a lot of things you really enjoy doing. Whether you're being paid for it or not doesn't really matter.

Jim: So you say couch potatoes. So they have couch potatoes in New Zealand, too? (laughter)

Peter Lawry: Yeah, they do. Sadly. They do.

Jim: Really? Okay, so but I imagine it's a different flavor. Like here, that would be- Yeah ... nacho cheese, you know- Yeah. ... chips. Yeah. What is the, what's the flavor in... Is that kiwi flavor then? Is that what that is? Oh, that's an inside joke.

Peter Lawry: Not al- not allowed to eat kiwi. Kiwi is our national bird and highly protected. Oh. See, in America, that's a fruit, and we eat all kinds of kiwi. Okay.

Martha: But not kiwi chips. Okay, we've had a lot of fun, though, with this comparison between New Zealand and America- We have, and the different cultures that you guys have grown up in. So would you say, though, before we move on from this, that your perspective on retirement is a widely accepted understanding of retirement, at least beyond, among believers in New Zealand? Or is it just a catching on thing?

Peter Lawry: No. It's inherent in our culture.

Martha: Okay.

Peter Lawry: I think as Tini said, some of us are first generation there, so we are both. So consequently family becomes incredibly important in that because we didn't have family- ... for a lot of our upbringing. So I think New Zealanders do tend to stick where they have been for work because that's often where their kids are.

If their kids have moved, they will often move to meet the kids. If there's nobody local that they can go to, as Tini said, they'll often even travel back home to be with family and to be with those who are important for them.

Tini Lawry: Yeah. And I think you have far more time. Yeah. You're not 40 hours a week at work what keeps you at, in certain places. You, so you got the time to, to help out your children with things, Yeah, babysitting is only one of them, but but also helping with their gardens or other things. And yeah. So it, it's more it's the brilliance of having this time to do it.

Martha: For sure. Okay, so right now, what does God have each of you doing? Peter, why don't we start with you?

Peter Lawry: I have a number of different things that I'm doing. I work with business owners still on a pro bono basis usually to bring a prophetic consultancy into the business arena. So what we're looking there is to allow the voice of God to speak into the business, both to provide strategy, but also to unlock things that are happening in the business, sometimes to bring out of the darkness into the light, sometimes to provide new direction.

So that's one element of what I do. But essentially, that's really just bringing the Kingdom of God into business. So if you bring the Kingdom of God into business, you can do it elsewhere, and that's what I discovered, too. So I am the prayer ministry coordinator in our church. I run a prophetic discipleship group.

I've run a breakfast group for business people in the town in the past. It's not running anymore. But I do quite a lot, we both do quite a lot with our families, and actually, one of our daughters has just moved into the town where we are, which bucks the trend of parents having to move towards them.

So that's really nice. So we've now got two of our children living in the same town. Oh. Which gives us six of our eight grandchildren right on our doorstep, and that's lovely.

Martha: That's great. And Tini, what about you? What does God have you doing?

Tini Lawry: I think it's mainly relationships with people. Because I'm retired I can do hiking, and I'm in, in biking groups. Of course, church friends. Apart from the church friends, most of the other groups I'm in and in the Lions and the Leos, then the Lions International. So I'm in contact with lots and lots of people on a reasonably intimate way because you're hiking for hours and you're biking for hours, so you got times of talking. So I've got always the feeling, and most of them are non-Christians.

Jim: We like to call them pre-believers on iWork4Him.

Tini Lawry: Yeah, pre-believers.

Jim: And- Because it says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord.

Tini Lawry: Yes. And I'm trying to, I'm trying to convince them of that. (laughter) It's only a matter of time. That's right. But yeah, so I feel that God has placed me in those groups.

Jim: You're influencer. You're an influencer. You're just not a social media influencer, you're an influencer in person. You're real life influencer. Face-to-face. Wow.

Tini Lawry: Face-to-face. Yes.

Jim: All right. So when you guys left New Zealand, you guys had this bifurcated path. You guys, Peter doing his thing, Tini's doing her thing, but I sensed that this trip... And then we've been together if you're not watching the video on YouTube or on Rumble, we're together in studio.

These guys are not calling in on Zoom via, from New Zealand. We're together. We've spent the last three weeks together. We're in the same time zone. Same time zone. Same oxygen. Otherwise, 19 time zones, it's very hard to coordinate, by the way, doing a podcast. I sensed coming here was gonna be a, an opening to you guys starting to do things more together.

And I've seen it. I've witnessed it. When we were at the US Christian Chamber event in Orlando, Peter was the headliner. He was one of the keynote speakers. He closed out the entire conference. But when I saw you guys work in the room, I saw Peter do his thing, and I'd see Tini come behind him and go "And Peter, I also heard this, and what about this?"

And you started talking into people. Tini has as much of - her prophetic gift looks different than Peter's, but she speaks truth into people, but she listens really ... she'll sit there and be quiet. She doesn't wanna say anything. Peter really probably d- neither of them are fighting for the stage.

But you guys were doing this apart, but I saw God really orchestrate a togetherness in this mission in Orlando and the last three weeks we've spent together. What are you hearing from God, Tini, about maybe when you head back in a few days?

Tini Lawry: Yes, because I definitely came with this idea of I was the support crew or tagging along with Peter.

Jim: Yeah, I noticed Peter was carrying, you were carrying Peter's bag a lot.

 (laughter)

Tini Lawry: Yeah, I know. Getting cups of tea. Yes very much the support and yeah, picking up what, what's coming out, Because other people have actually spoken into me that they said Tini, you actually, you're part of this."

And seeing that from a fresh perspective, because these people didn't know us from, about us. So that's that actually worked into me, and I think, yeah, all the preparations, what God has done, I can also see it, it might come together somehow. And that I'm actually not just yeah, tagging along, but that I'm integral part of what is, what God is doing.

Jim: Yeah. So we like to say you're n- you're no longer Peter, just Peter's arm candy. You are part of the ... You're really a team. You guys are in, doing a waltz together in the kingdom. Yeah.

Martha: I just wanna speak to the retired people listening right now, because one of the things that I hear you guys saying is the fact that God has given you years of getting to know each other.

And so we often can anticipate, or if we're in the room with our spouse and we can tell what our spouse is hearing- ... and what they're responding to, but then you might also catch that they missed something. And who better than a spouse to be able to say, "Oh, I heard something you may not have heard, and I want you to know about it."

God gives us an amazing perspective when we have years of relationship with each other. And so in retirement, I encourage everyone that's listening to really think about that and how you complement, if you still have your spouse, tho- those years of experience you have together that God can use in an amazing way, because you know each other better than anyone else.

Tini Lawry: Yeah. Sure.

Jim: Yeah. Peter, what about you? Has your perspective changed on this at all?

Peter Lawry: Yeah, it has, I think. We didn't really choose to be on two parallel pathways. At one stage we did quite a lot together, but God then appears to have engineered different areas and different openings for us, and it's been a real thrill for me to see Tini move into leadership roles within the Lions Club.

And we're both Lions members, but I've kept in the background of that one, and she's been the one who's really found her feet there. And I, coming together here has been an opportunity for us to bring the things we have learnt in the last few years, and put them together. And yes, whilst I might be the person on a platform every now and again speaking as you mentioned, Jim I never really seek the platform. I'm not interested in the platform, not interested in status. What I want to do is lift Jesus up. And that has r- I think we've really found a way of doing that together this time.

'Cause I watched Tini work in the crowd as well, so as, we were praying for the sick at one stage at a business conference and that was terribly exciting to see God do some remarkable healings in that context. But you and Martha and Tini were all working around with the crowd, actually, mopping up bits and pieces that I had missed.

And it's been really lovely for us to do that together, and I'm looking forward to finding out how do we take this forward from here, 'cause it seems that God is now answering a prophetic word that we received 18 months ago, that he would give us something to do together again. And I think that's something I'm really excited about and really looking forward to.

Jim: I keep hearing, and you guys might wanna check out the iWork4Him podcast we did with Tini and Peter. Check out iWork4Him at iwork4him.com, the latest podcast with them. But I keep hearing the New Zealand Christian Chamber of Commerce. I don't know, I'm just throwing it out there. (chuckles)Martha?

Martha: That's so great. Okay. I know that probably everybody listening has a cellphone, and I just wanna ask you a question. Is your cellphone company supporting your desires to honor and glorify God with your life? Let us introduce you to Patriot Mobile. Faith, family, freedom is all that they are about, and they have US customer service. Patriot-

Jim: What? In this country?

Martha: In this country.

Jim: Oh, my word, you've gotta be kidding me.

Martha: It's actually pretty cool because it's students at a Christian university that get employed to be the customer service. So very ambitious, young people that know technology and speak your dialect and all of that to help you out with-

Jim: they're from Texas, so they speak your dialect.

Martha: Much sweeter.

Jim: That's right. All right.

Martha: So patriotmobile.com/iWork4Him. You can save money, save your country, protect your faith, all of that on that website.

Jim: Yeah, Patriot- Sign up today ... yeah, patriotmobile.com/iWork4Him. Support iWork4Him, at the same time you are protecting your country and getting great mobile service. We've had Patriot Mobile now for two years. It's been flawless. Patriotmobile.com/iWork4Him.

Martha: All right, Tini, so you are busy pouring your life into your kids, your grandkids, and other people's kids through the Lions Club and Leo. You're discipling them with the context of the Lions Club International. So how is the Lions Club a kingdom initiative? How do you see that?

Tini Lawry: It's, in, in a way it's quite restrictive because within the Lions Club and then with the Leo Club is functioning in an, a state high school-

Jim: Leos are the younger kids.

Tini Lawry: Yes. Yeah. That are the ones the ones that are doing sort of 13 to 18 there. You're not allowed to preach the gospel. So the only way you can actually show that you are a Christian is actually living out the characteristics of Jesus. That's, h- how you are and stuff like that.

And also the principles, I think what you do within the Lions Club I, I was for two years the president there and you have problems. So it is problem-solving, things I actually did according to the Biblical principles of how to do that. And that works tremendous because, you know yourself that, but dealing with if there's a problem you go to the person themselves instead of gossiping about it and try to get support somewhere else. So that's a great principle which you can actually put in a function like Lions.

Martha: Which we should in everything we do, right?

Tini Lawry: I know we should. I know we should, but-

Martha: It's good practice ... yeah.

Jim: But you're also a grandmother to 88 grandchildren or something like that. Eight, like eight or nine- whatever it is, going on 10. Eight, eight. Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah. Leave it to eight. Yeah. But I think, let me ask this question. Is being a grandmother a kingdom initiative?

Tini Lawry: Oh, definitely, and I won't have the distri- restrictions of not being able to preach the gospel. Which I don't, I actually don't preach. I've feel that there is relationships with them- ... is the most important thing. So it is that they have, they can trust me. I'm transparent. I believe in them. I'm not judgmental. And I've got a great relationship with them. Yeah. I spent time with them in, in, in their whatever they're doing.

And that has resulted in a great relationship that they tell me things they probably won't tell their parents. And, and that's, that is lovely.

Jim: Unless they listen to this podcast. (laughter)

Tini Lawry: Yeah. Sorry. Now they're gonna know.

But yeah, so I can pray with them on the on, on the spot when there is something going on. I can show what the Holy Spirit does in me. So they see that and they got lovely ways of, of- talking to me about that or what their experiences are, especially the older ones who are now 14 and nearly 16. So that is the times that they have questions.

Martha: Yeah. And you've already developed that relationship with them so they know that you are a go-to person. And that's such a beautiful thing. So have you always lived with that kind of kingdom intentionality?

Tini Lawry: No, not at all. I was brought up in, in church, just what had the, see, now I'm looking for a word. What's the word, Peter? I'm not sure. Just describe it. I'll help you out. Pe- oh, okay. So they were ordained. Okay. To do anything in church or, or- ... to do anything, the, you had to have people who were ordained were the only ones- who could actually do things in the kingdom. So you had to, for teaching, prophesying, even evangelizing those kind of things were all, you had to be ordained, or before you had the authority to actually do that. So 10 years ago, I learned that we all have the authority, all believers can have the authority through Christ to bless to heal, to prophesy, to teach to do all these things, and that gave me such freedom. And that changed my, my way of looking, my way of praying, my way of interacting- ... with people that yeah, that I could do that.

Jim: So important. Everybody listening, hear what Tini just said because that that you gotta be ordained, that's out of the Book of Second Hesitations. (laughter)

That's, it's not in there, people. It's not there. That many of you have been given a pastoral gift. Many of you have been given a ministry gift. Many of you have been given a teaching gift. Those are gifts that are given to you by the Spirit, Holy Spirit of God, to be used right where you're at, to live with meaning and purpose in your retirement years, to get back in the action.

Get out of the- to get out of the grandstands of life and get back in the playing field. Maybe you're not running the plays anymore, but maybe you're being a coach. But it's so important that you recognize that God's given you those gifts, men and women, teaching gifts, preaching gifts, ministering gifts, pastoring gifts- peter, help me out the rest of them. I'm, I'm- ... the five-fold gift.

Peter Lawry: Apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher.

Jim: Yeah. Yeah. That's for both men and women. And recognize that God has given you that, and you've got the freedom and the time to use those gifts all day long in your retirement years.

Peter, God told you three years ago, I mentioned this in the opening, God told you three years ago that don't really expect a regular paycheck anymore. That's not gonna happen. Basically, you were being sidelined- But you were put on free agent status with no salary cap.

Peter Lawry: I like the way you said that. There is a way to say it. That's really nice. Yeah, I really like that.

Jim: Did that freak you out?

Peter Lawry: No, not... not with you saying that. No, that didn't freak me out at all. It took me by surprise. I've f- it's six years since I earned a regular income or salary. And the first three years were really just me following a journey with God, which felt a little bit like Abraham. I felt like God has said, "Peter, come on this journey." And, w- whenever I said where are we going, Lord?" It was the impression I got back was, "You just don't need to know. Follow me." "This is a journey of faith. Will you just take one step at a time and I'll lead you."

So for three years that had been going on, and I kept saying, "Lord, this doesn't look like a business anymore. What have I got my hands on?" "What have you given me?" And He said to me, "Where do you see the fruitfulness in your life?" And at that moment I began to realize that the mentoring that I was doing with some young teenagers, the preaching I was doing in certain environments, the groups that I was running, the people that I speak to on a regular basis in a coffee shop, the there was just so many things I was doing. I thought, "Oh, my goodness, God is actually, He's put me into full-time ministry." And I hadn't really realized that until that point, but it was.

Jim: So hang on, because we're gonna capture that. Okay. You were in full-time ministry before that point in time. You just didn't realize it, because as a business guy, ... you were full-time ministry. All the different things, but all of a sudden the light bulb went off and "Hey, I'm actually in ministry."

Because people need to realize full-time ministry does not mean you work in a church... or in some... It can. And it doesn't mean you're overseas in missions. Full-time ministry means you're dedicated to letting God use all 24 hours a day of your life. Then you're a full-time ministry. That, that's the critical thing.

Martha: And you may not get a paycheck for it. (laughing)

Peter Lawry: And you may not get a paycheck for it. I know. No.

Jim: Tini, when Peter got that voice from God that said, "Hey, you're not gonna get a regular paycheck," did that freak you out?

You're Dutch. Come on. Just be honest. (laughter)

Tini Lawry: I was already retired, so I had a pension from the government. And so I thought yes, we can make it. We can make it. We will just do some figures and yes, we can do, we can make it."

Peter Lawry: It actually came about, Jim, as I was driving out of the doors of a retreat center where I was a trustee, and I have no idea why God chose that moment, but I literally, as I turn onto the highway, just the thought dropped in my mind, "Peter, you do realize you're never gonna have a salary again."

And my first response was I'm glad you didn't tell me that three years ago when I started this journey, 'cause I probably wouldn't have gone on it." So there was a surprise. But it was also quite exciting, and I knew that Tini was behind me all the way.

Martha: Yeah. Okay, so let's talk quickly about how has God been using you, Peter, in your mid-60s?

Peter Lawry: I guess in part I've covered some of those things. I have I've spent... I still do spend quite a lot of time with business owners, and I speak prophetically into their businesses. I have, I currently mentor two young people. I've got some people in Bangladesh that are- I'm in contact with because of a trip I made there two years ago.

It looks like God is just actually developing a new relationship there with a young man who's in his young 20s who's looking for mentorship as well. There was somebody that I was- I met on a, in a Zoom group that I was part of recently. He comes from Denmark, and he's just asked me, "Would you mentor me?"

And my response is yes," but what I love to do is to look at those mentoring relationships as becoming mutual because we both have things we can build into each other's lives. And there's a full kind of gamut of things that I do with individuals. There are things that I do with groups.

I public speak on a reasonably regular basis at this stage now. I am the prayer coordinator, prayer ministry coordinator at our church, and we run two 24/7 prayer weeks every year- ... where we get the church gathering around the feet of Christ specifically to develop relationship with Him. It's not about functional, operational things we pray for as the business world would call it. It's much more around who is Jesus? How do we develop this relationship intentionally with Him? And all of that I just passionately love.

Martha: That's great.

Jim: Did you ever expect your 60s and your 70s, Tini, she just barely - did you ever expect them to be so vibrant, that so full of opportunity, so full of newness?

Tini Lawry: I probably didn't. I have got lots of projects in my cupboards and everywhere, and I said, "I'll do that when I'm retired." And I'm already six years retired, and they're still untouched in there. So it has taken me probably by surprise a little bit that I have gotten out of time to actually yeah, be with other people. And the relationships have been, I have got time for and I can talk, and I can do what I love to do and with the people I love to do it with. So- And yeah, so that's definitely a better thing.

Jim: Sounds like you need to give those projects to somebody else. Oh, yeah. It's if they've been in your cupboards for six years, just free their future. Get rid of them. (laughter)

Peter Lawry: But Jim, there, there are things in Tini's cupboard that have been there a lot longer than six years.

Jim: Peter. Peter. (laughter)

Martha: You're going into the winter months now. Maybe you'll get a few winter items.

Jim: Peter's now flying in the back of the plane on the way back to New Zealand. Tini's flying business class. (laughter)

Martha: Oh. Hey, Jim, why don't you talk a little bit about the iRetire4Him Summer Initiative that you're talking about these days?

Jim: Okay. Here's what I'm talking about. Here's the deal. And I hinted about it in a podcast back in April. One of the things that I'm seeing, and it's- And I can say this merely categorically across Christianity around the globe, we're not doing a great job loving our neighbors.

Peter Lawry: Yeah.

Jim: Because if we were loving our neighbors, like if every believer loved three other neighbors, the entire globe would be loved. Yeah. Because 25% of the population of the globe is Jesus followers, and so if we added the other 75, we would reach them with God's love. So my challenge to you this summer, we all live in a neighborhood.

Some of you live in the country, and your neighborhood is several miles. Most of you live in neighborhoods where you're, you could reach across and touch your neighbor's walls, 'cause you live in a townhouse or an apartment. Some of you live in HOAs, purgatory on Earth, right? Homeowner's associations.

You, you might live in a regular suburban neighborhood. You might live in a city. You might live in the country. Whatever it looks like, we all have neighbors. And it may be, in fact, you live in the remotest part of the world, but you go and work somewhere, and your neighbors would be those you work with. My challenge to you this summer is to have a picnic potluck that you host, and do it in your home. And if your home is small-

Martha: or your yard ... I

Jim: was getting there. Okay. And if your y- yard, if your home is too small, then do it in your yard, and rent one of those pop-up tents or buy one of those pop-up canopy tents, whatever.

Invite people onto your territory. The territory where you worship Jesus in all the time. Invite your neighbors in. Do a potluck. Absolutely must do a potluck. Maybe you supply the meat, whatever it may be. Hot dogs, hamburgers, they're cheap enough. They're not as cheap as they were before, but they're still cheap enough.

But have a potluck because then you get to experience everybody's greatest cooking. It is the best pleasure of, on the planet. And just get to know your neighbors. Do it non-alcoholic. Just tell people, if you wanna bring a beer, fine, you bring a beer. But we're not gonna, I'm not gonna supply any alcohol. We're gonna have pop and lemonade and iced tea or whatever, and water. And just give people an incentive not to drink, because when you don't drink, you can actually have great conversations with people.

But have a potluck. And here's the challenge: send us a picture, jim@iwork4him.com, jim@iwork, the number four, him.com. We'll put it in the show notes, won't we, Martha? And at the end of the summer, we're going to draw one of those pictures, and we've already got somebody that's already, done this already. One of those people are gonna o- win a grand prize. That's the part we haven't decided yet. What's the grand prize?

Martha: But it'll be great.

Jim: But it will be great, and it'll be worth, it'll be worth your time and investment. A- and we'll announce that as shows go on during the summer. And I'm sorry, we didn't have that worked out before we went live on the show today.

Peter Lawry: So do you have to live in America to participate in that?

Jim: No, certainly not. No. Anywhere in the world. iRetire4Him is being listened to on the globe, you can enter in, just have to prove it with a picture. Could be a digital picture. You could send me one on Kodak paper, that would even be better. That'd be hilarious.

Martha: Actually, it'd be more difficult, but, I think the encouragement there is, you know- Great question, Peter, because we all have the same Bible, right? And the Bible says to love our neighbors. And this is an opportunity to build those relationships in a very comfortable way, help them to learn that you're trustworthy, that you're kind, that you're hospitable, that you're a safe place all of those things that are communicated just through food and time together.

Jim: Food. Food. Food is the universal language of love.

Martha: And if you have a few games, that's great, something for the kids to do that keeps them, whether it's bubbles or jump ropes or whatever it might be. But just do something with your neighbors, and then let us know about it. We would love to bless you with some kind of a grand prize.

Jim: Yeah. A- most of you listening have an extra couple hundred dollars. Rent a bouncy house for the kids, just for the day. You can do that for a couple hundred bucks. We were at Sam's Club. They have the world's largest bouncy house, water slide thing and everything.

Martha: Jim wants one ... 200 bucks. Jim wants one.

Jim: Now, I know for some of you that's not reasonable, but for some of you, it is.

Martha: Or you might know somebody who already has one- You could share ... and you can borrow it.

Jim: From state to state, you could share.

Martha: So that's our summer initiative for iRetire4Him. All right, Jim, as we wrap this up, how do the two of you guys see yourselves working side by side as you go into your 70s together? And we're pretty transparent on this show because it is iRetire4Him, so that's why we're saying the ages, because it's- ... it's relative to our listeners. So what do you see that looking like, Peter?

Peter Lawry: The 70s, I think, excite me quite a bit. And as we have been together and as we've been doing stuff together at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce event recently, we found ourselves operating in a really different space. God has begun to open up ministry opportunities for us in new ways and things that we didn't ever do in ministry together. And it can be so unbelievably simple.

The other day, we were at SeaWorld, and we were coming out with our lunch from a cafe and a lady saw that there were no other tables available, and she said, "Come sit down here." And they and their family chatted with us, and then she happened to mention she had sciatica.

And I just felt God say to me, "Pray for her." So as they got up to leave, I said, "Look, would you be open for prayer?" And she was a Christian, the family was Christian, and that was very nice. It made it not quite confronting. But we prayed for them, and her pain level out of 10 went down from seven to one with the first prayer.

So we prayed a second time, and it went. That was something we did together. And, f- for us it was the first fruits of what was coming here in America for us. Yeah. And but I... it doesn't take a lot other than a little bit of courage to say, "May I pray for you?" Doesn't take a bit of courage for us to do that kind of stuff together.

And Tini's been brilliant about learning to bless people. And so we leave blessings behind wherever we go. We hope very much that some of the things - we're both involved with the Lion's Club and with ministry assignments and just the people we know, that we can continue to start doing things far more together than we've had liberty to do for the last wee while.

Martha: Just an observation again, just to point out for the listeners, is that being on the same page in whatever it is that's going on in your life allows you the opportunity, rather than Tini going we need to get to the next show. Why are you offering prayer?" You're on the same page and saying, "Yes, this is a, this is something God has called us to do together, and it's a gift of our time, but it's for the kingdom."

And so really challenging all of us to think about that, because that really makes a difference in how we approach it, rather than saying, "Okay, I'm gonna wait while Peter does this." Tini is a part of it, and you are in agreement-

Peter Lawry: Absolutely part of it. Yeah ...

Martha: of this time and this way that you're going to approach life. So what a great encouragement. Thank you.

Jim: Peter and Tini Lawry from New Zealand. We're so grateful that you joined us today on iRetire4Him. We look forward to the follow-up in a couple years to see what God has divulged to you in your walk as retirees. But thank you for being with us today.

Tini Lawry: Thank you so much.

Peter Lawry: Thank you very much.

Jim: You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose so we can iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him 165: Free Golf. Eternal Purpose.

Jim: This is iWork4Him. This is also iRetire4Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and faith meets retirement, and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: I grew up playing golf. It was the only place my dad and I could talk. Dad loved golf and retired so he could play almost every day. I challenged dad often about his golfing, asking him, is there a point to your golfing, dad? What are you gonna say to God when you walk into heaven and he asks you, what did you do with your 27 years of retirement? Dad would say, I shot my age a couple of times.

Golf is known as "a good walk spoiled" by the famous author, Mark Twain, but to Challenge Golf, it's known as a place where ministry begins. And Ron 3-Putt Potter, he loves golf. Apparently he has a problem with putting, but he loves golf. Challenge golf is focused on using the game of golf to minister to those who are struggling with the realities of life, one golfer at a time. Wes Kleiner joined the board of directors four years ago and is now the executive director of Challenge Golf. And both Wes and Ron join us today.

They could be retired, but now they're working harder than ever and the results are out of this world. Ron and Wes, welcome to iWork4Him and iRetire4Him.

Ron Potter: Thank you, Jim and Martha. Thank you, Jim and Martha, for having us.

Jim: Oh, you bet. Ron, where did the love of golf enter your life?

Ron Potter: I actually didn't start playing golf till after I played baseball in college. I went to a small school up in Upper East Tennessee, near Elizabeth. It was called Milligan. And basically it was a curve ball that got me a college education. And I thank the Lord for that. 'Cause I was a pitcher. And then when I got outta school, I was competitive, so I wanted something to do. So my dad and I started playing golf, and so that's when I actually fell in love with the game.

Jim: Wow. So where did Jesus enter your life in that whole equation?

Ron Potter: That was a long time before college. I was 11 years old and I felt convicted about my sins and I started asking my parents questions, and it was back in the day when the pastor would actually come out and visit you at your house, and the pastor came out to my house and he led me to the Lord. And it's changed my life ever since.

Jim: So before Challenge Golf, how did your faith impact your work?

Ron Potter: I was in corporate sales for many years and I would take clients out to the golf course and I would take 'em to lunch. And of course I wanted to share my faith with them because it was real in my life. It had changed my life, and I wanted them to know about Jesus as well.

Martha: That's so good. And I wanna hear - Ron, I guess for our listeners, we met almost five years ago, and I think our listeners need a to hear or have a reminder of about the mission of Challenge Golf. What is it all about?

Ron Potter: Absolutely. We wanna share the good news with a million golfers, and that was the original vision, and that was back in the year 2004. And the Lord has just laid it on my heart. I had two businesses I was running and owned and operated, and I sold one and I closed the other. And about the time that you came, and I remember you came to the Tim Tebow event, and I think it was at the Carnegie Hotel in Johnson City, Tennessee. And it was about that time that we wanted to start making Challenge Golf evangelistic.

Jim: We also did the events at Macklemore, which that was gorgeous. What a place that was.

Ron Potter: Yeah, that's an incredible venue. And we still go there each year. And they're friends of the ministry and it's always great to have a venue like that. They've added a new golf course too, Jim, and they've got this hotel resort now that makes it easy for us to have a banquet.

Jim: Nice. When you say you wanna reach a million golfers for Christ, how does that happen when you're out playing golf? 'Cause when you're playing golf, you gotta concentrate on one thing because between the time when you're taking your back swing and you come back and you wanna hit the ball, 'cause I get distracted between the back swing and the forward swing, it's a very long period of time. I don't have time to think about anything else. How do you intermix all of that in one?

Ron Potter: We don't share Jesus on the golf course itself. We do it either prior to the event or after the event. We have banquets and we have guest speakers, and a lot of times it's ordained pastors that come and share the good news. Or it might be someone like Tim Tebow or Darrell Strawberry or Tom Lehman, or some of our good friends that who have the celebrity status and then when they show up, of course that helps us attract the crowd.

Martha: Yeah.

Ron Potter: But by the way, we're doing free golf events each month with each chapter. Just the word free attracts a lot of golfers and it helps us to book out these events each time we do one.

Jim: Therefore you're not paying for the frustration. You actually get free frustration. (laughter)

Martha: I like that. Oh, that's awesome. I love the concept because you are attracting people in a, to an area that they're already interested in, but you are giving them no obstacles for getting there. In fact, you're enticing them by the people that they can maybe hear from and learn from. Tell us about some of the amazing miracles that you've seen God do since the onset of Challenge Golf began.

Ron Potter: One that comes to mind was a gentleman by the name of Scotty Fitzgerald. He calls our chapter director one Sunday afternoon. He said - now keep in mind he came to an event three years prior to calling our chapter director - and he said, I was at Black Creek in Chattanooga three years ago, and I remember this guy named 3-Putt Potter. He probably said, I remember this fat ugly guy named three put Potter, (laugher) but Gary didn't tell me that, and Gary just said he, he said, Ron, he's in the hospital and he's got liver cancer.

And he asked that we come up and see him. So I stopped what I was doing. We went up on a Sunday afternoon, and I remember we led Scotty to the Lord that day. And it changed his life. And now I know that we'll spend eternity with Scotty. And we'll play the Real Master's Invitational once we get to Heaven.

Jim: Oh, you think there's gonna be golf in heaven?

Ron Potter: Absolutely. Because Lord gives us the desires of our heart.

Martha: Eternal golf. (chuckling)

Jim: But you will never be able to play Jesus, cause He is gonna have a perfect swing every time.

Ron Potter: True. There's no bogies in heaven either.

Martha: But there's also no crying, this is a good thing when it comes to golf.

Jim: I just can't imagine chipping through heaven.

Martha: What a great miracle though, to actually share. That's just I'm sure the tip of the iceberg, but what a victory that you guys open the door, that to create a relationship that could then be called upon. 'Cause often people call upon the Lord and are looking for that in their desperate time of need and he knew where to go, and you made that possible through Challenge Golf. That is such a great story.

Jim: I love that. All right. Most of us use our mobile devices and our computers not only to listen to music and podcasts, but also to conduct business and communicate with others. Imagine if you get a virus on your device and you can't use it for its intended purposes. It will only set you back on time and waste energy and potentially compromise the work you're doing. SaferNet is a trusted partner of iWork4Him and iRetire4Him that we've installed on all of our mobile devices and computers.

Their virus protection, VPN, 84 web filters, keep the bad guys out so you can keep doing the Kingdom of God work that he has called you to do. Check out safer net.com. Let them know that iWork4Him sent you. Alright, so Wes heading over to you. Where did your love of golf come from?

Wes Kliner: I started golfing with my dad when I was probably 11 years old, maybe 12. He had an older set of clubs he cut down a little bit. He'd take me out to the range. We'd hit balls. When I started hitting him a little bit more consistently, he would take me out with he and his brother and a friend of theirs, and I would be the guy that would have to find all the balls in the rough.

But I got some shots in and, when I got into high school, I just exploded. I loved it. Started playing all the time with buddies and kept playing with my dad. Never could beat my dad until I got into high school.

Jim: Oh, you did? You've beaten your dad. I never beat my dad ever in golf. I never got to do it.

Wes Kliner: Hey, he was a very busy man. He was my, he's the guy I looked up to. A very wonderful servant of God, took care of all of his family. He was the caretaker for his mom, his dad, his sister, who was invalid. So I had a good role model growing up. I really did.

Martha: That's fabulous.

Wes Kliner: I spent a lot of time with him.

Martha: So tell us about your love of Jesus. Where did that come into your life?

Wes Kliner: I first heard about Jesus when I was in first grade and my first grade teacher asked my mom and dad if I can go to church with them. I was a teacher's pet back then. I guess I still am because i've always been the guy people went to when they got a problem. I tend to be a problem solver. The bottom line is I heard about Jesus, but I never invited him into my life. I just had a good knowledge of who he is, and it wasn't until I was in high school and my best friend became my pastor's son, and I would hang out with him.

I talked to his dad quite a bit and I learned that it's not just getting the Lord and knowing who he is, it's getting him in your heart and dedicating yourself, just giving yourself completely over to him and providing service to other people. I'd had a great service model, but doing it for the Lord and glorifying the Lord and doing all of that is what became my focus. So it was in high school and I was baptized by my best friend's dad.

Martha: Oh, that's really special. Okay, so you just recently retired from your first career and really started a new career with Challenge Golf. But let's talk about your first career as a judge. How did your faith impact your work there?

Wes Kliner: There again, in my past lives, my first real long career was the law. I went to law school, = at the age of 32. I'd been a military officer. I'd also worked and built some houses in a gap year between my sophomore and junior year, or sophomore year. And when I enlisted in the Army - I speak Russian- I was a Russian linguist when I was enlisted. The Army sent me back to college. That's my background. So I had a lot of variety in my background and my wife and I both went to Memphis State, not University of Memphis back in 87.

We graduated in 90. And I worked as a lawyer for various firms and companies, wound up being general counsel for a couple of corporations and also worked helping a couple 501c3s get organized. And so about 12 and a half years ago, I became a US administrative law judge with social security. I loved that job because I was helping people who really needed to be helped. And discerning who was not really needing the help and was trying to take advantage of the system. So I felt like a good gatekeeper, but also a great servant to be able to help those people who were truly in need of help.

That's, I left that career. I had planned on working - i'm 72. I'm older than this guy. I know I look younger, but I'm older. (chuckles) About four years. I planned on working until I was 75 and my wife was all for it because financially we were doing well, but I'm getting ahead of myself. My first exposure to Challenge Golf was the Tebow event that you all were there and I was totally impressed with the ministry.

I was invited by Brandon Guy who helped with all the sound in the video. Anyway, I sing with him. I sing barbershop, too. So the bottom line is I saw the mission of Challenge Golf that this guy had envisioned, and I love it because not only do I believe in evangelism, I'm big in discipleship. It's time for men to stand up, women as well, to be leaders, to be disciples of Christ because the only way that our faith it's propagated in the next generation as if we plant those seeds of the gospel and then nurture them by getting them into the word and getting them to pray.

So that's my passion. That's what I've worked for all my life as a member of a church, as a deacon, as a Sunday school teacher, singing in choir, those sort of things. So my life has always been about commitment to the Lord in whatever I did. I'm the guy that you say, have a nice day. And I look at somebody, I'll say, have is a passive board, I'm proactive. I hope you are too, and you make it a great day. Because the Lord blesses everyone.

Martha: So were you implying then that you hurried up your retirement from your career so that you could then move into a role at Challenge Golf?

Wes Kliner: Actually I was browbeat by Ron, (laughter) And my fleece was if my wife is okay with it, then I'm okay with it. But she's, I have a fabulous wife, Pam, who just, she's my biggest fan. She's my biggest critic. She always lets me know when I'm messing up, which is frequent. So the bottom line is she said, Hey, it's where your heart is. It's always been where your heart is. We're good. Go forth. Do this, it's what the Lord is leading you to do. So that's what led me to come on board, my background, administration, leadership, those sort of things. So I'm an organizer. I'm a name taker. A rear end kicker too.

Ron Potter: And by the way, Wes and I are best of friends, and as a former federal judge, I like to kid him that his sentences are always long.

 (laughter)

Jim: Oh boy. Okay. Okay.

Wes Kliner: I was a lawyer. I get paid by the word. (laughter)

Martha: That's right. Wow. That's exactly right. Oh, that's wonderful though.

Jim: So there really will be lawyers in heaven. I always wondered about that, if there'd be lawyers in heaven.

 (laughing)

Wes Kliner: I know. At least two - my wife and I.

Jim: Nice, nice.

Martha: That's fabulous.

Jim: There you go.

Martha: You know so much like your story, Wes, where it's a reboot, sometimes we need a mid-year reboot. And this June, we want to invite everyone listening to join us in Cincinnati for the National Faith at Work Summit. June 17th through 19th with a theme of frontiers: collaboration, creativity, and continuity.

We invite participants to examine emerging opportunities and challenges at the intersection of faith, leadership, and work. I'll put the link in the show notes, but Jim and I will be MCing this event and we really hope to see you all there.

Jim: Alright, Ron, Challenge Golf enters a new era this spring, as spring arrives across the country. What can we expect from Challenge Golf this year, 2026?

Ron Potter: With Wes' Leadership, we're rolling out a new discipleship program that I'm really excited about. It's an 18 week kind of paralleling 18 holes. It's an 18 week discipleship program, and it's gonna assist golfers with their next steps in faith, both believers and unbelievers.

Jim: And how are you gonna pair the golfers up? Because discipleship is really mentoring and discipleship all at one time because we need to learn to live life along somebody who's a little further down the road in our faith. How do you do the matching up thing?

Ron Potter: When we do the invitational, we have caddies and caddies are like us. We put on a caddy uniform. We invite our unchurched golfers to come out and play in a free round of golf, which is a picture of a mulligan, being free. And then at the end of the day, we actually tell 'em about Jesus, who we compare that to God's Mulligan for mankind, the second chance we don't deserve and that we did not earn.

And so the caddy then will be given this discipleship program, and it teaches him how to go out into the community and follow up with the golfer that he led to that golf tournament. His original purpose is just to get the unchurched friend of his to the free golf tournament. It's pretty easy to do that when it's a free golf tournament.

Wes Kliner: In each chapter that we found in a new community, what we do is we look to partner up with local evangelical churches and we get their men's and women's ministries, women who and men who are golfers, to become involved as the leaders of that local chapter. And we're, we're looking for people that believe in the Apostles creed basically, Jesus Christ, triune God, and the only way to heaven is through faith in Christ and the filling of the Holy Spirit when you accept him as both savior and Lord of your life.

Church has that as a commitment. Yeah, I don't care whether you're sprinkled or dunked. We want you to come on board and partner with us, and it's those folks who will then act as the mentors. They also act as a landing point for those who are unchurched and unsaved to be able to go to and have fellowship, to have koinonia with a group of believers. So what we're looking to do is we're looking for human capital when we go to churches.

We don't need their financial support. We want people to be involved. And it's low impact. We're gonna provide a program that allows them to walk through, in a very logical fashion, the foundations of our faith. And then what it means to be a disciple. What are the attributes and what are the characteristics of a disciple? And what do you need to do to become a disciple?

And really all it is you need to be a servant that is willing to share, share who you love, the Lord Jesus Christ, the Bible that you use, and I prefer the English standard version. So the John MacArthur comment version, study Bible. So the bottom line is we get churches to partner up with this.

Martha: One of the things I think that has always gotten Jim and I pumped up about what you guys do at Challenge Golf is that you're taking a love that people have and you're being intentional about it.

One of the things that we see so often in life is that christians are living passively and they're going and playing golf, and then they're doing this other Bible study, or they're doing this other thing with other people. And you've married the two and you've said, let's attract the people that already love to play golf that need to hear about the mulligan of life.

And I love that analogy. I love your hearts. So tell us. With this new Bible study and with a fresh spring, and all the things that start up in the springtime, what are you looking for as far as expansion this year?

Ron Potter: That's easy. We're focused on Virginia Tennessee, of course, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and North Carolina. And we have, we're gonna start chapters in each of those areas because we have contacts there. For example, Wes and I, last month we went to several cities, including Augusta and Jacksonville and Panama City and Birmingham. And in Jacksonville we met with First Baptist Church, 28,000 members.

And the missions director there got really excited about what we're doing. So suddenly there's a potential chapter to be born right there through the church, and again, as Wes says, we're not asking the church for a dime, we're just looking for their golfers to help us begin chapters and we think it'll be organic that way.

It's we'll hear about a church here or there, and they'll hear about us. And like with this podcast, we could get some responses from this podcast from an area that we did not plan to start a chapter this year. But hey, we gotta start a chapter there because they're interested and they've got a group or a church and they wanna help.

Martha: So let's talk about that real quick. I will put some links in the show notes, we'll talk about it off camera of what links to put in there to, for people to contact you because this is going to intrigue some listeners, whether they are retired and looking for that purpose with their golf, or they're still working and want to make more intentionality with the people that they surround themselves with. We've got both avenues. We want to get people activated in that way. So listeners, I will have that. Look for that in the show notes, how you can get ahold of Wes and Ron 3-Putt Potter and get some information of how you can get involved because we get pretty excited about this because it is, it is real life, and we've seen how people have been led to Jesus through it, and so we want people to know about it, which is why we have you on the show today.

Jim: I wanna just, I'm gonna step back for just a say. I wanna step back for just a say, because what I want - just describe, are you having events weekly or monthly?

Wes Kliner: Monthly in each chapter.

Jim: Okay.

Wes Kliner: And they vary. We have three different free events where both believers and unbelievers or unchurched members will partner up and they will golf for free. The Invitational is an event where we take on strictly the servant role as caddies, and it's all unbelievers.

And then we have VIP events. We have a VIP event coming up April 20th at the Old Farm in Bristol, Virginia. And our guests are gonna be Charlie Reimer. Henry Cho, the comedian Henry Cho from Knoxville. I'm sure you all have heard of him or met him in the past. That we're looking real. We're looking forward to - that's where one of the avenues we use for raising money. We're looking for committed business owners and believers who wanna see this ministry expand nationwide.

We're focused regionally because we have a staff now, not just Ron and I, but there are six other gentlemen who are working with us. We have a staff of eight now who are committed full time to seeing chapter expansion, outreach to churches to get em to partner up, fundraisers to go to businesses and seek their support, who want to see the spread of the gospel in a very fertile mission field.

Of all the athletic venues I've ever been on, I have not seen one other than golf that where the Lord's name was mentioned more often than on a golf field. (laughter) unfortunately most of the time, not in a reverent manner. So believe me, it is a fertile mission.

Jim: Amen. Absolutely. I love that. Check 'em out online: challengegolf.org. Challenge Golf org. Ron, as we close out today's show, how many golfers have come to know Jesus because of Challenge Golf in the last several years?

Ron Potter: We've had 261 written decisions for Christ in our last 18 invitationals, and that is phenomenal. We're averaging over 30% written decisions when we do our outreach event. So let's celebrate that together, and thank you guys so much for having us on today.

Wes Kliner: Thank you.

Jim: Yeah, you bet. Challenge Golf. Org. I'm not much of a golfer anymore. My dad kinda wore that out on me, but boy, when you hang out with these guys, golfing is fun. And it's an adventure and now it's your mission. Check it out online. Challenge Golf. Org.

You've been listening to iWork4Him and an iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and apparently our golf course can be a mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

iRetire4Him 164: Your Summer Challenge: Have a Picnic

Jim Brangenberg: Hi, I am Jim Brangenberg with iRetire4Him. I wanted to do just a little monologue today. Spring's around the corner. I know! You look at this background, if you're looking at the YouTube video, it's still snowy in some places and some places it's ridiculously warm, but Spring is on the way and we need to change our perspective.

Just as winter turns into spring, so the opportunity for ministry in our neighborhoods explodes. When the cold breaks and everything becomes new, it just gets better for connecting with neighbors. One of the things that I've realized is that Christians have been marginalized for way too long. We hang out with other people in our church.

We have jobs where we don't live out our faith. Porches in the, not in the front of the house. We have porches in the back of the house. We have so many things that have changed and we need to make a new start. That was hard for me to get out. I understand. But the, iRetire4Him crowd, the iRetire4Him crowd in this country has the most power, the most influence, the most wisdom, the most knowledge, and is the most sought after of any other audience in the country. Young people around this country are desperate to hang out with people who have been there, done that, can write the book and some of them have - they wanna hang out with you.

And so I wanna introduce this idea, this challenge, and it's a challenge for sure. I wanna challenge you to hold a picnic. Those of you on the video, you could see that I've just put a picnic background, a beautiful green grass, instead of the snowy winter. Here's the deal. Picnics are powerful. Potlucks are some of the best way to get access to other people's recipes in the country. And when you have a potluck, you get to share so many things. Potluck picnic, that's what I'm saying, A potluck picnic. There's an opportunity to hang out and just be. It's something that we've forgotten as an American people.

We've forgotten how to be, how to just hang out and be, and when was the last time you just were? You hung out without an agenda. You had an hour without anything to do, or an afternoon or an evening without anything to do. That's the challenge. Every one of you listening to this show lives in a neighborhood.

That neighborhood may look different. It might be an apartment neighborhood. It might be a condo neighborhood. It might be a townhouse neighborhood. It might be a single family home development neighborhood. Might be a duplex neighborhood. It might be you live in a mobile home park or a park model park, wherever you live in a neighborhood.

Some of you live on farmland, so your neighborhood is every quarter mile, but you still live in a neighborhood. You've got neighbors. Do you know what those neighbors need? They need friendships. They need relationships. They need Jesus. They need to be loved on by somebody. They need words of affirmation. They need to know that they're valued as a human being.

Picnics can do all of those things at one time. When you invite somebody over for a picnic, it shows that they're valuable. When you say, Hey, bring your favorite recipe, it shows that you appreciate them. You're also maybe lusting after their favorite recipe, but it's okay.

When you invite somebody on your own property, you've got dominion there. That's a property you've prayed over. When they come onto your property, they're gonna experience Jesus, whether you talk about Jesus or not. But I highly recommend that you do. But just bring it up in conversation, not focusing on just presenting the gospel.

I've got my favorite springtime picnic shirt on today, and it's to remind us all that spring is a time for new beginnings, for trying new things. God makes that green grass comes outta the ground and the crocuses and the tulips and the daffodils and paper whites and all the different flowers that come outta the ground, and then the trees, the dogwoods are beautiful, white or pink. The red buds here in Missouri are purple, but they're red buds. I dunno why they're not purple buds, but everything's so gorgeous. It's just so nice to see green again after months with no green.

Your neighbors feel the same way. They wanna be outside too. Invite 'em over for a picnic, invite 'em onto your land. It's hard with the weather, but normally we could see the weather off for a couple weeks and you can take a pretty good shot at a Saturday or a Sunday afternoon or evening and have people over. We gotta start transforming this country. We're not gonna transform this country through politics, and we're not gonna transform this country through a movement in the four walls of the church.

We're gonna transform this country through a movement of doing the stuff that Jesus told us to do. Love God and love our neighbors. Have them over for a picnic. One neighborhood at a time, we could turn this nation back over to God. A nation that's turned its back on God and murdered its children. A nation that's turned its back on God and collaborated with the enemy across the globe. That nation needs Jesus -and you. You're that solution.

The Holy Spirit of God living inside of you vibrantly impacts everybody around you, whether they believe in Jesus or not. This is a nation that was founded on picnics. I guarantee you that our founding fathers knew how to throw a good picnic. This is a nation that was founded on biblical principles, on biblical morality, on the Bible of people who are willing to give up everything so that you and I can have the freedom that we have 250 years later.

This is a country that needs Jesus, and I'm giving you the best idea possible for the next five months: have picnics. Invite people over, and have picnics. My recommendation to you is you supply the meat. The hamburgers, the hot dogs, whatever you want to cook on the grill. You supply the meat. Let them bring the condiments, let them bring the pies, let them bring the side dishes, the salads. Not too many salads though. You want it to be good food.

You supply the drinks maybe too, or tell people to bring their own drinks. Yeah, if you do that, people won't bring too much beer. Just you supply the drinks if you want to. If you don't want it to be alcohol, just say you'll supply the drinks. There's nothing wrong with somebody having a beer on a hot day, but your picnic will change if people have a six pack on a hot day. Have a picnic with your neighbors.

Ladies and gentlemen, this country desperately needs you. Our retired people in this country, they need you. You represent 50 plus million people in this country who have quit their jobs and are no longer actively getting a paycheck, but yet, you are full of opportunities for meaning and purpose. I'm giving you one of those. Your wisdom, your knowledge, your love for Christ is desperately needed everywhere in this country. And you can introduce your neighborhood to Jesus by having people over for a picnic.

Have I said picnic enough for everybody? I just wanted to make sure that you heard my heart. Have a picnic this summer. Transform your neighborhood through relationships. Love on the people that you live with, and just watch God do amazing things. You're listening to iRetire4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg.

All I want is for you to be able to say at the end of the day and at the end of this summer, iRetire4Him... at a picnic!

iRetire4Him 163: What If Your Address Was Your Assignment?

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days.

Martha Brangenberg: Welcome to iRetire4Him. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brandenburg. Check us out online at iRetire4Him.com.

Jim Brangenberg: So when you retire, you have to live somewhere, right? For years we've talked on the show that we need to live with intentionality in our neighborhoods. We talk about it in our book, iRetire4Him. Whether we're working or retired, our neighborhoods are a fantastic mission field.

So what if you're mission-minded, retired, need a reasonable place to live, and you wanna reach some of the most lost people in the country? We have the answer for you: apartmentlife.org. 10 years ago we were connected with Sean Bailey from Apartment Life out of Orlando, and he came on the iWork4Him Show to tell us about this incredible opportunity to be up on mission right in your neighborhood, your local apartment complex.

Fast forward 10 years and CEO Pete Kelly sends out an Apartment Life email highlighting the story of Ken and Patti Sandel out of Gallatin, Tennessee. A retired couple living on a mission in an apartment complex, making an impact by building community with their neighbors.

On mission in retirement, living a life of meaning and purpose by pouring their lives into the lives of their neighbors. Ken and Patti are here to tell us more and perhaps inspire you to think about where you should be living in the next phase of your life. apartmentlife.org has needs for apartment complex missionaries all over the country. So let's hear from Ken and Patti. Ken and Patti, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Patti Sandel: Thank you.

Ken Sandel: Thanks for having us.

Jim Brangenberg: Oh, we're thrilled to have you here. You guys could have lived anywhere when you retired. You had successful careers in the insurance industry. Why didn't you retire and move to the mountains or the beaches and just check out of life?

Patti Sandel: We actually did go to the mountains and to the beach. When we first went in the mission field, God took us to those places. We were not with Apartment Life. We were with other agencies, but we did the mountain and we did the beach and it was lovely to be able to do our ministry in those places, but for two years we were on the road in our motor home. We had a loss on our motor home and our insurance coverage was not enough to totally replace it. We did not wanna go in debt, so we said, okay, what next, God? We were staying with our son and daughter-in-law in Atlanta for a few days.

And one morning I got up and went to the kitchen and my daughter-in-law says, are you familiar with Apartment Life? And I said, A little bit. Not a lot, but some. And she said I think you need to look into it more. And so I spent the next day, hours and into the night, until one o'clock in the morning reading everything I could about Apartment Life, and so I took it to Ken.

And when I had showed this to him years before, when we were first going to go into the mission field, he said, I don't wanna live in an apartment. And I said, that kills that idea.

Jim Brangenberg: Oh, he was telling God what he thought. (laughter)

Patti Sandel: But this time when I showed it to him, he said, it's not about me. It's about where God wants to plant us. Apply. So I did, and we were immediately contacted by Dewan Brown in Nashville. We went through a series of interviews and they decided that we were a fit. However, our son in Atlanta said, y'all are too old to do this.

Jim Brangenberg: He obviously never met Abraham and Sarah, Moses, people that started their jobs at 80.

 (chuckles)

Patti Sandel: So his wife said, no, they are not. They have all the skills that are needed. Do not discourage this. And we moved to Nashville first. We were in our first community. We were in our first community for a year and a half. And then they knew that we had children in Gallatin and grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

And this community had actually had a couple of other couples to look at it and had said no. We are living in a place that is much different from any place that we've ever lived. This community was a Section 8 community and had a lot of disorder and a lot of crime and was not what you would choose in our time of life, if you were doing the choosing, but we were not doing the choosing. God was.

So we looked at it and said, this community needs the love of Jesus more than most. These children need to be loved on. These adults need to know that there's more to life than the struggles.

Ken Sandel: Can I interject?

Jim Brangenberg: Of course you can.

Ken Sandel: We had, they gave us two weeks. We didn't know. They kept calling, said, have you come to a decision? I said, no, I'm not, just not clear on it. I'm not sure we're through with where we are. And finally after about two weeks, I finally felt clear and I said, okay, honey, if you are with it, I'm with it. I'm ready to go wherever he wants us to go, even though it's not being one of the places that we would choose. But we're here and we love what we're doing.

Patti Sandel: And in 1 John, it says that when you let the Lord place you, that you are fruitful.

Jim Brangenberg: We're gonna hear a lot more about that fruitfulness.

Martha Brangenberg: So let's talk about that. So, you guys are 70 and 83, and you are now just launching this new ministry in the August Oaks Apartments. And so I guess you've been there about a year, I believe. Is that correct?

Patti Sandel: Yes. Uhhuh.

Martha Brangenberg: So what was it about that neighborhood that made you say yes? Was it something about the neighborhood or your obedience? Tell us.

Patti Sandel: It was obedience. But it was also knowing that these people needed what we had to give with Christ leading us. They were hurting, they were distrustful. We couldn't hardly even get the children to speak to us at first. And we are the minority here. Number one, being seniors. We are the minority being Caucasian. We are the minority. And so we knew that this was a place that Jesus would have come to. If he was walking on Earth today as a man, he would have come here. He would have loved these people. He would have healed these people and that's why we came.

Jim Brangenberg: And he is walking on this earth as a man inside Ken through the Holy Spirit. So that's fantastic. We're gonna take a break here. Just hear from one of our sponsors.

We don't have to be tech geniuses to protect ourselves from the enemy that's lurking around looking for retired people to devour. That's right. The enemy knows that seniors are more likely to click on those pretty buttons on websites and emails that may take them down a dangerous hole leading to a virus, a scam, or other nonsense.

I know this because i have a 92-year-old mother and I'm constantly saying, mom, please don't click on that. SaferNet is a simple application that we use at iRetire4Him to protect us from the unwanted evils that are trying to take advantage of you. Their virus protection, web filters are designed to protect you, so you don't have to worry about the technology.

Trust your computers, your iPads, and phones to SaferNet, SaferNet.com. That's SaferNet.com. And let 'em know that iWork4Him Sent you. Alright, so let's talk about the mission of Apartment Life. What is the mission? Ken, I'm gonna give you a chance to speak. So what is the mission of Apartment Life as you're sitting there at August Oaks? What's that mission?

Ken Sandel: I think you were gonna cover that. You remember?

Jim Brangenberg: You can't read it.

Ken Sandel: Just talk from you took mine and I took hers.

Jim Brangenberg: Just talk from your heart. Okay. Go ahead Patti. If you've already got it memorized, whatever.

Ken Sandel: Our mission is to connect with the people, to get the people to connect with each other, to build a family. That means that we'll live among them. We participate with them, we play with them. We love on them. And we invite them to be part of what Jesus wants.

Patti Sandel: Our ultimate goal is to introduce them to Jesus, but we do that through all the other things that we do, building relationships with them.

Jim Brangenberg: If I remember correctly from our interviews over the years with Apartment Life people, is that the unreached people in apartment complexes, people not even going to church in the apartment., It's like somewhere around 80 or 90% of the people living in the apartment complex aren't going to church.

Patti Sandel: That's true.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. So that's a huge mission field. It's a huge mission field. So you guys plopped right down - and people say you gotta go overseas to go in mission field. No, plenty of places right here. And you jumped in a, into an apartment complex.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah. So I want to hear what does that look like? So for the listener who is listening to this and watching you guys right now and leaning in and saying, okay, they're in their apartment right now. This is a place where they're living on purpose. And what does it look like to interact with your neighbors and to love on them, the things you were just describing?

Ken Sandel: Just yesterday we were out in the backyard and it was a beautiful day, finally.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Ken Sandel: The kids were out playing in the back. So they were throwing the football and they were riding their bikes. And so we went out there and we started playing with 'em. Patti started talking to the women. I started talking to the men and to the kids, and then all of a sudden the kids and I were playing and I got some more games out. And they turned around and loved on us.

Patti Sandel: Yeah. Wanted hugs before we went in and, I've prayed for God to fill our building with children and I counted yesterday and there were 10 children in my backyard.

Martha Brangenberg: Wow.

Patti Sandel: And like he said, just the interaction with them, inviting the lady that lives up the hill to come down and visit, and she spent four hours. She's the mother of six with twins.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow.

Patti Sandel: She just needed a break. (laughing)

Jim Brangenberg: I bet she did. I need a break just thinking about it.

Patti Sandel: And we do two events a month.

Jim Brangenberg: What are those events like, Patti?

Patti Sandel: So like next Tuesday night, we're going to have a newcomers reception, and invitations are going out to everyone who has moved into the community in the last 12 months. And that happens to be St. Patrick's day. And so I'm going to decorate with green

Ken Sandel: and have green punch

Patti Sandel: and a party.

Jim Brangenberg: What about corn beef? You're gonna have some corn beef and hash, I hope.

Ken Sandel: No.

Probably not. (chuckles)

Jim Brangenberg: oh, okay.

Patti Sandel: We're going to play games and we're going to ask each head of household or whoever shows up to introduce their family and tell us something about them, how they came to live here and hope that by doing this, that the people don't just connect with us, they connect with each other. And they start friendships because so many times people live in apartments and they never meet their next door neighbor.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Patti Sandel: They never know who, they hear the baby crying, but they never see the baby.

Jim Brangenberg: Right.

Ken Sandel: People are afraid to come out. They're afraid to invite us in their home, and that's been the hardest part here. We've never had a problem before, but this has been our biggest challenge is to get into their home. They'll come out, they'll crack the door. But then we feel like the connection with the kids is gonna be the answer.

Jim Brangenberg: Have you been able to get 'em into your house to have cookies and Kool-Aid or anything like that?

Patti Sandel: We have not.

Ken Sandel: Candy, they come the door for candy.

Patti Sandel: The children come to the door. And the children will come in. The only way we can let the children in is if there's multiple children, when they come in together. And we have that happen and we give them candy and love on them. We had a little girl last week, 16-year-old who, something happened in her home and she was afraid to go home and so she came to us.

Martha Brangenberg: So you are starting to build a level of trust where they know that they can come to you. You are a safe place to go. And I think that's one of the things when people live in an apartment and they don't know their neighbors, you immediately have distrust because you just don't know them.

And so I wanna talk a little bit deeper about Apartment Life, and do they help you, give you ideas on things, ways to reach out? How do they support you guys and help you to do what it is you're there to do?

Patti Sandel: Okay. Absolutely. We have a webpage and there's ideas for events. There's information on different cultures and different religions and all for us to be able to be educated, to know how to reach others. They give us technical support. And we have a program director that if we need anything, he's there. He sends encouraging emails once a month. And so yes, there is a support system and a training system, but now I will say this, being a missionary can sometimes be lonely. You can be in the midst of doing what you do, and yet you feel like you're the one that needs the connection, even though you're working to connect people.

And you're doing it, but. It still can be a lonely place, and so you have to build relationships with other people who know and understand what you do, so that when you hit those periods, you have somewhere to reach out to.

Martha Brangenberg: Thank you for being vulnerable about that because it's important for people to understand the reality. It sounds like we're playing and doing games and candy and all of that, but there is challenges that comes with it.

I'd like to go back to something that you said earlier that we didn't really dwell on, and I think it's important for our listeners to hear: you guys decided to be missionaries. Yet you decided to be missionaries in a different way than most people would think. Can you just real briefly walk us through that, because I think this is pivotal in the conversation because you're living in intention, you're still in America, you're in somewhat of a culture that you know. You're learning things and all of that.

But what was it that you guys experienced or decided that said, after we're done earning a paycheck or whatever that pivotal moment was, this is, we want to live on purpose this way. How did that happen?

Ken Sandel: Yeah. We have been on numerous overseas mission trips and in our lifetime, in our marriage life, and it's expensive and so it's in my blood. And matter of fact, when we met, first thing I asked her, I said, what would happen if God would call your husband to the mission field? What would you say? And she said,

Patti Sandel: If he called my husband to the mission field, he would call me too.

Ken Sandel: I said good answer.

Jim Brangenberg: That's a great answer.

Patti Sandel: Yeah, but I will say this too. My mom pulled out something that I wrote when I was 10 years old. When I grew up, I was gonna be a missionary. So God planted that in me from a very young age.

Jim Brangenberg: What's really cool about Apartment Life is that there's a need for a hundred thousand couples like you that this mission field is really, you're just learning to live with intention in an apartment complex, where we all need to live with intentionally, no matter what our neighborhood looks like, whether it's an apartment complex, a mobile home park, a Florida mobile home park, or a Tennessee Mobile home park.

I mean there's an HOA. I don't know if you can live intentionally at an HOA (laughing) it's like purgatory on earth.

Martha Brangenberg: We did. (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: But it could regular or a neighborhood of homes or whatever it may be, or town homes, whatever it could be. What's really cool is that the apartment complexes that sign up with Apartment Life, they know that if you build community, so I'm talking to the business owners that are listening today or people that have friends that are business owners that have own apartment complexes: when you bring in an Apartment Life couple, it increases your retention of your people, through creation of community. And that retention, that makes you more profitable. At the same time, the people that are living there feel more safe. They are happier and they love living there because they've made connections.

Martha Brangenberg: And respect the property.

Jim Brangenberg: And they respect the property. You have less turnover. You have less damage, and it's a win-win for everybody involved. And that's why we wanna bring it up on iRetire4Him, because this is a way to live reasonably, have purpose and meaning and do every moment of the day. Obviously - you mentioned when we're getting set up at you a recliner, so obviously some part of the day is taking a nap in the recliner, i'm sure. (laughter)

You know, when the kids are at school and when the kids are, when it's a rainy day, maybe they're not out back playing. Talk to me about the ice storm this year. You guys had a wicked ice storm in Nashville this year. Did it get up to Gallatin too or not?

Ken Sandel: Oh yes.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. So those are often days when you're locked in by ice or snow, where the community comes together, 'cause everybody's trapped. And I saw pictures from other friends in northern suburbs of Nashville and yeah, you guys had a lot of ice. You could ice skate on the roads. How did that ice storm help you break down some bridges or break? How about build bridges, break down walls. That's what I meant to say.

Ken Sandel: Number one, I walk my dog. He doesn't, he's not potty trained in the house, so we walk and they see us visibly. And they speak to us and they want to pet the dog. He is the little missionary dog.

He's a six pound mixed breed longhaired Chihuahua and Pomeranian. And he loves on the kids. The kids love on him. That's a opening. That's like a common ground thing. And I'm visible. Patti and I are visible. We walked a lot and that's one of the things that even during the ice, I tried walking on it. It wasn't too fun. (chuckling)

Patti Sandel: So another thing that we did is we took food to neighbors and we had something happen that really surprised us. We took food to a neighbor. And a few hours later there was a knock at our door and it was the daughter and she had a bowl of pineapple soup, which is, it was a Spanish dish. It's a Spanish dish. And she said that her mama said that we had given a gift to them and they wanted to give a gift back for us.

Jim Brangenberg: Very cool.

Patti Sandel: And we have a couple that we had to be there for them when they needed it most. The wife, her 21-year-old son was murdered in front of her.

Martha Brangenberg: Oh dear.

Ken Sandel: She was a little bit cross with the church. She's mad at God right now. So we're trying to bridge that.

Patti Sandel: But she went with us to church on Christmas Eve, which was a huge breakthrough. But I had to be there for her when she needed to cry and say, why did God let this happen to us? Why did God take my son? And so it's not all just events and playing and parties and being the smiling face always. No, it's meeting the people where they are in their need, whatever that is.

If it's a new mama with a baby that needs food or it's somebody who's been in the hospital, or one of our neighbor's dog that they had for years died and we sent a sympathy card. Because dogs become a part of your family. And they were hurting.

Jim Brangenberg: You're pastoring your community, you're ministering in your community. You are full on missionaries, and we want everybody to know about Apartment Life. I don't know we've ever done on a show on iRetire4Him about Apartment Life. We want to have everybody hear from the two of you right now, for everybody listening, why they should consider the mission of Apartment Life in their local community, in an apartment complex near them. So, Ken, you first, why should they do it?

Ken Sandel: Number one, I would recommend that they live among the people and not just be a daytime artist. Some of the people do that long distance. They do it and not live among the people, and I think that is one thing they're missing.

Because it's hard to connect if you are not face to face with these people on a daily basis. And I would challenge 'em because we're enjoying this. I don't want people to treat me like I'm that old. I don't tell people unless she tells 'em - she gets a kick out of it. (laughter) But I don't tell 'em because that, I don't want them treating me that old, 'cause I don't feel that.

Jim Brangenberg: They especially don't wanna know that when you were graduating from high school, she was going into kindergarten. They don't wanna know that. (laughter)

Ken Sandel: I had my first date when she was born. (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: That's great.

Jim Brangenberg: But you don't wanna tell 'em that. But it's a beautiful thing because you guys are getting a chance, you're getting a chance to be - Patti, a mom to those who are motherless and Ken, a dad to those who are fatherless. Patti, why should people listening today consider the mission field of apartment living?

Patti Sandel: If you want purpose, if you want to be the hands and feet of Jesus, if you want to understand life in a totally different way, to know the heart of God and see the heart of God as he nudges you into those places where you normally would not choose to go, I recommend that you look at Apartment Life and the opportunity that it is. We are blessed beyond measure to be missionaries with Apartment Life.

Ken Sandel: They have to love people or it won't work. You can't do it as a job or just because to have a place to live. You have to live it. You have to enjoy. What were you doing? If you don't, the people sense it. They sense if you are not genuine. Kids, you can't fool the kids.

Jim Brangenberg: For sure not. No.

Ken Sandel: They just share it like it is.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, they do. They do. Ken and Patti Sandel, thank you so much for sharing your Apartment Life story. Thanks for being transparent with us. Thanks for being on the mission field in the quote unquote retirement years, 'cause you're in full-time ministry during your retirement years. Thank you so much for being here on iRetire4Him today.

Patti Sandel: Thank you for having us.

Ken Sandel: God bless..

Jim Brangenberg: You've been listening to iRetire4Him. I wanna make sure I say apartmentlife.org. apartmentlife.org. We'll put it in show notes. You've been listening to iRetire4Him. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose so we can say, iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him 162: I Never Got the Memo About Retirement

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years could be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days.

Martha Brangenberg: Welcome to iRetire4Him. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Check us out online at iRetire4Him.com.

Jim Brangenberg: Growing up in a junkyard teaches you a lot about life. There's always an analogy to be made about something discarded that helps bring something else back to life. Recycling is a powerful analogy. God making all things new out of something that was dead. Roy Goble grew up in his dad's junkyard and released several books over the past decade, all based on his upbringing and the incredible wisdom gleaned from his junkyard.

Today, Roy is closer to 70 than 60. Those are his words. And is still active in running Global Properties and releasing devotions and books to encourage believers with their everyday walk with Christ. We interviewed Roy on iWork4Him when his book Junkyard Wisdom was released. I decided to follow up with Roy to see what he's doing now in his quote unquote retirement years.

And lo and behold, he's not retired, but running hard and finding meaning and purpose in his late sixties. Inspiration for all of us. Roy Goble, junkyard wisdom and all, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Roy Goble: Hey, thanks for having me. It's so fun to reunite with you after a while and I know we've stayed in touch through emails and social media, but it's fun to be on this call with you. Thanks.

Jim Brangenberg: I look back, it's almost seven years since we interviewed you the last time. And so it's fun to see what's going on in your life. And I got this one question, just, we're gonna start us off this way. What's the deal? Didn't you get the memo? You're supposed to be retired and on the beach in sunny California by now. That's where you're supposed to be. What gives? Why are you still working?

Roy Goble: I didn't get the memo. (laughter) Nobody told me that. Nobody told me that. We have that conversation every now and then about slowing down, but actual retirement to me, I don't understand why. I really don't. It's not that I am a lover of work.

It's not that I just to have this passion to get out of the house in the morning and go do something. I think it's really just I have this joy in seeing beauty created. I have this joy in seeing people love each other. I have a joy in actually serving others. And that's why I work. I will admit, maybe a shift is away from quite as much drivenness as when I was young and maybe not as much ambition to achieve financially. Because I've done okay. But there is a sense in which I still want to go make a difference in the world.

Martha Brangenberg: That's so powerful. And I think it's so important for our listeners to hear that because for everyone, it looks different, but just that mindset that there's so much that God's created us to do, that we keep on being able to do it and it just may look different. We may not have the energy. We may not get up quite as early in the morning, whatever that might be for everybody listening. But just thinking about that differently.

So Roy, you run a family enterprise and an encouragement ministry that's called Junkyard Wisdom. So what are some of the miracles that you have seen and experienced recently that show you that you're not done with this current mission that God has you on?

Roy Goble: Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people ask if we're ever gonna sell the company and it's tempting sometimes, but I also have unique experiences where... we have a young woman that works for us. She is a single mom of two, and she recently remarried actually to her ex-husband, which is a fun story. And she had a new baby. But there were a lot of complications.

And I was so proud of our team. This isn't a miracle in the sense of anybody walked on water. It's a miracle in the sense that people at work surrounded her with love. They helped cover for her. We had some people say, I'll give up my vacation time if she needs extra time out. That kind of thing. And it was a joy to be her employer. It was a joy to help in the way that I could through her time of crisis.

And you mentioned the Junkyard Wisdom. I send out these daily devotions. It's for free, it's for fun. I don't make any money at this. It's just because I enjoy writing and I wrote a story about Lazarus. A woman wrote back to me and said, my son died 12 years ago. And this whole idea of coming back to life has almost haunted me.

We just had this wonderful, beautiful email exchange about her experience that way. Now again, is that a miracle? I don't know. But she was a mom who was still broken, and she had a brand new friend in me, a third party, that actually would respond to her. So it was good. I love those kinds of experiences in life.

Martha Brangenberg: And God has really used you in a unique way with your writing because you have a great sense of humor. You see the world through a different lens. I know sometimes you'll send out an email and you'll say don't get mad at me or don't whatever. I'm taking some liberties here to have some fun with the story to make it more real and really, we often don't put ourselves in Jesus's shoes or the disciple's shoes and see things from the real world perspective, like you have fun doing.

And so we'll put a link in the show notes for people to be able to find that, Roy. I just love that you are continuing to use one of the many skills that God has given you and the love of writing and the love of scripture and putting a new lens on it for people. And you get to hear these responses from people that read it and those are miracles.

Roy Goble: Thank you. Thank you. It's very kind words.

Jim Brangenberg: I can't remember the answer to this question 'cause I'm sure I asked you seven years ago. Is the junkyard still in the Goble Family Properties portfolio?

Roy Goble: No, we either developed them into industrial parks or \ we sold them as actual operating centers. That whole industry has been centralized. There's two major operators around the world. There's still a handful of small, independent people, but it's a tough business now with environmental regulations, and the cars aren't the same. They break and they're done. Back in the days they break and you could still pull a lot of parts out of 'em.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Roy Goble: So the whole industry's changed.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. But it's so cool walking through a junkyard.

Roy Goble: Yeah it is.

Martha Brangenberg: I wanna say, Jim, it was our GMC Safari that we had to go, we trying to get a seat or something off of it in a junkyard? And I remember, 'cause there were enough of them out there that you could find what you needed or whatever. Yeah, I can't imagine how much that industry has changed.

Jim Brangenberg: Hey an idea for a devotion. Speaking of Lazarus. Come up with, imagine the conversation Jesus and Lazarus had after everybody left and they're having a conversation like, yeah, I know it was really good for you to raise me from the dead, but you know how cool heaven was? (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: Why did you do that? (laughing)

Jim Brangenberg: Alright, so tell me about the Goble Family Foundation. Why did you form that? Because I see that you have Rachel, your daughter, as the executive director. That has to be exciting to have another generation involved in the mission that God gave you and your dad, and now passed on to Rachel. What's the Global Family Foundation all about?

Roy Goble: Yeah we formed that a while back and it was meant to be as just a placeholder for future activity. And I was pretty young when I formed it. But over the years it's grown and you can think of it as we tithe from our company toward it.

So the money goes in there and it's been building and growing. We're still no mega foundation by any means, but it's an opportunity to serve both our local community but also internationally. So we actually operate, it's a jungle lodge. We actually operate a jungle lodge in Belize, and all of the profits from the lodge go back into the local community in a community where people are living on about $4 a day.

We do things like that. It's fun. It's energetic. It brings new life to all of us, the entire family. And then a few times a year we get together and I have two kids and a son-in-law and they come over and my wife and I sit down and we just talk about, what are our priorities? What are our giving priorities? Everybody has very different opinions, which is actually part of the fun. Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: I love that. It's so neat. And that'll keep you busy and your grandkids busy off into the future. It's an investment in the kingdom that keeps on going and going.

Just a sideline, if you need help explaining the biblical principles of retirement, try sending the book iRetire4Him to your friends. It's all recorded, even got my voice in it, even got Martha's dad's voice in it. You could choose audio, digital, or paper copies as well as a PDF format. Go to iwork4him.com/bookstore for all the details.

IRetire4Him is a practical guide on how to get the most out of those quote unquote retirement years, living those years with purpose, whether you have money or don't have money, whether you gotta go back to work to pay your medical bills or not. It's got all kinds of ideas. Martha's Dad's stories of him living out his faith in his retirement.

So Roy, how are you preparing Global Properties for the future with or without you? Who's gonna carry on the vision and the mission when you decide, or God decides, you're done.

Roy Goble: Yeah, it's actually a funny story. It goes back a few years. We were approaching 60 years of age and we started talking about what does this look like? How do we wind this down? And neither one of my kids had any interest in going into the business.

My son's in the tech industry. My daughter was running a nonprofit that was serving at risk children in Southeast Asia. And we are like, how are we gonna do this? I'm the end, right? My kids don't wanna do this. So we came up with a very expensive plan. We put lots of accountants, lots of attorneys, lots of insight into the best way to wind this thing down, both from a tax perspective, but also how can we maximize our generosity?

And it was a 10 year plan. We said that way by the time we're 70, we can wrap this up. We were two years into that and my daughter came to me and said, I actually do have kind of an interest in joining the family business. And it was like, okay, I just wasted a lot of money.

 (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: No, 'cause it was planning.

Roy Goble: Yeah. But it was also, it was also joyful, right? To just say, absolutely. And so she will take over and we have a training program that we put her on when she first joined. And our COO was very involved in teaching her, still is actually. I work side by side with her at least one day a week.

And she comes into my office and we talk and we look at plans and we look at opportunities and talk about the challenges that she's facing. So she's growing into it and loving it, and I'm really proud of my son as well. He's applauding this, he's going, this is fantastic. I want my sister running the family business. So, they get along great and it's fun to see how this is working out.

Martha Brangenberg: I love that because I feel like it's not the first time I've heard where, when the pressure's off of a kid that says, you know what? You don't have to take over. If this isn't your thing, and she obviously got time to think and pray about all that and then be like, yes, I do wanna do this.

There's that intrinsic pressure that probably a lot of kids put on themselves without knowing that they are. Or maybe , just everybody around you assumes that one of the kids is gonna take over. And to see that decision be a real decision as opposed to an obligation probably thrills your soul because, you know, she's in it for the right reason.

I think that there's a lot of people that may be in that phase of life as they're thinking about the next and looking at what that might be and also looking for what those opportunities are, so just just an encouragement to everybody listening that everybody's plan might look a little different, but God's got it.

Jim Brangenberg: Might be less expensive.

Martha Brangenberg: Might be less, you might spend less time with lawyers. (chuckles)

Jim Brangenberg: There's no way that God had you do that. There's has to be something in there that you absolutely needed to go through in order to be prepared for where you're at today. There's no way that was a waste of money, 'cause you sound like you're a pretty good steward of money.

Roy Goble: Yeah, I actually, you're absolutely right. And if we had a lot more time, I could explain all the intricacies of that, but you're absolutely right. We learned a lot in the process and we're in a better place now. And Martha, you said something about my daughter. I gotta tell you one quick story. And that is when she was in college, she was a business major.

And we thought, okay, she's gonna either go on to get her MBA or she's gonna come work. She actually had a really great internship signed up with a design company, and two months before graduation, she came to us and said, I don't think I'm on the right track. I want to go into ministry. And she ended up going to seminary at Fuller Seminary and getting her master's in that, and we're like, wait a minute. We had this plan. And so I've done this twice now with her.

Jim Brangenberg: But how much better, Roy, that she's equipped because she went to Fuller, which they've got a whole center on that it mixes business and ministry at the same time. Mark Roberts is in charge of that. I can't think of the name of the center right now at Fuller.

Roy Goble: Yeah, the De Pree Center. For Faith and Work.

Jim Brangenberg: That's it.

Roy Goble: And the current head of it is Michaela Long, who actually was Rachel's classmate at Fuller.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow. So would you look it? She's better equipped, because she went to seminary and got that MBA and MDiv at the same time, to run your organization. 'cause you run your heart, your business from a heart of ministry. So she's better equipped. That's a great story.

Roy Goble: My father used to say we want to be a for-profit ministry.

Jim Brangenberg: We call that a biznistry.

Martha Brangenberg: Amen.

Roy Goble: Yeah. And he was saying that in the fifties, long before this movement.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. He was running alone there. 'cause Stanley Tam didn't even come up with that idea until the early sixties.

Martha Brangenberg: That's so fabulous. And what a wonderful legacy for your family and that it's looked different for every generation and yet is still on that same trajectory. So Roy, I wanna talk about the peer pressure that you might get from people, your age, family, friends, or whatever that are, that are saying, Hey, the beach is great. Why not just, be done with that work stuff? What kind of conversations do you have with people about that?

Roy Goble: Yeah, I do get that where people come and say, why are you still working? And over and over again, the people that ask me that didn't actually enjoy what they did in their vocation.

Martha Brangenberg: Oh, interesting.

Roy Goble: It's not always that's the case. But it's often that, and they just look at me and go, how in the world do you still go to work every day? Why do you go to the office every day? And I go, because I find joy in it. I find actual love in it, love for my neighbor, love for God.

It exists in that setting. They didn't have that. And so when they say that to me, go to the beach or go on cruises or play golf every day, whatever. To me that's yeah, I could probably do a little more of that, but that's not what I want my for life.

Jim Brangenberg: Dion called right before the show and said, could you please help Roy to understand we could book a few more vacations a year? (laughter) Because we're not getting any younger. That's what she said about you, of course.

Roy Goble: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: But the point is that, and we write about that in our book. And I'm not trying to do that just to plug our book, but why not buy a copy of iRetire4Him, for all of your friends, Roy?

Because the point is, fine, retire from your job that you've just done because you needed a job. Go find some work that brings fulfillment, whether it's a volunteer position, a paid position, go do something you love. 'Cause my father-in-law who's really great at saying this, if you get a job you love, you'll never go to work a day in your life.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: And that is true.

Martha Brangenberg: And Jim, you often talk about it o n iRetire4Him that it's not that we're anti leisure. It's not that we are against having fun and maybe slowing down and not getting a paycheck for the work that you're doing, but everything you do in your life, God calls us to be intentional, to be on mission.

If you are on the golf course and you get paired with somebody in a golf cart that you don't know, what's the conversation you're having? Are you just talking about the weather or are you talking about deeper?

Jim Brangenberg: They're talking about the placement of the ball. (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: Okay. But in between the placement of the ball, everything can lead to the Lord in one way or another. And we just wanna encourage that no matter how we're spending our time, that there is intention and love of the Lord that really oozes out of the conversation.

Jim Brangenberg: All right. Roy, you're in the final quarter of life, assuming you don't live past a hundred.

Roy Goble: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: What is God showing you about how he will use what he's already given you, what he's placed in you to bless others in your final race to the finish?

Roy Goble: Yeah. There's a lot of different streams of my life that have all kind of begun to dovetail in that answer. And one of 'em actually was that whole process of estate planning and working through how are we gonna sell this company? Because some of the things that came out of it was how to maximize generosity in the midst of it.

And so we want to build up our family foundation, but even beyond that, we wanna move more and more towards generosity. Another stream that keeps coming up is we became grandparents recently, and I'll tell you what, you bounce your grandchild on your knee and you have a totally different reaction than when you did the same with your own child.

And I realized that with my child, I wanted to protect, I wanted to prepare. I wanted to give them a better life off in the future. I want all those things for my grandchild, of course. But when you're holding your grandchild, all you're really thinking about is the present. It's that moment. It's that moment of joy and of love, and I want my last quarter to be focused more on the present, more in that joy of love. That's the other stream that's come through, and it's actually surprised me.

I don't think anybody in the first 30 or 40 years of my career would say, oh yeah, Roy, he's a really loving person. But I want to be, and I want my work, my writing, our investments, our generosity, to all revolve around this idea of - it's a simple mandate. Love each other. Love your neighbor. And love God. And if I can stick to that, then the rest is details.

Martha Brangenberg: Wow. That's powerful. Love it. Thank you for sharing that.

Okay, final words to everybody that's listening that might be struggling with that decision to continue working or starting something new or searching for seashells on the beach. And listen, I have glass jars full of seashells. I have nothing against seashells, so I find calm and peace at the ocean.

But any final words of wisdom, junkyard wisdom or otherwise, that you can share with our listeners?

Roy Goble: Yeah. You have an opportunity, you've prepared your whole life for this, and maybe you have an opportunity to pursue your dreams. Maybe you have an opportunity to try something new. All of those things can be equally true. There's a life mantra that I have, and that is that it's not my job to make you like me. It's my job to figure out how to love you. And if you think about that in your retirement, you just say, okay I'm done putting on airs. I'm done putting on a show for people. I'm just gonna be the genuine me, but the genuine me is gonna be focused on how to love you. I think that would be just a wonderful way to spend your last quarter.

Jim Brangenberg: Those are great words. Wow. Okay. Just settle right in on that. Roy Goble, thanks so much for being on iRetire4Him. That was like a sermon, that last sentence was great

i'm in the middle of something in my own life and that is a great reminder, a very great reminder, Roy. Thanks for being with us today.

Roy Goble: It's an honor. Thank you.

Jim Brangenberg: You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lies to be full of meaning and purpose, so we can say, iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 161: Why I'm Running for Mayor... And Why Maybe You Should Too

Jim Brangenberg: This is a joint release iWork4Him, iRetire4Him show, where faith meets work and retirement and believers unleash their calling on their community and their workplace. Before I get started today, let me encourage you to talk with our sponsors.

Safernet.com. If you ever wonder who's watching you on your computer, who's trying to invade your computer, you need to check out SafeNet. They've been a sponsor of ours for a number of years now because their VPN, it keeps you safe even when you're using public wifi. But at the same time, they can give you web filters, an internet portal. You could track where your employees are going and where they shouldn't go.

At the same time they give you antivirus and all the things you need to operate a safe internet environment in your office or in your home. Check 'em out online, safernet.com. And also check out the US Christian Chamber. If you're operating in the marketplace, there's a Christian Chamber near you. Check out the US Christian chamber at uschristianchamber.com.

And finally, if you're using a cell phone, where does your cell phone company send their profits? Patriot Mobile's the one that we use. Faith, family, and Freedom. When they're making money and they're giving it away, they're giving it away to people that I like, that support the things that I support. Check 'em out online, patriotmobile.com/iWork4Him.

Like I said, this is a joint iWork4Him, iRetire4Him show, because the topic for today's show applies to everybody listening, whether you're still working or whether you've quote unquote retired, which we've talked about a million times, is not a real thing. It's the American dream of retirement, but it's not a biblical thing. So if you're listening to this show, you've heard me rant and rave about that before.

So let me jump in. For some of you, this podcast has been part of your listening challenge for the last 13 years. We've talked with Jesus followers in so many different places, jobs all across the world and across the country, and sometimes even in their elected offices. We've joked about the fact that growing up I always wanted to run for Senate when my kids were grown and gone.

Then I realized that people in politics, Jesus followers, got changed in the process. They also had to compromise to get things done. Number one, I only wanna change those things in me that aren't like Jesus. And number two, I don't wanna be known for compromise. Jesus got his mission done and never compromised. There was pressure all the time for him to compromise, but he never did. I wanna be like Jesus, therefore get my mission from God and stay on that mission. No compromise. So what's the reason for this rant?

I'm running for mayor of my small town here in Missouri, and it's time to put all of the above to the test. I grew up in an era where Christians were told to stay outta government and stay outta politics. They were dirty places, so all of us did just that and look what we got. A nation that spits in the face of God, denies his very existence through our laws and actions and judicial proclamations, and leaders that not only completely, that are completely compromised, but they celebrate that they're completely compromised, and they're willing to change the minute the wind changes in order to please some lobbyist or to make an extra million dollars here or there.

It is time for followers of Jesus to get into the fray and run for local, county, state, and national office. And don't complain to me about how bad things are if you're not willing to be part of the change. Let's remind everyone that if we're gonna complain, we need to be part of the solution. So let's remind you about something I say on the show all the time. I say on the show all the time: as a Jesus follower, everything about you should be changing and everyone around you should be benefiting from your faith, whether they believe in Jesus or not.

Let's break that down again. As a follower of Jesus, everything about you should be changing. It's the process our heavenly Father uses to shape us, to look and act more like his son Jesus. And secondly, everyone around us should be benefiting from our faith, whether they believe in Jesus or not. So the question you have to ask yourself, is my community benefiting from my faith in Jesus? And if it's not their issue, it's my issue.

I'm running for mayor because my community needs me. They need my leadership skills, my connection skills, my management skills, my sales skills. My community needs to flourish once more like it used to. It needs to be well run, fiduciarily responsible with taxpayer's cash.

I wanna encourage the Jesus follower in his town to be good neighbors, me loving on them to love on others, to be an example. So what led to this decision for me to run for mayor? Let me digress for a minute to tell you a little bit of that story.

We thought we were gonna live the rest of our lives out in Florida. We lived there for 20 years, and then our daughter marries a boy from this town. We end up buying a house in this town next to our daughter, halfway in between our aging parents, between Fort Myers and between Tucson, Arizona. And we decided to buy this house and fix it up. And in the summer of 22, we came here for a sabbatical to give ourselves a break after being on the air for 10 years.

And we were gonna take a summer off sabbatical, build a deck, and just relax. And God says, as my father, I think you're supposed to stay there and settle. If we were gonna settle here in Marionville, Missouri, we needed a place to do iWork4Him, iRetire4Him, and all the other podcasts that we do. So we needed an office, which ended up, we ended up buying what's called the Old Library in downtown Marionville, Missouri. We didn't buy it because everybody was endeared to that building 'cause it was the old library. We bought it because it was a building that was in decent enough shape that could be rehabilitated into good shape and put to use for iWork4Him.

At the same time, we decided to make it available to four other businesses that could have offices in our building. It put us downtown. And in that first year of rehabilitating this building where I'm recording right now - no, doesn't look like my background. I wish I had a really great background that looked like that, but I don't- people came to meet us.

People were so excited to see a building come back to life. People stopped in to talk to us and we got connected with the business community and eventually when the building was done, we started gathering the local business community together. We started getting involved in meetings. I got involved in the Lions Club, the local fire department as a chaplain.

We heard from the public all the time about things that Marionville needed, and they saw that we really cared because we fixed up a building they all loved, the old library, which we now call Central Place. The bottom line, God gave us influence in a small town we didn't deserve. We didn't earn it, but he endowed us with unmerited favor.

With so many people so quickly, it was undeniable that this influence should be used to help our city. Not to put a title on by my name, but to help this great city we live within. So what was I to do? Push back from the shadows or get into the limelight and fight the enemy of this city in broad daylight?

The enemy is not the person I'm running against but the enemy of our souls who loves to see people perish and struggle living in pain without purpose and sometimes even in poverty. I'm running for mayor because Martha and I prayed about it for a whole year and on registration day, God said, yes, you can run.

Now, i'm not running unopposed, but this election isn't about me. It's about the people of this town and as a Jesus follower running for office, I am not to slander or talk down about my opponent. She's a creation of Almighty God, created in his image. I don't have to agree with her, but I must love her, pray for her, and show her proper respect.

I'm running for mayor because people on the streets ask me to lead and to love and to listen and to launch this city back on a trajectory of success. I'm running for mayor because this world needs biblical leadership by Jesus followers who have learned to love God and love their neighbors and their enemies and pray for those who persecute them.

I'm running for mayor because I can't ask you to do something for your city, your school, your county, your state, or your country if I'm not willing to do the same. Am I experienced at running a city? No, but I am an expert at cleaning up messes and I've run a lot of things, a lot of businesses. And cities are like businesses. They generate the revenue from businesses who sell things and from paying property taxes.

I can learn how to be an excellent mayor and I don't have to do it alone, 'cause many in this community have never been asked to help or serve, and I plan on asking 'em. Am I excited to have people criticize me? No. But I'm not likely to get impaled on a cross, so anything less then that is much less than Jesus did for me and my community already. And am I gonna be a perfect leader? I'm sure I'm gonna make mistakes, but I'll admit them and I'll move on and I'll surround myself with people who would keep me on the straight and narrow and also people who pray for me daily.

I'm running for mayor, and now I'm asking you to look at how you can impact your community too. Ministry is messy and this mayoral position will be messy, but Jesus is the king of cleaning up messes. He's cleaning me up every day. He's cleaning you up every day, and he can do it in our communities too.

You have things going on in your community that are driving you nuts. Maybe it's your HOA if you live in Florida. My HOA drove me nuts all the time until Martha became president. What are you gonna do about these things that are driving you nuts? Maybe it's in your community, your county, your city, your state. Are you gonna complain? Are you gonna gossip? Are you gonna post things on Facebook? Or are you gonna respond to the clarion cry of your community for godly based servant leadership?

Whether you're working or whether you're retired, your community needs you to rise up and lead in love. Some of you who are listening today are called to serve on your local school board, your city council, your county commissioners, maybe your state senate, house, or assembly. Some of you are called to be a mayor, a governor, a sheriff. Some of you may be called to run through judicial office. Some of you don't realize that you don't have to be a lawyer to be a judge if it's an elected position.

Some of you are called to our nation's capital to run for the house or the Senate. Some of you may even have a presidential call in your lives. But most of you are going, now that's for them, not for me. But we've been doing that as believers in this country for the last 70 years. And guess what? It doesn't work. Our country needs us. Our country needs the solutions that come from the heart of God, where it puts people first - loving God and loving people. That trickles down to solve the problems of community.

We've thrown billions and trillions at poverty in this country. Guess what? The church has a solution. It's a biblical solution. It just comes down to are you willing and will you be obedient when God calls you to serve the people that you work alongside, live alongside, dwell in a community with? Are you willing to say, okay, Lord, I'm tired of complaining. I'm willing to be part of the solution.

We need to remember that your workplace and my workplace, it's my mission field. What does that workplace look like for you? For me, in 2026 to 2028, I hope to serve as an unpaid mayor of a town of 2,500 people in southwest Missouri. That's right, I said unpaid, but I'm looking forward to it. I'm looking forward to seeing a town rally around itself, putting arms around each other, holding hands, and joining in, making their town great again.

Are you willing to ask God if it's time for you to run for Office too? I hope the answer is yes. I'm Jim Brangenberg. I'm running for mayor and it's because of this work on iWork4Him that I'm running for mayor. I know that I can make a difference 'cause I've learned that no matter where I am, everybody around me should be benefiting from my faith, whether they believe in Jesus or not.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. I'm a Christ follower. My workplace, it's my mission field, and my workplace might be the mayoral spot in our town, but ultimately, no matter what I'm doing, iWork4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 160: Ask More. Lead Better.

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days.

Martha Brangenberg: Welcome to iRetire4Him. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Check us out online at iRetire4Him.com.

Jim Brangenberg: When I grow up I'll learn to ask more questions and do less telling. I love to tell, but asking question actually reveals more about something or someone or anything. So how do you become an expert at asking questions? How do you become an expert at leading with questions? I have no idea because I'm not good at it at all. But Bob Tiede is awesome at it.

In fact, for decades he's been writing about it, talking about it, posting about it. In fact, at 63, he started capturing leadership lessons through questions, and now 13 years later has gathered over 1300 blogs. Now, Bob has his favorites and 39 of 'em are in his latest book, Success Unlocked. When will Bob slow down? I don't know, but he's an inspiration to all of us on what it looks like to live out our faith in our quote unquote retirement years. Bob Tiede has appeared many times on iWork4Him, so we asked him this time for an update right here on iRetire4Him. Bob Tiede, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Bob Tiede: Delighted to be with both of you.

Jim Brangenberg: Bob, most everyone your age is retired and on a permanent vacation. Why not you?

Bob Tiede: Jim, as I read the scriptures - first of all, coming up in April, I'll turn 77, and by my calculations, that means I only have three years left of development before God gives me the assignment for which I was born. As I read the scriptures, it was at 80 that Moses, Joshua, and Caleb got their assignments. Now they got to do some great things leading up to that, but it was to get 'em ready for that assignment. And then they each gave it 30 to 40 years. So Jim and Martha, I have just figured out my retirement date.

My birthday's April 17th, 1949, so on April 17th, 2069, I'll be 120 and that'll be my retirement date. But I'm not fully committing to it. We'll have to see how I'm doing then.

 (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: It depends on whether you speak to the rock or throw a stick at the rock. I believe that was some of the determining factors right there. (chuckling)

Yeah, it's incredible when you read those stories and Caleb was just as strong and as vibrant as he was when he was 40. And then he takes the upper falls and says, now I'm going for the lower falls too. Let's do it.

Bob Tiede: Amen.

Martha Brangenberg: I love the jest behind your conversation, and I hope it actually puts people to open up their Bible and look at the scripture a little bit more closely, Bob, because that's really what you're referring to is the biblical examples that we've been given in our life that we are encouraged to follow and how so many of us like to skip over them when they're not real convenient.

Jim Brangenberg: What Al Gore calls an inconvenient truth.

Martha Brangenberg: That's exactly right. Okay, so Jim alluded to it in the introduction, Bob, but you started blogging over 13 years ago. Why did you do that? What did you observe that urged you to get started with that?

Bob Tiede: One of my colleagues had started a blog, and I ran into her at our headquarters, and her name's Andrea. I said, Andrea, you started a blog. And she said, Bob, you need to start a blog. And I said, why would I wanna do that? And she said let's sit down. So we sat down for a few minutes and she said, Bob, I know you're 60 something, which I was then, and she said, you might know I'm 50 something. And these emerging leaders we're trying to develop, Bob, their average age is about 28. Bob, do you know that they speak another language?

And I looked at her a little bewildered because they were primarily an American audience who I thought spoke English. She said, Bob, they also speak social media. And when they politely inquire, Hey Bob, are you on LinkedIn? Twitter? Facebook, Instagram, and that 60 something leader said, no, no one needs to know what I'm having for dinner, stereotyping social media.

She said, Bob, our staff are polite. They probably won't say anything, but she said, I fear they're walking away thinking, I hear old Bob. I hear old Andrea, did some good things in their day, but it's like that's no longer relevant. That little conversation convinced me. And so I jumped into social media, into blogging, really just thinking it'll help me learn this other language called the language of social media.

Jim Brangenberg: So she guilted you into it. I like it. (laughter) And everybody listening that's 55 plus has all had to make that, am I gonna embrace or am I gonna take the race and run away? My dad retired 35 years ago because he didn't wanna learn computers. Now today, if you don't embrace social media, you really can't succeed as a business owner, period. End a story.

And it can't just be Facebook. If you wanna reach people under 50, you gotta go onto Instagram and Snapchat and all these other things that I have no idea what they are. So Bob, what's the story behind Leading with Questions? Why? The focus on leading with questions? And you got all kinds of books and I've read almost every one of them - about questions. You just released your latest book, Success Unlocked, the Transformative Power of Questions. Where did this come from?

Bob Tiede: I'm so glad you asked. Whenever I speak, I always start with a confession. And my confession is, for most of my Cru career, I was a benevolent dictator. I thought the job of a leader was to figure out what needs to be done, and I said benevolent with please and thank you. Then ask your staff or tell your staff, but it's, Martha, would you please do this? And when Martha did it, thank you, Martha, when Jim did it. Thank you, Jim. At a staff meeting. Jim, stand up. You all need to hear what Jim did.

But still, the paradigm was a leader needs to figure it out and then kindly and with appreciation, tell your staff what to do. Now like you, I love books. I just happen to have right here in my hand, the first edition. This is the actual book I bought. I was already on the US Leadership Development Team and this first edition of Leading with Questions filled with stories from leaders literally around the globe. And as I read it I had only one question: why hasn't anyone shared this paradigm of leadership with me?

I mean, it like instant made sense. And already on the leadership development team, I began to teach out of it and I found the response of other staff was just like mine. They thought the job of a leader was to tell people what to do and again, with good hearts, but when they saw leading with questions, it was like, oh my gosh, how did we miss it? And then another book, I didn't write it, but I compiled it: 340 Questions Jesus Asked. And we could spend a whole session on that. But just think about it for a moment.

Did Jesus want to see lives changed? Of course, but did he know that there was a greater likelihood of a life being changed if he asked them a question - let me ask you - and they answered his question and their answer to his question created the change because they thought it was their idea? And when a leader begins to understand, wait a minute. No, I'm not Jesus. But if I will seek to communicate the way he did, I could take advantage of how he wired people and that we have a greater likelihood of actually seeing change in people by asking a question.

But also, Jim and Martha, I ask people this all the time, how have you felt whenever you've had a leader, somebody you report to, ask you, Martha, what do you think we ought to do here? How did that make you feel?

Martha Brangenberg: Oh, amazing. Valuable. Like I maybe had something to give back and to offer to the conversation.

Bob Tiede: And without saying, "Martha, I value you." Just asking and listening communicated that. And then if a leader does that with his or her team, what are the chances they're gonna hear ideas better than what they were thinking?

Jim Brangenberg: Okay, I love this, but when I had leaders ask me questions, I was always thinking I gotta give him the answer he wants or she wants, so I don't get in trouble. But I know that wasn't always the case, but actually most leaders back in the seventies and eighties, that is exactly what they wanted. They wanted their answer, but they were asking it sarcastically.

But I love this approach and I'm trying to remember, wasn't it was one in one of the earlier books that you wrote, and it might be in the Great Leaders Ask Questions, the blue one over your right shoulder. Was it that you were an unrepentant teller or you were a reformed teller or something? You wrote something there that I've never forgotten and it, do you remember what you said?

Bob Tiede: Not sure, but one of the things I say all the time about that is that if you can imagine your right arm to be your telling arm, most of us are good to go. If you can imagine your left arm to be your asking arm, most of us would say it doesn't have equal strength.

And the truth is, most of us are good at telling, but we need to develop asking so that we could have equal strength. And it's not that a leader never tells, but a wise leader knows when to tell, but when it would be better to ask. And just like Martha said, if asked, feeling valuable, if you ask, let me go one more step. Martha, not only what you just shared, your idea, but I say, Martha, would you be willing to lead our team in executing on that? Now, Martha, how hard will you work?

Martha Brangenberg: Very hard.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah.

Martha Brangenberg: Yes.

Bob Tiede: Whose idea are you executing?

Martha Brangenberg: What I think is my own.

Bob Tiede: Yeah. Versus thinking, bob's the boss. He signs the paychecks. I better do what he wants, but I really don't think that's a very good idea. It doesn't have the same heart for execution as, "wow, love your idea, Martha. And let's go with that."

Jim Brangenberg: And we're gonna get into this a little deeper because we're talking about - okay that's the practical and leadership in an organization where we're getting paid. But most of our listenership today is, they're not getting paid. But yet, I think this approach has a powerful application for retirees. But before we do that, I wanna make sure we draw everybody's attention because we're talking about questions. Here's a question for our listeners. What do other people your age need that you already have?

The answer is simple. They need to understand the retirement calling. It's that simple. Get 'em a copy of iRetire4Him: Unlock God's Purpose for Your Retirement in our bookstore online or on Amazon. IWork4Him.com/bookstore. And if you order it soon and you do it off the website, we will autograph it. If you do it off the website, before we send it out, we'll autograph it for you. That'll make it so much more valuable.

Martha Brangenberg: I wanna ask a question right now.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. Ask a question.

Martha Brangenberg: Oh, I was just gonna to be funny like, Jim, do you find the value in you signing the book?

 (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: It makes me feel better that somebody wants to get my signature. I could be famous one day. I could be the mayor of my town. You never know.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay. So there's so many things I love about this conversation, Bob, and I will tell people right now, 'cause this is just a comment I have learned over the years from you is you send out amazing emails about things like questions to ask at the Thanksgiving dinner table, questions to ask at Christmas, things that we can apply not just in the work environment but in our home. And I think that's why this conversation is so relevant to the iRetire4Him Crowd because there's so much value that comes to the table from those that are a little further ahead of us in life.

Jim Brangenberg: We call them chronologically superior.

Martha Brangenberg: We do. And so I just hope the listeners are listening into this because this is key, but I'm very curious if you see the next generation actually seeking the wisdom of your generation. What are you seeing happening between the generations?

Bob Tiede: Martha and Jim, quick answer is absolutely. But maybe not in the way in which you think.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay.

Bob Tiede: And when I say in general, I'm not really saying the way Jim and Martha think, but I'm saying the way most 70 year olds might think, and that is, we might think, Hey, they're gonna want to have all our wisdom. They do, but they actually don't want us to sit 'em down and say, Hey, let me tell you everything you need to know.

From that, they'll back away from that. You'll have coffee once and they won't want to have coffee again. But when you meet with them and you say, tell me your story and you ask follow up questions. Now, how'd you get started in that? Say more about that. And you actually let them do 80% of the talking- here's what's fascinating. Now this is actually true.

Anytime we meet a new person, if we meet a new person and I do 80% of the talking, they may smile, they may nod their head. I may think they're really enjoying this, but inside they may well be thinking, what a windbag. But if I meet a new person and I ask them questions and let them do 80% of the talking, they will almost always trust me because they felt heard. They felt, wow, this person's interested in me.

And so the thing that those of us that God's allowed to live to 60 and 70 and beyond, the key in relating to this generation is to ask them questions and listen to their answers and follow up. Now, here's something fascinating that happens. I also say that we frequently, we play ping pong with questions. I see you " the morning. I say, good morning, Martha. How are you? What are you likely to say?

Martha Brangenberg: Oh, I'm doing fine. (chuckling)

Bob Tiede: What question will you likely ask me then?

Martha Brangenberg: How are you?

Bob Tiede: Yes. Jim, if you and I were having lunch somewhere and I just, Hey Jim, I'm curious, what are some of your favorite places for you and Martha to go eat? You're gonna answer me and I'll say, oh, tell me more about that place. And, what else is on the menu? What's the average dinner cost there? And some follow up. But when we're done, what are you likely to ask me?

Jim Brangenberg: Whew. Boy, that's a tough one. 'cause I'm a good question asker now. I would say, I'm gonna ask you where do you take your bride out? Do you guys go out, still have date night, even as old as you are? Do you guys still have dinner out? (laughing)

Bob Tiede: Amen. Yes. My point there is we frequently will ask the same question. So when you're meeting with that 20-year-old, 30-year-old, and you're asking about their career and what they're learning and you're listening to them. Don't be surprised then if they say, Jim, tell me about you. What was your first job? And now it becomes a conversation, not us dumping all our knowledge on them, expecting them to take notes, but a conversation where now they're returning the favor by drawing it out.

I also find that the 20-30 year olds, they're looking for a relationship. And no way are we there to replace their parents, okay? But at the same time, I find that so many of them actually come from broken homes. They didn't actually have a dad in their life in the same way that we did. And it's not that they're looking for us to be the replacement dad, but they really enjoy having a relationship with a 60, 70, 80-year-old that shows interest in that.

And so at any rate that yes, they want a relationship with us, but if you want to have that relationship, don't feel like you can just sit 'em down and tell 'em what to do. Sit down and ask them about themselves. Draw them out.

Jim Brangenberg: Bob, how do you make sure that you are available, accessible to those next generations? You're doing your blog, but where do you go to make sure you are physically available for those people?

Bob Tiede: Jim, something that, that I love to do is I love to have breakfast, lunch, and coffee with people. And so when I meet a young person, I'm saying relative to me, a 20, 30, 40-year-old, and we meet somewhere, I'll frequently say, wow, I'd love to have lunch with you. I'd love to have breakfast. I'd love to hear more of your story.

And by just asking that, usually it's sure, let's pull out our schedules and we find the time, and then when we get together, I'm following that pattern of, wow, so glad we could meet. I'd love to hear your story. And we go down that path and I'll ask him some more.

Another favorite question I like to ask is, what would you say are the three to four events that have most shaped who you are today? And that has become a favorite question. It is one of those questions that they can answer however they want. Now I'm surprised sometimes that they actually include painful things. But they didn't have to. I didn't ask 'em to share something painful. They chose, in other words, I, when they do.

I feel like, wow, trust is already here, that they feel that. But just their answers to the three or four things will quickly tell you a lot about their upbringing, their experiences, what's exciting to 'em, that kind of thing.

Martha Brangenberg: Oh, that's so good. I think making ourselves available to people in whatever avenue the conversation may lead really is huge. And whether it is through meals or coffee or just extra time in a hallway with someone, but showing an interest in them that is really genuine.

And I believe that your question asking is such a huge part of that because I think a lot of us are guilty of starting to just give our life history to people and if we can relate and hear what other people are saying, that's huge. Okay, so let's talk about your new book. Success Unlocked. And as Jim also said in the in the introduction, he talked about the fact that you took some of the blogs that you have written in the past and you compiled - was it the most popular or your most favorite? How did you come up with them and then maybe share a couple of them with us?

Bob Tiede: Yeah, in the 13 years, my blog has been out there, we've had over 1300 posts.

Martha Brangenberg: Wow.

Bob Tiede: And we just used some of our analytics to identify - and you can only put so much in a book. We ended up identifying the 39 most popular out of 1300, and that's what's in here.

Now also, just for your listeners to know, I'm much more a curator than an originator. Of those 39, only two of them are authored by me. 37 of 'em are authored by others, and that's been true of my blog. And the result is we get to learn from great leaders, literally from around the globe, about leading with questions. If it was limited to just what Bob knows, it would be very little. But now we have all this, some of my favorites.

I don't know if our listeners know the name Joel Manby. He, for years, was the CEO of Herschend Entertainment, which has like Dollywood and a number of things. Then he got a job being the CEO of SeaWorld.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah.

Bob Tiede: But he wrote a fabulous book. And in that book he shares the story going way back to I think about sixth grade. And his teacher, her name was Ms. Prey, she asked for a meeting with his mother and him. And so they have this teacher meeting. And it starts with Joel's a very good student. He's actually the brightest student in our class. Has the highest grades, and he's sitting there thinking, wow, this is really great.

But then she said, but you, Mrs. Manby, I wanted to have this meeting with you because I wanted you to hear what I want to share with Joel next. And she said, Joel, you are an incredible leader, but I consistently see you taking over. In other words, you're in a group, somebody else is leading, and you quickly lead. And Joel, if you don't learn to begin to value other people, you'll never become the leader you could be. He shares that story. It's an incredible story. And then there's another story.

Paul Smith, his son is on the basketball team, high school basketball team. And the other team members are in their house and he's overhearing a conversation, and they're all making fun of a girl at school. And Paul walks in and he discovers the girl they're making fun of is confined to a wheelchair and blind, and he, in a proper way, lets his son and all of them have it.

I am so disappointed. You guys are supposed to be leaders at school. The next day he walked in unannounced noon, cafeteria time, and, found his son and the basketball team and said, guys, come with me. Where's Jenny? Jenny's by a table all by herself. There's no one eating. And he goes over and he taps her and she's scared at first but sits down and introduces himself and begins to ask her some questions.

And the final question was about her dreams. And she said that she loves to go to the basketball games and just hear the crowd, and she would love to be cheerleader. Wow. The boys listening to this are just astonished. And as the rest of that story is told, yes, Jenny becomes a cheerleader in her wheelchair and Jenny's table becomes the most popular table at that school, all because of a dad who walked in and demonstrated asking Jenny some questions and listening and helping his son and his teammates discover, Hey, that's a real person. She's got feelings. She has dreams. And when they begin to hear it, they realized how shallow they were, how wrong they were.

But it's just, it's an incredible story and, again, so many different posts in the top 39. I love every one of 'em.

Jim Brangenberg: Bob, as we close out to, I appreciate you sharing that. The book is great. I totally recommend everybody get a copy of Success Unlocked. We'll have a link for it in the show notes for you able to get to it.

There's a lot of people out there that are going ? He's just wrote another book. Why doesn't he learn to go onto the beach and relax? Just encourage those that are listening today that believed before they listened to today's show that the American dream of retirement was real, was biblical, and you figured out that it isn't, and here's what they're missing.

Bob Tiede: I recently heard John Maxwell, he was saying, people ask him when he is gonna retire? And he said I recently heard that retirement means you can do whatever you want, whenever you want to do it. And by that definition, I'm retired. And I thought, so am I by that definition because I am doing what I wanna do when I want to do it.

And we talked earlier before we started the show that, only perhaps fans of the University of Tennessee like to be called volunteers, but I love to call people that come along, self-funded staff members. And you had another term, Jim.

Jim Brangenberg: Fully funded missionaries.

Bob Tiede: Yes. And there are so many opportunities. My lifelong mentor Bob said he actually doesn't know any happy retired folks, if by retirement you mean do nothing. He said the happy ones, yeah, they may have retired from their full-time role at a company, but they're still committed somewhere. They still show up. They still know they're making a difference.

No, they don't have to punch the clock eight to five, five days a week 52 or 50 weeks out of the year. There's flexibility, but there's somewhere where they know they've committed to, they show up, they make a difference. Jim and Martha, I actually have an invitation I'd love to extend.

My day job with CRU. I'm still full-time, 54 years with Campus Crusade for Christ, now called CRU, and I recruit outstanding leaders from outside of CRU and many of them are recent retirees and they commit to coaching a CRU leader every other week for two years. And it's been a game changer for both our coaches and our CRU leaders.

Now we will train you, so if you say I don't know how to coach, not a problem, if you have a willingness to be trained. But if you'll reach out to me, I'd love to have a conversation with you if the possibility of coaching a CRU leader is something and again, we're talking about one hour every other week, not a full-time, new role for you, but a way to make a difference.

Jim Brangenberg: How are they getting ahold of you? Bob?

Bob Tiede: Best way is to email me bob.tiede@cru.org. You'll put it in the notes. So rather than me spelling it out here, look in the notes. And you'll find how to spell my name and the email address and just reach out, say, tell me more about this coaching thing. And I'll respond to say, let's find a time to talk.

Jim Brangenberg: No, I thought you'd respond, "can we find a time to talk?" (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: You've gotta ask a question and ask a question, so yes. That's fabulous.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow. Bob, you missed a chance there.

Bob Tiede: I'm still learning. (chuckling)

Martha Brangenberg: I love that because one of the things we know to be true, and you just reiterated it, is that using the life experiences that God has given us and encouraging future leaders is a way to really be invigorated yourself and to know that you're giving back in such a powerful way.

And I love the fact that CRU is so intentional about helping their leaders be the best that they can be. So Bob, thank you for posing that offer out there. We'll make sure all that information is in the show notes for our listeners, and I'm excited to hear if anybody takes you up on it.

Bob Tiede: Wow. Thank you.

Jim Brangenberg: And thank you Bob Tiede for being on iRetire4Him today. Appreciate it. It's always great keeping our friendship up. So grateful for your example. We hope that in 17 years when we get to 77 - 17 and a half years - we are equally as excited about everything we're doing.

Martha and I are working on our 25 year plan. What does it look like to get to 85? You're working in the 120 plan, so we're in the same range, but Bob Tiede, thank you very much.

Martha Brangenberg: Yes.

Bob Tiede: My pleasure.

Jim Brangenberg: You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose, so we can say, iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 159: Old People Know Stuff

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years could be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days.

Martha Brangenberg: Welcome to iRetire4Him.We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brandenburg. Check us out online at iRetire4Him.com.

Jim Brangenberg: For over 13 years we've been collecting the stories of men and women living out their faith in Jesus in their work, at home, and in retirement. We've been doing it long enough that some of our guests have moved from from the pre-retirement years into living into their retirement years, but you've guessed it. Any friend of iWork4Him isn't checking out and sitting on a sandy beach sipping margaritas and living a perpetual vacation. Friends of ours know that our retirement years are just a continuation of our life and an opportunity to live out our faith as we go.

Rhonda Stoppe has been on iWork4Him several times, even one time with her local church pastor husband, as we talked about their amazing book, The Marriage Mentor. Today, Rhonda joins us to talk about two major things. One, living out a vibrant marriage in retirement, and two, talking about her nearly new podcast, Old Ladies Know Stuff. Rhonda Stoppe, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Rhonda Stoppe: Thanks. It's so fun to be with you guys again.

Jim Brangenberg: We're glad to have you.

Martha Brangenberg: It's good to sit and hang out with you for a little bit and let the iRetire4Him crowd get to know you and your heart because I think it's so powerful. So you aren't even qualified to be on this podcast quite yet, age-wise. We won't get into too many specifics, but I know you have the Old Ladies podcast, but how old do you have to be to be an old lady? (laughter) What's so funny?

Jim Brangenberg: The podcast Old Ladies Know Stuff, but you call yourself an old lady, Rhonda. When I see you, I don't see old lady, but, all right. How old do you have to be an old lady?

Rhonda Stoppe: First of all, when you see me, it's all hair color and makeup. So it's like definitely, I was just telling you guys before we came on, I'm gonna be 65 in May. I'm just counting the days till I'm on Medicare. Steve retired, he's 71. And he's already on Medicare.

And so we're like doing one of those Christian networks to get me through till I'm on Medicare also. But yeah, it's interesting too, embracing old age. I'm from California and people don't want to be thought of as old here. And I was born and raised here. I was born in LA, raised in the San Francisco Bay area, but to be thought of as old, it's almost offensive.

And I remember speaking at a woman's retreat in California and I was saying, Old Ladies Know Stuff. Ha, I'm old, blah, blah, blah. And a woman came up to me afterward and said, I'm your age and it offends me that you say this is old. And I'm like, honestly, however old we are, we're older than someone behind us that God wants us to mentor.

Whether you are newlywed, just married and you reach back into your world of single friends that are engaged or getting married and you mentor them, Titus two calls the older to teach the younger. And I believe that's the nod to the Old Ladies Know Stuff podcast. 'cause when Steve and I got married, we got married back in the 19 hundreds, in the olden days and wore this big white hat veil thing walking down the aisle. So hate my wedding pictures now. (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: They are to be celebrated. The eighties were wonderful years.

 (laughing)

Rhonda Stoppe: They were, but man. Anyway, when we got married, I came from a long line of divorce. Like the families that I was raised in, the marriages did not survive. My parents were teenagers when they got married and my dad came to Christ when I was four years old, and it literally changed the trajectory of my family.

And I know my dad chose to stay with my mother because he gave his heart to Christ. But I watched their marriage and I thought, I don't wanna be that kind of a wife. I don't wanna give my husband the silent treatment when he lets me down. I don't want to... fill in the blank. And by the way, I led my mom to the Lord six months before she passed away. So that was a praise.

But their marriage ended in divorce after 30 years of marriage. It was very textbook. The kids are grown. Soon as my youngest brother, he was the baby, went off to the military, they separated and they got a divorce. And there's something called the gray divorce right now that's going on. And it is people that are our age. And they think, all right, I did my duty. I stayed married to my spouse, I raised our kids, and now it's quote me time. Now I'm gonna sow my wild oats, or now I'm gonna find someone to make me happy, or whatever that is.

And honestly, it's the lie from the enemy and even my dad, who I adore, and my dad is still alive, he's 84 years old. He will say, he tells younger people, don't ever think leaving the wife of your youth is gonna bring you happiness somewhere else. And he mentors from his place of regret. And to me, that's where we are, the age that we're at. It's not sharing from our, all of our successes, it's sharing genuinely from our highs and our lows.

And so when I knew I wasn't the wife I meant to be and I was working in San Francisco Bay area, I was a full-time until I had a kid. And then I started staying home. And then I looked around, Steve was in youth ministry. I looked around at the marriages of our kids and our youth, their parents' marriages, and I wanted to emulate the ones that still laughed with each other, held each other's hands.

Their kids wanted their friends to come over to their house and be with them. And I just reached out to them and asked, especially one woman in particular, her name was Gail, she's still alive, she's 84 also. And I said, you're the age of my mom, which she was offended, but my mom was 17 when I was born, so she was like, oh, I guess I'm the age of your mom.

But I said, I don't know how to do this. So she invited me to a woman's Bible study and I was like no. I don't need another Bible study. I went to Christian schools. I aced those Bible finals. I just wanna be a better wife and mom. And she said, trust me. Come to this Bible study. It will help you grow in ways you never dreamed. And it was a precept, it was five hours of homework a week, and I was like, she's crazy. I have a new baby. I can't do five hours of homework a week. I'm a stay at home mom. But you couldn't talk in class unless you did your work.

Martha Brangenberg: Great format for you, wasn't that? (laughing)

Jim Brangenberg: Which would've been killer for you. Torture, absolutely killer for you. (laughing)

Rhonda Stoppe: But after being in corporate America to be a stay at home mom, it's lonely. I remember feeling so lonely and frumpy, so it's oh yeah, every Tuesday I got to get dressed up and I got to put my child in the nursery for three hours and talk to grownups without being interrupted. So I did my homework.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Rhonda Stoppe: But you know what? The word of God, which is quick and powerful and sharper than a two-edged sword, transformed me. It revealed to me the thoughts and intents of my own heart. And I was the only young woman in this whole Bible study. These women shared honestly, from what the Lord was convicting them of in that study, things they had learned from their life when they were a young bride, when they were a younger mom.

They shared genuine stories of how God refined them through trials. And I grew under the mentorship of those women. So that's my passion, why I believe "Old Ladies Know Stuff." Not that we've done it perfectly, but if you find yourself a genuine mentor who will be real with you - or we're talking to iRetire4Him, you be that genuine mentor.

Jim Brangenberg: Yes.

Rhonda Stoppe: And that doesn't mean - you have to set up boundaries. I'm sorry, I'm still just talking before you ask me another question. You have to set up boundaries.

 (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: You're doing great.

Rhonda Stoppe: As a pastor's wife, I would have women come and say, I want you to mentor me. So they would wanna meet for coffee and I would end up buying their coffee, which I was on a tight pastor's wife's budget. So it's costing me a lot to meet with you once a week. And then they would just wanna tell me how hard their life is and tell me how hard their husband is and tell me how rebellious their children are and their financial troubles.

And I found it was a wasted hour or two of them venting and me trying to get them redirected and I had to stop. And then they wouldn't even show up at church on Sunday. And it's like oh, I overslept. I'm like, okay, time out. You've got to apply yourself. You need to come to the Women's Bible Study that I'm teaching or that I'm attending. You need to attend church service because the Bible says that you are not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together. I don't care if your kid has soccer. Figure it out. Skip those soccer games. That's a whole nother, don't get me on that soapbox.

 (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: Part two.

Rhonda Stoppe: But it's easy when we say yes, I'll be someone's mentor, for them to just suck the life out of us and drain us and have it not be effective at all. So setting up some wise boundaries, inviting them - read this book with me. Let's read The Marriage Mentor together. Let's work through a chapter each week. Having them do the homework or do an assignment or show up to a study. That means they're serious and they really want to take the mentoring that you're willing to give them and apply it to their lives.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, it's easy for 'em to take our time. Very, it seems like the next generation's not as eager to take the advice, but when you put some onus on them, eventually you wear off on 'em. But spending time together, we covered this a decade ago, a book written by a guy named Grant Skeldon, wrote the book Passion Generation.

He goes, all we want is to walk alongside you chronologically superior people to see how you're doing it. And that's, it works in marriage and really in retirement. That's why we wanted to talk to you, because you're newly retired ish in age, but you're not gonna retire anyway. But you're in this new phase of life.

And by the way, I wanna say one more other thing because I got a great line for people that wanna get divorced after 30 years because they think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. And I grew up in Minnesota, not California. We actually have water in Minnesota, but in Minnesota where I grew up, the reason the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence - there's a leaky septic tank.

 (laughter)

Rhonda Stoppe: I love that.

Martha Brangenberg: You need to know why it's greener. (laughing)

Jim Brangenberg: That is why. That is why. And it applies to marriage. People, they're like, oh, it's gonna be great. You're like, yep, there's a septic tank underneath there and it's gotta crack. Okay, go ahead.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay. I wanna say a couple things though for our listeners, just to get you up to speed.

So Rhonda talked about a book that she wrote called The Marriage Mentor, and she wrote that with her husband, Steve, give him credit. She's holding it up there. (shows book on video) It has got such a cute cover with the cake topper and everything, but it is a great book and for all you retirees, I am sure every year you have weddings or bridal showers, things that you're invited to, I encourage each and every one of you to put this in your gift for that young couple or middle-aged couple or remarrying couple, whatever they might be, to get them a tool that they can use together.

Jim and I are big fans of it, and we'll put a link in the show notes for a previous interview we did with Rhonda and her husband Steve, about that book. But that's what we're referring to. And that's just one simple thing that Rhonda was saying, get this book and offer to go through it with somebody, be their mentor in that way. But it's about accountability and it's about having skin in the game.

Jim Brangenberg: I really wasn't necessary today, I can see.

Martha Brangenberg: No, Rhonda and I got this. (chuckling)

Jim Brangenberg: But in The Marriage Mentor, every chapter has three quarters of the chapter written to women by Rhonda, and then there's the man snippet in the end, which is like a page going, idiot, just read this and you'll understand what I'm trying to say. Thank you, Steve. And then there's a link to a video of the two of them working through it. It's just, are the videos still out there, Rhonda?

Rhonda Stoppe: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay, good. I didn't figure they'd go away. Martha and I say about this book is it everything we've ever said in a marriage mentoring session in 25 years, Rhonda and Steve put in a book, so we didn't have to write a book. Although we're working on one anyway but okay. But how is marriage different now that you got Steve, he's 71, he is retired, you're still living out on the ranch - how is your time different today now that Steve doesn't have the day-to-day onerous responsibilities of senior pastoring at church and you're still writing and speaking and talking and traveling? How is it different?

Rhonda Stoppe: We did have a conversation when he decided to retire. 'Cause I have a new book. I'm gonna hold it up real quick. Moms of the Bible: Life Changing Lessons from the Fearless, Flawed, and Faithful. And this releases March 10th, 2026. So I'm getting ready to do a book tour with that. But as I'm approaching this book publication, I'm asking him, am I retired too? How do we wanna play this? And he said, you do you. I just know that it's this season for me.

So now, we live on a ranch, it's an 80 acre ranch, and this man has had animals and he's had other things. And we had moved his parents onto our property when his mom had Alzheimer's and we cared for her. I know you guys talked about having to care for family. That was a rough season. That was hard. His mom used to love me and all of a sudden did not know who I was. It was a rough season.

But we have this other house on our property. So in this season, Steve is fixing up that house so that my son and his wife and four children can move into it. And my son, who's 36 years old, he's a worship pastor. He is been a worship pastor for over a decade. He wants to do a reset. He wants to do something where he's working from home, providing for his family, and then he wants to be able to work in a small church as a worship leader, volunteering, or a small part-time salary.

He said, I don't want to lead worship in big churches anymore. I wanna be part of a small church family, which that's always been our ministry, the church that Steve pastored. So we were like move into grandma and Grandpa's house, and so right now they're living with us. So yeah, life is very different. They've been with us since November.

Martha Brangenberg: So that's what retirement right now looks like - a household. (chuckling)

Rhonda Stoppe: It does.

Jim Brangenberg: Did you ever dream of being Grammy every day?

Rhonda Stoppe: Yeah. Honestly, I stay in my lane, so I don't even come outta my bedroom till 10:00 AM. I stay in my room, I do my quiet time and all the things in here. They homeschool, so they're out in the dining room. Brandon's up in the laundry room where he's working from home, doing his job. It's just been super sweet just that season of watching them parent their children. And you do have to, I don't need to use my voice every time I see something that I'm like, oh, I would've done that differently.

It's like, they're doing a great job and I need to encourage them and cheer them on and not - I just got back from Hawaii. In fact, you guys, we were texting while I was in Hawaii. My son Tony, who we adopted in our family when he was 15 years old, I tell Tony's story in my book, Moms Raising Sons to Be Men, he just retired from the Air Force. He was an F 22 fighter pilot. And yeah, so that's, usually men go, wow. Women are like, airplane. No, it was a wow airplane.

Jim Brangenberg: No, F 22 not an airplane, it's an airplane, it goes 700 plus, it's fast.

Rhonda Stoppe: So he just retired and he's, I think he's 46 years old. She's a doctor, they're gonna stay in Hawaii. He just started working for Hawaiian Airlines and I just went and spent a week with them. I said, I don't wanna go to Pearl Harbor, I don't wanna go. I just wanna be with your family and see you live your life and do your thing.

And I got to go to church with them and I got, they did a beach baptism and it just filled me with such joy to see this season of their life. And it's new, they've only been at this church for a couple months, and so Colleen, my sweet daughter-in-law, she said, I wanna learn from you now in this season. So she said, what do you observe? Anything that we need to do differently? And I'm like

Jim Brangenberg: wow. Landmine alert. Landmine alert. Do not answer that question. (laughing)

Rhonda Stoppe: But I did notice that they brought two families with them to this new church that they're attending, and they feel very responsible for the spiritual development of these two families. But I noticed after church that they immediately go visit with those two families. And I met the pastor. I met a older couple whose daughter actually is best friends with my daughter. They went to Masters University together, so I introduced them to that older couple and I'm like, i'll take care of your kids in California if you take care of my kids in Hawaii.

And then I just met a lot of people and then we went to the beach baptism, and I think they have two or three services at this church. But I told Tony, the people at this baptism, this is the core people of that church, this is the people that are, it was a football playoff Sunday, and there were people that were at this baptism.

They baptized nine adults and one child. And I said, this is the people that you want to become friends with. So we started meeting and making friends. So in the car, after we were leaving, I said, when she asked me that, I said it's nice that you're making your friends feel welcome, but these people, you need to just walk up to them and introduce yourself at this new church.

And she said, I just saw you do that and you don't - how do you? I go, they have the Holy Spirit in them. And so do you. So you're not just walking up to anybody and saying, Hey, be my friend. The spirit of the most high God indwells you and indwells them. That's your brother or sister in Christ. Reach out to them. Make them feel welcome talking to you, and you'll build fast friendships. So that's a little glimpse of a question that she asked that I was like, don't just huddle in the corner where you feel safe.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Rhonda Stoppe: Step into new relationships. And when you're retiring, sometimes you're relocating and you're going to a new church. And you're like, okay, these people already have their friends, they already have their relationships. I'll just stand back here. And what do we do? We look at our phone because it's safe. Like after church is over oh, I better check my messages. And we tell everyone around us, I'm busy, I'm important. Don't talk to me.

Put your phone down. And you go up to those circles and you introduce yourself and say, I'm new here. It's scary, but it's also God will knit your heart together with other believers.

Jim Brangenberg: But it does seem easier to talk to complete strangers when you are older. 'Cause our parents did it and they demonstrated it well. So we can walk in a room and talk to people that sometimes our kids are like, you're doing that grandma, grandpa thing. You're just going, talking to complete strangers and asking 'em weird questions. I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm good at it and I'm getting old, so it's okay. I can do that. Just one last question about you and Steve. What are you doing now that you're in these quote unquote retirement years? What are you doing to keep your marriage vibrant?

Rhonda Stoppe: Okay, he's always wanted to be a homesteader. We have 80 acres and he's always had animals, but never really been able to just take care of animals. Oh, we have pigs and goats and peacocks and puppies and pears. He raises pears. And he's just wholeheartedly devoting himself to getting that all set up. Like he really is excited about it and I'm not. (laughter) It's you, go baby!

Jim Brangenberg: I'll come bring lemonade to you, baby.

Rhonda Stoppe: But I'm excited for him because he's never had time to just do this. And when you're a pastor, especially of a small church, his phone, he's always available to his congregation. The texts light up the phone. And it's funny, when you're a pastor's wife, 'cause there's times that you're talking and all of a sudden I'll realize he's not responding like, Uhhuh. And I'll look over and he is on his phone and I'm like, who are you talking to? And someone has pulled his mind back into whatever situation he's walking them through.

He lost his phone after he retired, for two weeks. He was on a dirt bike ride on our property and it fell out of his pocket. And for two weeks he didn't have a phone and he was in heaven. He was so excited that nobody could reach him. Yes. And so after two weeks, I'm like, dude, everyone's texting me trying to find you. Find your phone. (laughing)

Jim Brangenberg: It makes my hands sweaty thinking about being without your phone for two weeks.

Rhonda Stoppe: But he was in heaven.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. I'm sure.

Our retirement years can definitely be a new chapter in our life with an open agenda to work for him, if you'll seek his will for it. So be encouraged to live out your faith in retirement. So many men and women need what you have. And I'm speaking to our audience today, to be inspired to help others understand the retirement calling get a copy of iRetire4Him: Unlock God's Purpose for Your Retirement. Get a copy in our bookstore on Amazon, or on our bookstore online at iwork4him.com/bookstore.

It is written by Martha and myself alongside Martha's dad who shared his wisdom living out his faith in his retirement. It's the inspiration that launched this podcast, iRetire4Him, as the title I retire the number 4 him.com.

Martha Brangenberg: Alright, Rhonda, so speaking of podcasts, let's talk about Old Ladies Know Stuff. Why do Old Ladies Know Stuff that the rest of us don't know?

Rhonda Stoppe: And I wanna step back and tell you one other piece of advice that I gave my daughter-in-law.

Martha Brangenberg: Good.

Rhonda Stoppe: And I'll give it to all of you that are retired: daytime intimacy. Don't wait till nighttime when you're both tired to say, I guess we should do that thing we do.

Jim Brangenberg: You can say sex on this podcast.

 (laughter)

Rhonda Stoppe: Okay. I wasn't sure. I don't know what we rated here, (laughter) but I guess that's alright. I guess we're retired. People don't have children listening while they're driving in the car. But daytime sex. And I told my daughter-in-law, your kids are at school. He's home. He works for Hawaiian Airlines, but he's on call, so he's home a lot. She works from home a couple days a week.

And she was asking a question about when the kids wanna come in the room and one of them wants to sleep in their room. And I'm like, you know what? And their kids are like, one's still in junior high and one's in high school. But I'm like, you know what? First of all, set up that boundary. Secondly, daytime sex in the middle of the day when the each of you are not tired and you got some time. And she's really? I'm like, it's a game changer. And so I said, promise me you're gonna do that. And she said, I will. I said, it's gonna breathe new life into your sex life. It's gonna be fun and new and exciting.

And honestly, I do believe that is one of the things that retired couples, it's easy to not put time into intimacy. And I know some couples have a difficulty at the season of their life, whether it's a health issue, medications. I have a friend whose husband has MS, and they're not able, but it's, you know what? You can still enjoy each other's bodies, even if that is a glitch. So just to say, we don't do that anymore. I'm telling you, figure it out. Be playful and connect physically in the marriage bed because that's God's plan to keep you from just being roommates.

Now, I forgot what you asked me. (laughter) We were talking about sex.

Jim Brangenberg: I was gonna say.

Rhonda Stoppe: Wait. And I do have a book called A Christian Woman's Guide to Great Sex and Marriage that you can find on Amazon.

Jim Brangenberg: Alright, did you tell your daughter-in-law that they have a name for that? It's called a nooner.

 (laughter)

Rhonda Stoppe: The nooner. I did not, but I should have told her that.

Jim Brangenberg: A nooner. That's right. How about a nooner today?

Martha Brangenberg: Okay, so moving on. (chuckling) Rhonda, I love this though because you do such a good job of articulating things that people just don't talk about and they need to be talked about and they need to be in the forefront because it is how God designed it. And so I thank you for taking that space and wearing that mantle. So let's talk about your new podcast. Tell us about it.

Rhonda Stoppe: Okay. Old Ladies Know Stuff. I am absolutely loving this show because I am either putting an excerpt from something that I have taught and sometimes it's an interview that I have done, and it's not always a woman that I've interviewed. I just interviewed Keith Farrin and he's the Bible coach, and he was talking to us at the beginning of the year about moving from "should" to "want" in our readings and studying and memorization of scripture.

And there are author friends that I have. My friend Cindy McMenamin, we talked about The New Loneliness that she just wrote. Because it can be a lonely season, especially when we're older and we're retired and we have to be more intentional in creating relationships. It's fun, it's honest, it's funny but I also know that it's just a way to engage myself. It's in 88 countries, it's almost got 50,000 downloads, so please follow my podcast and subscribe so I can get to that 50,000 downloads. I don't know what that means. I just think it would be fun.

 (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: That sounds good.

Rhonda Stoppe: But it's also amazing to me. When I was a 10-year-old girl, the Lord put on my heart to be a missionary. I was at camp and I was like, I'm gonna be a missionary and I had no idea what that would look like. I had no idea the Lord had planned for me to be a youth pastor's wife for 18 years.

When you're in youth ministry, you are ministering to a culture in a foreign land. And then God made me a pastor's wife for 25 years in the United States. I did not have to leave this country. But even in this season of my life, as not a pastor's wife anymore, seeing - I'm gonna cry - that my podcast was listened to in Lebanon and India and Israel and Nigeria, it's like, even some of these places where they're Muslim countries, I just imagine a woman in the dark closet in her bedroom where her husband can't hear. She's listening to this podcast and she's hearing the gospel.

I'm an evangelist at heart, so in the back of every single one of my books and as often as I can, I wanna share how to have a true relationship with Jesus. So the podcast is just really genuine, people talking about the genuine things, and most of them are older, the women that I interview, that have written a book or have their own podcast or experience that I want the younger women - my audience has been the 30 something soccer mom who is overwhelmed. She wants a better marriage, but she really doesn't know how to get there.

And then older women that are our age that see the value of this season of our life, this is where God has us and he wants us to serve him by the power of the Spirit of God serving through us. Because the Bible says it's God who works in you willing to do his good pleasure. And it's easy to just check out and say, let the young ones do it. But that's not God's plan. Titus two calls the older women to teach the younger.

Martha Brangenberg: So good.

Jim Brangenberg: So much and so good. Really fantastic. I love that.

Martha Brangenberg: So let's just talk to the ladies our age and all the ladies that are listening - and men, if you're listening... I wanna just hear what you would say to them as you encourage them to look at their life, look at this, 2026 whatever time they're listening to this show, what is it that God's calling them to do? How can they be seeking and being obedient?

Rhonda Stoppe: Yeah, in your marriage, I wrote out a couple of ideas. Create new rhythms. So you had a rhythm when you were working. Now you gotta figure out a new rhythm. And so mine and Steve's is morning coffee together. No phones. We hang out with each other. We watch this show about homesteading. And my grandson, who's living with us right now is like, why do you guys watch that? But my husband's like learning tons of stuff, so yeah. I watch it with 'em 'cause I'm like, yeah, you could do that. You could do that.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, let me know when it's done. (laughter)

Rhonda Stoppe: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then giving each other space. It's okay that you don't have to do everything together. Give each other breathing room. You wanna prioritize your grandkids, but not at the expense of your marriage. So set some boundaries and keep learning together - laugh together - and keep learning together. What book are you reading? And honestly, I have been, audio books have become a new favorite for me.

The drive to town from where we live on our ranch is 45 minutes. Our radio service is terrible. No cell service. The audio books that I'm listening to are biographies of people that have walked this path, people of the faith, and it is so inspiring because it just reminds you, this is our turn and reminding each other as a couple, this is our turn. Let's not waste this free season that God has given us to serve him.

And what is that gonna look like and how can I cheer you on and be willing to ask, hey, when I'm off, will you tell me? Like out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So if anxiety's coming out of me, if fear, if being judgmental- 'cause let's be honest, when we're older, we wanna judge everybody that they don't know what we know. They don't know what we know. But having my husband be my accountability partner and then not getting my feathers ruffles when he cares enough to tell me, Hey, what you just said might reveal this in your heart.

That to me is a sweet season of trust that is built over years together. First Corinthians 13 says, "love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things, believes all things" means believes the best about each other. So that's not assigning wrong motives to each other's actions, not having that argument in your head with him or her before she even walks in the door and then blasting them, believing the best about them. That is a gift that you give each other. I know how I feel when I have friends that believe the best about me. I wanna spend time with them.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Rhonda Stoppe: When I have friends that are like, Hey, you didn't call me on my birthday, and hey, you haven't called me in two weeks... I walk very carefully on eggshells around them. Don't be that for your spouse.

Jim Brangenberg: And by the way, you're still the wife of a pastor. He didn't, that didn't change. Just 'cause he's not working right now full-time within the four walls of a church. I'm guessing he's still a pastor. He needs a little time to refresh, but that's gonna come out because that flowed naturally out of him.

Rhonda Stoppe, we're outta time. But I would recommend for everybody that's got a new spouse at home, another great author friend of ours wrote a book, Spouse in the House. It is a great book about what do you do when your husband invades your space at home?

Martha Brangenberg: I'm gonna put some links in the show notes, including to Rhonda's new book that's coming out. So we're very excited to see that again. Is it Moms of the Bible?

Jim Brangenberg: Moms of the Bible.

Rhonda Stoppe: Can I add real quick? I'm speaking at a Grandparenting summit. It's like we used to speak at youth camps, now we speak at Grandma and Grandpa camps. (laughing) It is in March and it is in Texas. I'm trying to find the date. It's March 19, 20th and 21st. And it's in like the Dallas area. It is massive how this has moved.

It's a 10 year anniversary of this grandparenting, it's called Legacy Coalition. And you can find their website and get all the information for the summit. If you come, please come see me. I'll have a booth there and I'm speaking at that summit, so that's in March in Dallas.

Jim Brangenberg: Rhonda Stoppe, thanks for being with us on iRetire4Him today.

Rhonda Stoppe: Thanks for having me. Anytime.

Jim Brangenberg: You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brandenburg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose, so we can say, iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 158: As You Go - A Way of Life

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days.

Martha Brangenberg: Welcome to iRetire4Him. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Check us out online at iRetire4Him.com.

Jim Brangenberg: So many of us have a misunderstanding about that great commission and almost all of us think it doesn't have to do with our retirement years. As I've studied and learned about following Jesus in his great commission in Matthew 28, Jesus wasn't telling us all to go, he said, "as you go." As we are about our daily routine, we are to teach others the things he taught us and is teaching us. As we go, not go.

So as you enter your retirement years, the call is still in your life too "as you go." In fact, you have more time than ever to teach others what Jesus taught and what he's teaching you. This is how your retirement days can be filled with meaning and purpose because you can "as you go," even when you are FaceTiming your grandkids in another part of the country.

So what does this look like, this "as we go" thing in our retirement years? Victor Dawson wrote a book about his experience "as you going" in life, and he is here today to share from his daily experiences and to inspire all of us in our quote unquote retirement years to "as you go." Victor Dawson, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Victor Dawson: Thanks, Jim. It's pleasure to be with you and Mary - Martha. I'm sorry.

Jim Brangenberg: That's her sister. Her sister's name is Mary. That's right. Alright, so Victor, we just got done recording an iWork4Him show, which we'll release about a week later than this iRetire4Him show, and in this show we're gonna shift the focus to you're As You Go book and applying it to those that are in those retirement years, because we are all seeking meaning and purpose. But I wanna just shift that mentality, but I wanna encourage everybody listening to go to iWork4Him.com the week of the 4th of February to capture the story that Victor released with one of his mentees on iWork4Him.

All right. So Victor, first question. How long have you been in your quote unquote retirement years?

Victor Dawson: I'm the age to be in my retirement years, but I'm not retired at all. I still own a company that I run, that I started 22 years ago that does global product sourcing. We just sold a second company about four years ago, and I have a ministry called guess what?... As You Go, that we are developing beyond the book into a small group curriculum. There's been a song written and a whole bunch of other stuff, and maybe even a podcast. I don't know if I can do it as well as you guys.

Jim Brangenberg: But can you sing this song for us?

Victor Dawson: Oh gosh. You don't want, you don't want me to do that. (laughter) no. I'll record it in the shower tomorrow morning.

 (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah, there you go. And we'll publish it for you. Yeah, that would be fabulous.

Jim Brangenberg: Heard first here, right here on iRetire4Him..

Martha Brangenberg: So what you're saying is in spite of the fact that the world looks at you and says, you should probably be retired by now, or at least America looks at it that way, you have a lot of things that are just ramping up, it sounds, in your life.

Victor Dawson: Yeah, I think the best is yet to come. I get frustrated with people that say, they meet you for the first time and they say, so I'm assuming you're retired, or how long have you been retired? And I am not, come on.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay. So let's dig into that conversation a little bit. What did you hear from the pulpit as an adult about retirement or what it should look like when you retire?

Victor Dawson: Sadly, I don't think I've heard much of anything about it, actually.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay.

Victor Dawson: And it's not biblical, as there's nothing in there. It's pretty much an American or western concept of, okay, you go to school, you work your career, and then you retire when you get to be 60 or 65 or some age. You can no longer have value for the company and so they give you the gold watch and send you on your way.

And everybody's excited about it and talking about it, want to even retire early so I can go travel and play golf and all the rest of that. Statistics show that people that do that and don't have a purpose in life die about 10 years sooner than they would otherwise.

Jim Brangenberg: And what's funny is these companies that you say, they think that you no longer adding value, so they give you the Gold Watch and the kick in the keester, those are the stupidest companies on the planet because truly the most wisdom comes from those who have no hair any longer. (laughter) The most wisdom comes from those who have gray hairs, have significant chronologically superior experience to the young people. That's where the wisdom of this world lies.

And yet we absolutely, we kick them out because they're more expensive. As Dave Ramsey would say all the time, "stupid on a sandwich." You wrote this book As You Go, Victor, which I really enjoyed, and I enjoyed the many different stories, and we covered one of those stories in depth on iWork4Him. Where did you learn to "as you go" in your life?

Victor Dawson: I got involved with men's ministry called CBMC, Christian Businessmen's Connection. It started in the US almost a hundred years ago and is now in about a hundred countries around the world. And the mission is evangelism and discipleship of business people. And so I started to learn how to do that, how to be an evangelist or to share your faith. And then along the way, I was searching for my purpose in life, my lifetime purpose.

Not a goal, but the thing you do, you never check off your list, the thing that you do until you take your last breath. I realized after a lot of prayer and some talking to one of my friends, that was my purpose, and I wrote it "as an ambassador of Christ, as I go, to make diciples of all nations by giving, loving and serving with integrity people around the world," and I can do that till God calls me home.

Martha Brangenberg: Amen.

Victor Dawson: And so I have a purpose every day when I get up, and one of the things I pray is that God would lead me to someone that needs to know him better.

Martha Brangenberg: So let's talk about that a little bit more. What does it look like for you to live out your life from this "as you go" perspective?

Victor Dawson: It starts with prayer, okay? A lot of people say gosh, I don't know how to, I don't know how to reach someone. I don't know how to find a Timothy to disciple, a mentee. Have you asked God? Why in the world wouldn't God bring you one? He will, maybe not tomorrow, but it's at the right time and the right place or the right person. He'll bring you somebody if you just will be alert and keep your eyes open. Have your radar on. Abide in the Holy Spirit.

Listen. 'cause there are plenty of times when I've been on a plane, maybe let's say, and no matter how hard I try, I'm really not gonna have a conversation with the guy next to me. He's got his earbuds in and he's zoned out and he doesn't want to talk to me at all. Okay, maybe that wasn't one I was supposed to share with, but there are plenty other times when God is, you can sense the prompting right away. God wants you to say something to this person.

Now we gotta be clear here. You're not gonna save him no matter what you say. You're not gonna save him. God does the saving. He just calls us to be his witness, to be his ambassador, to share about him and let God take it from there. So that takes all the pressure off. That's part of the problem of the great Commission is most people think if I go out and I talk to somebody and share my faith and they don't get down on their knees and pray the prayer, I failed miserably.

No, because there are times, I tell it this way, I try to start a conversation with somebody and they shut me down and say, listen, I don't want to hear that stuff. Get outta my face. Go away. I did my part. Now maybe I'll learn from the encounter that, maybe I should say it a little different or do something a little different, but the thing is, we don't know what God's gonna do in that person's life in two months or two years. And he's gonna go, you know that guy that was on the airplane with me, he was trying to tell me something. When I get to heaven, I'll be sure and apologize. (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: And it's so great that you live your life like this, where you're looking for those opportunities every day. And our retirement years can be a new chapter with an open agenda to work for him. Be encouraged, everyone out there listening, to live out your faith in your retirement. So many men and women need what you have. Pour your life into them to be inspired and to help others understand retirement.

Get a copy of our book iRetire4Him: unlock God's Purpose for Your Retirement in our bookstore. You can find it on our bookstore online or on Amazon. Go to iwork4him.com/bookstore. You'll find in there amazing inspiration from so many others and especially Martha's dad who wrote his stories of living out his faith in his work.

Victor, so many of our listeners were told that they had to go, that they had to go in order to be able to be significant of the kingdom and not that they were just supposed to just teach others as they go. There's a significant difference in "everybody's gotta go" or maybe some aren't called to go to the difference of living life "as you go."

Victor Dawson: Yes, absolutely. The operative word in the verse Matthew 28:19, that we're referred to as the Great Commission, is make - make disciples, and we can talk about that part in a minute, but my contention is that you've gotta go first, that you've gotta share with someone. You can't disciple a non-believer.

You can do what traditional mentoring looks like in a secular world, but you can't disciple a person with a different worldview. So you gotta share your faith. But then the part, and here's where I think it gets confusing to people - they, first of all are scared to death to share their faith, which is silly because it's very easy and fun to do, and you might even make a few lifetime friends in the process. But when it says go and make disciples of all nations, I think most people say, oh gosh, I'm so glad that's the way it's said, way it's written 'cause that's gotta be the pastors and the missionaries, right?

That's not me. I am so glad for that. I'll put some money in the offering to cover the missionaries and I've done my part. No, Jesus was calling all believers to, as you go along your way, share about him and then make disciples. And it just is supposed to be like a lifestyle. It's just supposed to be the way we are as Christ followers. That this is just a natural part of our being as we go about our day and go about whatever we're doing, that we look for those opportunities to share our faith.

Martha Brangenberg: I think about the conversations that we have in a day and how we can sometimes just run into a perfect stranger and say you are a doctor or a physician. You naturally, if you hear them saying they have a problem with something, you naturally go into the conversation about here's something I know that might help you. Or say you're a really good shopper and you know about a really good deal somewhere, you naturally hear about the need and help to fill it.

But for some reason, as believers, we shy away from that same conversation when it comes to our faith and sharing, seeing the need and helping to show them the answer. And I think that is really an essence of the "as you go" portion of it. So as we talk about it in respects to retirement, I think that there's a huge connection here because there are people that are still going to financially retire.

And Victor, there may be a day when you sell your company or somebody else takes over and you're doing something without gaining a paycheck, you still have this the opportunity to, as you go. I think in America, so many people think I hang up my hat. I quit punching a time clock. I no longer have a purpose. What is your perspective on that for the listener here? Because I think that's a huge encouragement to them, that they're not done.

Victor Dawson: No, they're not done at all. And the first part of this, though, is I want to, I wanna explain, and I have done this number of times when I've spoken to groups and the question is, how many of you are in full-time ministry?

There's a group of business people, nobody raises their hand. I said I'm in full-time ministry. I own a company or work for a company, whatever. I don't get a dime from any ministry, but I'm a businessman in full-time ministry. And so that's the perspective you need to have before you retire, quote unquote retire.

But then once you have made that transition or started that transition, you've just got to find a purpose. And it may be that you as you go, your purpose is mine and sharing my faith all the time and discipling people, which is the most satisfying thing I've ever done in life, is discipleship.

Whatever, you need to ask God and pray and seek a purpose in life because without that, you're not gonna do well in your retirement years. As much as we've romanticized it and dreamed about it and worked hard to get there, you're gonna be sadly disappointed when you hit the brakes and you can only play a few more rounds of golf before you lose your mind because you don't feel like you're of any value.

Now here's one other thing I wanted to tell you when you were talking about this a minute ago. One of the challenges that I think most older guys like us, me anyway, they don't think the younger crowd has any interest in them, especially in the last, 20 years, let's say all the technological changes and things that are going on.

What if I'm a 30 something year old guy, what in the world could some 70 or 80-year-old guy have, how could we even have a relationship? My contention is that those 30 somethings are dying to find somebody who's farther down the road, whatever you know, whether it's 60, 70, 80, it doesn't matter, that they can relate to, that they can start a relationship with, that can help them because they are scared to death what's going on, and they don't know how to handle it all. And to find somebody that you can talk to and that you can trust and that you can share your life with. They are desperate to find them. And so all these elderly guys and women, people who think I've hung it up and now nobody's interested in me, that's just a lie.

Jim Brangenberg: And having a mentee in our lives brings new purpose and meaning. , And it's not just us pouring our lives as somebody else. They end up pouring their lives back into us. You shared in detail a story just like that in your book As You Go, and also on an iWork4Him podcast released on the 4th of February, coming up here. This story with Brett Emiluth was powerful and I wanna just give us a brief synopsis of how you got connected to Brett as a mentor and how one day he became a mentor in your life.

Victor Dawson: So Brett had just recently before we met, we've known each other now, we decided for 22 years, which I can't believe, but just before we met, he had rededicated his life to Christ. He was in his early thirties and I felt like God was prompting me to initiate a call with him and see if he wanted to be discipled and using Operation Timothy with CBMC. And so he agreed and we started meeting at a coffee shop near his office on a weekly basis, almost every week for about three years.

He was going through a very difficult time because he wasn't sure he was gonna make it as a financial planner in his first couple of years. And I kept telling him that God loves you more than you can imagine. God has a plan and a purpose for your life, and God wants you to trust him and he'll take care of you well.

He made it through those first few years and then sometime later on he and I had lunch together and he shared with me that he was so desperate during that time that he was gonna fail his family and just have financial ruin that he had strongly considered taking his own life and in such a way that hopefully they'd get the insurance and that if he had not been meeting with me, he probably would've gone through with it.

I was just stunned. I couldn't believe it. He said, you saved my life. Wow. That was incredible. You fast forward a few more years and I was having some real challenges business-wise and otherwise. And one Thursday night, my wife and I had the worst argument I can ever remember, and I spent the night on the sofa in tears and very upset, very distressed, had some similar thoughts of Brett, maybe not quite as seriously, but I was just feeling hopeless and the alarm went off at 5:30 and I remembered I had a golf event that I had to go to. I was on the board of a children's charity and we were having our fundraising and I had already paid my money and invited two or three guys to come.

And so I had to get up and go and on the way to the golf course that morning, Brett called me, which is generally it doesn't happen. He's very busy and I usually initiate the calls and he said, I just had a sense this morning that God wanted me to call you. How are you doing? And I said I'm not doing well at all. He said, let's meet. I'll come out your way. And I said, I'm on my way to this golf event and I won't be done till probably two o'clock. And he said, okay, I'll see you at two o'clock. This is very unusual for him because I was always the one initiating and going near his place of work.

Anyway, I managed to get through this round of golf and all the lunch and everything else, and drove back to the Starbucks to meet Brett at two o'clock, totally drained and exhausted. I got a big hug when I walked in. He said, tell me what's going on. So I briefly shared what had been happening and you just won't believe what he told me.

He said, I need to remind you of something. He said, God loves you more than you can imagine, and God has a plan and a purpose for your life, and God wants you to trust him and he'll take care of you. Thought for a second. I said to Brett, who in the world told you that crap? And he said, you did about a hundred times.

And of course we laughed and I knew that was true, that suddenly the teacher had become the student. And I needed to hear that in the worst possible way that day. He revived the hope and strengthened me to carry on, of course. And I don't think I was nearly as desperate of place as he was, but I was definitely not in a good place that day. And so he stepped up and he responded to God's prompting that he should come and meet with me. And then he shared back with me what I had been trying to teach him 10, 12 years before.

Martha Brangenberg: You not only had the privilege of seeing his growth, spiritual growth and maturity happen, but you actually were able to benefit from his spiritual growth and receive it so beautifully at a time when you needed it.

So God's word does not return void. And in this situation, he walked in that obedience and you were the beneficiary of that. So how incredibly powerful and I hope that our listeners are hearing that. We never know what those relationships are going to, how they're gonna result, what's gonna happen, but intentionally investing in other people with the wisdom and the knowledge that God has given each and every one of us is really what it's all about, taking it to that next generation and the future generations.

And walking in that obedience all because God told you as you go, let's do this. So even in those situations where you might've been at the golf course, riding in a golf cart with somebody you didn't know or that maybe they were having a tough day, that's "as you go" as well.

In those moments, making the most of them, for the kingdom is what it's all about. Have fun, play golf. If you wanna chase around that little ball and spoil a good walk, as we've all heard, right, as Mark Twain said, as Mark Twain says, do it, but do it in a way that gets the focus on the great Commission and what we've been encouraged, not only encouraged - you reminded us it's a command and only 3% of believers are actually obeying that command.

Victor Dawson: Yes. You were talking about, riding in the golf cart or flying on the airplane, whatever you're doing, whether you're at the restaurant or something, there's always something that you can do to start a conversation. And that's the tagline to the book: spark a conversation that impacts eternity.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Victor Dawson: And so I have to admit, and I do claim this in the book, that a friend of mine who was a former president of CBMC actually gave me this idea. I actually did this and I used its story in the book, but I use this all the time. You've never met this guy sitting in the golf cart next to you. And somewhere along the way, early on, you say, are you the reason I'm here today? And they go, what do you mean? I don't understand? I said I prayed this morning that God would lead me to someone that needs to know him better. Is that you?

Martha Brangenberg: Wow. That's a great question.

Victor Dawson: , What I'm teaching, trying to teach people about "as you go" is, there's a whole lot of ways to start a conversation and is you ask somebody, Hey, you recently moved here, have you found a good church?

All these sorts of things, but you don't have to get too carried away, too clever. If you can't think of anything, just say, are you the reason I'm here? And I just had it happen. Actually, we were in Cabo, Mexico, on vacation in December a few weeks ago, and we'd had a sales presentation with this guy and we were waiting for the shuttle bus, and Holy Spirit just prompted me and I turned and said to him, are you the reason I'm here today?

He said, I don't know. Why? We've started a conversation online now, and he actually ordered a copy of my book and I'm expecting him to accept Christ one of these days. Not necessarily because of me, but because I started the conversation.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, Victor, we're so grateful. I would encourage everybody to get a copy of this book asyougobook.com, online to get a copy.

Victor Dawson, thanks for being with us today. Thanks for sharing your story. Thanks for being an example of a chronologically superior person pouring their life into somebody chronologically inferior. Victor Dawson, thanks for being here today on iRetire4Him.

Victor Dawson: Thanks so much. I enjoyed it.

Jim Brangenberg: You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose, so we can say, iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 157: If Moses Started at 80, Why Are We Stopping at 65?

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days. Welcome to iRetire4Him. I'm your host, Jim Brangenberg. Please check us out online at iretire4him.com.

When you were 25, were you contemplating how God would use you when you turned 65? When you turned 65, did you lay out a 25 year plan for how God would use you in retirement? At 89, did you know how God would be using you at 89? Do you have a 41 year plan like Moses did when he was 79 years old, or will you make it to 110 like Joshua? We don't know the answers to all those questions, but we do know that when we retire, God's not done with us.

Bill Wagner's just that kind of guy who's done all that kind of planning and asked all those kinds of questions. At 84, he founded the Global Strategy Forum at Olivette University, and he currently chairs the Institute for Global Strategic Studies there as well. Let's catch up with Bill today as he runs through to his 90th birthday coming up real soon. Bill Wagner, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Bill Wagner: Pastor Jim, looking forward to it.

Jim Brangenberg: So Bill, most people in the church today believe that the American dream of retirement is biblical. How did you figure out that it was all a lie? That retiring and going on a 30 year vacation was just a strategy to steal, kill, and destroy.

Bill Wagner: I've always been convinced that you've got all these retired people and they're not doing a whole lot. And when I was in Albuquerque, I remember I had some older people at my church and they were in another church and they felt totally useless. They said that they like to have 'em come to the church because they give a lot of money, but they do absolutely nothing in the church.

And I just said when I get to that age of retirement, I'm going to start finding ways to use these people because they've got tremendous experience, tremendous intelligence, a readiness to serve the Lord, and so that's where I started working on this whole idea.

Jim Brangenberg: So let's take a step back a few decades. How had God prepared you over the first 65 years of your life for the work that you're doing now?

Bill Wagner: Jim, I've had a fascinating life. I really have. In fact I even wrote a book and the title of the book was From Classroom Dummy to University President. I have dyslexia. I've had dyslexia all of my life and I barely made it through grade school without having to repeat the classes. I was in the bottom 10% of my high school graduating course, and I went in and got a degree in engineering. And one reason why I did was because I was good with numbers and also my father was the head of the engineering department at University of New Mexico, so I became an engineer.

And I did get my degree in engineering. And then the next thing I knew, I went to seminary and got a degree in seminary. Then I got another master's degree, I got two doctor's degrees and just kept going. But I have actually written more books than I have read in my entire life. I just do not read, period.

And, so what it is, I feel like God has been preparing me. He's made me very practical and given me a lot of opportunities to be a practical individual. So I've really appreciated that. But one thing that happened when I was very young, when I was about 21, 22, and I was doing evangelism work as a youth evangelist, I said, what am I gonna do when I get old?

And I said when I get old, I'll just be an evangelist among the older people. I'll be an evangelist among anybody that I'm working with. I had a life insurance agent one time that said , the effective area of your ministry will be with those people that are 10 years younger and 10 years older. That is the area. And so as I've gotten older, I have changed the people that I'm working with. And now I'm working with people that are somewhere between 80 and a hundred.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow. I love that attitude and the fact that you were thinking of it as a young guy, Hey, my life's really not gonna change when I get older. I'm just gonna have a different audience. But the audience kinda moves with you because I've seen that in, in my own stuff. But it is still, you're, you still have to have peers, people that you hang out with that or still looking at your attitude going, Bill, I don't understand. Why aren't you just going on vacation?

How do you explain to your peers about your attitude for how you're spending your retirement years and how that's more of a biblical attitude than what they've been adopting? Because a lot of them sold their houses and moved to Florida, Arizona, and went on vacation for 30 years. How do you explain, what are these conversations like for you and your peers?

Bill Wagner: Actually, I've just always been active. I just, I have just never stopped. And the conversation very seldom comes up. People don't ask me about it. They just accept who I am and what I'm doing and then I always turn the conversation back to them and say, what are you doing for the Lord? And i've been amazed that sometimes I can encourage them to be more involved with the Lord.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. My wife and I lived in Florida for 20 years, so we lived around a lot of retirees who were really struggling to find meaning and purpose. You're in the Dallas area where there's a lot of retirees - in Texas, all over Texas.

Do you ever have a chance when you're having those conversations with them, when you ask them, Hey, what are you doing for the Lord? Do they ever say I'm retired, I can't do anything? Do you ever get pushback? Because a lot of them have been told by their local church that they're really, they don't have anything for them to do.

Bill Wagner: No, I just don't give 'em the chance to do that. They don't tell me that. One of the things I've been doing lately, Jim, and I was in California and I noticed all these older people in the church and they were not being used. And so I started a senior lead old fashioned revival in my church in California, was very successful.

And then I came to Texas and I started one in one church, and that was successful. And I have another one coming up in my church now. And what it is, I get all of the senior citizens that are in the church and they're in charge of all the committees and they're in charge of going to the senior citizens homes and the assisted living homes and getting them to come. Everything like that.

And I'm putting these people to work, doing the work they used to do because all of these people grew up in a time when they used to have revivals in the spring and the fall in the churches, and they used to have testimonies and everything. And the type of music they had was this old fashioned hymns. And so we're doing exactly that now, and they have really enjoyed it and they've appreciated it and they've enjoyed being used for the Lord.

Jim Brangenberg: So the books that you've written, have you written specific books on retirement?

Bill Wagner: No. None whatsoever.

Jim Brangenberg: I have, and I wrote it alongside my 89-year-old father-in-law, and we'd like to invite everybody to go out and check out getting a copy of iRetire4Him. Maybe you wanna give it to 'em for helping them start off their new year as they contemplate retirement this year. Get a copy of iRetire4Him for your friends - you could choose audio, digital, or paper copies as well as a PDF format.

Go to iwork4him.com/bookstore for all of the different details iRetire4Him - a book that I wrote alongside my 89-year-old father-in-law who wrote about the stories of how he was living out of the faith in his retirement. Get a copy of iRetire4Him and start changing the lives of those who are contemplating retirement all around you.

Alright, Bill, so let's talk about the Institute for Global Strategic Studies. What's its mission?

Bill Wagner: Okay. I'm a missiologist, Jim. I'm not a theologian, I'm a missiologist. I'm an international missiologist. Both of my doctor's degree are in missions. And so I was saying, why is it that some groups are growing and some are not? So I studied seven groups and they were the they were the Jehovah Witnesses, the Southern Baptists, the Assemblies of God, the Mormons, the Muslims, the homosexuals, and what I call the cover organizations, the World Council of Churches, the World Evangelical Association, and the Sun Movement.

Why are these groups growing? And what I discovered when I studied Islam and by the way, I've written a book on Islam, how Islam plans to change the world, but I studied, I found out that the Muslim missiologists divide their strategy into three levels. They call it a micro, a meta, and a macro level. Now for us, micro would be personal evangelism and church planning.

We do that, we do a good job as evangelicals at that level. The meta would be where we create unions and conventions and associations and universities and seminaries. This is where you're working at a larger level, and we do a good job at that level. But the macro is where you are changing the society and where you are planning to change the society.

And there's only three groups that actually work at the mega level of the seven I study. They are the Mormons, the Muslims, and the homosexuals, and they have been very successful. So I said, why don't we as evangelicals call together mega thinkers? You are mega thinker. You don't think in terms of just saying I'm gonna go out to my local church and win people to the Lord. You're saying, how do I reach the whole retired community?

This is thinking at a mega level and sometimes mega thinkers are put off on the side. They're not really appreciated as such. So I'm bringing all these people together and I brought together about 120 from 26 different countries, and we have these meetings where we just sit down and say, what can we do?

Let me give you one very brief, quick idea. I don't wanna preach here, but the homosexuals, up until 1990, they did not have a strategy in place. And then in 1992 homosexual professors from Harvard University wrote a book entitled After the Ball and they said, we are going to change the American perception of Homosexuality and we're gonna change the society. And so they wrote all their strategy down on this book, and if you wanna find out how they changed it, here it is. They tell us what to do. The only problem is if you wanna buy that used book now it costs you about $400. They don't want people to see it.

But one of the things they did, they said, where is their money and influence in the American society? It is in the corporations. How do we influence the corporations? You don't go to the CEOs because the CEOs at that time were not sympathetic to what they were advocating. And so they said, we will study the board of directors of all of the major corporations until we find one homosexual or one person sympathetic to our cause.

On the board of directors, we will create a beachhead until we influence another board member, until we take over the board, then we can use that corporation for our agenda. They took over Disney, they took over Ford, they took over General Motors. They took over many of the major corporations in America that began to advocate for their cause. And this is what I'm saying. Why don't we as evangelicals think a little bit differently so that we might be able to do some greater work for the Lord?

Jim Brangenberg: Because people have been told - I believe the answer to that question is people have been told, Hey, business is evil and it's a necessary evil and stay outta governments, stay outta politics, when in fact all of those missiologies that you've described, the Muslims, the Mormons the Jehovah Witnesses the LGBTQI plus community, and you said one other one - they all understand. You gotta get all the way to the top. You gotta influence from the top down. You gotta build a control policy. And that's what's amazing.

So how does this apply to the 40 million retired believers in this country right now? How do you activate them? Because just imagine if every one of them knew that their work, now their retired years ,mattered? That they could change the world? We do have a president that is 80 years old.

Bill Wagner: I must admit, Jim, that that's why I'm here with you now. I have not given a lot of thought as to how the older generation can be involved in the mega missions. That's your job now. We'll have to have more contact on that and find out how we can do that. But I think there are ways that we can do it, but as to how we're gonna do it, I'm not sure. Right now my senior led old fashioned revivals is working just simply at the micro level.

Where we're bringing just these individuals, maybe we could develop some type of a system whereby we could have these type of revivals all over the United States to use senior citizens and to get them involved once again, because there's a large number of senior citizens that are gonna go into eternity without Jesus Christ.

Do you realize that there's two groups of people that we lose the most rapidly among evangelicals? Young people between the ages of 18 and 22. We have a lot of groups working with them. And the older people over the age of 55 and, frankly, nobody's working with them because as you say, they're retired. They're not going to be very useful in the church. And so what we need to do is say, okay, how can we mobilize them to be more involved in the proclamation of the gospel? Let's do it.

Jim Brangenberg: Well, and I think it goes beyond just the proclamation of the gospel to the living out of the gospel, because it's the kingdom part that a lot of retired believers have never been taught, that they can bring the kingdom to earth and then when they're retired, they're actually fully funded missionaries. They could go wherever they need to go. They don't need to worry about making a paycheck.

And what's amazing, Bill, is that there's so much wisdom in the people 55 plus. I like to go 65 plus. If you look at the wisdom that's capped in that, those generations, what a shame it is that stuff's not being passed on to the next generations.

I know you just, you made a comment as we're connecting up for this. You don't like, technology's not your best friend. But technology allows us to impact more people today than ever before. I have conversations all the time with people in other countries because of technology and to be able to share that stuff.

So how do you see any of your peers, people 70 to 90, pouring their lives into that tech savvy generation of the Gen Zs and the millennials? Do you see anybody being intentional about pouring their life into them?

Bill Wagner: One thing I didn't mention, I'm gonna take a step back. On the Global Strategy Forum we determined that there were 12 cultural building stones for any culture. And so we divided the culture into 12, what we called mountains, they were art and theater, technology, government, sports, music politics... we've got 12 of these and one of them is technology. And so we have one person that is very sharp in the area of technology and so we will have to get together with that person and say, start thinking about the older generation.

How can you do that with technology, with the older generation? And this person knows technology and so all we can do is inspire them to move further in that area. So to come together and to share and to challenge will be our next task.

Jim Brangenberg: And speaking of technology challenges, Bill, a lot of us are having problems with our computers 'cause there's constantly enemies trying to get into our computers. That's why we partner with SaferNet. You see it on my tv, behind me.

SaferNet.com is a company that's a kingdom company that absolutely wants to make our computer time productively delivered. They take care of web filters and antivirus and they take care of getting us out there on the internet with a VPN so people can't see where we're going and what we're doing. SaferNet's a great partner with iRetire4Him. We invite everybody listening to check out SaferNet online safernet.com. That's SaferNet.com.

Bill, can you imagine a time where the church wakes up to this huge idea that they've got all this biblical wisdom and all this spiritual maturity on the sidelines? And can you imagine a time when we can get those people off the grandstand and back into the game? What would our country be like if retired believers could be mobilized again?

Bill Wagner: I think it's a tremendous task, and Jim, I am thrilled to death that the Lord has called you to do that. I'm greatly impressed with you, and you will be invited to our next conference for the Global Strategy Forum to represent the older generation.

Now, how that's going to be done, I am not overly optimistic because in most churches the older generation is not appreciated, and I'm not entirely sure how we can do that. When I started these senior led old fashioned revivals, the seniors were very excited about it. The younger generation were accepting of it, says, we better let the old people have something. So how do you change this? I'm not entirely sure, but we need to work on it and find out what we can do.

Jim Brangenberg: I think we need to change it by just doing it. When you look at the spiritual maturity - how many years have you been a believer?

Bill Wagner: I've been a ordained minister for 81 years.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. 81 years. So you started following Jesus as a 9-year-old.

Bill Wagner: No I started following Jesus as an 18-year-old, and I was ordained as a 19-year-old.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. All right. So we had a little math problems, so that'd be 71 years, not 81 years. 'cause you're not 99.

Bill Wagner: So 71. I'm sorry.

Jim Brangenberg: No, that's okay. I'm like, oh, wait a minute. That's why I went to nine instead of 19. All right. So you've been following Jesus since you were 19 years old. Imagine what you have learned about following our Lord in those 71 years, and then you multiply that by 40 million retired believers who have been following Jesus from one to a hundred years or whatever it may be. When you unleash that wisdom, that spiritual knowledge, on the next generations, they could learn... think how many mistakes could be avoided if people would just start listening to people that are chronologically superior to them.

Do you have any of your friends that people that you hang out with that are looking for ways to put that wisdom, that spiritual discernment into action? Besides you, you've got your peers, but do you have other people that you hang out with that are like, Hey, I've got something to offer here?

Bill Wagner: Not really, Jim. The challenge has not gone out really for this group of people at this point. I think that's one of the major things we're gonna have to do. One of the foundational stones we're gonna have to build to begin to challenge them to say, what can you do? Now my Sunday school teacher that says I'm retired now, he retired two days ago and he says, I don't know what I'm gonna do with myself. And I thought, you don't know what you're gonna do with yourself? You are a wise Christian leader. You can do so much. And so I have to talk to him on a private basis and encourage him.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, get him a copy of iRetire4Him and get him on the phone with me, let's get this guy going. Let's kick him in the rear and go, Hey - because Bill, that's the issue. So many people know what they're retiring from, but almost nobody knows what they're retiring to.

So Bill, you've spent the last 25 years of your retirement being active and vibrant in the kingdom of God doing things all over the country. Do you have some words of encouragement for those listening today that are going, Hey, I wanna be like Bill, I wanna be at 90, running really hard?

Bill Wagner: One of the things that I've done, Jim, is two things and I'll talk about both of these.

One of them is I studied Joshua and Moses and both of these guys were 80 years old when they began their ministries. 80 years old. And they both worked until they were 120. So they had 40 years there of very good work at this particular point. And so I've always felt like I've got 30 more years to go before I can pass on because I wanna be like Moses and Joshua and these guys started at that age.

And so I think that many of our older people can start at this age. But one of the things that I tell my people is this, my older ones, is this: is that if I wanted to really be the person I think that God wants me to be, I would say I need to pattern my life after somebody. And so what I did is I said, I wanna pattern my life after somebody. Who do I wanna pattern after?

I wanna pattern after Jesus. And so I thought in Jesus. We know about his birth, we know about his ministry from 30 to 33, but we know practically nothing about his growing up right until the age of 30. Except we've got one Bible verse in the Book of Luke where he says, "and Jesus grew in stature and wisdom and favor with God and man."

And these were four areas. And so I have used these four areas in my life and every two months, I come back and evaluate my life and say, how am I doing in these four areas? And I use these with older people too. I say, even though you are old, you need to be active in all four of these areas. And they are wisdom, academic- you need to continue to learn and to grow. I continue to, I don't read books, but I still learn a lot from a lot of different areas. You need to be very active academically.

Stature. You need to run. I won't wanna brag, but I've run about three times around the world now and about two years ago they had a West Coast Masters track meet out in California where they had all these masters. And so I ran in my age group and we could only enter five events. And so I walked away with four golds and one silver at the age of 88. And I keep my body in good shape and therefore it is still going. So you've gotta have academic and physical and social - social is so important - favor with man.

And I tell these older people, that's why we have church. That's why we have our Sunday school, our life groups, so that we can have this relationship. And that's why you need to go out to the senior citizens homes and to visit older people so you can build a personal relationship with other people too. Many of our older citizens become couch potatoes and they sit at home. They have to be active socially.

And then the fourth one is a favor with God. Spiritually. They have to continue to grow spiritually. And some of our older people have been very great spiritual giants in the past, but they've let the spiritual life go. There's been no more growth in that area. So I say for our older people, be involved in all four of those areas if you wanna be like the Lord.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow. Bill, there's so much we can cover today, but we have covered a lot and I'm grateful. , And maybe this has gotta be a, maybe we'll have a future conversation about how do we work this together to motivate and mobilize?

Because there's so many, we're talking millions of retired believers all over the country, and that's not including all the people that are quote unquote retirement age around the globe. But Bill Wagner, thank you so much for being on iRetire4Him today. Thanks for sharing a little of your story. Thanks for those words of encouragement for our listeners, that's grateful to spend some time with you today.

I'm gonna close out the show and hang on 'cause I'd like to talk to you after we're done recording. You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose. So in the end we can say, iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 156: Why Your Living Room Might Be Your Greatest Ministry This Year

Jim Brangenberg: You've tuned into iWork4Him.

Martha Brangenberg: Wait a minute, you've tuned into iRetire4Him.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. Okay. Okay. No fighting here.

Martha Brangenberg: You've tuned into a joint iWork4Him/ iRetire4Him New Year's special. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every believer in the workplace - and retired - to recognize God's work in their lives, whether they're getting paid or not.

Jim Brangenberg: Happy New Year. There's power in gathering when people gather together outside of their workplace and in a home. There's an amazing transformation that takes place. Hairs let down and ties are loosened and comfy sweatshirts are dawned, or that ugly New Year's sweater comes out of the closet. We encourage every one of you to listen to the challenge of today's show, a short one for sure, and let God transform your New Year's celebration into something that is a little more iWork4Him style.

Martha, even though it's just another day, a New Year's celebration is something special, isn't it?

Martha Brangenberg: Oh, it most definitely is. I think so many people look forward to all that comes with saying goodbye to one year and hello to a new year and new opportunities. And to do that together with people that you love and care about is powerful.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, we've had quite a few New Year's type celebrations over the years. And Super Bowl parties, by the way. Yes. But that's a topic for another show... but we had quite a few New Year's celebrations in our homes in New Years past. Why do we do it?

Martha Brangenberg: I think what I just said, Jim, is that we look at New Year's Eve as this time to reminisce, look at the last year things, highs and lows, things that you've accomplished or things that have happened in our lives, and then turning that calendar over to the new year and anticipating all that might be ahead and doing that with friends and family and neighbors, or coworkers, whatever we're gonna talk about today, is so powerful because you have experiences that you've lived together and you're anticipating, and it's just one way, one of many ways really, to celebrate that together and to recognize it.

Jim Brangenberg: Heck, I just like to do it because I like to have a potluck.

Martha Brangenberg: You like the food.

Jim Brangenberg: I love the food. I love the punch. Martha makes this chocolate mocha ice cream punchy thing and I love hanging out with friends and I love bringing people in our home that otherwise would be at home alone. I hate the thought of people being home alone.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah. It's really not celebrating when you're sitting at home instead of ringing in the new year as people say. And for Jim - and Jim, for you and I, it hasn't always been at midnight that we've rung in the new year. We're like. It's 12 o'clock somewhere. (chuckling) You don't have to stay up and get all tired to start off your new year in order to celebrate together.

Jim Brangenberg: But I disagree with Martha. I do think you need to stay up till midnight. Because it's just a thing. It just is a thing.

Martha Brangenberg: Oh. But sometimes people would use as an excuse not to come.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. We start the party early enough. Like when we were at the beach in Florida, we invited all of our neighbors over and sometimes 10, 15, 20 of 'em would come. And most of them would peter out before midnight ever got to be anywhere close to happening.

Martha Brangenberg: Which really wasn't a good idea on the beach anyway, 'cause fireworks were gonna go off at midnight whether you were in bed or whether you were awake and they were gonna wake you up.

Jim Brangenberg: There was no absolutely no point in going to bed early in florida. Absolutely not. They were doing explosions way off into into the new year. We had, and I think really, if I remember, our friends, Mike and Kathy were the only ones that really made it up to midnight with us pretty consistently.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: And by the way, New Year's in Florida, pretty nice. Sixties for a low, windows are open, seventies for high. Pretty nice. Pretty nice. Yeah. But Martha, for some New Year's is about that special bottle of bubbly, and we don't drink, but when we've invited others in, we just let 'em know that they could bring alcohol if that's what they choose. Why is that? Why did we decide that was okay?

Martha Brangenberg: For us, it was like we're gonna be who we are and who we have decided and what we've decided to do in our lives, but we really didn't want to hinder other people from coming because for some people it is about popping that cork and tinking the glasses and we would do that with our sparkly apple cider. But, just wanted, again, to make our home feel comfortable for people and let them choose how they do that. Another thing that we loved about having especially neighbors over, Jim, on New Year's Eve, is nobody had to drive home.

So it was a safe environment for just keeping people off the road, not only for their own 'cause we didn't end up with people being drunk at our parties at all.

Jim Brangenberg: No, because people came to our house and they weren't being encouraged to drink by other people.

Martha Brangenberg: But they would have their beverages or whatever. But we don't like the idea of driving in traffic after midnight on New Year's, because other people don't make good choices and it could be dangerous out there. So having people in our home that live nearby in our neighborhood and coworkers that could stay close by, that was another reason that we like to do that.

Jim Brangenberg: And you could always be a designated driver and drive people home if they've had too much. But like I said, if you do it in your neighborhood, they can walk home or wander home or wobble home or whatever it may be.

Martha Brangenberg: Jim, what do you think it is about having a party in our home that helps to break down those barriers and actually let real conversations happen?

Jim Brangenberg: First of all, it's really cool because if you're having food, you get to pray over the food, 'cause if it in your home, you can do what you wanna do. And we like to pray over our food. It just, we get a chance to love on people.

It's our space. It's our space that's always bathed in prayer. So people come in to our home. It's a place that the Holy Spirit's already living and breathing and it impacts people, it impacts the conversation. But when somebody comes into your home, it's your domain and you get a chance to really just make them feel comfortable and loved on. And it's different than them being in their home. And because our home is different, it feels different and we just love having people come into our house.

Martha Brangenberg: I was also thinking sometimes at work people put up a fake front. And one of the things we've really tried to do in our home -

Jim Brangenberg: not like a false wall.

Martha Brangenberg: No. Like a mask. Wearing mask. When they come in our home, one of our biggest focuses is on making people feel comfortable and relaxed and be themselves. And so I think when you do that in an environment that's homey, people are more likely to take a deep breath and to relax a little bit and to enjoy the environment that's been set around them.

I always have made it a point to make sure that the decorations are something that people can look in and admire and pay attention to, and that it goes throughout the home and they feel free to go in different rooms and nothing was off limits. And all of that is intentional to just help people feel like it's not a mystery to be in our home and it's not something they should be afraid of.

Speaking of great conversations. You gonna interrupt this conversation?

Jim Brangenberg: No, I'm not, but I wanted to say some other things. I just, when we invited people in and made them feel comfortable and the inviting environment, but being able to greet people with a hug. People you don't always get to hug or shake their hands. It just, when you're sitting in your own home and people know that it's your own home, and they may, because we were believers and most of 'em were not. They just were kinda curious 'cause they're used to religious freak kind of people, but we were different than that and it was just nice to be able to share time with them.

It was something that was cherished and it was something that wasn't done in our neighborhood. And what I'm trying to figure out is how do we do it in our new little Missouri house? We may have to do it in the office.

Martha Brangenberg: We do have other spaces that we can use. So I know, I was just gonna say, you're talking in past tense because it's been a little bit of a challenge to get into that role here in a new location. And I think that's a good challenge for everybody is to say, you know what, maybe this is the year, maybe this is the year that you bite the bullet and you just say, you know what, there might just be a few people that attend, but we're gonna invite you over.

Jim Brangenberg: At the beach, we would put the fireplace video on the television. And we would turn music on very softly so as not to hamper conversation. A lot of times people have music really loud, then you have to yell and nobody wants to yell.

Martha Brangenberg: No, but it's nice to have a little filler.

Jim Brangenberg: It is nice to have a little filler.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay. Okay, so now can I talk of great conversations? Okay. So we wanna have great conversations in our homes when we invite people in. Jim, you and I are participating in some amazing location events this year in 2026, and we'd really love for you all to be a part of them.

And when we are there, we can have a great conversation together because I know that there will be many. Check out our events page for all of the details. Go to iWork4Him.com/events, but you just might see us in places like Maryland, North Carolina, Orlando, or Cincinnati this year just to name a few. So each event is unique and kingdom focused. We look forward to great conversations.

Jim Brangenberg: And if you're listening to the show and we've not met face to face, when you get to those events, make sure you come up and introduce yourselves. We'd love to hear from you.

Martha Brangenberg: Or even if we've met you before face to face please do so.

Jim Brangenberg: Well, but bring a gift.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay. (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: Sorry.

Martha Brangenberg: Jim likes chocolate.

Jim Brangenberg: I really like Mountain Dew better. I like dark chocolate, but that's not really, it's, I'm not looking for that kind of gift.

Martha Brangenberg: It's awkward to bring a case of Mountain Dew, Jim.

Jim Brangenberg: It is. A bottle's fine. Okay. All right, so let's talk about really the practicality, what we're suggesting. What we're suggesting is that you open up your home to guests, that you clean your home and prepare it for guests, and that you dedicate - you're just a steward of your home. You don't really own your own home anyway, and you're a steward of it. So steward it well and bring people in, whether you're working and you bring people in from the office.

Or you're retired and you bring people in from the neighborhood, or whether you're working, you bring people in from the neighborhood and you're retired to bring people in from your old office, however you wanna do it, but to invite people into your environment.

Martha Brangenberg: That was really confusing, by the way. (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: Just bring people into your house and don't just - here's my challenge. Don't just invite a bunch of church people to your house. Invite the people that don't know Jesus to your house and maybe intersperse a couple of church people so they can interact, you can intermix your groups. Mix it up a little.

Martha Brangenberg: Just say you're having friends over, and then that can be whatever you want it to be.

Jim Brangenberg: It's not Friendsgiving, its Friends...ynewyear.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah. So let's talk about some things that can make it simple, because I think another thing that's an obstacle is people think it has to be complex. It has to be pinterest worthy.

Jim Brangenberg: My mom hated having parties. She was always worried about all the details. She's freaked out about the details.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah. But if you have, say, okay, we're gonna do hor d'oeuvres or finger foods, or we're gonna do appetizers, or we're gonna do just desserts. Just say, Hey, just bring something to share and make it simple. Let them bring it, right, on their own platter.

And if they, if you need to get out some dishes, get out some dishes, but don't make a big deal out of it. Just try to be as graceful as possible, but allow people to carry the load with you. Don't make it so difficult that you're like I'm never doing this again. So I just wanna say, start off simple.

Make it a potluck of whatever sort. Like I just gave you all those ideas. Even have somebody bring - we had that for Thanksgiving, Jim, we had Sprite with cranberry in it. Or you know you can make the punch.

Jim Brangenberg: My son-in-law bit into one of the cranberries. That was the first time he'd ever bitten into a cranberry.

Martha Brangenberg: I don't think you're supposed to do that.

Jim Brangenberg: I don't think you're supposed to do that either. No, but so potluck is great. Besides potluck, everybody always brings your best recipes to a potluck.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: It is the delicacy of grazing. Unbelievable. And make sure somebody brings those little weenies that you put toothpicks in, 'cause those are always a good New Year's Eve party. All right. So but you could have a theme. Could you have a theme?

Martha Brangenberg: It is a theme.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay. Yes. You could say, come with like your word of the year, or maybe come with a something that you want, a poem you wanna share, or you could do some things too that can spark conversation.

So I know over the years, Jim, we have done different things where we've had. There are a lot of games out there: would you rather? Or I can't think of all of 'em off the top of my head, but they're conversation games.

Jim Brangenberg: Or a puzzle.

Martha Brangenberg: Or...

Jim Brangenberg: oh, no puzzles. Wow. That's funny. Did you hear that? Just live on the air. No puzzles. We didn't. Yeah, we don't rehearse this.

Martha Brangenberg: I don't think puzzles is really good for a New Year's party, but, hey, there might be a, somebody that's an introvert that would like to.

Jim Brangenberg: In your family puzzles work. It's like an all out sport, full contact.

Martha Brangenberg: Yep. But we wanna show the best of ourselves that day. Okay. And that may not be doing possible.

Jim Brangenberg: So because you're not providing alcoholic beverages, and I'm just telling you, if you listen to the show, please don't provide alcoholic beverages. The Bible doesn't say don't drink. It doesn't, but I'm telling you, it provides the wrong message. So just be alcohol free. If people wanna bring alcohol, it's okay, but be alcohol free. And provide alcohol free phenomenal beverages. If you want it, email Martha at I work the number four him.com, she'll give you the mocha punch recipe. It's fabulous.

It is. It's also, so the Sherbert Punch recipe easy, the Rainbow Sherbert punch recipe. Which is really rainbow sherbert and some Sprite and some Pineapple juice. All right. But provide, and of course, bring water. If you're a friend of mine, mountain Dew or Coke or some diet drinks, that kind thing.

Martha Brangenberg: So you'll drink Mountain Dew on New Year's Eve because it's late at night and you wanna stay up, right?

Jim Brangenberg: That's right. But provide an option of drinks and always have something diet, 'cause there's people that wanna drink chemicals.

Martha Brangenberg: You're so good at party planning, Jim.

Jim Brangenberg: And make sure you have, for party planning, you gotta have those blow whistle things that go, like a kazoo with the thing that flies up. You gotta have that and Party hats for New Year's Eve. Absolutely. Not to wear the whole night, 'cause that's ridiculous, but to put on right when the ball starts dropping in New York City.

Martha Brangenberg: Speaking of that, you think it's important to watch the ball drop?

Jim Brangenberg: It is important. Put it on your television - because it's fun!

Martha Brangenberg: It is.

Jim Brangenberg: And it does a whole minute countdown. And it's just the longest minute of the year. And besides they spend like a million dollars building that thing every cotton picking year. You might as well let 'em get some benefit by having you see it in your part of the country. And the good news is if you're in California, it's only nine o'clock when it's dropping.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah. You can watch it early.

Jim Brangenberg: That's right. Alright.

Martha Brangenberg: Or rerun it every hour.

Jim Brangenberg: So a game, you could do a game.

Martha Brangenberg: Yep.

Jim Brangenberg: You can do all kinds of things. If you have a well lit backyard.

Martha Brangenberg: The big thing is to take the initiative and make something happen because you might just open the door for future relationship with the people that you invite. They're gonna feel more comfortable with you, and then you never know what they're gonna experience in the new year where they may need to lean on your shoulder or talk to you, and they're gonna feel more comfortable and more familiar in a good way because they have had that time with you and you've shown that you just care about them and want them to have a enjoyable evening, which just builds on your relationship. And that's really why we do it, Jim. It's all about relationship.

Jim Brangenberg: Absolutely.

Martha Brangenberg: Love God, love others. That is what the Bible summarizes.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow. Somebody said that. Oh yeah, Jesus did.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah, he did. He did.

Jim Brangenberg: He summarized the entirety of the law and the prophets in two sentences.

Martha Brangenberg: And it's really not that it's about the new year, but it's a great excuse - there are certain times of the year that we have great excuses for having parties, getting people together for fun, Super Bowl, you mentioned it. That's another great one. So if you can't make it happen for New Year's this year, maybe think ahead. Think ahead, think about the Super Bowl and how much fun you could have, just having everybody together.

Jim Brangenberg: And praise God, this year there'll be an alternative halftime show.

Martha Brangenberg: That's right.

Jim Brangenberg: All right, so for more ideas and how you can do this kind of thing all year long, get a copy of one of our books for the cost of shipping only during the month of January. You can in fact call our one 800 number, which is not an 800 number. It's an 8 6 6 number 7 1 3 96 75, and put it in an order for one of our books or multiple books.

Maybe you'd like to give them away for New Year's presents to a whole bunch of your friends just for the cost of shipping. 8 6 6 7 1 3 96 75, or you could always email Martha while you're getting that recipe for that Mocha punch, email at Martha at iWork4Him.com. Martha at I work the number for him.com.

Martha Brangenberg: And we'll have all that in the show notes as well.

Jim Brangenberg: Oh yes, the show notes. Love that.

Before we go we want to make sure we thank each one of you and to make sure you know how much you all mean to us. Our audience is amazing and it's exciting every week, or if you listen to iRetire4Him, every other week, to share news stories of how God is using people right where they are to make an impact on the kingdom. You can help keep this message going through a simple program where you round up your purchases on your credit card. Just listen to the commercial at the end of the show today, or also go to iWork4Him.com/donate for all the details on our Swipe program.

So happy New Year from all of us at iWork4Him!

iRetire4Him Show 155: Retired to an RV - and a Pulpit

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days.

Martha Brangenberg: Welcome to iRetire4Him. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Check us out online at iRetire4Him.com.

Jim Brangenberg: Michael Turner considers himself retired yet what does that really mean? Does it mean he is on a perpetual vacation living in his RV? Or is there more work in his life? The question we'll be answering for all of us today is can there be work and play coupled with meaning and purpose in our retirement years? Will those years surprise us with unsuspecting ministry opportunities? From Michael Turner, this is all part of his story. Let's get going. Michael Turner, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Michael Turner: Thank you for having me, Jim and Martha. Appreciate you guys.

Jim Brangenberg: All right, so how long have you been retired?

Michael Turner: For only about a year, literally a year. And that was literally, I think finally pulled the plug on December 31st of last year. But I had about a five year wind down, which was pretty awesome. So I remained chairman of the board of the company that I co-founded nearly 20 years ago, so I had a great wind down period. So it wasn't quite as abrupt as a lot of folks.

Martha Brangenberg: That's so good for people to hear because that wind down probably has helped these months to look very different. So tell us how God has been using, during your retirement, the time you've had so far.

Michael Turner: Sure. Yeah. I moved to Georgia with my youngest daughter. She was recruited. She's a gymnast. She was recruited by the University of Georgia and I moved to Georgia 'cause I was at, during that wind down period. And it was easy for me to do that at that point in time. And not knowing where - this is a very roundabout way to answer your question, Martha, so bear with me for a minute.

Martha Brangenberg: (chuckling) I will.

Michael Turner: But anyway not knowing where I really wanted to live, whether I would stay in Georgia or do something different once I got down here, that was TBD. I just did not know. So rather than secure a long-term place, I literally bought an RV. At that point Anya and I, my younger daughter and I, were living in an apartment in the Denver area.

So I bought an RV motored out here to Georgia and set that RV up on a campground here in central Georgia. And I know this sounds bizarre, but I lived in that campground, in that RV for 16 months. Literally.

 (chuckling)

Jim Brangenberg: So did it never occur to you as you were winding down for five years that you should be winding up something else?

Michael Turner: That's a great question. It may be in part just personality, but I don't get bored. I tend to fill my time with lots of things and I was doing a lot of charity work at that point in time. I was never bored and again, still staying involved in my company to a degree.

There was plenty to do during that wind down period when I was in Colorado. And then, now coming here was much more uncertain because at that point I detached from a lot of the charity stuff I was doing back there and also from a lot of my friends, but still it worked out wonderfully.

You were asking, what has the Lord had me do since I got here? Once I got to that campground and got settled in, it didn't take very long before some of the skills that I had built growing up started coming in really handy, specifically around handyman kind of stuff. I literally was praying, Lord, use me for whatever you would have me do today if you'd had me interact with somebody, let it happen.

And there, I could tell you, I don't know that there was, there were any days when there wasn't somebody that needed help with something. So whether it was fixing a trailer, it was helping launch boats, it was fixing something, driving 'em somewhere, you name it. Just tons and tons of stuff. Very large campground by the way. I don't know, it probably holds. 200 rigs, something like that. And there's also 25 full-time resident families there. So it's a big, it's a big place.

But anyway, he started using me in those capacities and for whatever reason along the way, this family that was working there asked me if I would fill in on one of the Sundays where they do their miniature church service. I didn't even know they had a miniature church service, by the way. But they did, they had this kinda little mini church service thing going on. They asked me if I'd fill in. This was fairly early on when I was there and I said, sure, I'll fill in. I'm not a pastor though. Beware.

Jim Brangenberg: Wait a minute, you're not a preacher, is what you mean. But you were already pastoring at that point in time 'cause you've been ministering to other people.

Michael Turner: And I knew you were gonna correct me on that mentality.

Jim Brangenberg: That's good at least I didn't surprise you. (laughing) 'Cause I'm just, like we're not gonna have that kinda language here on this show.

Lemme just step back before you tell that story 'cause I really - you spent 16 months in your camper, yet clearly you've grown soft in your older age, 'cause now you're in an apartment. Or your trailer got really big. I'm just looking at the, your background. If you're watching this on YouTube, you could tell what I'm talking about. I've seen Michael in the background when he is in his campground. What happened? What happened to that bold, Paul Bunyan esque kind of personality that lived in a trailer for 16 months?

Michael Turner: That's a great question. This is too much information, but it had to do with declaration of domicile. I needed to declare domicile somewhere. And at that point I was literally declaring domicile out of Florida, 'cause it's one of the three states in the nation that allows you to not live there and declare domicile. But I needed real roots somewhere in Georgia, so I ended up leasing a condominium here. Now my RV is still down at the campground. It's in storage right now, but I pull it out and use it on occasion, so it's 15 miles away.

Martha Brangenberg: Oh, that's so good. Okay. So as we are just contemplating this, journey that you've been on, your wind down and then what God had you doing in the campground. Were you missing the daily grind of the job? Because I think that's a question a lot of retirees are fearful of. How did that affect you?

Michael Turner: That's a great question, Martha. I have not missed the daily grind. I have missed the people, interacting with my leadership team, with all our folks, I miss that. And obviously since I moved, I miss my friends greatly that are there in the Denver area. However, the missing the daily grind of the job, no. I started working really early and it was awful. Lot of work for an awful lot of years. Yeah, so that, that I have not missed.

Jim Brangenberg: So in that wind down phase, did you take any time to think about what God had been preparing in you for the next phase of your life? The campground thing is this transition phase, but have you been thinking about what God's been preparing for you next?

Michael Turner: Jim, I tell you, this is the third time I've said this. Great questions. I did not know what he was preparing me for at that point in time. I truly did not. I knew there was something on the horizon. I could sense it, or whatever you wanna call it. He put it in my heart, but I did not know what that was. I knew he was going to use me.

I knew he was going to use my personality. I love people. I love interacting with people. I love helping people. And I knew in my heart of hearts that he was gonna leverage that in some way, but I could not have told you how that would, how that was gonna play out. Had no idea. No idea.

Martha Brangenberg: And I imagine in a lot of ways it's still unfolding and gonna continue to unfold. So just to learn a little bit more about you before you retired, what kinds of things were you doing for fun and to fill your extracurricular?

Michael Turner: Sure. So I'm a fishing nut. Every chance I can fish, I fish. I fished today, so literally. I'm not pulling your leg. I went down, fixed the guy's camper and 30 minutes later myself and my pups, we were on the water.

Martha Brangenberg: You're saying, I dunno what happened. I just, I'm out here. How did that happen? (laughing)

Jim Brangenberg: So is this fishing or catching? (laughter)

Michael Turner: This was fishing. This was strictly fishing. There was no catching. I wonder why they even make me get a license because, yeah, i'm just fishing.

Jim Brangenberg: There's a necessary delineation there for the many of you who don't go out in your boat and cast a line in the water. There's a difference between fishing and catching. Fishing is what you do to enjoy some quietness and to torment the fish in the water with food (laughter) and for them to torment you by stealing your food without actually touching the hook. Catching is where you find a dumb fish (laughter) that says, I want what's hook, line, and sinker, and then you get to bring them home and eat them, and with a tasty breading on top, that kind of thing. So that's the differe between fishing and catching.

So, Michael, as you were saying before, during this last year, 16 months, as you said, you spent it in a campground and God revealed a lot of ministry opportunities for you there, helping people, really just meeting the needs of whatever they had for the day, whether it was having a conversation, helping some of those chronologically superior folks to you do some things that maybe you could do but they couldn't do any longer, but you were there to help people, but then you got asked to do something you don't normally do, which is preach. Talk to us about that.

Michael Turner: Yeah. So I'm gonna roll back just a little bit 'cause I'd forgotten to bring something up when we were talking about

Jim Brangenberg: That's fine. That's fine. You go right ahead. Take over the show. We'll just sit back and relax.

 (laughter)

Michael Turner: Okay, perfect. When I was back in Colorado and doing my fishing stuff there, I was doing a quite a bit of guiding. Guiding is a not the right word, mentoring for disabled veterans on the water.

So I knew that I could do something like that here. So when I got here part of what I did was I bought a boat and not anything fancy, I assure you, pontoon thingy. And I could take people out on the boat, sometimes fishing, just sometimes just to get out on the water. But it enabled a lot of conversations.

That led to some relationship building. Over time, I think some of that parlayed into that request to, Hey, can you help us fill in? And what had happened was there was an elderly pastor that was doing the Sunday services on the campground, and he got sick toward I guess this was probably a year ago, and that's when they asked me to fill in, maybe a year and a half ago.

Started filling in and then unfortunately he got sicker and I was filling in more and more, and then ultimately he passed away. Sad part of this story. Wonderful man. Wonderful.

Jim Brangenberg: Wait. Stop again. Bad language on the show. Sad part of the story? The guy dies, goes to heaven. That's a sad part?

Michael Turner: Yeah. He was just a great man. And I'm just sorry to see him go.

Jim Brangenberg: Loss in relationships, but the dude totally won. We need to have that perspective as believers. I've argued people like that all time. What do you mean? Yeah, that's not sad.

Michael Turner: The dude, that's, he won. He won. And yeah, there's no question where that man is, right? That's absolutely right. So it turned into, in essence, a full-time - that's not a good way to put it... an every Sunday opportunity to share the word of God. So I started doing that each Sunday and that really required some deep digging.

I started off doing it just topically, topic after topic. You pick it, holy Spirit. It could be one of a thousand things. So I just pick a topic, whatever the Holy Spirit stuck in my heart for that week is what I preached on. Ultimately, one of the folks there that's a full-timer said, Hey, would you be okay walking us through a book of the Bible kind of thing? I'm like, sure - John. So we started on John 1:1, and we're going through John now.

Martha Brangenberg: That's awesome.

Michael Turner: Then that morphed into, would you do a Bible study for us on Wednesdays? So now we have a Bible study on Wednesday and we're doing Genesis front to back. So it's turned into quite an experience.

Jim Brangenberg: So can you see how, can you see how as an executive God was preparing you for preaching and teaching?

Michael Turner: Oh, yes. Oh yes.

Jim Brangenberg: 'cause you had to prepare for board meetings. You had to prepare - had God been preparing you over the years? How many years have you been a believer?

Michael Turner: Since I was 21.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. So a few years.

Michael Turner: I'm 26 now, by the way. (laughter) I just didn't age well.

Martha Brangenberg: He was born a leap year.

Jim Brangenberg: In the Martian calendar, right? Yes. (chuckling) So sorry, that just totally threw me off. But can you see the correlation between what God used you for all those decades in industry today in pastoring? Where are the correlations?

Michael Turner: Oh, they're multiple. I think the two biggies were being able to communicate with any sort of person from any background, anytime, anywhere. Because that's what you get in the campground. You just don't know. These people, some of them are lifetime RVs. They literally live in their trailers. They live in their trailers and they move around the country. And some of them have been through some just absolutely brutal stuff in their lives.

And I think just those many years of being able to spend so much time with people as an executive and also growing up in the, my earlier years as a non-executive, just spent so much time with people that, that definitely came into play.

You mentioned also Jim, the preparation for presentations and all that, no question about it. My brain, when I'm preparing a sermon now goes, you gotta connect all this and you gotta get that answer right? You can't walk in there without that answer. Somebody's gonna ask you that answer. Same as I would've done in a business meeting, right?

So you don't get blindsided. That all that led to something, by the way, that led to me going, oh, I'm getting asked questions I don't know the answers to. So at the ripe old age of 65, not 26, at the ripe old age of 65, I signed up at Liberty University to do a master's in theology, specifically around apologetics.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow.

Martha Brangenberg: That's amazing because you're diving in to make sure that you're learning more so that you can help others. And I can see the value in that especially in this time in your life, when you have the time to invest in there. You're not taking away from anything, but, I have, I wanna just stop and celebrate something for a minute because I think it's incredibly unique, and maybe I'm wrong in this, that there's a campground that has a regular Sunday service for anyone to attend. So talk about that for a minute. Is that unique at your campground or have you heard about that other places?

Michael Turner: I've heard about it at other places. I don't know how common it is, Martha. But I have heard about it at other places. In fact one of the other gentlemen that is a friend of Jim's, friend of our ours, collectively is doing a similar kind of thing now. And I know there are other campgrounds that do it. But I don't know, you know, what percent of them do that, right?

Martha Brangenberg: You're filling such a need because I know all the years that we would travel on vacation, when we would travel the same place, we had a church that we always went to and people thought we were crazy. You're going to church on vacation? But bringing the church to them in a campground, really you're opening the door for opportunities that people may never enter a traditional church, but nobody's ever gonna see them again. So what's it gonna hurt? I'm just thinking of all the things they might be thinking in their head that you get to encounter when they enter the doors.

Michael Turner: I just got goosebumps when you said that. 'cause that is dead on. People come in there and many of 'em - now granted, some of these folks are very wealthy and they're in their big motor home looking things. But a lot of them are pulling a beat up travel trailer behind an old pickup truck.

And so you never know, right? You never know. But some of 'em don't have the kind of clothing that would make them feel comfortable walking into some churches. They're in basically camp attire. So they can come in there and the other thing too, and why I've decided to do the Liberty thing is, you never know what you're gonna get asked.

If you conduct it in a very open fashion, which I do, I literally conduct it as a almost more of a discussion than a -I call it a spray and pray. It's literally more of a discussion. You don't know what's coming your way next, to be able to answer some of the very difficult questions, the best degree that I could think of to go after. Now, granted the degree doesn't mean a lot to me, but classes is apologetics and that's what I went after was Christian apologetics.

Martha Brangenberg: That's fabulous.

Jim Brangenberg: If you learn your Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic, then I'll be really impressed. All right. So what have you learned about Michael Turner, about who God created you to be? Now that you're in this next phase of life, retirement.

Michael Turner: What have I learned about myself? I've learned that I have to prioritize in order to get anything done, 'cause you can stir all day long on "stuff." So you've got, what I was gonna share toward the end, and it's not even a question that I necessarily figured y'all would ask me, what were my lessons learned is really a couple things and are you okay if I twist over to that?

Jim Brangenberg: Sure, go ahead. You're in charge. You're used be an executive taking charge. (laughter)

Martha Brangenberg: He's exercising some of that.

Jim Brangenberg: You miss being in charge.

 (chuckling)

Michael Turner: I think some real keys to what I've learned about myself is to get up, and get up every morning or do this the night before, write down the top three things you're gonna accomplish the next day toward whatever mission God has you on. And get those three things done no matter what. Three things, not ten. Three. If it's more than three, may not get 'em done, but write 'em down.

Whether it's preparing a sermon, whether it's getting answers to questions you gotta get answers to, whether it's signing up for a class, whether it's working on a paper, whatever it is, the three things that you're gonna get done that day. Do that. So something I learned about myself, I've always been a list guy, but once I retired, I stopped doing the list every day. That caught up with me. It's really easy to stir.

Jim Brangenberg: In today's podcast, we are absolutely touching just the surface of what retirement can look like for you and how to prepare or to pivot from what daily life is looking like. We've got a resource that we'd like to help you, get a hold of to gain perspective, be encouraging, even adjust your thinking about retirement.

We offer our book, iRetire4Him, unlocking God's Purpose for Your Retirement. This book can be yours for just the cost of shipping. Email me Jim at I work for him.com to get a copy Jim at I work the number four him.com. Request a copy, just cover the shipping. We'll send you the book.

Michael, we need to be closing this out, but I wanna give the last question to Martha.

Martha Brangenberg: Okay, for the people that are listening, Michael, I wanna know this. When they're preparing for retirement, what kind of encouragement are you able to give to them? Because you've been learning as you've gone and we always love to learn from other people's situations, right? So sometimes we can maybe get there a little faster or avoid some of the missteps or whatever. What would you tell our listeners and how they can start preparing or pivot, as we said, in their retirement?

Michael Turner: I'd say first thing, know that it's a blast. Start with that. It really is. Secondly, I think, in terms of getting prepared, take care of your health. I know you hear that all the time. You hear that all the time, but I gotta tell you, as a guy that's lived in the campground for 16 months. I see it all day long. On the phone with one of my buddies that's fighting cancer right now. You have to take care of your health, exercise, diet, stuff. So I would say preparing for. Retirement, do whatever you can get. Take care of your health now. It'll carry you.

Secondly, Lord willing, it'll carry you. Secondly, friends. Stay in touch with your friends. Dig in deep with your friends. And don't lose that once you retire, because some of them will still be working. Probably most of them will still be working.

Martha Brangenberg: Right.

Michael Turner: So you have to shift around their schedules. Make sure you stay tight with your buddies. Thirdly, figure out a hobby. Doesn't matter what it is. If you have one, great. Dig in with that or find one. It could be anything. Musical instrument, a sport, preferably outdoors kind of thing. And don't try to do all of this at once in terms of just overwhelming yourself.

It's all gonna come, it's all, the Lord will move the chess pieces and it will all play out exactly as it should if you continue to stay close to him and pray, "Lord, orchestrate my steps today." Which is how I started this discussion way back earlier.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Michael Turner: As but I think that's really key is, Lord, what would you have me do today? What would you have me do today?

Jim Brangenberg: Michael, come next spring, and people breaking out their campers or motor homes from all across the country and they're heading out towards central Georgia. What campground will they find you at next spring?

Michael Turner: Lake Oconee, Greensboro, KOA, Lake Oconee Greensboro, Georgia.

Jim Brangenberg: So if you're looking for a place to stay, a nice long weekend, a week, or maybe the entire summer...

Martha Brangenberg: but for certainly over a Sunday.

Jim Brangenberg: That's right. Make sure, I was gonna say, make sure you're there on a Sunday so you can hear pastor preacher Michael Turner. I know I'm just giving you a hard time. He goes, undisguised as the average man preaching the gospel. Way to go. Michael Turner. Make sure you check 'em out when you get there to Greensboro, Georgia. What a great thing.

Michael Turner, thanks for sharing a little bit of your story for sharing some encouragement. For everybody listening, thanks for being with us today.

Michael Turner: Thank you guys very much. God bless.

Jim Brangenberg: If you're looking for a way to support iRetire4Him in 2026, just round up, we have a program through

Martha Brangenberg: Project World Impact

Jim Brangenberg: that allows all your purchases to be rounded up on your credit card and donated to our ministry. There's a link, it'll be in the show notes, or you can go to iWork4Him.com/donate to get signed up today.

You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose so that we can say iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 154: A Simple Christmas Challenge for Retirees

Jim: Welcome to a special edition Christmas edition of iRetire4Him. I know we're still a few days off from Christmas, but we wanted to have a special edition for Christmas so you could get some ideas on how you can celebrate Christmas in your retirement years.

Welcome to iRetire4Him. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Christmas is around the corner, and in your retired years you may think that your ministry opportunities are limited and rare. But today Martha and I wanna unpack a foolproof way for you to love on your neighbors this Christmas season. Martha, Christmas it's your special time of year, isn't it?

Martha: I think it's everybody's special time of year, but I certainly love it and embrace it and look forward to all that it entails, yes.

Jim: So what do you love about Christmas?

Martha: Honestly, everything, about the smells, the visuals, the reason for Christmas - the real reason for Christmas, that Jesus came into the world, and for all that we have made it to be as far as gathering and family and serving our favorite foods. Just, we really are very intentional at Christmas and I guess that's maybe one of the things I love so much.

Jim: This time of year can be hard on our retired neighbors. We've lived in retirement neighborhoods as young people twice in Florida. Now we live in a neighborhood full of all different kinds of ages, but let's talk about how this time of year can be hard on our neighbors that are retired. Why?

Martha: I think there's physical limitations that are really tough in retirement. Everything from wanting to put up Christmas lights to shopping, and just the extra effort that those things that take intentionality can maybe put on you, can make you feel overwhelmed.

It can be hard, it can be disappointing. I think a lot of those things where it's oh, I used to do this and now I just can't do it anymore. And I'm not saying that everyone that is in the retirement stage is physically limited, but the reality is that our bodies slowly don't allow us to do all the things that we used to do or we shouldn't do.

There's just that time when you shouldn't be up on the ladder anymore. So I think that can make it really hard on people. Also just not being able to travel as easily as maybe you used to or being limited in finances, so you can't do some of the things that you used to be able to do when you knew that you were in a income generating stage of life. I don't know. What else do you think of, Jim, that might be harder?

Jim: Because you're living alone, you're not going to work every day. If you're retired, living that American dream, sometimes it can get lonely. And I think that's really the point of today's show. We all live in a neighborhood of some sort or another. And whether you've done that retirement thing and gone to Florida, or gone to Arizona, or gone to some other warm climate, you may not be around family at Christmas time. Because your family's limited on how much vacation they can have. And coming down for Christmas every year is a little tougher on them.

Martha: And having multiple sides of families to even just split your time between. So that's just a logistical hardship.

Jim: So if you find yourself at home alone, you and your spouse, or you alone this Christmas season, we've got some ideas, some ministry opportunity ideas for you to live out because this is the iRetire4Him Podcast, and the whole idea is for you to live out your faith in your retirement years. We wrote a book about this.

Martha: Yes, we did.

Jim: And in this book, what we talked about was that, listen, it's not biblical to retire, just check out to go on vacation for 30 years. There's so many opportunities in front of you for living out your faith in your retired years. You just have more freedom in retirement than you did before you retired, but there's some intentionality that you can live with in these retirement years, and one of our favorite times at Christmas is to get involved with your neighbors.

We've done this, Martha. We've lived in neighborhoods that are all retired for the most part, and we've tried to celebrate those years. What is your favorite way? What is our favorite way to love our neighbors this time of year, Martha?

Martha: Feed them.

Jim: Food, the international language of love. Yes. (laughter)

Martha: And there's so many different ways that can go. And I think the bottom line is don't make it difficult on yourself and don't make it overwhelming, but just find it as an opportunity to say, you know what? I'm gonna bake an extra batch of cookies and I'm gonna share 'em with my neighbor. Or I'm gonna make this punch that feeds so many people, so I never make it because it would be too much for just us to have.

 (talking to Jim)

Martha: I know, the coffee mocha ice cream punch.

Jim: Yeah, actually I was go into the Sherbert punch.

Martha: Oh yeah, we have some, but that's just my example right there. What a fun thing to do. In Florida, Jim, we would set up a card table in our open garage and put some food out and invite some people over and just say, Hey, let's have some punch and cookies, or let's whatever it might be.

Jim: Missouri could do the same thing. We just have to have a heater running.

Martha: Definitely. Definitely. So we have to explore those options a little bit differently. But the reality is that I think a lot of us get hung up on, oh, how hard it's gonna be, and it's complex and it's overwhelming and it's gonna be expensive, and it's gonna be this and going to be that when in fact, I think we enjoy these simple things sometimes the most.

Jim: It doesn't have to be all those things.

Martha: Just taking the initiative to do something with our neighbors is a great place to start.

Jim: That brings up a good point.

Martha: Okay. What point would that be, Jim?

Jim: Do you know your neighbors? Do we know all the people that live around us? I think in Missouri we've gotten to know a little bit of them. It's a little harder. In Florida, we lived closer together, so we get to know our neighbors even quicker. In Missouri, the yards are bigger and you have to really go outta your way to get to know people.

But everybody listening, do you know the names of your neighbors? Just even, let's just say in front of you, next to you and behind you. Not even Kitty-Corner. Do you know those neighbors? Do they know you? Do you know their kids' names? Do you know their spouse's names? Do you know your neighbors?

Because it's awkward to invite people over for dinner if you don't even know their name. Hey, you wanna come over for dinner? Who are you? Just to get to know your neighbor's names.

Martha: This is a good time of year to, it's a great time of year having an excuse to do that. So maybe they've lived there for several years and you've just never taken that initiative. Make that extra plate of cookies, put a card on it with your name and your phone number and give it to them and say, you know what? We've never really officially taken the opportunity to introduce ourselves. Here's our information about our family. Just know that we're here if you ever need anything, have our phone number on hand. Merry Christmas.

That's it. And then hopefully they'll wanna share that information with you as well. But I love when we can take advantage of a time to do something we've always wanted to do, but we haven't. And say, you know what? This is the year. I'm just gonna do that with two neighbors. Don't try to attempt all 15 people on your block if that's too overwhelming, but start with just a couple.

Okay, this is a good time. I'm gonna tell something that used to happen in Fort Myers, which we only got to experience this for one year, but I thought it was so great. I'm gonna share this with everybody. We got socked. Do you remember when we got socked? You don't even remember. So, cute little game that the neighbors played, and I have the rules for it. And they took a picture of a Christmas stocking and it was just to be taped to your window.

And basically they just shared a Christmas stocking of some goodies with you, and then you put the sign in your window so that all your neighbors know that you've already been socked. And then you go and put it on somebody else's door and give them some little gifts. And then they've been socked. And the hope is that by Christmas or by New Year's, everybody right around you has reciprocated and everybody's been socked.

Jim: I was thinking when you said, sock, flamingo. We were flamingoed.

Oh

Martha: yeah. Yeah.

Jim: And we were never flamingoed or socked. I was picturing socks in my front yard all over the place. I remember when we passed that Christmas stocking.

Martha: But you never have to see anybody. You just assume that they're gonna enjoy it and be surprised and delighted, and then they're gonna pass it on to somebody.

So you put the rules in the little stocking so that they know what to do with this thing. And then you give them a copy to put in their window that says, I've been socked. And it's just a fun way of hundreds, if not thousands, of ideas that you can use to break the ice.

Jim: It's so important that we get a chance to love on our neighbors. And inviting our neighbors into our home is powerful because it's our territory. It's the place where we do our quiet time. It's the place where we pray together. And getting people in our home gives us a chance to love on other people. And that's why we're encouraging you to take some time.

You've got a few days to plan. How are you going to love on your neighbors this Christmas? Will you invite 'em in your home? It doesn't have to be for a whole meal. It could just be for dessert. It could be for a cookie exchange. Everybody loves Christmas cookies and people have some weird recipes that you might wanna experience.

Martha: If not, have 'em bring the coffee.

Jim: If they got some weird recipes, yeah. All right. Do you have to feed everybody? No. You could potluck, is one of the greatest things, and, we did for our, with our small group a couple years ago, we did one of those dirty Christmas santa things, not naughty Christmas.

What do they call it? Like white, A white elephant gift. Yeah, white elephant gift exchange. They called it something else. It sounded naughty, but it wasn't, and that was hilarious. People pulled some out, some would joke, gift exchange. Just find something in your house that you can repurpose and bring it and people found some really old stuff that they needed to get rid of long ago, and they wrapped it up to give it away. Some of those gifts from the eighties. So the funny Christmas exchange, it's just hilarious to them. People fight for the best gifts.

Martha: And really, Jim, what's the bottom line? It gives them something in common to talk about in the future, a memory together. It's fun. So there's something about us creating those endorphins or whatever, that allows us to have, gives us permission to have fun that we just sometimes don't do. And maybe you could play a game. There's all kinds of things you can do, but again, it's not about making it so elaborate and stressful that you don't enjoy yourself, but just have some people over.

We've played bunko with people. Look it up if you don't know what it is. There's all k i n d s of games that you can do to just break the ice and make some great memories together.

Jim: All right, speaking of gifts, we have a gift for you, our iRetire4Him listening audience. This is for a resource that could take you deeper into helping you gain perspective, be encouraging, even adjust your thinking about retirement. We offer our book, iRetire4Him: Unlock God's Purpose for Your Retirement. It's filled with great stories from Martha's dad that keep it entertaining and real.

And it's great information from us on practical ways to live out your faith in your retirement years, whether it's going back to work with intention or retiring with intention, but it's got lots of ideas in it. This book be yours for free and also sent to your friends just for the cost of shipping. Cover our cost of shipping and we will get the book out to you or your friends as a gift. Email me, jim@iwork4him.com to request a copy.

Martha: All right. So as we said, learning to love your neighbors is something all of us really need to and can work on. And so let's talk about some of the best ways that we can get started this year. What can we do before the year ends? Jim, got some ideas?

Jim: All right, cookies. Just make a plate of cookies. Give 'em to your neighbors. The sock thing was pretty cool, which just put treats and put it in your neighbors and have it passed around. That's a great thing. Have a small little Christmas gathering. Nothing fancy. Don't make people dress all up, but sometimes they might wanna dress up. But just invite people into your home, Christmas Eve party.

If people are gonna be alone, invite 'em to your Christmas dinner at your home with you and your family. If you've got some family in town, don't let people be alone on Christmas. That's not great.

Martha: You can even share a leftover plate of food after Christmas. Who doesn't love that, right?

Jim: Although we're probably having prime rib this year. I'm not sure I'm gonna share that with my neighbors.

Martha: Then you need to check your heart.

 (laughing)

Jim: I just really like prime rib. And if you're looking, aldi, if you've got an Aldi in your town, look for the Aldi Prime Rib Sale.

Martha: This show is not sponsored by Aldi.

Jim: It is not. Another free advertising for your local grocery store, aldi, we'd like to have one in our town. All right, but. Just find out your neighbor's names. Find out.

Martha: I was just thinking, we have a community parade in our town and so maybe it's saying, Hey, we're gonna go to the parade. Will you go with us? Because there's some fun in doing that together, but you don't have to plan anything except for getting there and going back home. And then you've created a memory together and you've gotten more people involved in the community that maybe would not have gone. That's just a gift that keeps on giving.

Jim: And Martha loves to share Christmas memories. I've got a couple of funny ones. The year, the Christmas tree caught on fire, and I think it was caused by the cat, but I don't know, it wasn't totally Christmas vacation, but it was close. Share your story, your Jesus story with someone at Christmas because Jesus did come as the Christ child at Christmas time. It's the significance of the season. No, he probably wasn't born at Christmas time. But it's fun to celebrate it at Christmas time. Share the story of how Jesus changed your life. That's what Christmas is really all about. It's not about the gifts because they all wear out. It's not about the trees. 'cause a lot of our trees wear out too. But it's about Jesus who never wears out. That good news. Never gets old.

Martha: Such a good point. So again, being intentional and just segueing into that, because it is Christmas, they have come to you or come at your invitation into your home or whatever the decision was or where you're going or what you're doing, but somehow tie it back to Christmas and make that what it's all about.

Jim: And if you're looking for an easy way to support iRetire4Him in 2026, we'd love to have you do that. Just round up. We have a program through Project World Impact that allows you to have all of your purchases on your credit card be rounded up to the nearest dollar and then donated to our ministry, your pennies donated to iWork4Him. Learn more at iWork4Him.com/donate and get signed up today. It'd be a great way to just get rid of your change and give it to iWork4Him.

So from our home to your home, we wish you a Merry Christmas. We pray that Christmas time this year will be different and full of ministry opportunities in your retired years, way more than you ever expected. Because in this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose so that we can say iRetire4Him. Merry Christmas!

iRetire4Him Show 153: "You Got 39 Minutes?"

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement days. Welcome to iRetire4Him. I'm your host, Jim Brangenberg. Please check us out online iRetire4Him.com. I retire the number 4 him.com.

You know when I first met Russell, he was running a mobile escape room company out of Colorado, a successful businessman. Russell has transitioned the company into a new owner's hands, and Russell and his wife Sandy are off on an adventure called the Retirement Years.

Russell has spent his working years as a teacher, a Dale Carnegie coach, a business owner, and more. This past summer, Russell and Sandy explored RV Life on Rush Lake in Minnesota. That's one of the 18 lakes called Rush Lake in Minnesota. But this can't be all there is to retirement, can it? Today we hear a bit of Russell's story and see where God is leading him in the next stage of life. Russell, welcome to, iRetire4Him.

Russell Jenson: You know what, thanks for the introduction, Jim. You nailed all of the lakes, all of the names, and all the business stuff. Good for you. Thanks for doing your homework.

Jim Brangenberg: I had some help online and your LinkedIn profiles pretty good. All right, so Russell, how long have you been retired?

Russell Jenson: Myself really since September 1st of this year, which is 2025. We call it official as we handed over the business. My wife retired in May of last year after being a speech pathologist in the schools for over 30 years. So a new venture for us here, for sure.

Jim Brangenberg: So literally you've been retired for officially for two months and a few days. Okay. All right. And this show is getting released in the middle of November of 2025, so this is fresh, and I love to catch fresh retirement stories because you've spent your whole life working. And when you were facing retirement, you knew what you're retiring from, you knew what you were walking away from, right?

Russell Jenson: Yes.

Jim Brangenberg: Did you know what you were retiring to?

Russell Jenson: No.

Jim Brangenberg: There you go. And that's what we talk about in the show all the time. This is show 154, I believe, or maybe 1 55. I can't remember what it is. But that's the point of this, is that so many people know what they're retiring from. They don't know where they're retiring too.

And that's what's exciting. As long as you could say, okay, God, what do you have for me? So you spent this last summer exploring retirement, doing the RV Life in Minnesota, the frozen tundra when it's melted. Talk to me about what was that like? As you started to explore, you had a pretty interesting summer.

Russell Jenson: Yeah, it was. We had actually purchased the the RV up in Minnesota the summer prior. So we knew we were both gonna retire, we're gonna be done. And it was gonna be a pretty much a full summer there. And you know what I would say, it exceeded our expectations. It just was, when you have nothing at that point in time on the calendar, that is almost scary, a little bit, to say.

We have nothing written down. Like when we did, when we were both working, we had this schedule and we had this meeting and those types of things, and my wife was in the schools. But to have nothing on a calendar can be a little scary.

Jim Brangenberg: I was gonna say freaky. For me, I just can't imagine having nothing on my calendar. But when you're sitting in an RV park, in a campground in Minnesota, campgrounds in Minnesota are spectacular. They're always on a lake. There's always boat motors humming in the background. Some guys like 25 horsepower outboard, pushing a, a 14 foot fishing boat out to go get some fish at five o'clock in the morning. The smells, the loons in the background. It's just gorgeous.

Russell Jenson: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: But you found yourself - God gave you a mission, didn't he? As, as you were relaxing, getting to know your other campground mates, what happened?

Russell Jenson: Yeah, I just learned that being there's probably about a hundred different campers in this campground, and it's actually a relatively nice place, i'm proud to bring my friends out there and it's pretty nice. But what I found is during the course of the week, really from Minneapolis, will show up on a Thursday night or a Friday, and then will leave late afternoon on Sunday. And get their week going and then just do it all summer long.

And in talking to people, I asked them, I said, you know what? How much do you get out of your routine in the summertime? Because in the wintertime you do the same thing. You're not coming out to the lake, not having to do all of those kind of things. And they say, you know what? We love the routine of the lake, but it does get us a little bit out of it.

And I said, does it get you outta church at all? And this is just a random question for them. I said, does this take you away from something that you do during the winter? And they said, absolutely. Yeah. Most of us attend some type of a church, a Lutheran church or whatever. And I said, what if I were to do a 39 minute church service first thing Sunday morning, would you come?

I said, and by the way, I am not a pastor. I'm not a pastor, I'm just a believer and somebody that feels like God has put me in a place to get his message out to people that are out of their routine.

Jim Brangenberg: So I'm gonna just stop in there for a second. Sorry. I know that's, you were sharing your story, but you said you're not a pastor and you did this carte blanche thing. I'm not a pastor. Huh. So, did you minister to people this summer?

Russell Jenson: Yes.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. Did you do a little teaching?

Russell Jenson: Yes.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. Did you find yourself shepherding anybody over the summer?

Russell Jenson: Absolutely.

Jim Brangenberg: I'm thinking you're a pastor, buddy! You don't have to go to seminary to be a pastor, for crying out loud!

Guess what? Paul didn't go to seminary. Peter didn't go to seminary. They didn't go to seminary. We have all, we have got to stop saying I'm not a pastor because you're not in a pulpit in some big fancy church. You were a pastor all summer long, full time and at a campground. Actually you were a missionary pastor 'cause you were in a place where they're lost on hopeless people and they needed to meet Jesus.

Russell Jenson: I would agree with that. And you know what? People ask me, are you ordained? And I'm like, I don't really know what that means. Does that mean school? I don't really know what that means.

Jim Brangenberg: It's important only if you're gonna marry people. Otherwise that's, you don't have to be ordained to be a pastor. You need to be ordained in order to marry people. That's just a rule.

Russell Jenson: It was interesting because I did introduce myself as not a pastor, but a believer and somebody that feels like Jesus would be part of our life maybe more than he currently is. And I'm just here to send a little message.

So what happened was they have a little Facebook page, and I said, you know what, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna see if anybody will show up. I'm gonna do a little service on Sunday. I promised them 39 minutes or less. One song on the front end, out of my little Bluetooth box, one on the end, and a very simple message on Sunday morning. And I said, start at nine. We'll be out at 9 39.

Jim Brangenberg: And everybody's wondering, so I gotta ask, where did the 9:39 come from?

Russell Jenson: I don't know. You know what? If you tell 'em it's gonna be an hour, they probably go, ah that's too much. But I thought if I take the under of 40 minutes, maybe people will go, I'll give the guy 39 minutes and we'll see what happens. So it was just a number that popped up in my,

Jim Brangenberg: I like it. All right. So you were trying to overcome objections before you actually heard them.

Russell Jenson: Yes. I gave the over/under six people. I talked to a handful and I put it on the Facebook page and nobody responded. I said, you know what, if I get six people, that's fine by me.

The first time I did it there was 32 people that showed up and they showed up with their bloody Mary's and in their golf carts and in their camp chairs, and they just set up in just a grassy area right by the docks and stuff. And I was it was enough to make you nervous.

Jim Brangenberg: The over and under - you should get a different bookie.

Russell Jenson: I know. So I decided I would do something that, that I knew a little bit about. And I did a a message on spiritual gifts. What does God have for us? How has he used me as a now pastor? How has he used my spiritual gifts to get me where I'm in?

And I told a little, a real quick testimonial about how I got here, and if you were to rewind the tape 20 years, there's no way I'm speaking the word of God to people in a campground. It's just, it's not possible. I just kinda lean in to say, God has plans for me. He is given me some gifts to be able to speak to a group, to lean into people, to minister to people and this is what I'm doing.

And so it was great. And now they're really looking forward to the next summer and they want me to do more and more of those. Maybe it's not every Sunday but there was some talk around the campground. " That was worth my time." And I guess really that's all I needed to hear.

Jim Brangenberg: Did you do it just one time?

Russell Jenson: Just the one time, yeah, first time in the summer. It got complicated with some things that were going on with our family personally and whatever. So next year I'm gonna commit a little bit more to this thing and put some time into it. And I'm really excited that they're excited about coming in.

Jim Brangenberg: Just a little jealousy here that you actually get to back to Minnesota, the, to the tundra when it's melted, when it's gorgeous up there and be able spend a little time around the lake. It's nothing like the smell of fresh water in Minnesota.

Awesome. Love that. All right, so that's one thing God was preparing you to do all your work life. Did you ever anticipate that?

Russell Jenson: Never. Absolutely never. Yeah, the last just handful of years, God has just taken me by the shirt and said, you know what? I have other plans for you. You have a business to run and whatever, but I want to try to set you up so when you retire, and I think that's why the invitation came, Jim, and thank you for that.

What's next? What are you gonna do next? What do you want to do when this, when the business season of your life has moved on? Now what? Are you gonna lean into God? Are you gonna go sit and go to Florida and sit around the doing nothing? And I decided I'm going to lean into the word of God and find out exactly what he has for me. So I even wrote it down before we got on this call. I said, I am going to listen for direction. And that's what I have been doing.

Jim Brangenberg: The good news is when you're in the quiet in the campground in Minnesota, you can hear a lot better and you're surrounded by nature. It always seems like it's easier to hear God's voice when you're out in nature. Is that the case for you as well?

Russell Jenson: Yes. I spent a lot of time on the boat just fishing and just doing whatever.

Jim Brangenberg: Pontoon boat, bass boat?

Russell Jenson: Pontoon.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. Yes. 25 foot, 275 horsepower, dual leads on the back? What do you got?

Russell Jenson: Not quite that big. It's probably about a 21 footer with a 90 horse Honda on the back.

Jim Brangenberg: All right, there you go. So you can pull the grandkids on a tube, but you can't pull 'em skiing.

Russell Jenson: That's correct.

Jim Brangenberg: Got it.

Russell Jenson: Yes.

Jim Brangenberg: Yep. Got it. Nice. All right. Do you miss the daily grind, Russell?

Russell Jenson: You know what? I saw that question when we talked earlier and honestly my business was never really a grind. I don't know if a lot of people you interview would say, "it was a grind. It was a grind. It was a grind." I loved my work so much that it was never a grind for me because at the end of the day when I finished doing the leadership training and team building, experiential learning stuff, I could walk away going, "I moved the needle with some people with this company or with the individuals that we work for, or the teams that we worked with."

And it was just one of those things. I'm like, this is what I do, and I just absolutely love it. Jim mentioned that I had a, it was an escape room. It was a mobile escape room where we would take a 53 foot semi-trailer. We made it into a 1960s prison. It was called Bust Out Colorado. And we would bring it to companies and people would get in these, into the escape room, and we would analyze team dynamics, both individually and how teams work together when things got difficult. And then we go back into the conference room and have a really interesting debrief about what individuals brought to a team and how this unique experience relates to the challenges they face every day.

So back to your question about do I miss the grind? It was so rewarding. It was a lot of work getting it out there and getting a park and set up and to have to deal with all the power and generators and stuff. At the end of the day, it was worth it to me, so it wasn't really a grind.

Jim Brangenberg: I can't wait to see how God uses all of that in the next phase. In today's podcast, we're gonna just touch the surface of what retirement can look like and how to prepare or to pivot. We've got a resource that can take you deeper in helping you gain a perspective to be encouraged and even adjust your thinking. We offer our book, iRetire4Him, unlock God's Purpose for Your Retirement.

This book can be yours for just the cost of shipping, just during the Christmas season. Email me, jim@iWork4Him.com and request a copy. Jim at I work the number 4 him.com, for just the cost of shipping.

Alright. As you mentioned, Russell, both you and your bride have retired. You both did it within a short period of time before you guys retired. What kinds of things did you guys do for fun together?

Russell Jenson: Yeah. We are big golfers. Our vacations that we go on always have the golf clubs along with us, and we have a little bucket list that we do every year on how many golf courses we can check off during the course of a year, and this year it was over 60 different golf courses.

Being up for the summertime, yeah, there's so many courses, but golfing has brought us together, things that we can do together. Be frustrated together on a golf course, on occasion. But that has really kept us together and we do we do love to travel. That's for sure.

Jim Brangenberg: What was your favorite golf course this year in Minnesota?

Russell Jenson: oh boy. There was one, actually, I'm wearing the shirt right now. It's called the Ponds, P-O-N-D-S, which is just north of Minneapolis. Very challenging golf course. Frustrating. But they're cheap up there in comparing 'cause you have to think about that in your retirement years, that you could play a lot of golf in Minnesota for a relatively inexpensive price. But that was just, that was a really fun golf course just north of Minneapolis.

Jim Brangenberg: All right, so you would golf before. You're still getting to golf now. What is it that Sandy - and I'm just gonna ask you to talk for Sandy. I should have probably said, Sandy, why don't you join Russell today? I didn't. Next time. - What is it that you think you see that new opportunities for fun for you to do? When you're up north, do you go fishing?

Russell Jenson: We do, yeah. Spend a lot of time in the water fishing in that area.

Jim Brangenberg: Catching or fishing, catching, or fishing?

Russell Jenson: Fishing.

 (chuckles)

Jim Brangenberg: Most people listening don't know the difference. I've spent a lot of time in a boat in Minnesota fishing, not very much time catching.

Russell Jenson: Yes.

Jim Brangenberg: Fish up there are much more wily than they are in other parts of the world.

Russell Jenson: No doubt about that.

Jim Brangenberg: So as you guys prepared for you to retire, to sell the business, what did you guys dream about as you started talking about this retirement reality? What'd you guys talk about? What were some of the things you had in your mind?

Russell Jenson: I wish I would had a really great story for you there, Jim, but one of the things it felt like it snuck up on us. And I think there, if there are people listening to this I'm guessing there are people listening to this conversation,

Jim Brangenberg: at least the two of us.

Russell Jenson: Yeah. Yeah. That would be one of the things that, that I wish I probably would've thought of a little bit more. Maybe that's some advice or a challenge that I would give this group is have those conversations before. What does it look like? We're both healthy and we're still. God has just given us such great health, and he is given us a couple of nickels in our pockets.

So finances aren't a huge issue for us. But if I were to give advice to the other people listening to this show would be, have a plan in place because I feel like. We are in a season right now, and as you mentioned, Jim, we really, it's just been so fresh, just a couple of months and when I said we have an empty calendar, that can be a little dangerous.

It's now what are we gonna do? What happens next? Where do we go? What's the next thing? So it's been spur of the moment things. So my encouragement to maybe others would be put a plan in place, and if they don't all fit into place, that's fine. I'm very fortunate to have a wife that is a, she just loves the Lord just like I do.

And we lean into God, we lean into his word in just what he has for us in the next season of our life. But I don't feel like we prepared as well as we probably could have.

Jim Brangenberg: That's, the preparation part, it's hard because where do you go? They don't talk about this at church. They don't really, the only thing they talk about in business is preparing for your finances for retirement.

I can't tell you I'm now in the business of talking about this, but until I started talking about this, Martha's dad was the only one I ever knew that lived out of retirement with purpose because most people just like to check out. They go on vacation and there's nobody talking about, Hey, in retirement, you're actually a fully funded missionary wherever you go.

You're fully funded. You don't have to raise any money. You get to go and in fact, you're welcome. Martha and I'll help contribute to your retirement as we pay our social security so you can suck it out. So that's good.

Russell Jenson: Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it.

Jim Brangenberg: Nope, you're very welcome. How do you, how are you gonna find out what God has for you in these retirement years? How are you gonna figure that out?

Russell Jenson: So I wrote this down too in preparation for this. And you're part of this journey with me, Jim, every Wednesday morning and the friendship that we have together, I put down on my calendar. I am with a group of men on Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Saturdays, and then I go to church on Sunday, wherever that is.

We'll find a church someplace. And real quickly - on Monday, I counsel four guys that are on their path to becoming closer to God, which is great. It's just a quick zoom call that we do for about a half hour Monday. Tuesdays, lead a small group at 5:30 in the morning. We have 35 guys on that call, and we go through the book of right now we're in the book of James, which is a great book if you haven't been in there

Wednesdays, i'm on a call with you from seven to eight in the morning with what, how many we have on there. 15 or 18 guys? Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: Somewhere between there. Yep.

Russell Jenson: From all over. And then Thursday I coach a young man over in Pakistan who is a new pastor. His name is Aly. And we plan for the Saturday service, either myself or Blake Maddox from 365 Christian men.

And we counsel and we coach him to put together a service for his people over in Pakistan. And he does all the translating. Those are my calendar items right now. And again, so God driven for me, and I've mentioned this before, you rewind the tape. 15, 16, 17 years. There's no way I'm filling up my morning calendar with God first things. That's where I say, I'm gonna listen for direction. And we'll just see where this takes us.

Jim Brangenberg: Is Sandy an early riser like you? Because that just sounds brutal, getting up that early in the morning every day.

Russell Jenson: I know. She is not. She is not.

Jim Brangenberg: That's why you're always in your basement in the morning when we're on our call. That's it. All right. So besides talking about retirement, is there anything you wish you had done to prepare yourself better for the next, you could have 30 or 40 years of your life ahead of you. How old was your dad when he was, when he died?

Russell Jenson: 92.

Jim Brangenberg: 92. All right. So you've got at least between now and then to look forward to, potentially. What could you have done to be better prepared?

Russell Jenson: I don't really know. I thought about that question. I'm not really sure. I don't know that it's calendar items for me. I don't think it's bucket list items. I just feel like maybe God has spoken to us and I include my wife on this one, is let's just take this a day at a time and see where he leads us.

People have big plans and we're gonna go here, we're gonna go do that and we're gonna buy this, or we're gonna conserve here. All of those different things that people talk about in retirement. I think for the two of us, we have decided let's just let God lead us to wherever that might be. And again, led me to, six different days of the week starting with Christian focused things. And I think that's a real start, that God is going, you know what? Buckle your seatbelt because I've got great plans for you. So now it's the time to listen for direction for us.

Jim Brangenberg: You got kids and grandkids spread all across the country?

Russell Jenson: No grandkids.

Jim Brangenberg: Tell your kids let's get going! You're retired.

Russell Jenson: We have one son. He's 25 and I would say he's pretty distant away from having any grandkids right now. He is still trying to find his way, the routine.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, I know, but I'm on number nine grandchild and I'm younger than you. Trying to figure out what is going on. We gotta have a class here for these younger kids.

Russell, as we close out the show today, as those who are listening are preparing for retirement, what kind of encouragement do you have for them?

Russell Jenson: Start with prayer. Just start with prayer. Jim mentioned earlier that, getting up early in the morning, probably not everybody's wheelhouse, but that would be one thing that I would do is just start the day and say, you know what, God, what do you have for me today? And careful what you ask for because he will direct you in places that I never felt that I would go and my wife would go.

And even though the calendar is blank at this point in time, which is a real blessing, God has big plans for every single one of us, and if we ask him for direction, we get into the word, get involved. If you're not in a small group at this point in time, try to get on one of those. If it's a Zoom or if it's an in person at your church or just, you know what, get together with some guys for coffee and just get connected with other men and other couples and just, you'll find direction.

When people gather, and certainly putting God first, but I think if you put yourself in front of other people and let 'em know what you're doing, and people seem to be envious too of, oh my gosh, you're retired. You're retired and we're so happy. We're just really happy. But none of this would've happened at all without the grace of God. There is no doubt about it.

Jim Brangenberg: And it's likely that what you're going to find, already seems like it's being put into action. All that leadership development that you did and all that teaching, the Dale Carnegie stuff, that God's probably got a plan for that for the next 30 years as you retire. I mean that, that stuff doesn't go to waste. He doesn't. He's just not gonna pay you for it. You don't need to make the money anymore.

Russell Jenson: He's already paid.

Jim Brangenberg: That's right. That's just fantastic. Russell Jenson, thanks so much for being on iRetire4Him today.

Russell Jenson: Thanks a lot, Jim. I appreciate you having me.

Jim Brangenberg: And as we close out today's show, if you're looking for an easy way to support iRetire4Him in 2026, it's just Roundup. We have a program through Project World Impact that allows all your purchases to just be rounded up to the next dollar on your credit card. And those pennies given to our ministry, iWork4Him. To learn more go to iWork4Him.com/donate to get signed up today.

You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose so that we can say iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 152: Don't Move to Florida - The Mindset Shift You Need to Retire to Purpose

Jim Brangenberg: Hey, welcome to a special edition of iRetire4Him. You know, I often get a chance to interview people on this show covering how they're living out their faith in their retirement. I would like to ask you, our iRetire4Him an audience, to recommend some of your friends and family, people that you know of in your community, that have rejected the idea of the American dream of retirement and have embraced living out their faith in their retirement, their days being full of meaning and purpose. Please email me jim@iwork4him.com and make recommendations. That's Jim at I work the number four him.com.

Now, here's what I really wanted to say besides that today on iRetire4Him, I wanted to say one other thing. You know, we're getting close to 2026. We're just a couple of months away, and iRetire4Him is a mentality that needs to be adopted by literally 50 or 60 million retired believers across this country. I would like to put this book, iRetire4Him, in your hands for free. Just pay the shipping and handling.

Inside this book Martha's dad and myself wrote, here's what it can look like for you to live out your faith in your retirement, whether you're quitting your regular day job and starting a new job because you still need to make money but you wanted to do something you love, or whether you don't need to make money anymore. You're a fully funded retired missionary, and so you're going to volunteer full-time somewhere or volunteer some of your time somewhere. Or maybe you can't work any longer, but you live in a neighborhood. So here's some things you can do.

One of the big things we suggest at iRetire4Him is that you do not sell your house where you have lived for the last 40 or 50 years and move to Florida, Arizona. We totally recommend that you go on vacation to Florida, Arizona for a month, a year, or whatever, so you can get outta the cold and the snow if that's what you've gotta do. But do not destroy the family relationships that you've got. Do not neglect to use all of the relationships and the influence that you have in the town where you've lived for the last 20, 30, 40, 50 years, maybe even 70 years.

It is an absolute disaster when retired believers bail on their families and bail on their communities to go to the south because the weather's nicer. Believe me, when we live in heaven, the weather will be fantastic. It's just a few years away. Don't go and move away because then you only see your kids and your grandkids a week a year. They need to see you every week. They need you to be involved in their lives. Please don't sell your house and move to Florida. They don't need your vote anyway, if that's what you're thinking. I gotta go to Florida 'cause it's a great. It's a great state.

I lived there 20 years, but your home state where you live needs you more because your family is likely somewhere nearby, and the people that know you are somewhere nearby. Inside the book iRetire4Him it really talks about the biblical basis for the paradigm shift that we need to take from believing that the American dream of retirement is a biblical reality - but it's not- and shifting that paradigm to realize that the Bible never calls us to check out and go on vacation for 30 years. We are called to live with meaning and purpose until our pulse stops!

And iRetire4Him will give you the encouragement for that. This is not a theological book. This is a perspective from somebody who was retired. My father-in-law, Ted Hains, has now gone to be with the Lord, but Martha's dad talked about - in here, there's stories of him living out his faith in his retirement, and he talks about how he tried to just go on vacation. And my mother-in-law, Elaine said, you are getting boring, Ted. You need to go find some purpose.

And he did for almost 30 years of retirement. Okay, 25 years of retirement. Then I share my perspective on what does it look like? What are some ideas? One of my, one of my greatest ideas, I believe the Lord gave me, was, if you really wanna move, move into a neighborhood full of young families, because you know what? The desperate need in this country is old people, or as I call 'em in this book- because of a friend named Grant Skelton giving this idea - chronologically superior people, moving into neighborhoods with young families.

Why? Because those young families don't often have access to grandparents, maybe not even access to their own parents because of divorce and destruction of the family in this country. Move into a neighborhood, not with a bunch of other old people 'cause they all get cranky. You need to move into a neighborhood full of young people 'cause they desperately need you to help teach them. And we talk about that in this book as well.

So iRetire4Him, it could be a small group study if you say, Hey, we need 10, 12 copies, we'll just charge you the shipping and we'll get 'em in your hand so you can use 'em. We had a small group out of North Carolina do this last year and they had a great time. We're even willing to, Martha and I are even willing to call into your small group via Zoom and share some things directly with you. No costs. We just really wanna pass this message on. So please consider contacting us on our website. IRetire4Him.com, or iWork4Him.com.

Or you just email me jim@iwork4him.com. We'll send you some books just for the cost of shipping. Get this into the hands of all your friends who are gonna retire next year. Give it to 'em as a Christmas gift. It doesn't even cost you anything but shipping. That's incredible. But read it yourself. Be encouraged. God has such a deep plan for your retirement years. Start planning those now.

I know you know what you retired from, but do you know what you're retiring to? iRetire4Him is a mindset that we all need to have. I'm Jim Brangenberg. I think you're awesome. And I really am encouraged that this book could transform your life, of course, 'cause it's full of scripture, but because it's the mindset that God wants us to have. Till next time, just remember, as long as you got a pulse, you have a purpose. And if you're not dead, you're not done.

iRetire4Him Show 151: Full Surrender for Full Satisfaction

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years can be 30 years filled with meaning and purpose as long as you connect your faith and your retirement years. That's why I'm welcoming you to iRetire4Him. I'm your host for the day, Jim Brangenberg. Hey, check us out online, iRetire4Him.com. That's iRetire4Him.com.

You know, when you start a job or a business or an organization in your late forties or early fifties, can you imagine it still being a major part of your life in your eighties? Founders start businesses with a dream of leaving a legacy and making a lot of money. But our guest today has done so much more than that.

Buck Jacobs started the C12 Group in 1992 with the dream of mentoring and discipling business owners and leaders to let their faith impact their work and to teach business people how to run a kingdom company. At first, it was a small venture, but today C12 has over 5,000 members in cities across the country and has caused other organizations to explode as well through strategic alliances.

Buck Jacobs turned over the reins of the day-to-day operations 20 years ago, and in that time, two other leaders have taken his place, but this is Buck Jacobs and his c12. So his legacy is C12, and his involvement in this country and around the world is always C12 related.

Buck may be well in his retirement years, but his energy, enthusiasm, and encouragement are contagious and he's an inspiration to many that retirement isn't just another phase of life, but an opportunity to live out our faith unfettered by schedules and lived out in obedience. I'll let Buck tell the rest of the story. Buck Jacobs, welcome to iRetire4Him.

Buck Jacobs: Thank you, Jim. It's my pleasure to be here. I'm excited. I have to, I gotta straighten you out on something. I have not retired. I have only been repurposed.

Jim Brangenberg: I just said your retirement years. I didn't say that you actually retired. You turned over the reins 20 years ago, but really you've been repurposed. You started in 1992, you turned over the reins 20 years ago.

Buck Jacobs: I didn't really give it up for two years ago. I really gave it up about a little over three years ago in terms of my technical relationship with C12. I have no position with C12, no responsibility to C12. Of course, occasionally they ask me some advice or I might speak to some new employees, but that's just what I do. But what I've always taught and believed, there is no such thing as retiring from serving Christ. You just do it in a different way.

So here's what happened to me, and I'll get to your question. When COVID hit, C12 had to back away from our normal format of meeting around the conference table and we had to do it quickly. And fortunately we had some young smart guys on our staff that knew about Zoom. And so we began zooming all of our meetings and our one-on-ones.

I learned to zoom and it was wonderful for me because I didn't like to travel long distances. But with Zoom, I could be everywhere. I could zoom into the C12 in Brazil and pray with and encourage the guys there or the people in Malaysia or anywhere in the country. And in that process, I met a lot of new people that I just didn't know and not necessarily as a part of C12, but they would hear about C12.

I'd get guys calling me up and say, how did you do it? How did you put together a board of directors that has taken the company from where you left it with some semblance of continuity to what you left? And I have a opportunity to build a relationship with somebody in Michigan or Ohio or wherever. I said, this is what we do and the way we do it. So it really didn't change what I was doing before. It was just done in a different way, primarily by Zoom and telephone.

And I developed a group of guys that I would talk to, sometimes once a week, sometimes once a month, but on a regular basis with situations that they had. I found that there's a lot of younger guys out there in the world that don't have an older voice in their life.

Jim Brangenberg: That's for sure.

Buck Jacobs: And they love it. They love to have somebody, so of course I don't charge for what I do now. It's a relationship, and I tell 'em, I'll talk to you as long as you feel it's worthwhile. When you feel it's not worthwhile anymore, you'll move on and someone else will fill your place. But we'll be still friends and it's been great. I got a lot of stories about that you may not want to hear today, but you probably will sometime.

Jim Brangenberg: You never know. You never know, but - just a basic question. I understand that you never planned on retiring. I only met you when you were in your seventies, so you're already still going pretty hard, but did you ever expect your quote unquote retirement years to be so full?

Buck Jacobs: No. In the first place, I didn't have any vision for being this old. Nobody in my family ever lived past 56. So I didn't have any models, but I never really wanted to be old. I never wanted to do nothing. And when Bob Mack and I sold the business to Mac Company, which was my introduction to Christ centered Workplace. In about 1993 and we moved to Florida to start the golf ministry, we moved right alongside one of the Dell Webb retirement centers and started meeting a lot of people that were retired. And I didn't wanna be like them.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. I call that purgatory on earth, Buck, since I lived in Florida for 20 years in two different homeowners associations. I call that purgatory on earth. (laughter) People pay money to go be miserable, be surrounded by other miserable people.

Buck Jacobs: Yes. And they're miserable to everybody. We were doing some work, doing devotions with a nursing home down there and taking our kids to see the older people there once a week, and it was just great. But when we'd leave there and go to a restaurant or snap into Publix, all people in there look at us like, you're scum.

What are you doing here? You're not old enough. I was 48, just a kid. So I never wanted to be that. I never looked at that life as something that I wanted. I've always gotten my thrills from making a difference and you just sit and watch TV all day, you're not making much of a difference.

God in his kindness just moved me from a relationship in C12 where I had obligations to a relationship with him, where I only have his obligation. He's my accountability partner and and this way of doing it with Zoom and phone calls, a few in person things, but for instance, yesterday we got back from a trip to Michigan, Grand Rapids, Michigan. About five years ago, Mike was up there getting the group started up there and a young guy that wasn't gonna be able to be in the group came up to Mike with a question and Mike told him, I don't have time to really deal with that question with you, but you need to talk to a zaken.

He says, what's a zaken? He said zaken is this Hebrew word for elder, and one of our founders, the founder of our company, become a zaken after he left the company. A zaken in the old olden days was an older man who was too old and tired to fight or farm, which is all they did, and he couldn't go out anymore, so he just stayed home. That's the only option they had for their later years.

But they would gather together by the gates of the village, by the city gate, and the young guys are going in and out. And zaken were more than happy to talk with them, share with them, sometimes even adjudicate minor issues with them.

And I said, what a way to end your career. Just, I can do it by phone or Zoom. I don't even have to leave my home to do this. And it can be anybody anywhere. I talked to our guy in Brazil every week for five years. I talked to this guy in Michigan, his wife was in a horrible car accident a year and a half ago. Guy could show you a picture of the car. It looks like somebody took a piece of aluminum and just wound it all up. And when the paramedics got there that at the scene of the accident, they said, no sense looking in there, nobody could survive that.

She'd been parked behind a semi and another one had come full speed and driven her into the one in front of her, and blew her up in the air. And she spun around and she landed in the only place in that car where she could have survived. She's about five foot two or three. She landed underneath the steering wheel in front of the front seat.

And there was like a little coffin place there, just about that big. Now, she was badly hurt. She had a tore, horribly broken left leg that they had to bolt back together and she had that done twice. Her husband and I praying with them through this rehab.

This last weekend we got to go up to Grand Rapids. Her husband has a ministry called The Movement and he has six or seven Christian leaders come once a day to Grand Rapids and speak to the people that he invites to the meeting. Yesterday he had about 180 people there. They had some great speakers. Alan Barnhart was one of them. Illinois.

Jim Brangenberg: Nice. There's one guy I never got a chance to interview. But did you grow up understanding that God loved business, that your work mattered to God, that you didn't have to quit your job to going in full-time ministry?

Buck Jacobs: No, I didn't. Our family did not believe in God. Our family was an agnostic family as far as God was concerned. My dad was in World War II for three years and when he came home, what he experienced made him question whether there was a God. So we were respectful towards God, but we didn't have a relationship. I didn't have a relationship with God until I was 35 years old.

God did a whole series of maneuvers to get me to a place where I received Him, and he absolutely reached down and pulled me out of the muck and sent me, I did a 180. I was all worldly, all for money, sex, and power, living a very dissolute life. And then one day it all changed. And then the next day, my best buddy called me from Chicago- I was living in Los Angeles - and invited me to join his business, which he had committed to Christ because he wanted to show the world that he could be a Christian and a business success at the same time.

I had no idea what that might mean, but timing was good. I would've gone and swept the floors because we were that tight and I was that broken over what had happened in my life. So I joined him, and we spent 10 years together with a, with the mission statement that said this business exists to bring honor and glory to God and to do business in a way that his son will be able to say, well done, good and faithful servant. So we did 10 years worth of business, multiplied seven times in the 10 years.

And it was great. We had a wonderful experience and then we decided to sell, which was a mistake. Should never have done that. Should have gotten some people who had the same vision and heart that we did to keep running it 'cause - anyway, but we did.

Jim Brangenberg: No, I'm gonna hang there for a second because that's an issue still today. You're talking 40 years ago, but that's still an issue today. Great christian companies run by great believers that have a great kingdom culture and in the end, they sell to the highest bidder and in six months or less, everything they worked for gets destroyed.

Buck Jacobs: Which is exactly what happened to us. And that's what I learned. That's where I learned that you can't do that.

Jim Brangenberg: And there's great companies out there now like Perpetuate Capital outta Reno, Nevada, that are saving those kingdom companies. There's groups popping up across the country trying to perpetuate that stuff, but that's an issue. Christians need to understand that. Believers who own businesses need to understand.

Buck Jacobs: The whole problem is they're poorly taught, Jim.

Jim Brangenberg: I understand.

Buck Jacobs: And the seminaries teach pastors poorly and the pastors go into their career and they do a poor job of explaining what life is really all about for a Christian. And consequently, that kinda stuff goes on. Consequently, divorce happens. Consequently, nothing good comes out of it. What's being normally experienced in the Christian world today, because it's like we're given the wrong model. If they don't understand that everything is God's, everything is a gift, we're to use it to his glory, to build his kingdom. And that includes the talents and the gifts that we have internally and naturally, and the education that gets provided to us by whatever, and on. Resources and opportunities. It's all God's.

Jim Brangenberg: So what do we do, Buck, though, to take the wisdom that you've gotten in your eighties and get it to the people that are about ready to retire? To let them know, Hey, retirement's just a different phase in life. It may mean that you're a full-time, fully funded missionary to do whatever you wanted, whatever God's calling you to do. You don't maybe need a paycheck, but Buck, this is an issue. There's almost a hundred million retired believers in this country.

No, they're not a hundred million. There's 50 million retired believers. A hundred million working believers.

Buck Jacobs: Yeah. I know. It's a very frustrating, the only thing I say is, oh you know the old story about the guy that's throwing the starfish back in the ocean? And guy comes up to him and says, what are you doing? He says it's one starfish. How could that be important? Said, it is to that one.

So that's what I'm doing right now. I'm looking for ways to expand the message. That's what Youversion, this thing that you're seeing in Youversion, in my heart, is a way to open the door to really solidly teaching the work of the Holy Spirit and the responsibility of the Christian to God to use the gifts and talents that he's got to build the kingdom. Now, he may do it as CEO of a publicly traded company, but his main purpose, his vision is Kingdom, Kingdom business.

Jim Brangenberg: Right. And Buck's referencing the Youversion Bible app. He just released a 30 day study on Romans 8 I highly recommend. I've been going through it because I know Buck's been a friend and it has been very impactful, very impactful.

Buck, let me ask you a question. I didn't tell you I was gonna ask, but I warned you at the last minute I was gonna ask you. Alright, you spent all these years in business. You've got all this experience and as we understand it now, our years on Earth are preparing us for the work that we will do in heaven. Yes, we will work in heaven. A lot of times that's a part of theology that's missed out.

Everybody's got this vision of we're floating around on clouds playing harps. In no way. What? How horrible would that be? I'm sure it would still be cool because it's in heaven, but still... have you thought about all the experience and the giftings and the wisdom, the knowledge, all that you've been given all these years, how God may be planning to use that when you hit the streets of gold one day?

Buck Jacobs: I've never really given that much thought, and I don't really care. I'm gonna be very happy just to be there. For somebody that started where I did, end up in heaven, hearing the Heavenly choir, seeing Jesus, seeing Paul, seeing a bunch of people that are there ahead of me, I don't care if God wants me to sweep the floors.

I don't care how he uses what he built into me, that's totally up to him. In fact, I feel that way already. I'm not looking for the next deal. I'm not looking to make more money or to gain more reputation and so forth. I'm just striving to be obedient to God's spirit, day by day, minute by minute, and run out the clock.

I'm running a race that was set before me - Hebrews 12: "run with endurance the race that has been set before you, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of your faith," and so forth. So that's my thing. It has been for the last, probably the last 10 years. I don't give a rip what the world thinks or what they say. I know where I'm founded and I know where I'm going. So when I get there, if he says, Buck, I want you to go dust off Mars. I'd say, Okay.

 (chuckling)

Jim Brangenberg: That would be a task now, wouldn't it? Dust off Mars. I like that. That's a good one.

So when you look at your friends, your peers you hang out with, you've had guys go through C12 now for 33 years, there's a lot of those guys who are quote unquote in their retirement years who've become friends of yours, I am sure. How have you been able to speak wisdom into them about retirement and the fruitlessness of checking out, going on vacation for 30 years and the fruitfulness of seeing those retirement years as years for meaning and purpose?

Buck Jacobs: It's one-on-one with a lot of them. That's just, I don't have a real business reason or some ministry opportunity to speak with them, but that's what I'm doing on Youversion

Jim Brangenberg: Okay.

Buck Jacobs: By teaching them the Holy Spirit, leading into full submission, full commitment to God, not using my wisdom and my strength and my cool to do things, but trusting in him, believing that he doesn't give a rip about how big something I build unless I'm building it for the kingdom and his direction. I can build it for the kingdom in my own strength, and it doesn't mean anything for him, to him.

And it's not going to gain me any rewards in heaven, but I can be obedient to him, listening to his leading for what he wants me to do - I don't see that changing much when we get to heaven. I just - in that study today, and I don't know if you read it or not - my comment was really, it's all about him. I'm content. As the sharing rolled out today, the guys in this study and there's 40, there's 50 of them, they're being touched. The comments they're making are telling me they're being touched by the Holy Ghost. And my comment was, I'm listening to you guys, I'm reading your comments today, and in my mind, I go back to hearing Andrae Crouch sing My Tribute in 1983.

"How can I say thanks for the things that you've done for me?" And so forth. And so that's my thing now, I just... anxious to be obedient. I'm learning to hear the spirit more clearly. I don't have it all together, but what I have, I want to share with people. That guy up in Michigan, his life has been changed forever because we met and his wife's life has been changed forever because we met and their girls are gonna be changed forever because we met.

He's been transformed from an everyday Christian to a disciple of Christ, and it shows. He's got a big job. He is a regional manager for medical equipment with... I can't think of the thing. They're like rays, they shoot, they do it with rays. Anyway, and he makes big money. His wife, before she was injured, she was one of the best known personal injury attorneys in western Michigan. She lost that business because she did recover, but not quick enough to hang on to the clients. She had, I think she had four other attorneys and nine paralegals working for, and I got to see her this last weekend.

I went, primarily I wanted to see her. Her husband was telling me about it. I've walked through the whole thing with them, but maybe three or four months ago, he said, Hey man, Tara's really feeling bad because she thinks she'll never be able to run again, 'cause she was a runner before she was injured and run marathons. And I said, she's gonna run again. He said what? Tell her that I said she will run again.

I've got a picture in my phone of her finishing her first 5K about six weeks ago. It's like seeing chariots on fire all over again. Glow on her face and her kids. Those are the things that I wanna work for now. And you have to just let God provide him because you can't tell who is going to be really open to more of God or not, especially if there's a cost and there's always a cost.

Jim Brangenberg: But what's the cost to you? You're having fun. You're talking to people all across the world. You're getting to pour your life and wisdom and knowledge into them. What's the cost to you at this point in time?

Buck Jacobs: The cost is to yourself. You gotta give yourself up completely, surrender to be used by God in any real significant way. If any of the old self is hanging around, that part is painful. The part that's submitted to God, realizing that God works everything together for good, so everything that I receive either is sent by or permitted by God. It's good. Doesn't look good to me, but to him it's good. That's good for me. The hard thing is not to do anything.

The hard thing is get up in the morning and I look at my calendar. I don't have anything. I don't have meetings, I don't have calls I have to make, I don't have stories I have to write or, today, the only thing I had on my calendar today was talk to you, which is wonderful. I love that.

But without that, my day is what are you here for? And why are you leaving me here, Lord? But he's teaching me brokenness. He's teaching me humility. He's teaching me to do and think ways that, that I didn't before. I was a good Christian. In the eyes of the world, they would say, Buck's a really good Christian. He's raising his kids God's way. He's going to church every week. He's leading his company for Christ. But there was still parts of me that was not sold out to God, that was still wanted my way of some things, and there was still some temptations that would grab me every once in a while.

So to tell you, I had a experience down in Texas. I was speaking at a conference down there not too long ago. And they had a group of us speakers up on stage for a q and a session, and one guy raises his hand and he said Mr. Jacobs, you're, I think you're 78 now. And he said how old did you have to be before you didn't sin anymore? I said I can't tell you, but I know it's older than 78.

 (chuckling)

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. Yeah. That answer I knew already.

So Buck, you and Bonnie been married a lot of years already. What do you guys do for fun as you've started to slow down a little bit, but you've also stopped working as much as you used to? What do you guys doing for fun?

Buck Jacobs: We still date, we still do things. We've just sold our house this last year and moved into a retirement apartment, which is a new experience, and that required some adjustments. We're still committed to having the marriage that God wants us to have, so we still stay the way, stay the course. See, the things that the world would say was fun, like going to play golf or go fishing or what, those aren't fun to me anymore.

Those are, those mean nothing unless they connect with leading somebody to Christ or helping somebody through a problem in Christ, or there's some Christ reason for doing them. So we've traveled, we've been to, India and we've been all over the world, right? I don't wanna do that anymore. Those long flights kill me. We just focus on our relationship. We got three lovely girls and six lovely grandkids that are now all in college. And yeah, and doing wonderfully well. And not necessarily in the world sense, but they're good people. They're good kids going straight so far, no stumbles, no drugs. No booze and so forth. So we're blessed to be with them. They, fortunately, love to be with us.

Jim Brangenberg: So Buck, as we close this time out, because I would love for you to speak to the retired audience that we've got. This goes out to hundreds, about a thousand people, every other week. So it's not a huge audience, but everybody who's listening, of course, they're important.

But the whole intent behind this podcast was we need to start talking about how retirement shouldn't exist within the biblical community. That we should look at it as just a different phase of life, fully funded missionaries, a time of meaning and purpose. But there's a lot of people struggling with the reality 'cause they've been told all their lives to prepare for retirement as a part of the American dream. They've also been taught that the America dream of retirement is biblical.

Buck Jacobs: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: Most people have been taught what they're retiring from and they know what they're retiring from, but they very rarely know what they're retiring to. So speak to those people. Share some wisdom, 'cause you're well into those quote unquote retirement years. Speak to them.

Buck Jacobs: You know what I've learned, Jim, my life really got shaken up when I first was challenged to read 2 Corinthians 5:12. And that says, "for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what he's done in the body, whether good or bad." And I started to press into that and to study it and it really became very clear. Salvation is free. It doesn't come without responsibility.

Every Christian has a responsibility to minister, to share God's love. That's what they're here for. They didn't get sent here so they can just experience the temporary pleasures of earth. Which a lot of 'em are confused of that, and they think if they get enough money, they can do this and they can do that and they'll be happy and they're not right. They're never supposed to be that way. We are here to become ambassadors for Christ, and we can be an ambassador for Christ at any age, any sex, any race. If you're a human Christian person, you are an ambassador for Christ. You don't have to enroll and enlist. You are there.

So when we come to the judgment seat of Christ, what's that judgment gonna be about? It's gonna be about, what did we do for Christ? What do we do with the opportunity to be an ambassador for the kingdom of God to the world at large, wherever we are. Did we promote God's values? Did we promote our values? Did we express the love and kindness of God to people that we didn't necessarily like and so forth? That's gonna be the judgment. That's what Jesus is gonna ask every single Christian.

It's not something that's an option, it's part of the deal of being saved, right? We're saved to work. We're not saved by works, but we're saved to work. Retired people have tremendous opportunities because of their experience and because of what they've lived through, like being a zaken. They go sit in the village gates somewhere and share wisdom with younger people that are having problems. They don't know what to do, 'cause they haven't been through 'em yet.

And so I say that those decisions that we make are eternal. You can live your whole life here as a Christian and never get one single kudo from Jesus. Bill Gates could die and go to heaven tomorrow, and God's gonna say, I don't know you. It's not how much money he has. It's what's in his heart. And so everybody, every single Christian, if I could, I just wanna blast from that message into the audience that it's not an option to serve Christ. That's what you're born for and that's what you'll be judged for.

The judgment seat of Christ is promised to every believer. Every one of us is going to go through it, and we're gonna have to explain how we made the decisions that we made to do the things that we did to Jesus. And for some of them he's gonna say, that's wonderful. I've been waiting to give you this, and he's gonna hand us a precious gem or something like that.

And for some, he's gonna say, I didn't tell you to do that. Where did you get the idea that's what you should do? Did you see it in my Bible? No, but it was a great opportunity. Lord. I've got 48 stores and I've got my, I'm worth $12 million. And, I worked, I honored, I was nice to my employees. I paid my bills on time. I tithed in church and he's gonna say, that wasn't what I sent you to Earth for. You missed. You got the good, you missed the best. And my heart breaks for people, like some of the guys that have come into C12 and walked away before they really got it.

And some do, because it's gonna be this awesome thing when they come before the King of Kings. And he said, what did you do with what I died to give you? I died so that you could be a part of the kingdom, you could serve father in extending his kingdom. What did you do to do that? And that's so sad, because it's all there in scripture. It's not hidden. You gotta dig it out a little bit, but it's not hidden.

Jim Brangenberg: Buck Jacobs, thanks for sharing a little bit of your story, but thanks for being on iRetire4Him today.

Buck Jacobs: My pleasure, Jim. God bless you and Martha.

Jim Brangenberg: And if you've got anybody in your family that's running a business, they're a believer, they're running a business, or maybe they're running a business and they're not a believer, but they know that there's something more, I highly encourage that you check out C12 , online at joinc12.com. joinc12.com.

And there is guaranteed a local C12 Group near you. Couldn't recommend it more. You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, we all want our lives to be full of meaning and purpose, so we can say with our final breath, iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 150: Lessons from Downton Abbey

Jim Brangenberg: Hey, welcome to iRetire4Him, a podcast dedicated to you, the retired believers in America. But we go today to England, Downton Abbey, for a special episode talking about the grand finale. Martha, we've never done a show about a movie before, have we?

Martha Brangenberg: Not that I can remember, but this is fun, Jim. We took a date night -

Jim Brangenberg: which has been a rare thing 'cause we've been doing construction, which we could tell you about that in a minute.

Martha Brangenberg: Yes. And we went and saw a movie.

Jim Brangenberg: Not any movie.

Martha Brangenberg: Not just any movie. We went and saw the grand finale of Downton Abbey. And we don't know whether you have had the opportunity to watch any of their shows. But there's a really strong message in the grand finale that we really thought was appropriate for this audience.

Jim Brangenberg: So Martha and I love watching movies and we love this series, the Downton Abbey series, which was six or seven years of shows, which I think we binged in less than a year, probably less than six months. I'm just saying - don't judge. It's not like you haven't binged anything.

Martha Brangenberg: It's not like we're endorsing any one show or anything like that, but we love to be able to find messages and things that we can take from scripts. People write things on purpose, they write things with intentionality. So whether you've watched the shows or not, this show today with us has some great life lessons, so we hope you'll hang tight till the very end.

Jim Brangenberg: And we recommend you watch Downton Abbey, the grand finale, because it has so many retirement messages in it. The whole Crawley family, it's just a normal family. They just happened to live in a big house in the twenties and the thirties in England, in between World War I and World War II, and it is, that's what it's all surrounding, but it's interesting. The British culture obviously had a lot of influence on American culture, because we left there and came here.

Martha Brangenberg: But the dynamics of this kind of a household are something very new to us.

Jim Brangenberg: It's lost on American culture 'cause we don't have servants, that kind of thing.

Martha Brangenberg: We don't have lords.

Jim Brangenberg: Lords and ladies.

Martha Brangenberg: And we don't have this very specific hierarchy, yet we have elements of it that we can learn from in our jobs. So really what they've taken, in their environment, we can apply so much in our jobs and in our own household. So this is a stretch for me. I'm just gonna warn everybody. I am a great movie watcher, but I don't retain all of the details. I enjoy the moment. So Jim and I are gonna do a little bit of, a highlight reel, not to give away all of this story.

Jim Brangenberg: That's right. We will not.

Martha Brangenberg: But it's really about the lessons and some of the things they really did well as people of transition.

Jim Brangenberg: So first of all, if you appreciate film, the cinematography and the soundtrack,

Martha Brangenberg: the music

Jim Brangenberg: the soundtrack, phenomenal soundtrack.

Anyway, iRetire4Him is all about the fact that retirement isn't a 30 year vacation. It's not, "Hey, I've done my time. I'm done and I'm checking out for the rest of my life." That's not the - God did not design us for that. There's nowhere in scripture that endorses that kind of behavior or attitude or actions.

Retirement's a different phase of life. It may look different than the first couple of phases of life, childhood and adulthood. Retirement may look different than that, but it's important to understand that retirement isn't when you're done. It's just a shift in your paradigm. It's a shift in your thinking, and iRetire4Him is all about that shift in your thinking.

The shift to our understanding that I'm now retired. I'm a fully funded missionary 'cause I get social security, maybe a pension, maybe a 401k. I'm fully funded to go do whatever the Lord has for me, unfettered and untethered by a regular daily job. But there's always transitions and that transition is difficult, and how you handle that transition makes or breaks relationships.

And that's what this episode was all about for Downton Abbey, the final episode, the grand finale, as they say, because everybody was transitioning into a different role. Because it was the end of an era, of a ruling family in this area of England. And the servants were transitioning, the leaders were transitioning, and the even the cook was transitioning. And it was people that you've, if you've watched the entire series, is people that you've gotten to know really well. Some sorted details, of course. That's what makes it fun. Does it make it fun?

Martha Brangenberg: It makes it interesting and I think one of the things, Jim, that we enjoy about this element of it being in a different country, in a different era, and a different societal structure is that we can see a different way that people have lived and, you get to remove yourself from reality. Yet it was someone's reality in a sense because there, this truly is a good representation of the kinds of lives that people were living during that time. So it's fun to look at it as an outsider without any personal attachments at all. But yet there's so much that we can learn from these transitions that they went through. So who are we going to dive into first? I'm curious.

Jim Brangenberg: So let's talk with Mr. Carson. Mr. Carson was the butler. And he ends up marrying in the last episode or the last movie of Downton Abbey he ends up marrying basically the head maid, right? But the lady in charge of the entire house on the lady side, Mr. Carson was in charge of the Butler stuff that goes on.

Martha Brangenberg: Wait, let's just talk right there. Isn't it true that the more you work with people, the more you get to know them, whether they End up being married together or not, these friendships grow and that's what we see behind the scenes happening with so many of the elements is you know that you're doing life together with the people that you work with every day.

Jim Brangenberg: And why not marry your best friend?

Martha Brangenberg: There you go.

Jim Brangenberg: If you're already married and then you go to work, it's not a good idea to get a best friend at work That's a trouble point. Yes. And we need to protect our marriages from our businesses, from our work. But we're talking about retirement now, and Mr. Carson and Mrs. Hughes, they get married and Mr. Carson needs to retire as Butler. And he has been training up Andy Parker - Andy Parker, who also is married to Daisy, the cook, the assistant cook.

And Mr. Carson has only known being a Butler. For 40 plus years, that's what he's known. He's always been in service and he's worried about, he says in the movie, "I feel as if I'm turning my life's blood into water," which is saying like I'm turning into nothing. It's like everything I've done is going away and I'm no longer significant.

That's a lie of the world today, that when we retire we're no longer important, that none of that wisdom is important, all the stuff that we've gained. That's not true at all, is it, Martha?

Martha Brangenberg: No, it's not. In fact, to watch, he has a hard time with this transition. So Mr. Carson goes home and he starts polishing all of their silverware, and he starts figuring out, sitting in the room, standing up, and he's uncomfortable and he doesn't know what to do. And then he ends up showing back up at his old workplace quite a bit.

And they joke about it like, 'cause he doesn't really know what to do other than his work. Now, again, a little different era than we were in where it truly was their life's service in that role. And so they worked very long days and did very little outside. We talk about a lot on retirement, Jim, is investing in your hobbies and finding creative ways to use your skills outside of the workplace, so you aren't surprised by this season where you don't have a schedule and you don't have things to do. But Mr. Carson struggled with that.

Jim Brangenberg: He did. He also struggled with the fact that he'd been a servant, somebody in the quiet behind the scenes job, for all of his life ,and he didn't think anybody wanted to hear the wisdom that God had given him and that he'd accumulated, and he got involved at a local festival and he found out that what he had learned actually applied, that people could accept the wisdom that he's given - just because he was a servant.

There's so many people today in our society that think nobody wants to hear what I gotta say, but you know what? If you've lived 60 or 70 years, you got a lot of experience. You've got things that people want to hear and God will bring people into your life that need to hear specifically what you know, and that's really important.

Martha Brangenberg: And he proved himself worthy of that wisdom, as well, even to the point where Lord Grantham came and visited with him.

Jim Brangenberg: And asked him advice. Oh, don't give it away.

Martha Brangenberg: No, I won't give it away. But, that's a role reversal. But that's based on relationship and him showing himself worthy of all of those years of relationship and trusted wisdom, because he gave a lot of wisdom.

Jim Brangenberg: And as Mr. Carson knew he was on the way out, he spent time training up Mr. Parker on how to be the butler. He mentored and discipled him in all of the ways that he needed to know to run a household from the Butler side of things.

Martha Brangenberg: But did he trust Parker to actually be able to pull it all off?

Jim Brangenberg: No, he was really worried that Parker couldn't pull it off 'cause Parker was a kid like Carson was when he first took the job. And so it's so important though that we do invest our lives in those that are gonna take our place and have a perpetuation plan when you're leaving your job. But after you're out of the job, it's okay to still see yourself as somebody that has wisdom and value to input into other people.

What's interesting is Mr. Parker ends up marrying the assistant cook, who ends up transitioning to be the head cook. Mrs. Patmore has been the cook at Downton Abbey for decades, and Daisy joins the show early on in the series and is trained and discipled. Daisy couldn't barely even sift flour when she first walked into that kitchen.

And Daisy said, I'm not gonna be a servant all of my life. That's what she says many times. But she ends up being the head Cook and during the whole grand finale movie, Mrs. Patmore and Daisy are transitioning for the final event that Mrs. Patmore does and the first event that Daisy will do.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah, so that was really a beautiful thing because a lot of people think about going out on top and saying, this is gonna be my final grand event that I'm in charge of, or project that I do or whatever, but Mrs. Patmore very graciously asked for Daisy to be the one in charge.

So instead of it being. Mrs. Patmore's last event, it was Daisy's first event, and so it gave it this beautiful opportunity for Daisy to shine. Mrs. Patmore got to be there to watch it happen and participate in it, but with a different role. That takes a very good leader that can stand back and allow the next person to rise up and show off everything that you've taught them. But to see her shine and to see her do it so well, it really is a beautiful thing.

And passing the baton can be very hard, but it's so powerful when it's done well, and she really set Daisy up for success. She set Daisy up to do a good job. She taught her everything and let her fly. It's like letting that little bird out of the bird's nest and letting them fly and trusting that they will do all the things. Yes, we're gonna fail. We're gonna have mistakes, we're gonna mess things up, even to the point, and I don't remember if this was in the last dinner, but at some point someone questioned what dishes were being used. Wasn't that the case?

Jim Brangenberg: Oh yeah, that was Mr. Carson. He's, " are you sure Mr. Parker? You've chosen this, and I can't believe you chose these dishes instead of these dishes."

Martha Brangenberg: And in fact, it was requested by Lady Mary or someone that these dishes be used. So he was following instructions. So there was questioning of whether they were making good decisions, but having the authority to say, we are doing this because it was requested of me. So again, beautiful leadership and beautiful - when you give someone authority, allowing them to actually live in that authority is a huge thing. So you can tell we were so impressed.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah. That's what's really cool though, is Mrs. Patmore and Daisy had spent so many hours together in the kitchen, years together in the kitchen. And Mrs. Patmore had never gotten married 'cause she was the head cook. There was no time for her to get married. She never got outta the house. She says to Daisy, "you're the daughter i've never had." Just a powerful moment. And I don't believe the Daisy was close to her mother, so Mrs. Patmore had taken that role on. So it's just really a cool thing.

But again, a transitioning where somebody underneath Mrs. Patmore was risen up in the leadership and Mrs. Patmore was able to pass a baton and pat her on the back as she celebrated the last event that she was a part of before Daisy took over. Again passing on, changing, transitions. And Mrs. Patmore is then gonna be moving in with her new husband, and that was a whole new thing for her, and Mrs. Hughes and Mrs. Patmore have a hilarious exchange. We won't talk about that today on the show.

Martha Brangenberg: You can watch the movie. (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: You can watch the movie, but it is actually pretty funny. Yeah, but probably the biggest thing in this whole grand finale of Downton Abbey is a transition from Lord Grantham to Lady Mary.

Martha Brangenberg: Yeah.

Jim Brangenberg: Lady Mary, the eldest daughter of the Crawleys, but in the middle of this, there's a great scandal, which we won't talk about, but there's this transition and Lady Mary's been being trained for years on taking care of the Downton estate.

Martha Brangenberg: Because that is more than a full-time job. It's a big place. You can see it behind us on the video. We have a picture of it.

Jim Brangenberg: That's right. You can't hear the lawnmowers in the background around. We have that muted, but as being on location it just, it is a beautiful place. But Lady Mary has learned all about the estate and has been transitioned, but Lord Grantham is having a hard time letting go, and partly because Mary's a woman. But partly because it's his little girl who's growing up to take over the estate.

Martha Brangenberg: And it's all he's done for many years. So let's talk about that. So he's referred to as Lord Grantham, because it's the Grantham Abbey. Or the Downton Abbey is the Grantham family. But his name is Robert Crawley. And I think that it's important to just talk about the fact that he had to really come to terms with the timing, that it was time for the next season of their life.

Jim Brangenberg: And it wasn't end of life. They were both perfectly healthy.

Martha Brangenberg: Yes.

Jim Brangenberg: But Robert and Isabelle were perfectly healthy. Is it Isabel? Is that right? No, Robert and Mrs. Crawley.

Martha Brangenberg: There you go. But yes they were perfectly healthy and ready for this next season in a lot of ways, but they knew that it meant they had to make some verbal announcements, that they had to literally pass the baton.

So I think it's very interesting, Jim, at this point where they get to the end and the house was very full. There were a lot of people in it. And then slowly, everybody was saying their goodbyes and transitioning to their new roles until we were just left with Mary.

Jim Brangenberg: Yeah, and Mary's sitting there remembering all of the things that have gone on in Downton, and it's just a great lesson for all of us as we look at retirement, not as an ending, but as a beginning of a new phase, as a beginning of a really, a paradigm shifting in our thoughts and our minds. And the Lord has so much more for us.

He spent all of your life feeding you full of wisdom and knowledge and relationships and feeding himself into you, depending on how long you've been a believer. And retirement is the opportunity to start to let those go, all of that stuff, and let it fill your life. There's so much more for you then moving into a retirement village and being surrounded by people who are unhappy 'cause they gave up everything.

Move into a neighborhood with families that you can pour your life into. Families today desperately need chronologically superior people in their lives. Look for ways to feed into your community by volunteering or maybe even getting a job where you can be a mentor to other people. But look for ways to take everything that God has put into your life, to feed it into others. Y'all, we just recorded a show recently for iWork4Him and it's just a known fact, if you were a business person in your life, most pastors don't know how to deal with business people, 'cause they weren't business people. They don't understand the business world.

If you're a business people, you could help your pastor understand business people. There's just so many opportunities. But Downton Abbey just gave us a great platform for sharing about, hey, everybody's gonna go through these transitions. You could do it with grace or you could do it with a nuclear bomb. Which one would you rather do?

And Downton Abbey, 'cause they're British people, they did it with grace and did it with pageantry and they did it with a little drama, which we won't disclose. But all in all, an opportunity for us all to just be reminded - retirement's not "done." It's, if you've got a pulse, you've got a purpose. There's a future for you.

Martha Brangenberg: There's a quote at the very end of the movie when they're toasting and it says, "what else would we drink to? We're going forward into the future, not back into the past." And I think a lot of us really struggle with that, looking forward to the future when it might be uncertain, when we might not know what it's gonna hold or how we're gonna spend our days.

It's beautiful to reflect on the past, but we're living in what God has given us for the future. So to do that well and to anticipate that, with new opportunities that come and really seeing how they exemplified that was just a beautiful reminder and Jim and I knew that we wanted this opportunity to reflect on it a little bit.

There are so many other lessons, pretty sure we're gonna need to watch it again.

Jim Brangenberg: There's some great lines in there.

Martha Brangenberg: There really were. When you get the opportunity to script something in beautiful English, you always say, oh man, I wish I could say it so beautifully as what they said, but very profound, very impactful, and just a fun way for us to look at what kind of transitions does God have us in, and are we handling it in a way that would give him glory and honor? Are we leading well? Are we passing the baton? Are we mentoring well? Are we discipling others well so that they're ready to pick up that torch or that baton and carry it forward into the future as well? So really great challenges, really great encouragement, and we hope that it's been a little bit of fun too.

Jim Brangenberg: Downton Abbey. The grand finale. Now, before we go today, we wanna encourage you to check out our sponsors. People that help keep iWork4Him, the ministry of iWork4Him and iRetire4Him, going on a day-to-day basis. Two of our big sponsors we wanna draw attention to today would be Patriot Mobile, providing cell phone service, just like the cell phone service you have for one of the big three, but when they make money, they support faith, family, and freedom.

Martha Brangenberg: That's right.

Jim Brangenberg: And if you've got a computer or a cell phone, you need SaferNet on those devices to keep the bad people out and to keep you safe while you're searching and scrolling all over the internet. SaferNet.com.

You've been listening to iRetire4Him with Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're not retired yet, but we're really close, but we know that it's a transition into the next phase of our lives, and we invite you into it. Check us out online at iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 149: "Refiring" as the Body of Christ

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years could be 30 years of purpose-driven, fully funded ministry, years of making impact in ways and places you never imagined. Welcome to iRetire4Him, and I'm your host, Jim Brangenberg. Please check us out online at iRetire4Him.com. That's I retire the number four him.com.

It's starting to happen... something Martha's dad dreamed about when he launched iRetire4Him within iWork4Him almost 12 years ago. People in their forties and their fifties are realizing that the American dream of retirement doesn't apply to believers. That dream is actually a nightmare and it actively holds millions of retired believers in retirement prison all across our country.

We were made to live with purpose, our faith impacting all of our days. We were given a promise that the Lord numbered our days from before we were born. When did that promise get changed to "the last 30 years of that time, we will be on perpetual vacation letting the kids do all the ministry work?"

We need to live on purpose based on the promises God has given us all over scripture, and that applies especially in our years after 55. When we turn 55 or 65, nothing magical happens except that we are older and wiser - hopefully - and have a lot of experience to share. Today. John McCarthy joins us from the Cincinnati, Ohio, area to talk about the ministry he leads, purposepromise.org. John, you're only 45 years old. Why do you care what 65 plus age people do with their time? You're a long way from there.

John McCarthy: Yeah, Jim. Thanks for having me. It's been a highlighted component of what we do on a larger scale, which is helping people discern their vocation, really creating an intentional life plan that they can then integrate with their work plan and loving work, and through that work at the Purpose Promise that we've just had the joy to get to do with the Lord and with the community, I just, my eyes were open to the problem around, as you talked about, the shaping of retirement and how unbiblical it is and how really the body of Christ has a unique opportunity to lead well in the formation of discernment, in the formation of vocation in the last season of life. And I'm fired up about what God's doing and being a part of this.

Jim Brangenberg: So did you grow up in church?

John McCarthy: I did.

Jim Brangenberg: So when did you decide to become a follower of Jesus?

John McCarthy: Yeah, it was really in my early twenties. I had some great experiences throughout my teen years, leaning into retreats and had many kairos moments in those seasons where I got to experience Jesus just through what I'd now say is the starting of the formation of the contemplative muscle.

And that was awesome through my high school journey. Then I really met Jesus in understanding what a surrendered life would look like during my college years as I was then leading some of those retreats, ironically, is where I met him and developed a deeper passion for him.

Jim Brangenberg: That's fantastic. I love that. And I love the fact that even though you grew up in the church, it was still, you were in your twenties before you went all in and said, yeah, this is what I'm gonna do. So growing up though, weren't you always... the shift of the conversation on retirement, weren't you always told that the American dream of retirement was actually biblical?

Isn't that what you've been taught? You're only 45, but you've been listening to, you've been working for 25 years already. Is that your perspective?

John McCarthy: Early in my life, it was baked into what I was experiencing and I'm a big believer in the creation of retreats and helping people discern vocation and other things that really looking through our memories and really crafting our own unique beliefs on what we believe as opposed to adopting what the world will tell us. This is a continuation, I believe, the reality of Romans 12:2, you know that we're not conformed, but transformed by the renewal of our mind, that by testing we can discern what is perfect, pleasing, and acceptable in God's will.

And there's just so many things that we're taught mostly environmentally, Jim, about a lot of components of our life that we then craft our life towards. But I don't think there's any bigger one than this misnomer that's not biblical at all around vocation being in three different chapters: our pre-work, preparation for vocation launching, and then our work in it, and then our retirement.

And it's just part of the American realities that we've created our education system up around and that many families actually drive towards. And now I can look back and say, wow, that conforming belief is driving so many people into a lackluster vocation when they're in their career and also a lackluster retirement.

Jim Brangenberg: And misery. I'm gonna say misery. I lived in Florida for 20 years. I've seen a lot of people who lived all their lives through their retirement years, and they get there and they're miserable because all of a sudden they have no meaning and purpose. So what is, without using big five syllable words, 'cause you've got a tendency for really fancy words- I love that. But just for the sake of your host being extremely simple, what do you feel is the actual biblical theology on retirement?

John McCarthy: Yeah, I'm gonna point to an early reference, maybe not a direct reference, but the reality of what we experience is when Israel is in its early ages, in the Old Testament, God's chosen people literally rise and fall based on the transfer of wisdom.

You can go back through the Old Testament, you can see where there was a good king that set up a successor and transferred wisdom, then we saw Israel thrive. And then on the other side of it, we would see that when there was a poor king, Israel would just go down in the dumps and really have a hard season.

And so that, that model of transfer of wisdom is so key, so catalytic. And you know what we don't see if we believe that the last season of our life is about sitting on a beach somewhere? Wisdom transfer. And God's graced us with these gifts to grace the body, right? To, to build up the fellow believer.

And I believe that the conforming view of retirement is nowhere near what God says, which is great pleasure, and that is about transfer of wisdom. And we know that obviously wisdom is richest in those latter days of life.

Jim Brangenberg: And why is that? Why is wisdom richer in our latter days of life?

John McCarthy: I love teaching this in earlier generations because we live in the age of information, Jim. It's wild, but today, statistics would tell us today, wherever you're listening to this, today, you will take in more information than somebody that lived and was born in the 1920s would take in in their whole life. Crazy.

So we have all this information coming at us, but we're losing the muscle memory of taking information and criticizing it, being able to think through information to take it to knowledge, and then taking knowledge and saying, where does that apply in my life? Or does that not apply to my life in making it wisdom?

And so it's the application of knowledge into life and experience that actually turns it into wisdom. Obviously the individuals that have had more experience in life have the more opportunity of taking knowledge into wisdom. That's the discernment process. So there's this great gift in your latter years of life and your latter years of what we call is "refirement" as opposed to retirement, of having a lot more wisdom just simply because of the reps you've had in life, right?

Jim Brangenberg: It just comes - you've experienced life, you've screwed up a lot. I say a lot of my wisdom comes from I screwed up. Hopefully a little bit of it came from me seeing other people screw up and learning from their mistakes, but most of the wisdom I've got is... yeah, been there, done that. I can write the book.

In fact, I have written a book and I'm glad you brought that up, John, because I wrote a book about retirement. And I'm not retired, but I wrote it alongside my father-in-law who at the time was 88 years old. He wrote his stories of living out his faith in retirement. I wanna tell everybody listening today for any donation made to iWork4Him, I'll give you a free copy of iRetire4Him and I'll sign it and we'll get it sent off to you. Go to iWork4Him.com. That's I work the number four him.com/donate. Make any kind of donation and we'll send you a copy of iRetire4Him.

Just put it in the notes when you make the donation, love to get a copy in your hands. I'd love to get you a set of copies for you to go through it in your small group or in your Sunday school class because in here, inside iRetire4Him, a ton of ideas on how you can practically live out your faith in retirement, whether you continue to work, go back to work, move intentionally into a neighborhood that isn't a retirement neighborhood. And I got a lot to say about that.

John, you know, there's a move across the country of people realizing that retiring and moving to Florida or Arizona or Texas is a lousy long-term solution because of all the drawbacks, like missing your family, being surrounded by a bunch of cranky old people who also lack purpose, and living in a homeowner's association, which is like purgatory on earth. What are you seeing out there in the ministry work that you're doing?

John McCarthy: Yeah, I think it's a reshaping of what wealth is and what wealth transfer is. We've heard this terminology of wealth transfer and wealth comes in a lot of different ways. First we obviously think about our daily bread, and I think interestingly enough, the Lord really addressed the different versions of wealth in his prayer that he teaches to his disciples, and that we now recite as the Lord's Prayer.

He talks about daily bread, but then he talks about motivation: lead us not into temptation, right? So what are we motivated to pass on? What is actually our motivation each and every day in retirement or in different seasons? Then he talks about relational wealth. The whole "our Father" Lord's Prayer is "our father," it's not "my father." And it's about community. It's about making sure that you're creating legacy in the most important relationships that you have.

And quite frankly, just moving off to Florida or Arizona, as you've mentioned, that doesn't necessarily always do it because it takes a lot of quality and quantity of investment of time in order to have relational impact and wealth. And then obviously the spiritual wealth component. And we know that because of what we believe in our worldview, but there's new habits and new rhythms that can be taken on in a season where you've got more time, maybe even a little bit more money, to be able to build into what the Lord's speaking into your life in order to "refire" well, and that kind of regrouping on what wealth is and thinking about wealth transfer, I think is a really good component of what a healthy "refire" can look like.

Jim Brangenberg: I just was having this thought and I just - is it any wonder in this country today, John, that our northern cities are struggling? When you look at the majority of cities in our country that are really struggling, they're struggling with all different kinds of things, that's where the most people have moved away from when they retired and moved to the south.

All of that aged wisdom leaving instead of people getting involved in the political process and helping improve the city they're living in, they're moving away and abandoning those northern cities. You could list 10 northern cities and go, wow, how many of the wisdom transfer of Christ followers to the South impacted each of those cities?

It'd be interesting to see in Detroit, Minneapolis, New York City, you just keep going and going. I understand. I grew up in Minneapolis. The weather's not great in the middle of January. It's just not a nice place to live, but it's an amazing place. But how can we fix that? John, you keep saying "refiring." What do you mean when you say people should be refiring not retiring? What do you mean?

John McCarthy: Yeah, as the Lord often does, when you're in one lane and you feel called into it, he often co-opts you and moves you into another lane. And that was the case for me, Jim, is I was really focused and really excited about answering the call to help people recraft how to intentionally look at work as a form of worship and discern vocation, finding careers that they love, finding jobs that they love. And we were going along doing that.

And I kinda created with a couple others this Purpose Promise, which is a retreat mechanism to help people really distill the most important components of their life on impact and then bake that into their vocational planning. We were certifying a number of guides on this process. It's a discipleship business. And a few of 'em were in this season of "refirement" as opposed to retirement. They were on mission, they were looking to transfer their wisdom, have legacy, and you'd leverage their gifts in new and fresh ways. So they were fired up about this process, but like three of 'em came to me in corresponding months and were like, you know what we need to do?

We need to create a retreat mechanism, a vocational discernment tool, for the age group that we're in. Because what happens is you go from your vocation identity into this retirement philosophy and you lose a lot of yourself. A lot of your identity that was baked in the previous season of vocation and work is now totally shifted. And they said, and these are highly aware, God-fearing, rooted Christians, they said it was a huge struggle. And so they prompted my heart on this and I started doing research and I couldn't believe, Jim, what I was finding out of what you document on, iRetire4Him so well, is that there's all this gray divorce.

'Cause all of a sudden you got a husband and a wife who don't know each other coming back together. They're trying to have purpose, but they don't even know how to find it. You've got all this mental health issue, depression, anxiety, 'cause of the identity loss. You've got all these real, real issues, health issues. And I had no idea. And I thought, man, what if the body of Christ could be a catalyst in this? And that's when we launched this "refirement" ministry.

Jim Brangenberg: And it's not, what if the body of Christ could help here? The body of Christ was designed to fix this stuff. The body of Christ was designed to impact culture. As believers, everything about us should be changing that, that sanctification process and everybody around us should be benefiting from our faith, whether they believe in Jesus or not. That's the kingdom of God. That's that fragrance from our lives that impacts other people.

And the decisions we make in retirement impact so many and I keep going back to I just hadn't even thought about the fact that our northern cities are struggling. But I also see that, when we move away - so my parents did it. I lived in Minnesota. My parents moved to Arizona when they retired, and for 28 years, I had interacted with my parents a week, a year. Because they were literally couple thousand miles away. How sad is that for the grandkids?

My nieces and nephews don't know their grandparents very well. My kids didn't know their grandparents very well, and now my parents are 91 and 92, and my parents don't know my kids very well. They don't know my grandkids very well because they moved away. But one thing I do know, John, is that our money matters and our money talks, and that's why when we buy our cell phone service, it shouldn't be with one of these name brand companies that are the big names, because their monies, their investment dollars that they put in are invested in things that are the opposite of what we talk about in following Jesus.

You need to find a cell phone carrier, John, that believes in Jesus, that actually wants to support faith, family, and freedom. Patriot Mobile would be a great place to do that, John McCarthy. patriotmobile.com/iWork4Him, they got all the same towers. They use all the same equipment, but when they make money, it goes to support faith, family, and freedom.

John, I can tell you this: there's a lot of peer pressure out there for people 55 plus. Literally every time you go into a room, they're going, Hey, when are you gonna retire? What are you gonna do when you retire? What are your retirement plans? How are things getting up? How do we get retirees or pre-retirees to fight back against the peer pressure, 'cause there's a lot of peer pressure.

We all thought peer pressure would end when we got outta high school, and honestly there was a lot less peer pressure in college, at least for me than there was in high school. But how do we eliminate the peer pressure of retiring and the constant thought of vacation for 30 years and retiring and shift it to what's your plan for living a life full of purpose and meaning?

John McCarthy: Yeah. I think this is a cliche answer, but it starts earlier on. We need to teach people that they are uniquely made by God for a unique purpose that doesn't have to look like their neighbor or the rest of the world. That's exactly what Romans 12:2 is talking about, but we live in this environment that's just like the Joneses. It is really pervasive and it's getting worse and worse every day because of social media realities. And this is the way to to reformat that, Jim, is by changing the conversation, so that people will say, you know what, I'd rather look like that, somebody that's on impact in every season of their career, right?

It's not like you just hit 55, 60, 65, and then you're thinking about impact. You should be thinking about that from day one when you start discerning vocation. And so my hope is that the Lord is really fueling a movement right now in the body of Christ that says, no, listen, your worth is in me, and your identity is unique, and when you call on me and when you learn how to hear my voice about how I uniquely made you and you walk in that place, you will not toil, and you will be provided for.

And that's been, I'm a student of that, Jim, I'm not just, I have not arrived at any destination and it's hard work, but it's beautiful work to be able to discern that with the Lord's voice. And my hope is the body can be catalytic and is just because of things we're doing like this today.

Jim Brangenberg: When you look at purposepromise.org and the mission of Purpose Promise, specifically with people 55 plus, what do you have for them specifically as you're developing your website, as you're, as this ministry is growing and expanding? If somebody's 55 plus, they're like, I wanna pursue meaning and purpose in my retirement years, when they go to purpose promise.org, what kinda resources are you gonna have out there for them?

John McCarthy: Yeah, ways for them to remap some of those norms that are so conforming. So most of these are packaged retreat mechanisms, usually with a low barrier to entry. A lot of people can't just go away for days, so they're mostly 30 to 45 minute per day retreat mechanisms that are best done with a certified guide, somebody that is living in that space that has learned the discipleship tools to walk with them.

The retreat mechanisms, there's not rocket science here, Jim. It's based on the theology of who God says we are, our unique identity and the psychology, which is very similar to what you'll get in therapy, it's cognitive behavioral therapy, right? It's based on: our memories create our beliefs, our beliefs create our thoughts and our feelings, and our thoughts and feelings become our attitudes and our behaviors and our decisions in life.

And so you mesh that with theology and the beauty of our mind and the way it actually operates in our cognition and then just reframe it, and look at the truth of what God says. Then what happens is habits come about, Jim. And that's the beauty of all of these retreat mechanisms is people develop new habits of looking at themselves, of looking at the world, of developing self-care, of, we call it refired with the spouse. How do I want to care for my spouse, if you're married? And really just create an intentional life plan and refirement that will guide your attitudes and beliefs and behaviors on how you actually spend it.

Jim Brangenberg: And you kept saying retreat and I'm thinking we get to go away, you're leading retreats. And you're like, you're talking a daily personal retreat, which is, it's great because getting away for weekend is tough at times. Plus it costs sometimes, can cost a lot of money. I love the fact that you're encouraging people to just get away a little bit every day and that's what your materials get.

I know that as this podcast comes out, you're continuing to refine things, but we encourage all of you to go out there and check out the website purposepromise.org and see the resources as they develop and get in touch with them, and maybe you could become one of those certified people to help others go through the same program.

Because if we're going to transform our country and change the way we think about retirement, that's the NLT version of Romans 12:2, it's gonna take a tidal wave of people from one coast to the next in order to be able to shift that thinking. So John McCarthy, thanks so much for appearing here on iRetire4Him, thanks so much for your work. I can't wait to interview you 20 years from now to figure out all the things you've learned between 45 and 65.

John McCarthy: Thank you, brother. I know I'll have more wisdom. And I'm excited about that day. But until then, I just really appreciate gleaning from great folks like you that are living it out.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow. Thanks, John. You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, I want my life to be full of meaning and purpose, so I say iRetire4Him.

iRetire4Him Show 148: Grace and Grit in Retirement

Jim Brangenberg: Your retirement years could be 30 years of purpose-driven, fully funded ministry, years of making impact in ways and places you never imagined. Welcome to iRetire4Him. I'm your host, Jim Brangenberg. Please check us out online at iRetire4Him.com. That's I retire the number four him.com.

Once a teacher, always a teacher, our guest today grew up teaching in the public schools of St. Paul, Minnesota. For those of you don't know, I also grew up near St. Paul. So let's be clear, growing up in Minnesota is no cakewalk. It's cold, it's really cold, and it's hot and miserable too. But the cold gets you after the years, so that's why so many Minnesotans migrate to Arizona, Florida, Texas, and other destinations. After all, Martha and I are in Missouri after living in Florida for 20 years, but I digress.

Sheila retired to sunny Arizona and I say retired, quote unquote, retired to sunny Arizona and I may add hot as a convection oven, Arizona. That's what it is, and that's where this story picks up. Was Sheila satisfied with Arizona living as a retired person or was God prompting her to do something more? Was there purpose and meaning to be found in Sheila's retirement years? Let's find out. Sheila Arrington, welcome back to iRetire4Him for more of the story.

Sheila Arrington: Thank you, Jim, for having me. I'm so excited to be here and just share a little bit what God has been doing in my life and however I can just share the word of God and the love of God.

Jim Brangenberg: When you were growing up, what did you think retirement is all about?

Sheila Arrington: When I was growing up I probably looked at it as how I looked at my grandparents. They lived on a farm and my mother's parents in Topeka, Kansas, and, just thought it was just gonna be, you're gonna have coffee with the neighbors and you're gonna just do a little church stuff and just have good time. That's what I thought it was gonna be like.

I did not really put a lot of thought, and where I grew up, the conversation was really not about retirement, but you saw people who were retired and they did, they were just doing daily things, nothing spectacular. So you didn't put a whole lot of thought into it at that time.

Jim Brangenberg: Sheila, how many years were you a public school teacher?

Sheila Arrington: I was a public school teacher for over 37 years.

Jim Brangenberg: Everybody's going, praise God for Sheila. We need people like Sheila, and just so you know, audience, there are millions of Christ following public school teachers all over America. You need to pray for them because it's not an easy job . Sheila, was it a job that you love? Was it an easy job that you had?

Sheila Arrington: It was not an easy job, but I believe just for me, I knew that I wanted to be a teacher from the beginning, when I was five years old. I was a kid that in the summer, as soon as school was out for the summer, I ran home and with my friends and we played school. So for me it was challenging at times, but I knew that I was called to do it. It's a calling.

Jim Brangenberg: Oh yeah.

Sheila Arrington: And so throughout, I was able to, you have your trials and you have your tribulation and you have those kids that can push your very last button. Oh, I'm telling you, you're mad.

Jim Brangenberg: (laughing) I might have been, I might've been one of those kids at times with Mrs. Connie Johnson, my eighth grade English teacher. I'm pretty sure I pushed her to the edge. Sorry. And if I could find... now, Mrs. Johnson, growing up in Burnsville, Minnesota, you think I could find her? Connie Johnson. How do you find a Connie Johnson in Minneapolis area? You can't . (laughter)

So how old were you re when you retired from teaching?

Sheila Arrington: 64.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay, so 64. And then, how long did you stay around St. Paul before you and your hubby decided to go arizona winters are a whole lot nicer than Minnesota winners? How long did it take for you to say we're checking out?

Sheila Arrington: I had no idea. It was a surprise to me, let me tell you. Steven, my husband, is an avid golfer. He loves golfing. He always came out here to golf. He either went to Florida or he came to Arizona to golf. And the last time he came before we moved, years before we moved, he said, Sheila, there's something about arizona. It's different from the last time when we were in the nineties and we visited and neither one of us really cared that much for it.

He said, but it's different. And he said, so after this tournament, I want you to just come on out. And we'll stay here for a few extra days and just look around and just see how you feel. I thought, oh, okay. Okay. So we get there. I come out and those of you who know the Lord, when he starts stirring you, I was like, what is this? And Steven really said, Sheila, I always wanted to, he's always wanted to not retire in Minnesota. I am, on my father's side, I am four generation Minnesota. I am lock, stock, and barrel.

Jim Brangenberg: That's saying something. That's saying something.

Sheila Arrington: Yeah and my sister was the first African American mayor of Minneapolis. And we have roots deep in Minnesota, so it was like leaving? And I remember the Lord spoke to my heart. He said this: do this for your husband. And that was a wrap. Within a year and a half, our house sold. On the first day in Woodbury, we lived in Woodbury, we had four offers.

Jim Brangenberg: Wow. I guess it was time for you to go .

Sheila Arrington: Yes. And came out here, got a beautiful home and all of that, but little did I know... I did not know what I was going to do. God did.

Jim Brangenberg: Well, and let's save that for a minute, but I love the fact that you - I get it. When you're from Minnesota, even sometimes people think Minnesota, really? That's a crazy place, but it's a place... when you're from there, it's my home. Some days I have a hard time admitting that when it gets the crazy things in the news.

But you were there, you got generations there. I moved there as a little kid. What a great place it was to raise a family back then. Your sister, so your sister was a mayor of Minneapolis? I'm trying to remember her name 'cause it would've been when I was - Sharon Sales Belton- so that was the nineties, right? Wow. I remember that. That's hilarious. That's the first time I heard that.

Okay. So I wanna give a little shout out to our iRetire4Him book. Martha and I wrote iRetire4Him for everybody listening to give you a perspective on if maybe you're just like Sheila, like I never thought about what retirement would be like. And so you've done what many people have done. They've just checked out. iRetire4Him is all about how do you find meaning and purpose in your retirement years, but through stories and through encouragement, 'cause some people in retirement need to go back to work. So if you're gonna go back to work, choosing a place where you can make the biggest impact on the people that are younger than you.

Or maybe you don't need to go back to work, so move your household into a neighborhood full of young families because those young families desperately need to know what does it look like to, what's marriage look like? What does cleaning a house look like? What does fixing things on your own look like? What does a budget look like? All those things they can learn from you.

iRetire4Him has written for you and it's filled with stories from Martha's dad of what did it look like to live out retirement on purpose with a purpose. Get a copy today, online at our iWork4Him Bookstore. iWork4HIm.com/bookstore. And if you make any donation to iWork4Him, we'll give you the book for free and we'll sign it as well. That's iRetire4Him. It's the book. You gotta have a copy.

Sheila, talk to me about this. You've experienced a few years of the American dream of retirement, still living in Woodbury before you decided to go to Arizona, and I know life changed then. Did you find the America dream of retirement fulfilling, satisfying?

Sheila Arrington: You know what? I am just a different, I didn't ever get a chance to really retire like that, Jim. See, because of couple of things. When I retired, of course, and I was with St. Paul Public Schools. I was in their professional development department. So immediately when I had retired they said, would you be a consultant?

So literally I retired in June, had the big party, but in September I was working with new teachers. Now when you look back 2020, and you say I had always told the Lord when I retire, this was my conversation to God, I'm all in ministry. He comes for those words.

Jim Brangenberg: Even though you were already in ministry 37 years as a public school teacher.

Sheila Arrington: I was already doing ministry, but full time, you got me. I went right back as a consultant to a consulting position and he's she will stay there. So I think, it was another thing of I'm moving her out of here, minnesota, away from public education, because she's going to keep saying yes to these people as they ask her to do.

Jim Brangenberg: But even so, mentoring the next generation of teachers, what a privilege that was. That's really that's the most biblical thing I've ever heard because the Levitical priests were required to start at 25 and retire at 50, but then their next stage in life was training up the next Levitical priests.

You were doing the same thing. That was the true, that's the only biblical sense of retirement that really makes sense is okay, you can stop doing your regular day job, but start training everybody else, pouring the years of wisdom that you have. Oh my word, classroom. I don't know if you know this, but I taught seventh and eighth grade math for one year.

 (chuckles)

Jim Brangenberg: No training. I was substitute teaching for fun. And they recruited me because in Florida you only have to have a degree in order to be able to teach the first two years. You don't have to have a teaching degree. So you just have to have a four year degree. And you could teach in your discipline.

And I had a computer science business degree, and that was the worst job I ever had in my entire life. And it wasn't the kids. It was the parents. The parents were the worst part of that whole deal. So I understand just a little bit of how hard this is. If I'd had a mentor in my life, I might've been a teacher forever, but I didn't have anybody mentor me. I literally was thrown in a classroom that was three weeks old because the teacher didn't know how to add and subtract and she was teaching math.

Okay, so God shifts you from Woodbury, Minnesota, to Arizona, and he's got a plan. How did God reveal to you what was next? Because your teaching, your mentoring, that's built into your DNA, that's what Sheila Arrington's all about. What is next? What does he have you doing today?

Sheila Arrington: What He has me doing today is a variety of things. I do a conference, a yearly conference called Purposely Design Conference. We do it every April. It is a conference where we bring women in and we talk about equipping, we talk about maybe finding purpose. We talk about building relationship with God, helping you in maybe God's put a business or you have entrepreneurship on your heart. So we have a variety of things. Purposely Design Conference has grown over the years. Next year will be our sixth year of doing it, and I've been in Arizona, in September, seven years. So God got busy really quickly.

The end of 2024 we did our first online fundraiser, Gifts of Purpose to help fund our Breaking Free to Soar class for women who have had some challenges and need some extra strategies and support. We're putting some new things in place for 2026, where we're going to have our first Women Who Brunch with Purpose, where we're going to help and partner with organizations that help women get back to work and they maybe need some new clothing or new clothing to them. So we will, through that brunch, have a fun fashion show. People will bring their beautifully, beautifully gently used clothing to donate to these organizations so women can go back to work feeling good.

Jim Brangenberg: Living in Arizona, there are closets and closets full of clothing that should be donated there, because you know that women don't let go of their clothing very easily, and so they die with closets full of clothing. That's just my perspective. Don't judge me. I've been married almost 40 years, so I have perspective.

Sheila, what I love is your conferences, you're dealing with the heart of issues. You're not just trying to teach people how to sell something or trying to teach people how to manage people. You're dealing with the heart. Like your event that you just had in 2025 in April of 2025, talk to me about what was the theme this year.

Sheila Arrington: The theme was Grace and Grit, and we talked about the grace of God and how layered the grace of God is. The grace of God for salvation, the grace of God for empowerment, the grace of God for equipping, the grace of God just to live daily, and then grit, because sometimes that piece is missed. Sometimes people forget. The people that we study in the Bible, I don't think any of them had an easy life.

So we, sometimes the Christian message gets skewed that if things are happening and they're not going very well for me, what's wrong with me? No, you're just fine. And God wants you to get some grit in your life. Because this life is pretty gritty and you need resilience to do the things that God has called you to do. And I was able to really go back to one of my favorite stories to just talk about scripture, really, the Lord dropped on my heart: " if you cannot run with the footman, how are you going to contend with the horses?"

So that was my scripture that I shared, and that really is about in the everyday bumps, trials and tribulations of life, we can't let them take us out because for those of us who are really called to do and be part of the army, to be part of that remnant of God, there's coming days where we are gonna have to contend with horses. And really what that means is there's gonna be some trials ahead that are going to be steep and they're going to be heavy. And we got to be able to be in relationship with God. We have to be close to him. We have to know him intimately to be able to contend with the horses that are going to be in our lives.

That was really the focus of let's understand what God's grace will keep us and hold us. But we have to get in there with the resilience and the grit of life and to push forward into the things that we are called to do.

Jim Brangenberg: When you say grit... often on iWork4Him, I say that God uses adversity in our lives to take us from who we are to who He can use more effectively. Are you talking about the kind of grit that wears off our rough edges?

Sheila Arrington: Talking about two things really that will happen in Christ, but I'm talking the grit of resilience.

Jim Brangenberg: So determination, resilience. Okay, got it. Okay.

Sheila Arrington: Yes, to be able to, just like 1 Peter 5: 10 where he talks about that through suffering, you will what? Be perfected, established, and become firm.

Jim Brangenberg: But Sheila, we're talking about retirement. We're in a retirement show. People who are retiring don't want, they don't think they need grit anymore. They don't expect any adversity. They don't expect, they expect to be on a life of pleasure. They're expecting life to be perfect. Yet, if we're gonna continue to follow Jesus, in the dust of his steps, we should expect that, shouldn't we? Because God's not done with this. Just 'cause we quote unquote retire.

Sheila Arrington: First of all, Jim, you know we talked about this a long time ago. Do you retire in God?

Jim Brangenberg: If you do, I'm pretty if sure you're follower Jesus and you quote unquote retire in God, the adversity's gonna come fast and furious because he doesn't let us just sit there and get moldy. He does not.

Sheila Arrington: My thought is if you retire in God, you're not here. (laughter)

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. Good point. He's gonna take you out?

Sheila Arrington: Yes, you've lived your days and that's it. God has plans for us all the way until he brings us home and unfortunately, that is why we get all that beauty on the other side. But here we get some beauty, we get some great things, there's beautiful things that happen in our lives, but literally we are here to glorify God.

That is why we are here. The other day the Holy Spirit put on my heart the intricate pattern of a butterfly and just how that glorifies God. The intricacies of our life are to glorify him, and that's why we're here. We're here because of him. Sometimes man gets it twisted. It's about us. No, it's about him. We are here to glorify him. Everything that he created is to glorify him, and so we have to keep our eyes, if you would say, on the prize. And the prize is Jesus Christ.

Jim Brangenberg: Okay. But lemme just, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna be devil's advocate for a second.

Sheila Arrington: I love that. Okay. Come on.

Jim Brangenberg: Because most people, when they think of glorifying God, they think they're doing things. You know, that there are human doings. Yet after your conference in April, the Lord called you into sabbatical to do nothing. That's what people think - to do nothing. But yet God had you doing something very specific. What was the specific thing God had you doing in sabbatical that you believe He's calling us all to do?

Sheila Arrington: To sit at his feet, to rest, to love on him, to just love on him, to build your relationship with him. I said it before and I'll say it again: it is not about assignment. The assignments come out of relationship with him, outta sitting next to him.

God will tell you, you know, what he wants you to do. And it's a daily walk. We wanna get our calendars full. We want to have all of our ducks in a row. And sometimes God just wants to say, you know what? When your calendar's so full, you don't see Mrs. Jones across the street that is hurting.

Jim Brangenberg: It's so true.

Sheila Arrington: Because your calendar is so full. Sit at my feet. Let me tell you who to call today. And he will do it. I wanna talk if I can, to the person who is saying, I don't know how that can operate in my life. That sounds really for someone who really is walking with the Lord. But I wanna say this to you, just start with the sitting down quiet one day. You don't have to have an agenda to come to God. You just sit down and if you have some questions, you can write 'em down or you can just ask them.

Just talk to him like you would talk to a person that you could see sitting next to you. It's really just that easy, sometimes we get so caught up. Oh, I can't hear. I can't hear. What do I say? What do I say? Say what's on your mind.

Jim Brangenberg: Yes. God's not afraid. God's not afraid to hear what's on our minds. Sheila, when you say these things in front of other fellow retirees - because listen, I could sit and listen to you forever 'cause I agree. And Martha and I are both one of those, we're so busy doing, we need to learn. It's a skill we all need to learn, the being with God, the abiding, just being quiet.

When you explain this to your fellow retirees, because you live in Retirement Village now. You're in Arizona, the whole state, okay, 80% of the state, they're retired and on a permanent vacation. When you start to speak to retirees that there's meaning and purpose in their retirement years to come, that they're not endorsed, certainly the ones that are Jesus followers, not endorsed to check out and be done for life, but that they should start with being with God so they can get their assignment out of relationship, what kinda responses do you get?

Sheila Arrington: A lot of it is that, I never thought of it like that. It's just, I never thought to just sit with him. I never thought to just write down some questions. I never thought - and the hesitancy comes from, what if I don't hear back? Then we talk about trust and then there's some other things of teaching that has to come in. And it's not, it's not a roadmap. Everyone is different, and it's just getting out there really exploring.

Jim Brangenberg: That's so true. It's not a roadmap. I love that.

Sheila Arrington: And purpose has never been a destination. It's always been a journey. Your destination is on the other side. It's not here. And that is why it is so important for me, I have to tell you, I'm gonna just tell on myself, okay? The Lord, as I've been in the sabbatical, one morning he's telling me, I want you to get out your journals. Go get your journals. And I said, okay, I am going through my journals. I said, I'm not finding anything that's just touching me. All of a sudden, Jim, I find a journal that I wrote, 2023. You know what it said?

Sit with me, refocus, be present with me. All of the things that I was thinking this, he had been telling me that. How many out there has God been saying something like that to you?

Jim Brangenberg: Phew. For two years, me. He's been saying that to me. Sheila, I love the example, and I love how you're pouring your life into other women. Sheila arrington ministries.com, I believe. Is it.com or.org? I should've known.

Sheila Arrington: Oh, sheila arrington's ministries.com is the get to my website.

Jim Brangenberg: And we'll have all the connections in the show notes so you can get ahold of Sheila. Maybe you wanna spend some time with Sheila and she's got a conference coming up next April, 2026. You're gonna wanna be there.

But Sheila, you're a great encouragement because you are in the middle of retirement world in Arizona and you can be a great encouragement to let people know, Hey, we're not done yet. Sheila, thanks for being back on iRetire4Him, for sharing more of your story. The last time we only had nine minutes of it. Today we got a lot of it. Thank you Sheila, for coming back on.

Sheila Arrington: Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure.

Jim Brangenberg: You've been listening to iRetire4Him with your host Jim Brangenberg. In this retirement phase of life, I want my life to be full of meaning and purpose so that I could say iRetire4Him.