7/23/25 - 2104: Lean Manufacturing... or Biblical Stewardship?

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. And our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Furniture. Who makes the best furniture in the country? The best furniture is made by craftsmen and it's made to last. Where do you find fine quality furniture like this? When it's built by the craftsmen within the Amish community, of course. There are so many things the average American and average Christ follower don't know or understand about the Amish community, but we all know when they build something, it's built to last and it's built with quality. From their farmsteads to their furniture. Quality is evident. Everywhere.

Today we get a glimpse into the Amish community and the best furniture made in America, built to last for generations. Ernie Hershberger joins us today from Homestead Furniture in Mount Hope, Ohio to share his story of faith, family, and furniture. Ernie, welcome to iWork4Him.

Ernest Hershberger: Thank you. When I was listening, I was thinking, wow, I wouldn't mind being Amish.

 (laughter)

Jim: There you go. You'd have great furniture then, wouldn't you?

Ernest Hershberger: That was quite a bio, so I appreciate that. But yeah, we do build a couple pieces of furniture.

Jim: Yeah, and we're gonna get into that in a little bit, but we always start off a show with a first time guest, Ernie, just talking about Jesus. When did Jesus impact your life? When did you, when did Jesus become your Lord and Savior? Tell us that story.

Ernest Hershberger: That always a kind of a loaded question for me, and I've grappled with that because, so I don't remember. I never had like an active conversion per se. And people would ask me all the time, when did you meet the Lord? And how did that transaction go?

And so I finally ended up reaching out to a pastor or like a counselor, and he said, my kids don't have that radical conversion either because we read to our children when they were still in the womb and we talked to 'em about Jesus and all that. And so the same thing happened for us. I grew up in a Christian family, very strong faith. And for the biggest conversion, I wouldn't call it conversion, but the acceptance of the baptism, I went through at I think 19 or 18 or 19, but as far as Jesus being my Lord, I never don't remember him being my Lord.

And spiritually, you go through ebbs and flows and there's questions. And sometimes you wonder, where am I going? It's fleeting and you always come back to scripture and you come back to the word and it's the truth. All the answers are there, but as a human being, sometimes I forget about that. But Jesus has been in my life as long as, I never remember him not being part of my life.

Jim: That's a beautiful thing and everybody's faith story is so different. And we interviewed somebody earlier today that said the same thing. He's, I don't know. There wasn't a date because I knew Jesus and knew about Jesus from the minute I was born. And that's fantastic. But the good news is you didn't say, I don't really want what mom and dad have. You're like, no, I want what mom and dad have. I wanna reproduce it in my own family.

Martha: So thank you for sharing that, and I know we're gonna continue to unpack, a better understanding of where God has you in life, but one of the things we really wanna know is when did you realize that our Heavenly Father had given you this gift to be able to run a large furniture company?

Ernest Hershberger: I didn't. (laughter) I struggle with those types of questions because I was taught from a young age to be a good steward of the talent that God gave you, be it mowing the lawn or doing your chores or whatever it may be. And so I have people still today ask me like, what would you do if you could do anything that you wanted in the world?

And I honestly, at 56 years of age, my answer's always the same. I don't know. All I know is I want to be a great steward of the talent that God gave me. And yes, I have manufacturing in my history. I'm a fourth generation woodworker coming from high end custom kitchen cabinets, married a girl in Mount Hope that their family was all in retail, and my wife and her parents started Homestead Furniture six months before we got married. And so I married into that, but I was still very much vested in the kitchen cabinet company. It took me a while even as owners of this furniture company to come home and dive deeper into it.

And I still today, as economies ebb and flow and, we have our ups and downs in the workforce and even in the field of furniture. I'm not married to furniture production. I just want to be a great steward of wherever Christ placed me with the talent that he's given me. And he, and I think he expects me to constantly work on that talent so that I'm prepared to serve at whatever level and capacity that he wants me to serve. Because there are days that I would just that I say, Lord, why do you make me work so hard?

 (laughter)

Martha: So does he give you an answer?

Ernest Hershberger: Here's the answer that I get back and this kind of ties in with the whole stewardship thing of talent, is I am under the full understanding on my side that my reward is not going to be on this side of the grave.

Jim: Correct.

Ernest Hershberger: And so I will put in every effort of what it will take to be a great steward of whatever is set on my path, be it easy, be it hard, be it a struggle, whatever it may be. And so that has really helped me over the years is that I don't expect the reward on this side. I'm working for the reward on the other side by serving him from the bottom of my heart. And, I'm not perfect. I don't always get it done, but that is what I want to do.

Jim: And that's a phenomenal answer because you're right. We're called to be stewards. We're called to be good steward, called to be faithful stewards. And there's so many things you could probably do with the talents that God built into your DNA and then built into your family line. But right now he's got you running a furniture store. How many employees do you have?

Ernest Hershberger: We don't have that many employees. We're very specific with high-end custom furniture, so we have about 20 employees at this point. It ebbs and flows. And so I don't really, I guess specifically keep track of the employee side. What I care about at the end of the day is that we have raving fans of Homestead Furniture that love telling their story of how we serve them.

And we have customers in every state of the United States and 10 countries, and we only advertise in a small arena around us within the state of Ohio, maybe a hundred miles. All the rest is word of mouth. And that's part of our generational stewardship plan is taking care of customers to the level that they really want to tell our story and spread it. And so it ties in with all that, yeah.

Martha: Okay. So you just used the word generational stewardship. So you're second generation then for the company?

Ernest Hershberger: So I'm fourth generation in woodworking on my mom's side of the family. That goes back to 1918. I'm first generation in the furniture retail side and manufacturing. So I tell people I'm a fourth generation woodworker, but first generation in Homestead because my wife started that company six months before we got married.

Martha: Fabulous. When we talk about you, why do you do what you do? And Ernie just telling us about the stewardship call on our lives. It's such a great question and sometimes people actually ask Jim and I that question, why do you do what you do?

And if I had to bottom line it, I would say it's to help others learn how important every day of their lives is to the kingdom. All of life is critical - our work, our home, our play, our volunteer hours, our financial stewardship, and our relationships. iWork4Him as a resource for believers to see how much every aspect of life, including work, is to be stewarded. So go to iWork4Him.com/jointhenation to learn more about how to implement these values into your every day.

Jim: Ernie, you've chosen to follow Jesus and live the Amish lifestyle. How do those two things mesh together?

Ernest Hershberger: So we get this question a lot being a retail store, and I understand the kinda isolatedness of being Amish. It's our culture and our lifestyle, and people, think it's a cult, but it's not. And so we grow up - I don't know of an Amish guy that's not, or any Amish families that aren't Christian. And so it's, the best I can explain is why do we want to live more conservatively?

And one of our older bishops puts it, I think, really good in perspective is, church standards help create the absence of temptation. Does not take the temptation away. And I drive a really nice black friesian horse. I can have all the pride in the world. I don't have to have a Lamborghini to be prideful, I can do it with my horse.

So I'm not talking about those types of things. But I do value, as a person, and if people ask me those types of questions, I say, you don't have to be Amish to create a holistic hedge around you. God gave Job that. If you know your weaknesses and strength as a person, then think about what gets you into trouble and what keeps you at peace and what makes you sleep at night. And then create that type of hedge.

And so I look at myself as being fortunate to grow up in a conservative Amish community, but by no means do you have to be Amish to get your reward in heaven. Bible doesn't talk about that. Jesus doesn't know us as an Amish person. He knows us as a Christian but the Amish lifestyle is a Christian lifestyle wrapped around the Christian principles of our salvation. So our salvation is no different than, and people get this mixed up.

They ask me all the time, do you know Jesus? Oh, and I say yeah, Jesus, I recognize myself as a sinner. I found Christ. He died for my sins. He rose. And I have a living hope and my faith in him, and they say, hallelujah. And I'm like what do you think we are? But they get it mixed up. They think Amish is some form of something. I don't know.

I appreciate you asking that question because it's one of my goals in life is all the movies, all the books, all the things that have been written about the Amish have missed the point. They try to represent that, oh, this happened, or that happened, or they talk about the black sheep of the family that was upset, and we're no different than any other culture in life. I think what's important is that our faith is in Christ, and if we so choose to live a conservative lifestyle, then so be it.

There's some value there, and if you don't, then I think you ought to build a little hedge around you to keep yourself safe from crisis points and that's my perspective of me growing up as an Amish person.

Jim: It's a great perspective and we all should be doing things to put ourselves in an area to not be surrounded by temptation. Obviously we have to make choices. Martha and I live in southwest Missouri. It's a lot easier to do that here in southwest Missouri than it was in a big city, but there's pros and cons to all of it, but it's a matter of being led by the spirit. And the spirit led you there and has kept you there and is using you as an influencer there.

Martha: Yeah I think that's probably where that question comes from, Ernie, is that in our own experience within churches we've been a part of, there are people that take their faith very seriously and some that don't, and some, or some that don't even understand what they're missing.

And so I think that's probably the curiosity. And getting this opportunity, which we are so grateful, you have been so kind, and I just feel like we've known you for a long time already, just by your openness and your willingness to talk with us.

So let's talk a little bit more about the business. You've been running Homestead Furniture for 35 years, is that correct?

Ernest Hershberger: Correct, yes.

Martha: Okay. So how does your faith impact the operation of the company?

Ernest Hershberger: It's integrated throughout ,I mean, it's how we implement the biblical human relationship laws of how Christ set the example and talked about biblically of how we treat each other, how we love each other, how we serve each other. And all those things. And even with the lean manufacturing perspective that we bring to the factory, if I waste an hour of motion, you as a customer have to pay me more because I gotta cover that cost. And especially in America with American labor, American hardwoods, all that. So it's extremely important.

And so people in the world out there call it lean. I say lean is the heathen term of biblical stewardship. And so biblical stewardship of us serving each other and loving on each other dictates everything from our culture, the vision for our company that's on my shoulders as a steward, and then my responsibility. I'm on our local hospital board and I call 'em our sheep, and our employees are our sheep. As a shepherd, our sheep, if our sheep are hurting, I'm hurting. If our sheep are at peace, I'm at peace.

And so if our employees are at peace, that means we've gotten underneath them, we've lifted them up, they have direction, we've given them the tools to be successful. They can serve their customers, our customers that come through the door at a high level of whatever needs to be done. And even to the point, like I give ownership to employees to take care of a customer.

If a customer's upset, the question that should be asked is, what is it that I can do to make you happy? And they do it. And we serve clients across the world that way, and that's why we have raving fans and customers all over, and we only advertise in a small local area. And so it's part of our DNA and culture at our family and our businesses of how we treat people. I don't know how else to put it.

Martha: I love what you said though is that that lean manufacturing to you is a biblical principle because you're being a good steward of all that. I think it's comes down to what you're saying is the spirit of why you're doing it, because there's lean manufacturers that do it because of greed. They want a tighter expense so that they can make more money. But you're honoring your customer. Like your heart is in what you are explaining there. That is so beautiful and I think that makes a big difference and probably draws a lot of those people to be repeat customers too, which is wonderful.

Ernest Hershberger: We have a lot of customers and talking about that, we're actually, we started this in 2001 when we opened the new store. We do an apple crisp and a homemade ice cream in the fall, and then the first week in June we have homemade strawberry pie and ice cream. So starting tomorrow we have homemade pie, strawberry pie, and ice cream.

And we'll serve anywhere from 200 to 400 pies to customers that come and we'll have, like there's been years that we had 4,000 people come through our store on that week. Now, this week we're not expecting quite as much just because of the economy and things like that. So it's scale back, but we'll probably have close to 2000 people come through our store this week.

Jim: I'd drive to Ohio for a good piece of Amish strawberry pie. Are you kidding? Oh man. (laughter)

Martha: We should have timed to this a little bit differently.

Jim: We should have done this one on location. That's what we should have done.

Martha: Next year. Next year. Okay. So you said you have about 20 employees. Are most of them family?

Ernest Hershberger: No. We have seven children and the girls, two of the girls that are married, their husbands have great jobs, and so they're homemakers. And then I have four boys. And all four boys are involved in the business at this point. And then the rest are neighbors, church members, people in the community, woodworkers that wanna be woodworkers, or woodworkers that wanna learn how to work, and stuff like that.

So we're all over the place, between sales, delivery and, finishing and manufacturing, all that.

Jim: Alright. Is everybody there working for you already a Jesus follower? Do you invite some in so they can find Jesus working for you?

Ernest Hershberger: Both. And it ebbs and flows, depends what's going on, but yeah. The answer's yes. Yep.

Jim: Okay.

Ernest Hershberger: We hope to influence the ones that aren't.

Jim: Absolutely. That's your mission field. That's an incredible mission field. And you're providing for their family and you're introducing them to Jesus. What better job is there than that?

All right. So I studied your website 'cause it's incredible. I'm a furniture appreciator. I can't build furniture. Amish furniture is very typically very conservative with a relatively few finish options. You go nuts. You could go conservative to totally modern French expressionist with over 3000 different finishes available. How in the world do you serve such a wide audience? That's an incredible palette.

Ernest Hershberger: It all started off with me never wanting to say no to a customer. And I was a student as a young kid to lean manufacturing. I traveled to Toyota, toured their plant, traveled to Ford Rouge in Dearborn, Michigan, toured their plant, started, percolating those ideas.

And then when the light bulb went on that this is just good biblical stewardship, I got out my stopwatch and I created a flow code troll sheet and we mapped every process of everything that was happening, and we just leaned everything out. And so it, that is the nuts and bolts of, other than me wanting to serve, I hate saying no. And here's how I tell people, I think it's the biblical way of serving each other - why should I manufacture a piece of furniture in a box and send it to a warehouse that then sends it to a retail store that then the salesperson's job is to convince the customer that this is what they want?

If you walk into our retail showroom, we have 27,000 square feet of show space. We have all these different hardwood pieces. We have 10 different brands in upholstery. And our goal is to be all American made, which we're not a hundred percent because the accessories. I can't buy a lamp from America anymore, almost. Here and there I can. So then you think about it, nothing starts till you tell me what direction you want to go.

And so as a salespeople, we create furniture for you in a short lead time. So you can get a custom bedroom set or a custom dining room set that you control the species, size, chairs, fabric, whatever that it is that you want, and you gimme a deposit. I say go, about on average 12 to 14 weeks I'll have that furniture set in your home, and it's specifically built for you. And the only reason I can do it is the lean manufacturing technique and the whole team wants to serve. We love serving customers.

And you think about it, when you build something special for a customer that they're gonna keep for their lifetime and past down to the next generation, and it's exactly what they've been imagining, and it's such a wonderful feeling. And a different feeling than if you just sell something outta the box and deliver it the next day. And listen, I wanna clarify this because I have, we all need Walmart. And I don't have a problem with anybody that is building something for Walmart.

I don't have a problem with that. I don't think it's unbiblical to build something for Walmart. It's just not my calling. To steward the talent that God gave me is to do this, and I followed along, and I have peace with it, and we have great love and what we're doing for our customer base by doing that.

Martha: That's beautiful.

Jim: All right. But you didn't answer my whole question now, so lemme just go back to it. The question was, okay, typical Amish furniture is pretty conservative. It's wonderful. It's beautiful, but you've got this other brand line that's not Homestead Furniture. It's, I can't remember the, even the name of it.

Ernest Hershberger: Abner Henry.

Jim: Abner Henry. That it is wild. It's crazy. It's colorful, it's unique shapes. Where did that come from?

Ernest Hershberger: By listening to customers. And in 2008 we launched Abner Henry. So Abner is my great-grandpa, Henry is my dad. So that's where the family name comes from.

And so Homestead serves the residential customers, and Abner serves the design industry. So when you get into the design industry, there's a whole different level of scale and refinement and flexibility in the design. So we're more conservative at Homestead, but not necessarily.

If you look at the Homestead website, we have a broader spectrum because we have a fairly broad spectrum of customers that are asking for this. You get to the design arena, now, they want glass and wood and metal and, like our creation with the Metropolitan Museum of Art, there's a whole collection of about 25 pieces that's all inspired by the facade of the Met.

And it's just a different customer. And we have the ability to serve both. And I sarcastically sometimes point out to designers, 'cause they look at the furniture, they look at me and then they look at the furniture again and they look at me and they say, you're Amish.

And I say, yeah. And? And they say you're not supposed to be able to do that. And I'm like, why not? And so I sometimes, like I said, I sarcastically say, tell me what's Amish about that. And they're like, it's good quality but it's just it's a different platform and we have the greatest fun with it. It's just, it's so much fun.

Martha: Okay, so this is how I see it. You're working for Homestead and you kept having these crazy, this customer wants this crazy thing and this crazy thing. Hey, let's create a company so that every time I come in, I don't have people saying we can't make that.

So I just see this scenario here. You're creative. And you're willing to make the customer happy and create the beautiful productions that no one could get anywhere else. And that is why you have the reputation that you have and that you have the customer base from every state in America as well as you said 10 other countries, customers that are coming. And the demand is there. I just think it's fantastic.

Jim: It is unbelievable. I just get giddy, think about all the options that Ernie has to offer and all the resources that we have to offer here at iWork4Him. Just like Ernie can offer thousands of finishes for the furniture that they built at Homestead and Abner Henry, we can offer you, our listeners, thousands of podcasts, blogs, ministries, books, and a host of other things in our website.

Go to iWork4Him.com today and click around and make sure you check out our sponsors because they're the people that help keep our show on the air. I know you'll be glad that you did. There's something for everyone literally - man, woman, retiree, employee, boss, and so much more.

Ernie, one of the things we know about business is it's there to be a blessing to the owner, be a blessing to the employees, be a blessing to the vendors and the customers, but also be a blessing to the community.

How, and I know you said Mount Hope's pretty small community, but your community is bigger. Ohio's got all kinds of fantastic communities in it. How has your business impacted the community that you operate within?

Martha: In addition to Strawberry Pie and apple crisp. (laughing)

Jim: Strawberry pie, ice cream, imagine homemade ice cream, homemade strawberry pie. Why weren't we doing this show on location? I'm just trying to figure that out. Okay. But talk about impact on the community.

Ernest Hershberger: Listen, we're stewards for Jesus. And so when it comes to cash, people as a rule, or I shouldn't say as a rule, because I don't wanna point any fingers because I was caught in the same trap. And that is that I used to ask myself a question - I need cash, I need profits, I need all this, and that's all true.

But when I switched it to asking myself a question of how much of Jesus's money do I need for myself? That changed the whole perspective of what tithing means and how we serve the community, the widows, the poor people, the people that need help. They might not all need cash, they might just need a loving word, a pat on the back.

We had an old bishop that I grew up underneath and he said a good pat on the back is really good for everybody, but just make sure it's not too high up on the back. (laughter) And it's all a perspective of how we serve each other. And so my goal is that we look at it from that perspective and when we reach out and organizations need help, employees get involved, we donate pieces.

Maybe it's cash or whatever it may be, but it's really His, I'm only a steward. And I preach this is I want Jesus to live his life through me. It's one thing for me to live for Jesus. It's another thing for him to live his life through me. And I try to keep that front and perspective for me.. That helps me stay straight and narrow and not get greedy.

Martha: That's awesome. Okay, so you said that you have four boys working in the company with you. Is this intended to be a generational company for the family? Will they be the next to carry it on?

Ernest Hershberger: Our goal is to be a generational company.

Martha: Okay.

Ernest Hershberger: Everything is tailored toward that. I've told my children from a young age up that they're not obligated to work at Homestead or Henry, but, they feel the magic and they love the company and they're a vital part of it at this point. And we fully expect them to continue in the culture, the stewardship of their talents, and with our hope that this company will be around for a long time.

Jim: How many pieces of furniture do you think you guys have built in the 35 years that you've been running the business?

Ernest Hershberger: Oh. I honestly don't have any idea. I know, oh, there have been years that we shipped over 5,000 pieces of furniture.

Martha: Wow.

Ernest Hershberger: We've shipped a lot of product.

Jim: Wow. So a hundred thousand plus pieces, that's amazing. And so you're families, like you said, in every state in America and in 10 additional countries. And just knowing that stuff's gonna be there forever 'cause nobody, amish furniture doesn't ever make the dumpster. We know that for a fact because it's just so incredible.

Martha's sister's got a bunch of it that she got when she was living in Iowa. I'm always hoping maybe we'll get a hand me down or something.

Alright. Your values as an organization for Homestead Furniture, I got this off your website, see the future, engage and develop others, reinvent continuously value results, and value relationships and embody the values.

How does that play out? What's that look like on a day-to-day basis there?

Ernest Hershberger: I created that, I shouldn't say I created, I loaned that acronym from Serve. So I forget exactly where I saw it, but I loved it. And so we integrate that into our culture and we don't do this a hundred percent perfect, but our goal is to give every employee a one-on-one every month or as they progress through. Maybe they're a newer employee and we try to give them that opportunity and build that trust and create the vision for them and give them their, we call it running lane and their job description, and we empower them within that running lane to do do their jobs.

And so we go through this. And so one thing that I didn't have on the website, so under see the future, I've got wisdom, discernment, and resourcefulness. And so we literally grade ourselves by these words of value to help us grow and strengthen ourselves and see the future. Wisdom is at the top of the game. There's just nowhere biblically to get around knowledge we gain just by what we do day by day. Wisdom is a hundred percent godsend. If we can make a decision today that is right for tomorrow, we have to have wisdom. We need a lot of discernment, be able to weed through the clutter and then make a decision.

I'm one of these guys that I use the Trinity pattern. Father, Son, Holy Spirit is three. I discovered years ago that a lot of things work in threes, and when I started paying attention to it, God has given me a lot on my plate. But when I hear three vibes, and it could be in the uniquest place. It could be my wife at dinner, just out of the blue, make a comment about something. It could be an employee that says something, could be a customer, could be a friend at church that says, Hey, I've been thinking about whatever. And I'm like what? And it is the final straw to a decision.

And so I try to stay within that and it's really kept me safe in a lot of areas if I pay attention to it. And then the resourcefulness of see the future is that you have to be willing to make an adjustment. If you made the decision yesterday, so if I made a decision yesterday with the best of my knowledge and wisdom, and tomorrow I recognize that it's not quite right then I encourage people to not then - I meet so many people that think they're dumb and they made a mistake, and it's no, you didn't make a mistake as long as you adjusted because here's the other trinity pattern. And I see it all the time. It literally happens all the time, is we make a decision, we adjust it, and by the third time it's like perfect, and it's running full steam.

And I see my competition and competitors, they're stuck on trying to make the perfect decision and then they fall behind. And I even see it in other industries, if people ask me, I coach other businesses, and it's no, you gotta go. You feel good about it? Now go for it - tomorrow, next week, three months from now, six months from now, make the adjustment as God gives it to you and stay running.

So that's very important. And then they engage and develop others. We have to have a high level of empathy. I mean you read about it more, never heard of this term till a couple years ago, is emotional intelligence that ties right into the empathy side. And so we need to communicate that.

We need to show empathy and that creates trustworthiness and then we can engage and develop others. I tell people, you might be on my payroll, but I'm the steward and I learn as much from you as you will from me. And so don't be afraid of that. I need to build that trust so that people can lead up.

And then reinvent continuously: you gotta be bold, you gotta be courageous, and you gotta be decisive. No, you can't reinvent and decide that I'm gonna do 10 species, 3000 finishes, unlimited sizing, width, height, and depth and then say, oh boy, it'd be nice if I could dive deeper into the lean manufacturing. No, you gotta dive in. You gotta go, we're serving at a high level. Who's telling you to not go? It's not the good spirit that's telling you to not go.

And so then value the results and relationships. It's very important that everybody feels and takes ownership and that they want to be great stewards of their job descriptions, what they've got, and then we have to have a whole lot of humility because we're not perfect. We're sinners, we're not perfect. And we need a lot of latitude among each other and lift each other up. And as soon as we start pointing fingers or I call it sideways energy, then we just tear each other down and we just don't allow it. I get caught with it sometimes. And if I get called out by an employee, I thank him.

And then embody the values. We have to be accountable to the values. We need to be able to teach, and we should be teachable, and then we gotta have a great attitude about it. And so that's our, we call it our great purpose. Serve with excellence. And I got a little pen here that I engraved and makes me, I didn't think about this till it's engraved, it says Relentless Pursuit of excellence. And it ties right in with this. I've been carrying this pen for years. It's a wooden pen. Walnut. No, it's rosewood. And I don't lose it. If I lose it, I go find it.

Jim: Yeah, because you love it. Ernie, when you describe all that, it sounds like a phenomenal place to work and a great place to buy furniture because if those things are being embodied, every piece has that kinda love that kind of investment made into it.

And that's phenomenal. We encourage everybody listening to the show today, check out Homestead Furniture online.com and Abner Henry, I think it's abner henry.com, isn't it? Yep, that's right. And you're gonna be blown away 'cause it's beautiful stuff. I wish I had a house that, that stuff would fit into. Ernie, we're outta time. Is there any final words you'd like to leave with our audience today?

Ernest Hershberger: Serve. Get rid of self. Serve at a high level. Let Christ lead you. Trust, and move forward and expect your reward to be after the grave.

Jim: Beautiful. Ernie Hershberger, thanks for being on iWork4Him.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers in our workplace. It's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

7/16/25 - 2103: Selling Without Selling Out

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Newsflash: most kingdom-minded business owners destroy their culture when they leave or retire. I've seen it over and over. They sell to the highest bidder, or so they think, and when they do, it's usually to a private equity firm. These firms come in, clean house, make the bottom line look awesome, and destroy culture because all they want to do is gain 40% yearly return and sell it four times the price they paid. Five years down the road it doesn't matter that the private equity firm promised to preserve your kingdom culture, it rarely happens.

I've witnessed countless former owners who made a lot of money on the sale, but mourn the loss of all that they poured into their former company, and the loss of a culture that celebrated God and honored people. Love God, love people? Yeah, I recognize that.

We're called in Romans 12:2 to change the way we think. And today, Brandt Brereton will do just that. He's going to bring a solution to the table that solves this problem and honors God with people and still lets the owner retire and make a great profit. Win. Brandt Brereton, welcome to iWork4Him.

Brandt Brereton: Thank you, Jim. And Martha.

Jim: Did I get the last name right, Brandt? I forgot to ask before we started recording. Is that okay? Did I do okay?

Brandt Brereton: You did really well.

Jim: All right, Brandt, we do this with every guest when it's the first time they're on the show. Tell us your Jesus story. When did Jesus change your life?

Brandt Brereton: Yeah, so twofold the answer, I would say. I accepted Christ at age 10 in a Southern Baptist church that we grew up in. But despite that, I would say God benched me. He loved me enough to bench me from investment banking at age 49. And through a series of circumstances, literally gave me no choice but to join this international ministry, evangelical ministry called City Team. So think Inner City Rescue Mission in six different major cities with this seemingly orthogonal other ministry of church planting among various people groups, Muslim people groups in Sub-Saharan Africa.

For example, I got to spend three weeks in Sierra Leone, totally eye-opening experience. So for two and a half years, God benched me for repairs, grounded for repairs, is how I put it, and got me really clear on, I was wrapped around the axel on money, like a lot of us in finance are, and he got me really clear in that two years of grounded for repairs time on money, stewardship, just things that I never would've taken the time to do the deep dive on, and frankly wasn't hearing a lot from pulpits on.

And so that experience, I would say, really informs my conviction to solve this problem and, we can talk about it more, but when you look at the richness of ministry that is happening inside Business as Ministry, so I use this term, BAM acronym, Business as Ministry, I'm sure you guys are all familiar with, really informs like the conviction that I know that this is what I'm supposed to do with the rest of my life. And meeting like-minded men and forming this investment fund to really get serious and intentional about solving the problem.

Martha: That's super. It's interesting that you say, and I think we hear a lot of people say this, that whatever it is that we're internally wrestling with, we may not be hearing it other places. So God is, God has churned you, he benched you, as you said, and had you on the ground for repairs, and the fact that you acknowledge that and that you actually utilized that and allowed him to grow you is huge. And I don't want that to be lost on our listeners because sometimes we can feel like nobody else is wrestling with this issue I'm wrestling with, but God has a plan.

And so this plan, ultimately we're gonna talk about the book that God has written through you called Perpetuate. Jim is holding it up for the YouTube watchers. This problem that you're talking about is perpetuating kingdom culture from the founder to whatever that next is, it's rarely done well, or maybe even done at all. Why is this such an issue for people today?

Brandt Brereton: Yeah, you're right. Here's how I would put it. Imagine a spectrum. In the spectrum are lower middle market business owners that demographically, most of us are baby boomers, have to sell for liquidity. And on the left side of that spectrum are people that just say, I need to get as much cash as I can possibly get, shift the business risk to the third party as much as possible, as fast as possible.

Jim: Hang on, I wanna explain a couple things because you're using financial words and not everybody understands it. Basically the business owner needs to sell it 'cause he's got all of his cash and investments tied up in his business. So he needs cash in order to live in retirement. And the lie in there is that he thinks he needs to get all of it out because he is worried he's not gonna have enough money to get to the end and he or she forgets that God is his provider.

And so they think I've gotta have all this money so that I could do the - I can go on vacation for 30 years. Again, retirement's not biblical. Go to iRetire4Him.com. We have a long conversation about that. We also have a book and a podcast about that. So two lies that are feeding into all this. I wanna make sure that people understand. People think, I gotta have enough money because I've gotta be able to go on vacation for 30 years and pay all my bills. Because I deserve it.

Martha: Because I've worked hard all these years.

Jim: It's right. It's the lie that the American dream is biblical. Okay.

Brandt Brereton: So that's what the world tells us. That's what Wall Street tells us. It's not in the Bible. And I couldn't agree more. And by the way, what makes that so hard to do is the level of taxation, which I'll get into because this strategy, well-worn strategy, addresses the tax issues.

But the spectrum, right? So there's those people that they're not, they don't care about perpetuating the culture of the business. They're just trying to solve for money. On the other very extreme end of the spectrum are deeply committed owners of purpose-driven companies, and they're going to perpetuate the independence and the kingdom impact of the business no matter how much cash on the barrel head.

But if you move one quadrant to the left on that spectrum, and you're in the middle of that curve where most people are being seduced by private equity groups, most of which are secular, trying to get more cash at close than they could get historically from the ESOP transaction, there's a lot, thousands of BAM owners and stewards that if you told them that they could get the same amount of cash at close that they're gonna get by selling to a secular, private equity group, but they get to retain control of the board and perpetuate the kingdom impact and culture of the business because of that retained control...

Jim: Okay. Again, I'm gonna stop you. Just, I wanna make sure I explain stuff because you've got a lot of stuff in your head that makes sense to you. And a lot of people listening today go I don't, tell me, wait a minute. Say this again. The issue is that a lot of owners, as they're trying to get out, they find that the easiest place to sell is not to find another owner that perpetuate and just jump in, or it's not somebody that will rise up within the ranks that's got the cash.

So they go to private equity. Private equity says, Hey, I'll give you X and that X happens to be a very attractive number, and so they sell out. But yet they've had a mindset of faith and work of business as mission. Their culture in their company is a Canaan culture where God is honored and people are loved. That's what they have, and they want that perpetuated.

And so they tell the private equity guys that, like this is what makes my company so awesome. And the private equity guys are looking at the profit and loss and the balance sheet and going, yeah, but I see an extra 200% or 300% in here that I could find if I could just get you out of the way. And so they go in and they buy this, they tell this guy whatever he needs to hear.

Martha: I was gonna say, they're probably saying yeah.

Jim: They say, yeah, sure. Uhhuh. Uhhuh, yep. Yeah, Uhhuh. And then all of a sudden they do it, and then we've heard stories in under six months all the good people are gone, the culture's destroyed. It's cut, sliced and diced and chopped and minced, and nothing is left but a shell of the original company, but it's worth a lot more money because it's more profitable. And what you're saying, Brandt, and really the summary of the Perpetuate, is that an Employee Stock Ownership Plan that can save the kingdom culture.

And when we get back to this conversation in a second, I want to really dig into that and how you got to be so passionate about it.

Martha: He got to be so passionate, and Jim, obviously this resonates with you as well because we have seen the brokenness that comes from this kind of takeover.

Jim: And anybody that's listening to this show for any amount of time understands that we have interviewed thousands of people. We have been on location at hundreds and hundreds of kingdom companies, and we have seen the decimation, the nuclear effect, of these private equity purchases. I mean, it is, it's just, it's heartbreaking. Heartbreaking.

All right. God gives each of us different passions. He's given Brandt a passion to save kingdom culture and one of our passions that Martha and I find ourselves living out is a responsibility to let others know the things that we've learned, like talking about employee stock ownership. Right now there are several things we want our listeners to know that are critical for the Kingdom on how we spend our dollars on things that support our values.

That's why we promote companies like Patriot Mobile for our mobile service, ePaymints for our processing, SaferNet to protect our computers. That's just to mention a few. Each of these companies share our values, don't hide their faith, and offer products or services that align biblically. The complete list of our sponsor page is on iWork4Him.com/sponsors. I know you'll be glad when you check that page out and start using them.

Brandt, how did you get so passionate about this subject of perpetuating kingdom culture through Employee Stock Ownership Plans?

Brandt Brereton: Yeah, I will. Let me, before I do that though, I'm gonna bounce back to that, I won't spend a bunch of time, but just that last point. So you mentioned, what you just described are secular private equity groups telling people what they want to hear in order to execute against their formula.

Jim: No, I did not. No, I did not. I did not. I am talking about Christian private equity firms that have done exactly the same thing.

Martha: Oh, ah.

Brandt Brereton: So what I would say, my observation is that Christian private equity groups and Christian family offices have generally done, generally, not always, but generally done a good job at allowing that ministry culture and those investments to continue as long as they're holding the investment. But once it's time to sell that company, because of the world that they live in and the fun life, it doesn't matter who they sell it to. And so the problem is just getting kicked down the road.

And so that's what... we all know this: good is the enemy of great. And when you can, through this structure, which is designed to perpetuate independence indefinitely, when you can do that, that's what solves the problem. And the good news is that you can solve this problem without any sacrifice. You can drive the same investment returns. You just need to spend 10 hours understanding some algebra. It really is that simple. But your question is, how did I get passionate about this?

It was the grounded for repairs season of my life to be sure. But then meeting Mike Sharrow and Greg Life, the CEOs respectively of C12 and Convene, and being exposed to these companies that are unbelievable, right? Like just take C12, 2800 companies in that network, 21,000 salvations on average per year in the work workplace, 115,000 people being discipled and probably most notably, $530 million a year coming out of the profits of those businesses into ministry. They're all baby boomers. They're getting picked off by secular, private equity groups or taking the good instead of the great solution.

And so there are people, Jim and Martha, that you and I will meet in heaven literally because of where they worked. They will never darken the door of a church, but because of where they worked and the Christian stewardship and leadership of that business and what's availed to those employees in the workforce, it's bringing thousands of people to the Lord. And we cannot sit back and just let the world, or let financiers, take advantage of it and not perpetuate the most important part of that business.

The most important part of the business isn't the money that's being generated. We, American business people use money, use people to get profits, to get business done. We use people to get profits done and what Jesus wants us to do is use business to get people done.

Jim: Boy. Say it again.

Martha: Oh, that's good. A little slower.

Brandt Brereton: We use, we collectively, American capitalists, I would say, use people to get business done. And as with everything in the kingdom that's turned on its head, what Jesus wants us to do is use business to get people done.

Jim: And I'd say it's not turning it on its head, it's turning it on its feet, 'cause we're turning it right side up.

Alright. I wanna talk about some of the examples, but I wanna go into this ESOP conversation a little bit more because people, that's the solution. And when I read your book, I'm like, okay I get this. And I loved it. It made sense to me because Martha and I have experienced this. Agonizingly have experienced this. Why are ESOPs so rarely talked about? Where did all these misperceptions come from?

Brandt Brereton: That's a great question. Tons of misconceptions. I would say that it's twofold.

One is when these laws came out in the seventies, remember the seventies, right? We were in hyperinflation, stagflation, the stock market was in the tank, and this was a really good solution for sellers of businesses back then, and so all of the CPAs that were practicing in the seventies and maybe up until 1980, really understood these, and there were no misconceptions. They were very popular.

President Reagan came in, changed the country for the better, in my opinion, deregulation, reduction in taxes. The stock market took off and has like a rocket since then, frankly. And there's this explosion of 11,000 private equity groups that got formed over all these years looking at this demographic, baby boomer seller wave, that's cresting over, 20, 30 years.

We're literally right in the middle of it right now. And the younger gen, my son is a CPA, he can barely keep up with the continuing professional education requirements. And so there's so many private equity groups hounding sellers that these CPAs and even attorneys for that matter, are just so busy answering the phone, billable hours, helping these people get these transactions done that nobody had, none of the CPAs of our generation haven't had any reason to go back and dust off those old laws and rules, and so it's just like nobody has studied it.

Some, there's a few, there's a handful throughout the country, and they're huge proponents of ESOP. So I think that's the macro answer to the question. Maybe the micro answer to the question is, and by the way, I was a hundred percent guilty of doing this as an investment banker before I did the deep dive on ESOP, so I am guilty, which is why I know that this is what happens, is I did it.

Martha: Right.

Brandt Brereton: When you don't know enough about something and you get asked about it, it's embarrassing to not be able to explain what you know. So you deflect. You make the water's muddy and you focus people on what you know, or what you want to copy. And so that's a big part of it.

Jim: So we're not gonna be able to cover all of this conversation. Obviously, I encourage you to get a copy of Perpetuate and we'll have a link to that in the show notes.

Brandt, I wanna make sure that we at least address some of really what we're talking about. We're saying, Hey, instead of selling to a private equity group, form an ESOP. So let's explain this ESOP thing because will a business owner have to sacrifice the same selling price that he would've gotten?

Let's just say that the business is worth a million dollar sale to a private equity firm. Small potatoes in today's world, but a million dollars, 'cause a million dollars barely buys a house in California today, a starter home. Not that California's a great place to move anyway, but anyway.

Martha: Off topic here, Jim. (laughter)

Jim: Off topic. Sorry. Sorry. But so let's just say a private equity group's gonna offer Bob a million dollars for his business. Can Bob get the same million dollars from an ESOP?

Brandt Brereton: Yeah, so the ESOP can match third party bids. So you're never gonna sacrifice the valuation of the business when you sell to the ESOP. What you historically sacrificed before our fund was how much cash you were gonna get. So you could sell the business for that million dollars, but instead of getting a half a million in cash and the rest over time from an outsider, you would get a hundred thousand upfront and you would carry back a seller note for 90%.

Now with our fund, so the bank lends to the ESOP, we come below the bank, subordinate to the bank, we also lend to the ESOP. So the buyer of that stock is not some fund that's trying to get control, dictate pace of exit, et cetera, and stress everybody out and make cuts. It's this trust. And the trust buys the shares from the sellers, and the trust also holds this value of stock that the employees get to slowly vest into becoming beneficiaries of the dollar value, just like a family trust.

So the employees don't have to come up with any money. They're not actually buying and holding the stock. They have no say in any kind of changes to the business. They're just like our kids and our grandkids are in our family trusts. They are beneficiaries of the dollar value that's in that trust, and they get money from the trust based on how we write the trust. Exact same concept.

Martha: So I think it's important for listeners... the owners, the founders of the companies really need to be the ones that are aware of this opportunity to do an ESOP. Because it's not like some of the employees, in most cases, they're not gonna get together and go, Hey, we should have an ESOP so we can take over and keep the company the way it is and all of that. So this conversation really needs to get to the founders and owners of these companies, is that correct?

Brandt Brereton: Correct. They need to understand that now because of capital that is lent to the ESOP, our fund and others are popping up, which is fantastic, that you can sell to the ESOP now and retain control, get a bunch of tax advantages, and get the same amount of cash.

Now it's equal. You're not making a financial sacrifice by doing the right thing and selling to the ESOP, you're gonna get the same amount of cash, same valuation, same amount of cash at close, and you get to perpetuate the kingdom impact of that business into the future.

Jim: And that is so important.

Martha: It is. So Jim and I feel really strongly about protecting our values and not compromising the things that we believe in. And earlier in the show, Jim talked about several of our show sponsors that don't compromise their values either. And another way to stay strong and resist the urge to compromise is to surround yourself with other Christians in business that can help you to keep you accountable.

The US Christian Chamber of Commerce is an organization that serves that purpose. The US Christian Chamber connects you to a national network of faith-driven businesses committed to excellence and ethics. So join the movement today. Go to US christian chamber.com and also SWC 2026. I'll put that in the show notes. That is the expo that we will be attending next year, where you can rub shoulders, sit next to each other, and experience commerce in a new kingdom way.

Jim: And not just attending, Martha. You and I will get to be emceeing that event. It'll be a lot of fun.

Alright, so Brandt, in this scenario where Bob, our business owner, doesn't sell to private equity but forms an ESOP, an Employee Stock Ownership Plan, who runs the company then? 'cause Bob wants to retire.

Brandt Brereton: Yeah, great question. So nothing changes in the ESOP structure except the shareholders. So he gets to retain control of his board of directors, right? Which is the most important aspect of this. The board does the hiring and firing of management. And so literally nothing changes except for the shareholders. And so if Bob wants to retire, then by the way, we oftentimes help. We're not gonna force ourselves on anybody, but if they ask for our help, we will collectively come in and help solve for those succession issues.

Jim: Okay. A lot of business owners don't have a board of directors 'cause they've been running the business on their own. It's been their own deal for 40 years. So you're saying they need to form a board of directors that's gonna help perpetuate their kingdom thing before they can actually do this? Because most business owners are like, I got this, I don't need no stinking board.

Brandt Brereton: Yeah. They actually, they do have boards. They just don't know it. But yes, you have to, there's some formalization where you have to operate the business with a, in a board of director governance sort of fashion.

And so yeah, that is part of what you have to do is formalize the corporate governance, which you need to do in order to affect all of these things. But the point is, how do secular private equity groups solve succession when they buy a company? They look and see, is their successor in the business? Generally not. And then they go do a executive search plan. So we collectively can all do that, the very same thing. That's not rocket science to solve for.

Jim: If you're listening to the show today and you know of a business owner who's thinking about selling and they're thinking about private equity, or they're just thinking about selling, you don't know what they're thinking.

Martha: They don't know what they're thinking.

Jim: Brandt, we wanna be able to get in front of the bus because private equity people, I know it's not categorically, but often we'll tell the business owner whatever they need to hear so they can get the deal done. And they'll promise to perpetuate the culture, whatever they gotta do.

And I'm not sending a judgment out here because I know that there's always exceptions to the rule. How do we stop somebody? If somebody's already thinking about selling and they've already talked to a private equity person, maybe they've already even signed a letter of intent, can we get in front of this bus if it's already rolling downhill?

Brandt Brereton: Yeah, if they haven't sold, signed a letter of intent yet, then the answer is clearly yes. If they have signed a letter of intent, the answer is maybe. Generally speaking, the ESOP, which is an internal retirement plan, it's an internal captive buyer of the business, that's not a third party change of control buyer for the business, which is usually how those letters of intent are written.

So what I have seen is almost always the company, even if they're under LOI can be exploring this alternative and not be breaching the terms of the letter of intent. So they just need, they need an hour and a side by side, which is always what we do. Here's the deal that you have in your hand or here's what you're gonna have in your hand, 'cause I've sold thousands of companies to know what's gonna happen, and here's what the alternative would look like with the ESOP. And quantitatively, here are the differences. Here's the amount of after tax cash at close differences, and then qualitatively, here are the differences in terms of your ability to continue to perpetuate culture.

Jim: And if I remember your book correctly, I mean there's a significant tax advantage to an ESOP as opposed to just a private equity sale, correct? You gotta be short on this because we're running outta time.

Brandt Brereton: Yes.

Martha: I feel like this is one of those shows where you have to say, nothing is intended to be as legal advice, but we need to have you consult with Perpetuate Capital.com to find out more information. 'cause we certainly don't want anybody go, I heard on that podcast I could do this. 'Cause we don't know your situations, but there's hope and that's what we want people to hear.

Jim: We have to look at this, this is a stewardship thing. I know, Brandt, you just, I know we could talk about this for seven hours. This is a stewardship thing. The parable of the talents. This is all about the parable of talents. You've been given a business by God. You've been given talents to run that business by God. He has allowed your business to grow, to multiply, to be worth a significant amount of money, so much potential in that business that private equity people are drooling over the chance to get it so they can multiply their money 3, 4, 5 times over a period of five years.

That's the kind of potential you've got. So as a steward, you've gotta ask the question, not in the American dream sense of the way. What does the Bible tell me to do with this? The Lord is saying money is, listen, I'm gonna pave the roads in heaven with gold. The stuff that you think is so important, let's talk about what's really important and that's the souls of the people that have been working for you all of this time and the future people that are gonna work for you.

Yeah, that's why an ESOP is so important. But the question people are asking, especially if there's people thinking about this Brandt, is where's the money coming from? Because the employees, if they had the money, they'd offer the owner the money to buy the business out so that he wouldn't sell out the private equity. 'Cause if any employee knows anything, they know that's a bad deal. Private equity, somebody's gonna lose their job. So where's the money coming from if an ESOP is formed? Where does the ESOP get the money to pay off the owner?

Brandt Brereton: Yeah, the bank lends money to the ESOP and our fund lends money to the ESOP. And so where does the money in our fund come from? It comes from, first of all, our families, where we've invested big percentages of our net worth into the fund. C12 members, Convene members, guys who have sold their business and have a pile of cash and want to pay it forward with others. And individual investors that are looking for income and an inflation hedge through upside. It's basically private equity investors that have been enlightened with this knowledge in this expertise to contort that private equity investment to be a loan to the ESOP.

So the ESOP can do the work. We don't have to have control of things and own things and affect change. What we have to do is provide capital, same return profile, provide capital to excellent run companies that are doing a great job, that don't need to be fixed. We just need to solve for liquidity and control retention, and this is the most elegant solution and structure to do it with.

Jim: That was a lot, you just said a lot, but basically, you're saying in Bob's sale example of a million dollars, the banks are gonna come in, they're not gonna loan more than 80% on that. They're gonna want you to have a 20% equity stake. Are you guys that other 20% equity stake to help get this ESOP started?

Brandt Brereton: In Bob's deal, a hundred percent sale price, he's gonna get 80, he's gonna get 75 to 80% cash at close, and the rest is gonna be contingent.

Jim: Okay.

Brandt Brereton: In our scenario, they're gonna get the same 75 to 80% cash at close, and it's gonna come from a bank, just like the private equity guys do. And it's gonna come from our fund, just like the private equity guys do.

And he's gonna carry back a small seller note, which effectively is equity in the structure 'cause he needs to keep skinning the game on this thing to make sure that everything transitions correctly to the next generation over the next five, five or six years. But because Perpetuates investment fund is filling the hole that has existed and was being taken advantage of by private equity groups, now that we exist and we can plug that hole, equalize cash flowing to the seller at close, but do it in this structure that preserves the integrity of their control and eliminates all taxation on the earnings engine that is the business. It's just a better way to go.

Martha: I think the key of what I'm hearing in all of this for the listener is that you've got some people behind you for your fund, Perpetuate Capital fund, that wants this business to perpetuate the kingdom culture that has been created through God's design in whatever industry you're in, whatever amount of employees you have. And so they're gonna, it's a support system in a sense of saying, we want this part to succeed.

We want all of it to succeed. We want the business to continue, but with this amazing kingdom culture. And so I think that's the bottom line of what we want our listeners to hear is that there is other alternatives out there that may not be getting attention where it's needed. And we're so excited that you've put, and I will tell the listeners this is not a 500 page manual - thank goodness 'cause it can be very overwhelming, daunting - this is a book that you can pick up, Perpetuate: Selling Your Business Without Selling Out, that in a day, you could have a better understanding of what God has possible for your business, and then to take the next steps and to reach out on your website, Perpetuate Capital.com, and really pray about how God wants you to take your business into the next generation in a way that will keep it... perpetuating.

Jim: Honoring God and loving people. Brandt Brereton, I know we can talk about this forever and I'm probably just as passionate about this as you are, just don't have the capital. But I'm grateful that you brought this to our attention. I'm grateful that you wrote the book. I'm grateful that Perpetuate Capital is helping solve some of the unnecessary nonsense that's been going on in Christian Kingdom companies over the last several decades. Brandt Brereton, thanks for being on iWork4Him today.

Brandt Brereton: Yes. Thank you. Bless you guys.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

7/9/25 - 2102: Hearing God from 9 to 5

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. And our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize that their workplace is their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Jesus said, my sheep know my voice. Imagine a world where every follower of Jesus understood that they could talk with God, ask questions, get answers about the little things and big things. Andy and Janine Mason nailed the simplicity of hearing from God in their latest book, Listen Up! Hearing God at Work. This book is a battle changer in this country and around the world, enabling Jesus followers to once again walk and talk and fellowship with our father, just as Adam and Eve once did in the garden. So good and so relevant. I just reread it again for the second time. It's so practical.

Andy and Janine have been living this out in their lives and they're here to talk with us today about hearing from God and the latest in their biznistry that they call Heaven in Business. Andy and Janine, welcome to iWork4Him.

Andy Mason: Thank you, Jim.

Jim: What I love about your story is that you guys not only wrote the book, but you've been living it out the last several years. And so before I get to the questions, what I really wanna ask is - God moved you from New Zealand to Redding, California, to just outside Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, to Nashville, Tennessee. That's the biggest zigzag across the planet. Did you hear God through all of those moves?

Janine Mason: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, it looks like we are just wandering and been floating along, but actually, yeah, each move we very clearly heard from the Lord, and so we moved in response to hearing his voice. That's the only way we know to live, is to respond to hearing the voice of the Lord.

Andy Mason: And I was just thinking, yeah, it seems crazy. It is crazy. It is crazy following the voice of God. But then Jesus was what? Nazareth, Egypt, back, like he was all over the place too. So I guess, yeah that's who we're following.

Martha: Yes. Oh, for sure. And I really think that our listeners are gonna hear and understand more of that by the end of this podcast of what that really looks like to listen and to hear. One of the things that. We appreciate about you guys is you do this together, much like we do, and we know that ministry leaders often put their marriage at risk for the sake of the mission. How have you guys made sure that your marriage has stayed healthy while you work together in a very specific focus?

Andy Mason: Yeah, I think the first thing, context - so just so listeners know, we've been married for 26 years. I married my best friend and she's still my best friend. We've got four kids and they are now 18, 21, 22, 24. First one's actually getting married in September, so that's pretty cool. So just a little bit of context.

So how have we done this together? There's different seasons of that. There's the season when the kids were really little and Janine was primarily a full on mom, teacher, guide, and everything. And then when they grow, it's like she's still full on mom, taxi, driver, cook, chef, everything in between.

And we would do that and do that in relationship. And we're in a new season now with all four kids out of the home. So just that's the context. And then how do we do, how have we done this together and not destroyed each other in the process?

Janine Mason: I can remember sitting on your parents' backs doorstep, actually, when we were engaged and saying, just so you know, I'm gonna fight for our family. We weren't even married, but I had seen people destroy their families and their marriage through ministry. And I said, just so you know, Andy Mason, when we are married, I'll be fighting for us to stay connected. I'll be fighting for our kids not to be casualties of ministry.

And so I think all the way along, we have fought to set boundaries that meant our marriage stayed healthy. That looked like when Andy was traveling and I was home with the kids managing how much he was traveling, even though we could have made more money if he'd traveled more. It was like, no, actually we need to keep our marriage and our family at the heart of what we are doing because that's honoring the Lord.

And then I think we just prioritize having fun. I will be the one that says, if Andy starts talking business in the bedroom, I'll be like excuse me, but this is my bedroom and I won't be talking business here that belongs at a different conversation. We can go and we can sit at the table a weekend, but after a certain time of night or a certain time in the morning, I'm like, no, that doesn't actually, we have to separate that out. Otherwise we'll always be talking business and then we end up not having as much fun. But we prioritize fun. We play a lot of board games. I like beating him. (laughter)

Jim: So Janine, though, we've talked with a lot of couples on mission who have gone to other places and where the culture is so radically challenging to every part of life, and yet the role of a mother hasn't changed. The role of a wife hasn't changed. Yet the culture makes it so much different. You guys moved from New Zealand where you knew, that was comfortable. It was peaceful. It's middle earth. Everybody knows what New Zealand looks like if they watch Lord of the Rings, it's just gorgeous. And you moved to Redding, California, which I don't know how radical that culture change was, but equally a beautiful area of the world.

But California, I mean it, it doesn't get more radically different than California. How did you guys manage that cultural shift and the pressure from that cultural shift to make sure it didn't impact your marriage? 'cause your kids were struggling with it. How old were, because your kids? They were in elementary and junior high school when you moved?

Janine Mason: Yeah, two through eight when we moved here. They were just itty bitty when we moved to California.

Jim: So it wasn't as hard them as it was on you.

Janine Mason: It was intense. I can remember just everything is different, like even the little things that you don't think about. I can remember going to the supermarket and our kids, it's 110 degrees and he is driving around the parking lot with the four little kids and I'm trying to find something for dinner and all I want was, okay, I've got salad and greens.

I just want a piece of meat to cook. And I'm looking at the meat department and everything is called something different than it is at New Zealand. And I just didn't know. And I remember getting back in the van crying this is so hard. And so everything was different. Everything was different, even though we speak the same language.

But I think again, it was the commitment to one another, the commitment to, we know that the Lord has brought us here, therefore there's a way through even when it's difficult and just being gracious to one another. And I can remember saying to somebody, this is a beautiful thing because in New Zealand I didn't really need God for my everyday life but when you move and everything is so incredibly difficult, it forces you into this position of I will need, I have to spend time with the Lord every day, connecting with his presence, hearing his voice. Or I will curl up in the closet and just want to cry all day.

Martha: Sure.

Janine Mason: It's that difficult. And although that's challenging, and I think people do lose their marriage in those places because they lean out rather than leaning in, and so I think we leaned in both to the Lord and to one another. Like it's better to cry in one another's arms and say, this is so hard than to get angry and walk away from each other. So I think it, it has made us lean in, yeah.

Martha: So I know that hindsight is 2020 and looking back it might be easier to say, I can see why God moved us. I can see. But in the moment, did you know why God had moved you and what he had planned for you?

Andy Mason: No, not at all. There was some profound - come back a step. It was so clear that God spoke. We had scripture that you just can't, when it's black and white, you just can't argue. Three different scriptures across the Bible and be like, oh, it's so obvious. Like even someone that doesn't know God would read that and it's wow, God's telling you to do something.

So we knew we had a mandate to be there, but we didn't know why or what. And what did that look like? I even had a dream. And in a dream I saw a picture of something that looked like an old sawmill broken down. So when we get to reading, we find out that there's a - and I've got economic development background, business. The industry had a forestry paper mill industry that was broken down.

So i'm just, are we here to do something with the paper milling industry? I know nothing about... it was like, even though, what are we doing here? That's what I'm saying. And we didn't know what, and I think that's what, this is this journey with God. He wants to do it with you. That's the most important thing. Like I work with you.

Janine Mason: I think we were in that place for the first year for sure. Where we are, just like, we're here. We don't know. Yeah, we knew we were supposed to stay, but we didn't know why. But then you had a meeting with Danny Silk and that opened up possibilities that we hadn't seen before. And I think at that point we went oh my gosh. And I think the other piece that happened in that first year was one of our kids in particular was having a hard time adjusting, our little 6-year-old at the time.

And we were praying and I felt like the Lord said, you think this is all about you, but this is as much about your kids as it is about you. And they're not here being dragged along just for the journey because of the calling on your life, but this is the calling on their life. And so I think right from the start, that was in the first weeks of us being there and I think it helped me realize we can think it's all about the adults, but actually they got steeped in a culture of kingdom that has set them up for success.

And I think it's as much about them as it was about us, that they got birthed into a culture that shaped them very strongly.

Martha: That is so huge. And I hope our listeners are really listening to that. Listen up! Because the fact that so many times we make decisions about our vocation or our next steps and to just say the kids will be fine, we'll be family wherever we are.

But realizing that it's more than that. It's who you're exposing them to, the culture that you're exposing them to, and how you help them to navigate that. And like you just said, the kingdom culture that they were immersed in there in Redding. So we've done a show before talking about Heaven in Business. We'll put a link to that in the show notes for listeners to go back to. But why don't you just quickly tell us what God really birthed out of your experience of the move to California.

Andy Mason: Yeah, so we knew that we were sent to Redding. We knew that we were sent to sit under this guy, Bill Johnson. We've heard of him before. So we knew a couple of things. If people are not aware, there's a book When Heaven Invades Earth, we just think the Lord's Prayer: on Earth as it is in heaven, as in God wants to be with you in all of life. Bring everything to life, causing human flourishing, planet flourishing, all things brought to life.

So that was the concept, but we didn't know what that even looked like in practical. At the time, the expression looked like run after sick people and pray for the healing. And so you could just imagine a bunch of zealous students running around after sick people, which is not necessarily healthy for the business community because that scares off patrons. So what we didn't know is that the reputation of the church in the city was only animosity. So again, nobody, we didn't know that. I didn't know. We're new to the area. We don't fully speak the language. It's Northern California.

And so what that looked like for us twofold was one, just this what have I got? I mean I can pray for sick people, but what about the economic engine of the city? These just these questions on the inside of you. What about the business community? What are we doing? And so we just started to ask questions and they didn't have answers.

They said, can you go and do this? So I got connected to a local business. We go in there and we just start to really encourage them. It's what you guys are doing. It's really that simple. We started to do that and then secondly, started to meet with some local business people and say, what does it look like to partner with God at work, practically? How do you know? What are the stories?

So those two things, and so we didn't even know we were starting what we now call Heaven in Business. We were just literally meeting with people saying, how can we help? There's gotta be a need and it's gotta be, there's gotta be an expression of the kingdom way more than a meeting and way more than a prayer. So what does it look like?

And secondly, that meeting with Danny Silk, he's the family life pastor. I'm not, like I love family and I have a priority of family and the word of God around don't put your family on the altar of whatever, so that's really important. But I'm thinking, why on earth would I meet with Danny Silk? 'Cause he's the social worker, counseling, maybe I need to learn counseling?

Janine Mason: Yeah, and you asked me that and I was like no, not true. This is not what God is saying. (laughter)

Andy Mason: And so we meet with Danny, not sure why, and he says what's your background? And he was just as perplexed about meeting, as well. So we meet, what's your background? I said helping people discover purpose and resource them to live it well, whether that's a bank manager, a business consultant, a worship leader, church leader, in missions, whatever it is, it's the same kind of thing. What's your dream? How can we help you live that?

And he goes, really? Have you read the book, Dream Manager by Matthew Kelly? We've been praying about somebody that would come in and do this for our staff, 500 staff, Jim, with zero leadership development. So that just tells you what was going on. It's a miracle environment. And so he said you'd be an answer to prayer. When can you start? Can you do what you were doing with your clients back in New Zealand, but do that with our staff?

And so those two things, which became the book Dream Culture, Bringing Dreams to Life and God with You at Work, has grown into what we do today. But we were not geniuses. We were just simply following the voice of God and then seeing why is no one doing this, right? Someone should be doing this, especially in a church. You should be doing this.

Jim: Imagine that at a church. No culture of leadership. No mentor, no discipleship, mentoring of leaders in a church. (sighs) Step down off the soapbox. All right, all right, so we're gonna get back to this conversation 'cause I really wanna talk more about Heaven in Business, but before we do, I just wanna - Martha and I have been blessed by being aligned with so many amazing people and organizations throughout our work of iWork4Him over the last 12 plus years.

One such organization is the US Christian Chamber of Commerce. Martha and I believe so much in the work of the US Christian Chamber of Commerce that we sit on its board of directors, and the US Christian Chamber of Commerce believes business isn't just business. This is kingdom calling and its founder, it's her sport. Krystal Parker, it's her sport.

The US Christian Chamber is uniting Christian business leaders across the country to teach to lead with excellence, to lead with integrity, and advance God's kingdom in the marketplace. Are you in? I bet you will be. US christian chamber.com. Check out their spiritual world expo. That's gonna happen in 2026, in April of 2026. And when you get out there, if you decide to attend, make sure you put in the code, iWork4Him, and you'll get a special discount.

Martha: Yes, and I'll put all that in the show notes for everybody. You do not have to remember all of that, but we will be participating greatly in SWC 2026 and would love for you to join us.

Jim: All right, your latest book, Andy and Janine, is Listen Up! Hearing God at Work. I know it's really tough on YouTube. We got the picture out there, but of course you can find on that, on Amazon. And yeah, there you go. But I think what's so great about this book is I just finished rereading it for this, reading it for the second time, is that this is something that a lot of believers really struggle with is how to hear the voice of God and how to walk in obedience to what you hear. Not only to hear, but then to listen and then be obedient.

That's something God's been working on me for, I don't know. 30 years. Why is it so important? Why did you guys write this book? Why is it so important that every believer understand this?

Janine Mason: I think it's if you can't hear the voice of God, if you don't know that you hear the voice of God, how do you respond to him?

So if we say we have a relationship with the Lord, then it has to be communication. And when we say hear, I just wanna say, hearing implies that it's only with my ears on the, internal ears. And there's so many different ways that we do hear from the Lord. So one of those ways that I like to tell people when they say, oh, I don't hear from God, I say, have you ever just felt like, man, I should just text my friend today? And you text them and you say, Hey, how you going? I love you. Just wanted to encourage you today and your friend texts back. Thank you so much. I just needed to hear that sweet message today.

Nearly everybody's had that experience where I just happened to think of my friend on that day and just happened to text them and then to find out that was the day, that was the moment that was so meaningful. In fact, that happened to me and my friend was feeling really down and three people from different parts of the country all text within about 15 minutes of each other. That's the voice of the Lord.

Jim: Amen.

Janine Mason: That's the voice of the Lord. So it's not always this big oh, I heard the voice of the Lord echoing from heaven. A lot of times it's just this sweet knowing or it's just this sweet prompting, although, or sometimes you'll just be meditating on the Lord and you'll get a picture in your mind.

So there's so many different ways when we realize that we can hear. It changes everything because now I can respond. It's very difficult for me to respond to Andy in relationship, grow and intimacy, or grow in just instruction, if I can't hear him. I need some way of actually communicating.

Andy Mason: Yeah, and I always say that the people say, why do we do what we do? 'Cause work is the primary place you forge your friendship with God. And how can you forge a friendship with anybody if you can't hear their voice? And this is not in the book, but just this is a, in the last couple of weeks I've just been meditating on, it's actually in Deuteronomy and it's the phrase, it's a shemar, is the word, A "hear, oh, Israel, The Lord, the Lord your God, he is one." And then " love the Lord your God with all your..." Jesus referred to that, right? That word here, Shemar, is the same word: hear, listen, and obey.

Janine Mason: Wow.

Andy Mason: There's no difference. So in the Hebrew, there is no difference between hearing and obeying. So James says, show me your faith. It's the same. If you're not acting on what you've heard, you haven't heard.

Martha: That's such a interesting thing 'cause I think of, as a mom, when I say, did you hear me? That meant I am expecting you to obey it. 'Cause I'm like, if you heard me, certainly you're going to follow through on whatever it was I just instructed you to do.

But in most of life we don't look at it that way. I know we sat under a pastor for years who said he who has ears let him hear, when he would be preaching the word. It was like you really need to have the ears of hearing, not just listen, like being there. And it always caused us to pay attention because if I have the ears that will hear what God is truly saying to me to today.

So in your book, you really say it's a process, right? Is that biblical to have a process for hearing from God?

Andy Mason: Janine hates the word process. (laughter)

Martha: Okay. Okay. So tell me.

Andy Mason: It's a relationship.

Janine Mason: No, but because I think, I think as humans we are wired to want process. If I do A plus D, then I will get this result. And although there are keys in there to hearing the voice of the Lord, it's not always A plus B plus C because sometimes God crashes in when I'm doing the dishes and gives me a thought that changes everything. And sometimes I have to pause and intentionally lean in to remember that the presence of God is with me.

And yes, there are keys to hearing, absolutely. But I just think we want the, we want in Christian life, like somebody tell me A plus B plus C, so I can be successful. And it's not like that. Just as my relationship with Andy is totally different than your guys' relationship, there are keys that we would have in common if we sat and talked about that, but there's not a definite " you have to do it this way" because we're all different.

And he relates to us all differently. So that's where Andy says, you hate the word process. No, I hate the fact that people try and put things in a box. And it restricts people and then people go if I have to do it that way, I can't relate to that. I hear the Lord best when I'm walking, honestly. And other people hear the voice of the Lord best when they're sitting in a crowded coffee shop and there's all sorts of things happening.

Jim: Yeah. I hear the Lord best when I'm reading, like just reading anything, I hear God's voice.

Okay. But when I said, put into question process, what you guys do is lay out, here's how it has worked for us, and here are many common things. First of all, it requires being quiet at times, just learning to abide with God. It's surrounding yourself with trusted advisors to be able to say, did I hear this from God? This is what I heard. Let me bounce this back. Does it, is it in line with scripture? Of course you need to know scripture to make sure it aligns with scripture.

That's the process, really, it's just a shaping of our heart. I recommend that everybody listening, if you're a believer, you need to learn to listen to the voice of God in work and outside of work. Get this book, read it. It's just a beautiful process. Or excuse me, a beautiful, I didn't mean to say that word. (chucking)It's a beautiful book on... it keeps the simplicity. It's just, it says the simplicity of it all. But Andy, you just said something that perked my ears and I'm, we're gonna end, we're gonna land on this. You said work is your primary place you forge your friendship with God.

Martha: Yeah, I wrote that down too. I was like, what? Wait a second.

Jim: Wait a second. Missed that sermon. Yeah, I missed that one. Tell me where are you coming up with that?

Andy Mason: Yeah, okay. You two are married. You've been married for 39 years. Woo. Okay. When did your marriage grow?

Martha: Yes. All along.

Jim: We started learning to be, we've been be best friends since we were 16, a long time.

Andy Mason: Yeah. So the day that you got married was not when your marriage got forged. What I propose to you is actually your marriage really gets forged in the, when you disagree when it's difficult, when suddenly kids show up and you don't sleep. It's in the day-to-day ups and downs, when there's any kind of pressure, either pressure from victory or pressure from difficulty. And so I can sit at church on Sunday morning and stand and worship and have a wonderful time and hear and listen and be encouraged and have someone pray for me and all of that, and it's wonderful.

But the reality of my walk with Jesus happens on Monday when I've got bills to pay, when I've gotta develop a new strategy and I dunno how. That's when I get to choose to lean in with a tender heart and listen. And that's why in the start of that book, it's got that song, There is no one like our God that would stoop down and hear our hearts cry.

That's ridiculous. But yeah, so when I say work is the primary place you forge your friendship with God is because one, you spend so much time there, that's really practical. But two, because work is not easy, it's not comfortable. There's challenge, there's difficulty, there's adversity, there's confusion, and that's perfect. Then I get to lean in and God's let me know "when you wanna have a conversation about that." "Nope, I do it myself." " I've been doing this for a few thousand years. I could probably help you with that if you want, if you're willing to listen." And that's this, this mind blowing that God would want that, would stoop down and hear our hearts cry.

That's profound, which brings back to, what is success? It's not accomplishing something. I think one of your questions was, why leave? Was it 'cause God wanted things to accomplish? I think it's possibly more about our kids and more about a relationship with God. Yes, it's in the context of going after things and putting a dent in the universe. But if it was really about accomplishing something, God would probably do that without you because you make it so difficult. Or I do, anyway. (laughter)

Jim: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Martha: And I think just so many of our listeners can relate to that and realize all of this conversation about relationship with our Heavenly Father and being able to relate it to marriage is just one way where we can look at it and say, you know what? Every marriage is different. Every relationship is different, and yet there are elements. We have to listen to each other if we really want to know each other. And I think that there's just so many key takeaways from that.

But I will tell you that God has wired me to like processes. And so I, even though I understand that there are key elements to all of that, I understand that there are certain processes that I like to go in my through in my life to help me with doing things properly. And one of those is choosing the right businesses to work with. And Jim and I have been vetting companies for the past 12 years on iWork4Him to make sure that they're truly living up to their written values and that they align with Scripture, and Patriot mobile is a sure fit in that area online at patriotmobile.com/iWork4Him. You will find their values written out, their offerings to be clear, their customer service to be excellent and US-based. Without compromising your coverage, you can have your cell phone service on your choice of the three major carrier towers.

But support values you believe in. So go to the link today and learn more. The process is quick and easy and gives back to this ministry that you love so much.

Jim: All right, we're out of time, but I wanna make sure you guys get the last word. We're gonna make sure people check out Heaven in Business.com. We're gonna make sure that people know all about your book in all of the show notes. But the two of you speak wisdom into people all the time. Do you have words of encouragement for our listeners today who are workplace believers trying to figure out what does God, why does God have them right where they are today?

Janine Mason: You can go first.

Andy Mason: So this is, we do a blog, podcast as well. This is gonna be this week, pretty much. Actually this week and last week just, people that hear God and say, I wanna honor God in what I'm doing, and hear God say, you're precious. You're chosen, I've called you by name. You're gonna be my witness to the ends of the earth, disciple nations.

That's like clouds and woo. And that's the graduation moment. I'm in, yeah, let's go. And then work happens and there's delay and confusion and difficulty, and you think, did you hear God? So if you're listening to that right now, just know that. This is Isaiah 43. It's actually, you're perfectly where you are supposed to be.

And it says that you're chosen, you're adopted, you're precious, you're loved, you're called by name. You're gonna be his witness. That's your purpose, disciple nations. He'll move things around. He'll create rivers in the wilderness. All of these things we are thinking, yeah, yeah. And we forget.

And when you walk through rivers and deep waters and fire and flame, as in you are going to, it's gonna be, but you're not gonna get burned. You're not gonna drown. And you're gonna get through this 'cause he's with you in the middle of it. And so that's what I would say is if you're questioning and doubting God, am I missing something? Probably not.

He will actually, if you are even asking that question, it tells me that your heart is leaning in to listen. So he will tell you if you need to get out of it, but just know because you've got adversity, difficulty, challenge, you're trying to work stuff out. It's actually not that you're wrong or that you're dead. It's actually probably because God's incubating something in and through you, and he does it through pressure and challenge and adversity to prove himself, which is Proverbs 30:5, every word of the Lord is tested, refined, and proven to be pure. So he is actually not proving you, he's proving himself in you. So relax and go and have some candy in the process.

Jim: What was the verse in Proverbs? 'cause all I heard was Proverbs 35 and I'm like, that must be an extra chapter I didn't have it in my Bible.

Andy Mason: Yeah. Proverbs 30 verse five.

Jim: Yeah, there you go. 30 verse five. Got it. Okay. The New Zealand with the Nashville accent. Janine, final word from you.

Janine Mason: Yeah, I think my, one of my life scriptures has been first Peter 1:3, I believe it is, where it says, he has given us everything pertaining to life and godliness. And I think I'm echoing what Andy's saying.

When you think it's tough, when you think, oh man, what am I doing here? Remembering that he has already given you everything you need to lead a godly life in your workplace, in the middle of kids, in the middle of crazy moving, in the middle of all the stuff that we've walked through, we've found that to be true, that he has already given us what we need to display his goodness, to display who he is everywhere we go.

The other thing I would add just to what Andy's saying is you can't find God as comforter unless you need comfort. You can't find God as provider unless you actually need provision. And so we wanna find God as those things, but we don't wanna be in the place of lack and needing, and we don't wanna need comfort. We don't wanna be in the place of pain. We don't wanna be in the place of lack. But actually you find the beauty of who he is when you're in that place of needing that.

And so I would say listeners, hey he's there and he's wanting to be comfort. He's wanting to be provision. He's wanting to be all that he is. He's wanting to show himself faithful. And sometimes that takes being in the place of, it's crazy, I don't know what to do. And when you turn and when you listen, you'll find what you need from his voice, the things that you need from his voice.

Jim: Good words. Amen. Andy and Janine Mason, thanks so much for being an iWork4Him today, for sharing pieces of your lives, your book, Listen Up! Hearing God at Work, and also Heaven in Business online at heaveninbusiness.com.

We appreciate you guys. We look forward to seeing you face to face again one day. But thanks for being with us today.

Andy Mason: Thank you, Jim. Thanks, Martha.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

7/2/25 - 2101: God Helps Us Do Hard Things

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: When you grow up in a family business, there's an expectation that you'll follow in the family business footsteps. In the insurance world, that expectation is very high. In the insurance world in small town agencies, it is almost certain.

So how do you live with those kinds of expectations that still follow the Lord's leading? How do you prepare to transition a lead from the third generation when your health falls apart suddenly and you're a wife and you're a mom, and you're a daughter? So many of us think that life is predictable, but when following Jesus, he uses adversity in our lives to take us from who we are to who he can use more effectively.

Lauren Layman has her story to tell and it's full of adversity and huge victories. Lauren Layman, welcome to iWork4Him.

You're here, right?

Lauren Layman: I am. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Thank you. (laughing)

Jim: We don't often get to have in studio guests. So today we're privileged to actually cover a story right here from Marionville, Missouri, where God has moved us -wow - three and a half years ago. We're so grateful to be able to have somebody from our new hometown, which we love, in the studio with us. So Lauren, we always start out with, the first time guest, with this question: how did you come to be a follower of Jesus and when did you cement it as part of your life as an adult?

Lauren Layman: It's funny that you asked this question because honestly, it's probably a question that I have struggled with for 42 years. I grew up in church. And mom was the director of Bible school. She also still is, took a break and now is back.

Jim: And she wore a chicken outfit in church just a week ago to promote Bible school.

Lauren Layman: Hey. And the apple does not fall far from that tree, let's be honest. So yeah, I grew up in church. Church was always a part of my life. And I remember going and I talked with pastor Max whenever I was young, probably, I'm gonna say late, middle, or late elementary school. I cannot tell you the exact day that I asked Jesus into my heart. I remember, like I went into his office. And it helped me - first I remember talking with my mom and dad and they said, Hey, let's go talk to Pastor Max. And so I went and talked with him.

And I just remember thinking, okay, this is big. But then I was scared 'cause it was probably, mom and dad could probably tell you more. It was probably at least a year before, traditional Baptist church, you walk the aisle and it's like you're walking the plank is what it felt like. So I didn't like publicly make my faith known for probably over a year. And then went through the whole baptism thing, grew up in youth group, grew up then continued on.

I didn't have that major rebellious streak. I know that probably some kids did, but I always struggled because I never felt like I had that line in the sand of this is who I was before and this is who I was after. So many have, so many people have that story.

Jim: You should be grateful to God that you don't have that. That's fantastic.

Lauren Layman: But I really struggled with it. It was, like, I remember I read that left behind series and there was times in the middle of the night, I was always an anxious kid, I woke up in middle of the night, literally walked in my parents' room to make sure they were still there. Because I was afraid that whatever I had done hadn't been enough.

And I think that's probably the story of so many christians really. Okay, is this, was this really enough? Like just because it doesn't seem possible that all you have to do is pray a prayer and then.... and obviously your life's not perfect. We'll get into that later. It's not always easy.

Jim: Actually, it's almost certainly going to be much better because you follow Jesus.

Lauren Layman: Absolutely. Absolutely. Which is how we will get into things. But was involved in student ministry in college. Church was always, that was one of the things we checked off our list when Nick and I got married was, okay, we're gonna find a church home and yep, check it off, find a church home.

And we found a great community there. We're still there. We're still attending that same church on the north side of Springfield. Another Baptist church, maybe a little bit less traditional in nature. But again, we were just like, it was what we did because it's what you do.

And so as I look back, yeah, I had those mountaintop moments at youth group or youth camp or even during college ministry, but. I don't truly know if I would be able to sit here and say that I felt that my relationship with the Lord was strong until 18 months ago. Maybe 15 months ago. It was always there and I was like, okay, like I should say this "Sunday school thing," and I've always, I felt like I was doing the right thing and but God has never been more present than he was 12 to 15 months ago, 'cause I didn't have any other choice.

Martha: And we're gonna get into that, and I'm so grateful that you have recognized that and see God's hand in your life. Like Jim said at the beginning of the show, adversity often takes us from who we are to who God can use more effectively. We don't like that. That's not necessarily the prescription we would write for ourselves, but it is because if we do end up leaning on him rather than the world or other people, the results are very different.

So let's talk a little bit about your career path and then we're gonna get into what God has done in the last couple years of your life. Did you always have the expectation on you and, or did you just assume, or did you want to always be in insurance? What did that path look like for you?

Lauren Layman: So I would say it's probably a little bit of both.

Jim: Yeah, because your brother Nick said I'm out! I'm gonna be an attorney.

Lauren Layman: I was the oldest. I was not as involved in things during the summer. And again, I'm terrible with dates, but early high school I started cleaning the office, first. Yes. Scrubbing toilets, I cleaned my dad's office. That's what we do, right? So I cleaned our office and then started working in the summertime, two or three days a week, doing the grunt work kind of thing.

That was back when we had so much paper and so many things were, yeah, so many things were manual. We had to manually call in changes to insurance carriers or manually calling claims. And so I'd have a stack, maintained a mailing list on a, I don't even think it was an Excel spreadsheet.

I don't know. It was literally like a mailing list, like that's all it was. And so it was a nightmare to keep updated. Anyways, started doing that kind of thing. I think, I don't know if I fell into the insurance industry. Looking back, I mean my parents know this, so this isn't a surprise to them. I have had like midlife crises several times, like in my life. (laughter)

Jim: And you hadn't even gotten a midlife yet.

Lauren Layman: Right. My mom would tell you about every seven years I have this like identity crisis and is this what I'm supposed to be doing? And did I take the easy route because, honestly, that is a little bit what I did. Just because... I never interviewed for a single job my entire life. I went, I got my MBA from Missouri State.

But so I didn't like, I call it the easy route, but in reality, like it was the easy route at the time, but in the reality it was probably the hardest route. Just 'cause working for family is hard. Like it impacts your relationships. It's always, it's either the elephant in the room that's really sad and really grumpy and might wanna trample you, or it's the elephant in the room that's oh, like this is great, but it could turn at any moment. And that's just the nature of business in general. And then when you add family into it, it's a whole different conversation.

And I will say that I probably felt some expectation. It was a third generation. I love my grandparents. They started it, it was a successful business. I felt some obligation to carry on that legacy. But I realized pretty quickly that I didn't want to do the parts of the business that needed to be done to make it successful.

Martha: Meaning the selling? But your focus is...

Jim: She's so much a salesperson.

Martha: But she's not like me. I got licensed with our insurance agency, but I wasn't out selling insurance. I took care of the customers. I love that.

Jim: She also was a very good salesperson.

Martha: But the same thing. I know what you're saying. I can relate to you. So what part of the business is your focus?

Lauren Layman: I pretty much told my dad that if he wanted me to stay working there, that I didn't wanna do the selling part. That was a privilege. I realize in a lot of businesses you can't just go into your boss and be like, okay, I am not doing this anymore.

Jim: But you're daddy's little girl, so you can say whatever you want. (laughter)

Lauren Layman: And obviously it was important to him to continue the family legacy, dynasty, whatever, Jim, if Jim throws out that word later. And so it was important to him and so we kinda just had to find a way to make that work. And the work that I focus on now is important and it wasn't anything that anybody had time to focus on before.

So I handle all of the internal marketing, the external marketing, the community support. A little bit of business development, but really just maintaining those relationships, maintaining the relationships with our company representatives. I am building those relationships with the territory reps and the other, the other people that stop by our office. But just handling a lot of that brand awareness, building that face for our office.

Martha: And getting to use your creativity in amazing ways, which is really neat. And we will put a link to Smart Insurance in the show notes for people so they can go check it out. Because I know you do a great job, but you know what it made me think of is the fact that a lot of people, like you say, it's all stuff we wanna do. But in a family business especially, you can feel torn between making the sales and making things look pretty. And making things appeal to people and you've gotten that privilege to be able to do that in a way that really has, I believe, accelerated the brand of your family in amazing ways.

Lauren Layman: And when I went to working part-time, when I had our first little girl, it happened, that transition happened fairly naturally 'cause the group of clients I did have, 'cause we all work as a team at Smart Insurance. Nobody has like their client that can't be helped by others. And when we did that, and I wasn't there all the time, that transition happened naturally 'cause I wasn't there to answer the questions. And so that really helped that adjustment be smooth because people stopped asking for me and I was thankful for that.

Jim: You know, as a business owner, we always need support in the community. And one great place to find support is with other like-minded Christ followers that are members of the US Christian Chamber of Commerce. At the US Christian Chamber, they connect faith-driven leaders through powerful events, relationships, and resources. Join iWork4Him and hundreds of others, probably now thousands of others joining the US Christian Chamber across the country where business and faith thrive together, and join us together next spring in 2026 at their spiritual world... it's what is it?

Martha: Spiritual world citizens. But it's SWC2026.com. And we will have a code for you to get your tickets there and join us for their, actually, I guess it's like a biannual event.

Jim: Yeah, big expo in Orlando in the spring of 2026 where Martha and I'll be part of that event, and we'd love for you to join the chamber and be part of the event. Go to uschristianchamber.com. But if you decide to go to the expo, make sure you put in the keyword, iWork4Him.

All right. Lauren, you're married to Nick. We've gotten to know Nick, he's a runner. He's actually passionate, freakishly passionate about running, which, you can get counseling for that. (laughter)

Martha: I thought you were gonna say freakishly passionate about insurance. (laughter)

Jim: He is very good at what he does. But you're married to Nick. You got two kids. Life was perfect. Cute little house in a cute little suburban city of Republic, Missouri. And then your world fell apart last year. What happened?

Lauren Layman: Gosh, what happened? It all started January, February. I just didn't feel good, mentally or physically. Part of it was probably anxiety and that's how they treated it at first was severe anxiety, which honestly didn't surprise me. I had, like I said, I'd always been an anxious person but started going to the doctor, got on some medication. Don't be afraid to get on medication. I believe that God creates doctors with wisdom and knowledge to help you. And got on some medication and it took a while for my body to adjust to that, thought I was losing my mind in some serious ways.

Just didn't have the energy, didn't have the drive, didn't know if I was gonna wake up the next morning and really feel like getting outta bed. And it wasn't that I didn't wanna get out of bed, I wanted to get outta bed. So the mental health part of it was I had the desire, I just couldn't make myself. And so had my mom and my dad and Nick gosh, Nick was the dad last year. He was the parent this time last year just 'cause I was, my health was so unpredictable.

And so there are things today that Elise or Nora , our daughters, will talk about and I'll just look at 'em and be like mom doesn't remember. I don't remember what we did in this situation last year or what we did for this last year. I know what I didn't do, which was a lot. So had to pull back from practically everything. And so we got the anxiety under control, but then the physical symptoms started.

Hair started falling out. Just again, still lack of energy. We're trying lots of things, running lots of tests, but also trying not to, we couldn't test everything at once 'cause then you don't really know what's causing the issues. And I lost about 25 pounds or so. Lost 25 pounds, was super skinny, not healthy. I wasn't able to really process calories like I needed to. And then ended up in the emergency room a few times to get fluids, and I'd never been to the emergency room before ever.

Jim: But it's such a great place to go, especially on a Friday night.

Lauren Layman: Monet emergency room is a fantastic place to go on like a Monday morning. It's pretty good. But so I went there, was seeing my doctor multiple times a week. Like literally my mom would drive me to the doctor multiple times a week. And it's hard to gauge. Actually in May of last year, my legs started swelling. Went to the doctor and I'm in my younger, lower forties.

And so at first the doctor was like, hey maybe you're just eating too much salt, like that little bit of water retention, which is very valid 'cause at that point it wasn't as bad. And I should probably back up a little bit. I'd had some off blood work, went and saw a hematologist and they said you probably have an autoimmune disease. In fact, we're pretty certain you have an autoimmune disease, but there's a lot of those, and until you have other symptoms, it's not really worth testing to figure out which one, which I guess was comforting at the time 'cause it was like nothing was that serious.

Looking back on it. I should have, we should have advocated better because my mom or Nick or somebody was with me in all these appointments, I wasn't going alone. 'Cause I wasn't able to me remember properly. I would either go down a wrong rabbit hole or I would remember a rabbit hole that wasn't there. And so anyways, it decided to go on vacation in June.

Again, I was swelling. We flew. Probably a bad idea, but we went 'cause I had planned vacation, the girls were excited. Ended up going to the emergency room on vacation in Hilton Head because I was able to do things during the day but then like my legs would swell. And I gained all of that 20 pounds back, had pitting edema in my legs and then would move up my torso and came back from vacation, was not in good health.

Started the journey of running some tests, did Bible school sitting on the front pew with my feet up because I couldn't wear normal shoes, couldn't wear normal pants. Just, I was very unhealthy. And we knew something was really wrong. And it was the Thursday of Bible school at Marionville First Baptist, where I was helping with mom and you guys. Went to see a nephrologist, and his dad was a pastor, and he said, I'm not supposed to tell you this. He said there was a lot obviously that went in with those conversations, but he said, I'm pretty sure you have lupus, which we had known, we thought that's what it was, but we couldn't get anybody to confirm it.

And he said, I think you have lupus. And I left and he called me and there were lots of different options, but he said, if you were my daughter - this is what he wasn't supposed to tell me - if you were my daughter, I'd get in the car and I'd drive to Barnes in St. Louis and I would self admit myself into the emergency room. And because of my swelling, he thought they would admit me. He said, we don't have the resources in Springfield.

And I will never be more thankful that God used him and he spoke words that he probably wasn't supposed to 'cause I then I spent a week at Barnes. And we prayed. And we prayed and I prayed because that's it. I didn't have anything else to do. Like I could not, everything was outta my control. Nothing I did otherwise made me feel better for long. It was not long term and I couldn't, it's not that I felt suicidal. That wasn't it. But I couldn't live like that. I wasn't like that. I was an active mom. I was engaged with the girls. They were active. I had friendships and community that needed me.

Jim, we laughed. I had Republic graduation this spring, and I told a few people, it's a class of 450, maybe closer to 400. It was my first term as a school board member. And I sat through that entire graduation in a full blown panic attack, popping peppermints and warheads trying to trick my brain into sitting there. And only by the grace of God did I survive that, but I had my entire village praying that I would make it through.

And so I just went to St. Louis. We prayed the whole way up there. My pastor called and he said, God, grant her a person of peace. There's a verse in the Bible that says that, Jim, you probably know what it is. I don't even know. But give her a person of peace to help walk her through this. And from the minute that we walked into Barnes Jewish Hospital in downtown St. Louis, we left to go to the ER on Thursday night and my brother called and through a random course of events, we turned around.

Martha: I remember all that because we were praying too. And it was you were going, you were not going. You're going. It was like, we were, okay, Lord, just clear the way.

Lauren Layman: Yep. And we were gonna go on that Thursday night, we turned around and we're like, no, we're not gonna go. That was probably the, there were lots of God whispers, but that was probably the first one because my brother said he had warned me 'cause he's been up there for different work things and he said, I need you to know that the Barnes Jewish emergency Room is not gonna be like the emergency room at Monet.

It's not gonna be like the emergency room in Springfield. It's gonna be rough. And I don't know why God didn't want us to go on that Thursday night, but we went on Friday, or on Saturday morning we got up. I said, probably the hardest goodbye I'd ever said to my kids. It wasn't that I thought I wasn't coming back, I just didn't know what was gonna happen, right? How long I was gonna be there, how long the girls were gonna have to be with grandparents.

And they were scared understandably, like they didn't know what was wrong with their mom, but I knew that I was going to the place where the right answers. Hopefully we'd find the right answers. People would be able to study me. They said I needed to go to a school, a study hospital, a university hospital where they had all these doctors working on me at the same time. And so went up there and there are so many God winks that I could pull up on my phone right now from that week, you just have no idea, like so many.

But the one that sticks out right now is the person that transported me from the emergency room to the waiting room, for where they were gonna let me before ... they transferred me from the emergency room to like the area before I could get a actual hospital room. Her name was Heaven. Her name was Heaven. They were all so nice and gosh, just such, that was that person of peace. And I had that from the moment I stepped in there. And gosh, that week was one of the hardest of my life.

Martha: So talk about that for a minute. So you're dealing with knowing something's terribly wrong. This is not my normal way of feeling, but we don't know what it is. How did you deal with Okay God knew. God knows what you're going through. How did you lean on him during that time?

Lauren Layman: Every minute. Every minute. Every second of every day. And I'll tell you, the spiritual warfare during that time was real. Our marriage was being attacked in ways that we'd never experienced before from outside forces.

And I don't wanna get into that, but it was - I was texting some people, I was like, we are under attack. There was part of it that thought that I was under attack because I had just gotten on school board. And I don't think that, I don't think that Satan probably really liked that a strong Christian woman was on a public school board helping to support our kids and our students and standing for them.

I had always said that my life had gone pretty easy and I was just waiting for the shoe to drop. I was a little, I think that created anxiety in me. I was really afraid it was gonna be one of my kids. But it was me and I was Job for a while because I lost, I didn't lose everything, but I felt like I was, I felt like I wasn't sure when I was gonna be back to myself.

I wasn't sure when I was gonna feel normal again. I wasn't sure when I was gonna be able to be back to the mom, but I also realized that my life didn't have to be perfect for God to show up.

Martha: Amen. So one of the things that you've said many times during this conversation already is that you did have people around you praying for you and supporting you, and that truly is a huge part of the the story that you're telling and it's your testimony that God's been writing.

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Jim: All right, so that was a year ago, your story, Lauren, you're in St. Louis. Now we're a year later. God's brought a lot of resolution and a lot of clarity.

Lauren Layman: Yep.

Jim: Finish the story.

Lauren Layman: Yeah. Got a diagnosis finally, literally praise God. That's what we were hoping for was a diagnosis. It was a long journey, but I was there for a week and came home with a official diagnosis of lupus nephritis, which is lupus with kidney involvement, which explain the swelling. Came home and had significant steroid treatment, gained like another 15 pounds.

So at one point I was up probably close to 50 over from where I bottomed out when I was so unhealthy to then once I gained all of the water weight. And then the steroid treatment, which is hard on your body. And we all want the quick fix, right?

I wanted to take this pill and everything be okay, and my doctors were amazing and they were like, this is gonna be a journey. I need you to understand this is not gonna be something that is gonna go away tomorrow. It's not gonna be a thing that's gonna go away by next week. And I said okay, this was in July.

I said, am I gonna feel better by Christmas? They were like, yes. I said, okay. I said, I can handle that. I need proper expectations. Don't tell me it's gonna be tomorrow and it's six months from now. And I just started doing the thing. I went, I was seeing a counselor to talk to somebody who, a good Christian counselor. I saw her once a week for a while. I got set up with doctors here so I didn't have to drive back and forth to St. Louis. And I just started doing the things like we just started doing every next step with God all the way. And knowing as we looked at all of those things lining up, he was in every single one of them.

There were just, there were doctors I had access to that I shouldn't have had access to. There were doctors that showed up and gave me information that through some crazy things happening and including my brother making some phone calls and just being my brother, that got us in touch with the doctors that I needed, the specialists at Barnes who were top of the line and ready to help.

And yeah, I just started doing the thing and I gradually just started to feel better and I had my energy back and, started losing the water weight and just my hair started coming back in and my personality was back and I was able to laugh, really laugh. Not the fake, i'm fine kind of thing. And gosh, God just keeps on providing.

Our marriage right now is in a place where it's never been before, positively. That's a good thing. And he and I have even, Nick and I have even said gosh, that really sucked. That was really terrible. And we didn't really even know how to be husband and wife in that time 'cause we hadn't been through that kind of trial. We both grew up with really boring childhoods.

Jim: No offense to your parents of course. (laughter)

Lauren Layman: No. No. Neither one of them. Boring is good. Boring is good, but we didn't know how to handle the adversity. Like we didn't know what to do. Listened to lots of worship music. I couldn't really listen to the Bible because I couldn't process it. I couldn't really read, so I just listened to worship music over and over again, same songs over and over again.

And God is good, like he is, and if anything, it's taught me that we can do really hard things with him. And we've been able to teach our girls that sometimes we have to do really hard things. The girl who has a serious needle phobia, who passed out when she had to give blood as a sophomore in high school, frequently doesn't do well with needles, now gives herself an injection every week. That sounds silly, but only God. Like seriously, like only God.

Martha: Yes.

Lauren Layman: And I don't really have a choice at this point because the other option is not an option for me. Sitting on the sidelines of my life with the girls and with the business, with my husband, and with my friends, it's not an option. And so I just do what I have to to feel better.

Martha: So I'm curious how this testimony that God's been writing in your life, how does it affect your day to day now when you work with customers or vendors or marketing or your family or your friends? Like, how do you see that translating into who you have become today?

Lauren Layman: I have a lot more grace, cause gosh, you have no idea what people are going through. You just have no idea. Because a lot of people didn't know. I just told you guys, I have not made this public. There are lots of people who know, hundreds of people who know. But I didn't go blaring in my diagnosis on Facebook or Instagram or any other sort of social media. It just wasn't, I didn't need that. God didn't need that to use it.

Martha: But what you're saying is with not knowing what people are going through, you could have been in a checkout line at a store having a really hard day and that cashier has no idea what you're dealing with. And, I think we need in all of our work, taking that perspective into our interactions with other people is huge.

Lauren Layman: Yeah. I didn't really consider myself an empathetic person before. Our daughter Nora, is like crazy empathetic. And maybe I am, and maybe it had just been like suppressed for all these years. I'm a perfect perfectionist, so I didn't wanna, show that emotional weakness, but it's really an emotional strength to be able to try to relate to people, try to be patient with them. As far as the day to day goes. I go to God with almost everything right now. Whether it's the business with what the future looks like for that, we want God in that.

Whether it's with our daughters and their athletic tryouts or the teachers they're gonna have, anytime something comes across my mind right now. Before I would worry about it. And now I just, it doesn't have to be fancy. You don't have to like drop to your knees and have this big elaborate prayer that's 17 points. Just be like, God, just be with them. Just watch over them, help them. Help them follow your path. Like you've already written the path. Like just help them follow it. Help me follow it.

We prayed a lot during that time of slam the doors shut that need slammed and crack the windows that need cracked and lead us to the air, lead us in a way that you need us to go. And he did that in ways that I still, that's why I kept notes on my phone. I was like, I don't wanna forget this. I wanna go back to this monument in my life. When the Israelites were walking through the wilderness, they put up monuments to remember where God had brought them from and I don't have that. I don't wanna forget how he stood, how he had my back. And that sounds silly and cliche, but like he really does.

But I hadn't ever had to lean into it before and I have never had people pray for me. I had a girl in my neighborhood who I'm friends with but we don't hang out. She lives down the street, like has a daughter, but she's not the same age. And we've had some conversations, but not super deep. She fasted for me for three days.

Martha: Wow.

Lauren Layman: Ive never had anybody fast for me before. Like she didn't eat and she prayed and I know that you guys and so many others did, and it's humbling.

Martha: So what would you say right now to the listeners that either they're going through a hard time and they don't see the end, they don't see the diagnosis, they don't see where it's going, or they have somebody in their life that's in that position? What would you say to them to encourage and challenge them today?

Lauren Layman: I wanna say just keep going. Keep fighting for yourself. Ask God to. Know where to fight, know what to fight for. As Jim said, our life is certainly gonna be more difficult if we follow Jesus. That's reality. And when you're closer to God, it's probably gonna be even harder.

But know that he hasn't left you. Like even when it felt like I was all alone and there were many nights at Barnes that I was all alone next to my hospital roommate who was on a sleep apnea machine. I was there by myself and I had no one except for the nurses who walked in that had bible verses tattooed on their arms or the nurses who, I'm a talker, like Jim, like I just ask about them and I remember I prayed with one of the nurses who was drawing 18 vials of blood from my arm.

Martha: So it was a good long prayer. (laughter)

Lauren Layman: Yeah. It was. But we didn't pray for me. We prayed for her because she had family that hadn't been over able to come over from the US. She was, I don't even remember what nationality she was, and it doesn't matter, but look for God in those things. Look for those little whispers, even when he feels so far away and so silent and when things are so hard. I didn't really feel like I had a choice but to lean on him. I didn't have a choice because my community and my family didn't allow me that choice either.

So I guess that would be my first thing is if you're going through it alone, you don't have to. There is someone, there has to be someone who will, fight for you and fight with you. And that's what I had. And so it made a huge difference just in my mental space.

Jim: Sometime in the next year we'll pick up the second part of this story, which is what does it look like now in the insurance agency? Now that Lauren Layman has gone through all of this adversity and God is moving her into that third generation of leadership. Lauren Layman, thanks for being with us today.

Lauren Layman: You bet. Happy to be here.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

6/25/25 - 2100: A Subsidiary of God's Business

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Brett Johnson is a veteran discipler in the faith and work movement. For decades Brett has poured his life into others as they live out their faith in their work. Investing in people is Brett's thing, and he's done it all over the world.

Brett and I talked earlier this month and decided to have an unbridled conversation about the state of the faith and work movement and what he sees God doing and how we can join God in the amazing work he's doing in the hearts and minds of workplace believers. Brett Johnson, welcome to iWork4Him.

Brett Johnson: Thanks Jim and Martha, it's great to be with you both.

Jim: Brett, we'd like to start off with our new guest to the show, with your Jesus story. Tell us your Jesus story.

Brett Johnson: Sure. I grew up in a family where my grandfather was a Baptist minister. My dad was in the congregational church and I grew up knowing a lot about Jesus, but I realized when I got to being about 19 years old, after I'd led a Bible study at boarding school and been a Sunday school superintendent, all of this stuff, I realized that I knew a lot about Jesus, but there was something missing and that was repentance. And my understanding was good. I think my motives were fine, but I hadn't had a real repentance.

And then God just showed me my heart on my knees in my study and yep, then everything changed. And that was when I was 19 years old.

Jim: So a few years ago. (chuckles) So at what point in time did God draw your attention to the disconnect in your life between your work and your faith and how those became intertwined?

Brett Johnson: Yeah fortunately I didn't have the disconnect because my grandfather actually worked prior to him becoming a Baptist minister and supported himself through his studies and so forth. My father and my mom, they worked together. They had clothing factories and other businesses, and were bi-vocational. They also planted churches.

So as a teenager, I asked my mom, what would dad do if he had more money? And she said he'd plant more churches, and it was just the expected thing. That's what you would do. And so they did that. So when I worked, I went to university, I studied a Bachelor of Commerce, considered joining Youth for Christ 'cause we'd been on their associate staff, went on to become a chartered accountant, but there was no question of one or the other.

And so when I joined Pricewaterhouse, for example, I just prayed, God, where do you want me to work? He showed me Pricewaterhouse. I went, I only ever interviewed with them. And they said, are you interviewing anywhere else? At that stage it was the big eight firms. And I said, no, I believe I'm supposed to work here. And I don't know if they felt the pressure or whatever, but they offered. But yeah, so I feel I was called to Pricewaterhouse.

Jim: But there is a big disconnect that a typical believer experiences when they go to work. What drew your attention? Because you've spent a lot of years discipling workplace believers, how did you begin to understand that most workplace believers have a disconnect between their faith and their faith at work and their ability to flourish in their work?

Brett Johnson: Yeah, I became passionate about the abolition of dichotomy early on back in like 1989.

Jim: Oh wait a minute.

Martha: I like that - abolition of dichotomy.

Jim: Okay, explain that before you go forward 'cause I just got lost and I can't spell what you just said.

Brett Johnson: Okay, sure. So I got involved in a local church. It was started by four business guys. My dad was one of them. And it was like Presbyterian and a Methodist and just a mix of these guys. And they started the denominational church. The church at some point decided to call a pastor. Now he had a background in business, but he came in and I saw it was a little bit like a one man band.

He was extremely gifted. He did a lot of different things. And I noticed that the business people in the church felt a bit like second class citizens. And so then what happened is that he left the church, he got into trouble. There were some issues with him and I had to take over the church.

Now I'm the ripe old age of 24, and Lyn and I, Lyn was still working. We would have elders meetings 5:30, 5 o'clock every morning of the week and then preach on the weekend and then go back to work on Monday. So I was waiting for God to tell me to quit my job at Pricewaterhouse, where I had some of the biggest clients in the country. I was a senior manager there, and he didn't, so now I had two jobs and I had to figure out how to integrate these two jobs.

And because God didn't give me the permission to quit Pricewaterhouse, which I was asking about, and then on top of that, we started getting involved with Youth with a Mission, YWAM, and a friend of mine had started YWAM in Africa on his honeymoon. He and his wife had traveled down through Africa, and just an amazing couple. He was also a chartered accountant, so came out of a business background. And we began consulting to missions organizations. Now we had three jobs and so the only answer was you couldn't try to balance these things. And then we had a couple of kids as well.

So we were leading a church, senior job at Pricewaterhouse, consulting to mission organizations. And we just had to figure out the integration. And raising the two kids. And so then what we had to do was figure out these worlds couldn't be balanced. They had to be blended. And I also noticed that there was a lot of great principles out of the mission world that could strengthen the local church. There was stuff out of the business world that could be applied in the local church, but there were leadership and other lessons, character things out of the church world that were relevant in business.

And these three worlds spoke different languages. And I figured out we have to figure out how to integrate these worlds practically. For quite a few years we took on no staff at the church. I never got paid. And we pushed our business people into leadership positions in the church. We scheduled them to preach, to share, to do all of these things. And then they went on actually to start mission organizations and to pastor churches and do other things. And so we actually deliberately strove to break down this barrier between " some jobs are more spiritual than others. It's more spiritual to preach than to do a spreadsheet, or it's more spiritual to work in a church than to work at Pricewaterhouse." That sort of nonsense.

So that secular sacred dichotomy, I hated it with a passion because it sidelined 95, 99% of people in the Kingdom of God. They became just spectators.

Martha: Oh, and that's so true. And I think a lot of people don't even realize that they've become spectators. It's what the culture has grown and bred. So those same people though, that you were having business people that were leading in the church, what were they doing when they went back into their work? Did they actually allow their faith to be a forefront principle of what they were doing?

Brett Johnson: Yeah, I think they were. I think they were, because we weren't super religious, we were quite close to the communities we were in. And so people were praying about what to do in their work situation, how to do it in their work situation. And I think historically, business people have asked, been asked to do two things, to write checks, to give money, and to witness, which typically means, invite somebody to church, that sort of deal.

But I found that people are chicken and they're cheap (laughter) and so effectively people were thinking about, how do I develop products? How do I do new things? How do I do new things with God? I will say that when we moved to the States, which was in 1986, we came for one year was the plan. And as the aircraft was landing in San Francisco, God said to me, this is gonna be your home for quite a while. And we literally just arrived with four suitcases, and it was gonna be one year, just a tour of duty. Then I would go back. And so we began to ask God, why do you want us to stay in the States?

And he said, I want you to figure out a way to blend together these three worlds. And so then we began working more deliberately with entrepreneurs and business people in Silicon Valley, and yes, the separation of work and faith was an issue. Even after we started our own business, one of my employees came to me and said, Brett, are we a business or are we a ministry? I said, yes. And he said no, you don't understand my question.

So people have been taught for years in church, sometimes by default, and preachers will say the right words: oh no, you're now entering the mission field and so forth, but the upwardly mobile career path in the church is you become an assistant deacon, a deacon, an elder, a this or that. And the career ladder is inside, right?

Jim: Brad, you'll never believe the things that I was told. So Martha and I were entrepreneurs from early on in our lives. Martha grew up in an entrepreneurial family. I grew up as an entrepreneur, and when we were newly married in our twenties, early twenties, youth sponsors of the church, working outside jobs, this is what we were taught by our two mentor couples. Business is business and church is church. They have nothing to do with each other. So make a lot of money in business and give it to the church and maybe you'll serve on a building committee one day. You forgot about the building committee.

There's Deacon, and you know it's assistant deacon and elder, but you forgot about the building committee. 'cause the ultimate goal, of course, of the great commission is to build big buildings. That's in second hesitations. You have to look that up. It's verse four in chapter 17. (laughter)

We need to recognize this is a real thing, but I wanna talk about, I wanna come back after a break here. I really wanna talk about what you're seeing around the world, because we know this is a thing in the States, but is it also the same thing around the world? Martha?

Martha: Our first sponsor of the day is the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, and most listeners have heard of the local Chamber of Commerce for their own city. But did you know that there is a National Christian Chamber of Commerce? That's right. The U-S-C-C-C helps Christian business owners grow their business and impact - through expert resources, powerful collaborations, and a national directory for greater exposure. So join iWork4Him and grow your business by joining the USchristianchamber.com.

Jim: Brett, you and Lyn have traveled across the world. You're from South Africa, you have a southern accent, but yet you spent a ton of time in California and today, did I have it in my head, right? Are you in Tennessee? Is that where you're at? Yeah, Chatanooga. That must really throw people off. You say, yeah, I'm from the deep south, and they're like, no, I don't think so. (laughter)

All right. But you've traveled the world, you've discipled people across the world. Is this dissection between faith and work, the sacred secular, false theology, is it all over the place? Is it everywhere?

Brett Johnson: No, not really. So it depends on the country. So for example, about. 40 years ago, more than 40 years ago, I was in the Ukraine and I was speaking to the head of a denomination there and I said, what percentage of your pastors have other jobs? He said, 99.9. I'm the only one who doesn't. Then I went to Egypt and I was speaking there at some Global Leadership Summit and there a pastor, if he takes a second job like driving an Uber or a taxi or running a vending machine, they say, no, you don't have the faith to be a pastor, but they're only paying him a hundred, 200 pounds a month and he's got a couple of kids and they're struggling.

And whereas in Nigeria, bivocational is the norm. So I have good friends over there. They're government ministers, bank CEOs, lawyers, et cetera, and they lead a church. It's just the norm. So it's, it varies by country.

Martha: Take that a little bit further because there's probably a principle behind this idea that when a pastor is bi-vocational, he better understands what? The workplace. He understands that he doesn't turn off his faith when he is driving the Uber, or he doesn't turn off his faith when he is being an accountant. So how does that translate then into helping the everyday workplace believer to better understand that we should never turn off our faith?

Brett Johnson: Yeah. For me, there's some things that should be self-evident. There's a series of principles. Firstly, that work is good. I grew up thinking that work was punishment for sin because when I was naughty, then my mom in particular, she was a disciplinarian, you had to cut the grass, pick up the dog poop, all that stuff. And so the worst the crime, the more the work.

So I grew up with this notion that work was bad instead of work is good. God works. We are gonna work in heaven, and our work on earth is prepped for what we're gonna do for eternity. The reward for doing a good job here is a bigger job in heaven. Then secondly, that work is worship. When people understand that the Hebrew word for work and for worship is the same word, or the word for business and for ministry is the same word. So I can say, my name is. Brett and I go to my place of worship, which is Pricewaterhouse, where I do my ministry. I'll go to a place of work where I do my business.

It's the same thing in the Hebrew mindset. So when you understand some of those basics and that business is a force, a redemptive force for good in society, not something you allocate to a nonprofit. So for example, in Africa right now, there's a big stink about USAID funding being cut and all of that. But the people locally, their biggest problem is poverty and unemployment and handouts don't help. Statistically, they don't. So if we can teach people that work is good, you're expected to work for a living, God has gifted you to do something, it completely transforms the mindset.

So once people understand some of those basics, then they're off to the races. And for me it's not just about, oh yeah, Jack and Jill can have a more fulfilling life. It's that business is the most effective vehicle for discipling nations, for getting the great commission done, for transforming nations. So for me, I don't care if businesses in the US become 10% more profitable, I want to see business people we launched as a force for good.

So back to my own story. You know when I went to visit the guys up at YWAM at their headquarters in South Africa and I was chatting with them and I'd just done a big project for Shell, South Africa, around executive information systems, key performance indicators, all of the normal business stuff. So then I go up to the missions organization and they don't have data, they don't have the systems to gather that kinda stuff. Guys go off on a three months mission trip and they come back and they say it was a blessing. They don't know how many people they saw, what happened, so we put systems together for them and built computer programs back in the 1980s and they got a 25% increase in throughput through their ministry with no increase in staff or budget.

Martha: Wow.

Brett Johnson: And this was taking the business skills of everyday people and then coming along and using it for the kingdom. And it wasn't about evangelism or raising money or doing any of those things. So if you think about the wastage across the body of Christ because A, people have been sidelined, and B, their pragmatic skills are not being used to extend the kingdom.

Jim: So two things you mentioned, I want to hit back on because most people grow up with the idea that work is a punishment for sin. And it's so important to recognize that God gave Adam work before sin existed, but I never thought about the fact that our parents drove home that false narrative by making us work as a punishment. So I never thought - mom and dad, false theology, mom and dad. (laughter)

Martha: So even on a good day they should be making everybody work.

Jim: That's right. All right.

Martha: The kids are gonna not like you, Jim. (laughter)

Jim: That's right. That's right. Okay, but this whole idea that most people, first of all, I'm gonna give you a word. Are you in business or are you in ministry? Thanks to Chuck Proudfit from At Work On Purpose in Cincinnati, Ohio. You're in biznistry. It is a copyrighted word by Chuck Proudfit. So you're in biznistry. It's both. But a lot of times people think, Brett, that being in ministry at work means that it's all about evangelism, but it's so much more.

It's about the cultivation of the earth. It's about bringing about flourishing. And the way I summarize it is that as a believer, everything about us should be changing, but everybody around us should be benefiting from our faith, whether they believe in Jesus or not. That's the kingdom. So our businesses, our organizations, should be creating blessing to everybody around us.

If you've got a business in a city, it should be blessing the city, not only the employees, the vendors, the customers, and you as a business owner, but also the city should be blessed because you're there.

Brett Johnson: Hundred percent. Yeah. And there have been good historical examples of businesses that have actually sought the good of their city. That's what they've done, and they've been there for the benefit of the city. I think that there's a notion of what I call called corporations, like key companies that God has in cities there to bless the city. Now they can go sideways and they can think about maximizing shareholder value and making as much money for themselves.

But a good business will actually be there for the enhancement of the city. We claim Jeremiah 29, I know the plans I have for you to give your future, and I hope, and so on, that's written to people who care about the wellbeing, the prosperity, the flourishing of their city.

Jim: That's not just written to business people 'cause there are people that are serving in government, there are people who are serving in arts and entertainment, there are people who are serving in education, all these other places. To me, it seems like communicating to business people is easy. I understand business, but communicating to people that don't work in business, that their job is important in the kingdom too. How do you deal with those people?

Brett Johnson: Yeah, I've written a book called Transforming Society, looking at 10 spheres of Society. So the things that you mentioned - education, media, government, those type of things. And our job is to, if we are gonna go and disciple a nation, you better understand what's going on in the nation.

So you have to understand what are the foundations, what's the history, what are the assets? I believe God puts assets in every community that are there for the flourishing of that nation. And so you have to figure out what it looks like, an asset based approach, and then how do you steward those assets?

Because under stewardship of assets is one of the biggest giants that we face in society, and you can see it all over the world as you travel. Some languages don't even have a word for maintenance, for example. And so that falls apart. And so the stewardship that you mentioned just doesn't take place.

So if you look at the health of the different spheres and what would it look like if the glory of God was restored to media, to business, to government, to healthcare, to family, to religion and so forth, what would it look like? Because in Corinthians, it speaks about God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself.

That word there is cosmos, not people. It's not ethnos. So God wants to reconcile the whole kitten caboodle, the whole tamale, as they say in Mexico. (laughter) I was gonna say in Greek, but they'll catch me out, so the whole tamal, reconcile back to himself. So we have to have a grid for viewing society and say, okay, what's going on in the different sectors?

How healthy are they? Who's doing great work? How do we get it behind them? Who's lacking resources? Who's lacking training, education capital? What do we do to treat the whole organism, if you like, of society in a holistic way?

Martha: Man, there are so many things, and I know that, I know you probably have more questions, but something that that just made me think of is we have so many examples in scripture where God purposefully equipped someone with a skill for a certain purpose.

And I think so many of us go through life wondering, how is God going to use me? I am a really good seamstress. What is that gonna do for the kingdom? And I just wanna encourage the listeners right now that whatever God has skilled you in is on purpose. And it is to be used for the kingdom, whether it's you're a good seamstress, so you're gonna clothe people that need to be clothed, or you're just gonna make beautiful things because God made you creative and he made you resourceful, whatever it might be.

That's a worldwide commonality that God created us uniquely, and that we then need to find a way to use that gift for the kingdom. Even the reverse Jim, we had friends that were missionaries in Lebanon and their mission work was to be the human resource person and the accountant within that organization because they were really good at that skill and they could help mission progress by being very accountable for the things that God made them really good at business and using it in that way. So just outta context we think so narrow mindedly in our normal response because we have things like parents that punish us by making us weed the garden.

No, I'm just kidding. We really, we've had that reinforced over the years. There's tiers and that we are just less than, and it's so much more than that. And I hope that's what the listeners are hearing today.

Brett Johnson: Yeah. People used to say to me, Martha, if I knew what my calling was, then I could do what God wanted me to do. And we have this notion of calling like it's Mother Theresa, it's Hudson Taylor. It's somewhere out there. But now I tell people, do you wanna know your calling? They say, yes. I tell 'em you're called to work a hundred percent and you can pretty much safely assume that if you're a seamstress, you're called to be a seamstress unless God redirects you. Yeah, and there's a lovely scripture in Psalm 78, verse 72, where it says that God took David from being the shepherd of the sheep and made him the shepherd of a nation. It was the same job. It was just a different scope and focus.

God took Peter, the fishermen, and said i'm gonna make you a fisher of men. He's oh, I get that. You know I'm a fisherman. Yes. So a farmer, he makes a kingdom farmer. So he likes to take our career and give it a kingdom twist, put it on kingdom steroids, if you like. But it's rare that he's gonna say, oh, Jim, you're gonna become a pop star or you're gonna become a ballet dancer. He's no, Jim, you're good at this stuff. This is the way I made you.

Jim: Belly dancer or ballet dancer? (laughter) Ballet dancer. You know the way you said that, it sounded exactly the same. (laughing)

Alright, but you talk about incredible solutions. I wanna make sure before we ask Brett our last question that we've draw attention to SaferNet.

We all want a safe internet experience and Martha and I love to partner with Kingdom companies that bring great products for our listeners. SaferNet basically keeps you from being stupid on your computer. I've got it on my mom's computer because sometimes she likes to click on all the pretty links and she's 91, and sometimes those pretty links take her to places she shouldn't go.

If you want a solution for all of your devices, your phones, your tablets, your laptops your desktops, SaferNets got a antivirus, a VPN, it's got web filters, it's got everything you need for a business or a family to keep your internet experience safe. Check 'em out online. SaferNet.com. Brett, last question for the day, 'cause we're gonna run outta time.

It just seems like the local church, they don't seem to recognize the extreme need for workplace believers to be launched into their workplace mission field, their assigned place of ministry. What's your perspective on how do we fix this?

Brett Johnson: Yeah, I think we've made a mistake of making the church the destination. It's actually just a halfway house for business people. So if you look at Abraham, his father was called to go to Canaan. His father was a guy by the name of Terah. And he got halfway there, he found a sweet real estate deal and he settled down. He never went all the way. So Abraham had a recall.

He had to now walk out what his father should have done. And the church has become the halfway house, but it's never intended to be, the destination is the nations. So when we put the nations in front of business people and say, we'll support you as the church, we'll empower you, but we don't want you to do your ministry inside the walls of the church.

We want you to do it out there. Connect them to the nations. They might say, oh yeah, but there's a need in Dallas or there's a need in Pittsburgh or whatever. That's great, but God is the God of, and it's Jerusalem and Judea and Samaria and the ends of the earth. It's not the God of or. It's not a question of, do I serve God here or there?

No. It's if we can give businesses a purpose that connects to the nations, then they get excited, then they get passionate, they go out, they do crazy things with and through business, and then they come back and they're enriching to their local church.

Martha: I just want to go back to the seamstress analogy because I think that this can really just drive it home for people in the sense that, okay, you have a business where you make clothing, and it's really good, and it covers people and it allows them to be warm or whatever its purpose might be. You can use that business to teach other people.

That same work to employ them, to give them livelihood. You can also do it for a purpose, to fill a need, maybe do something with generosity to clothe people that can't afford to buy your clothing. And you can, there's so many ways that you can use that skill. I think in our lives we've been told, okay, quit making clothing and go and only make clothing in the foreign country.

Jim: I'm gonna quit my job and go into ministry.

Martha: Yeah. But there's so much more. Now that doesn't mean you can't make clothing for other people that are naked and need clothing, but then also the, all of the other aspects of the work that you're doing that can bring glory to God. And I think that's the perspective that I just want people to hear for today.

Jim: Brett, any final thoughts for us?

Brett Johnson: Yeah. I'm reminded, Martha, of one of the first things God did in the garden. I tell people, find your job in the Bible. If you're a seamstress, it's not hard because one of the first things he did was to clothe those guys, right? And then I'm reminded in the book of Acts where the apostles, they took the apostles handkerchiefs.

And they prayed over these things. They went there, laid them on people, and they were healed. We now have businesses who pray over their clothing products before they go out. So an item of clothing can reflect the glory of God and physical products can carry the glory of God. We think, oh, it's just, if I make it nicely, if I make it honestly - actually these things can embody and can carry the power of God.

We had a customer, a client we worked with in Indonesia, and they make towels, just like Terry towels that you use. We talked about this concept of - and think about a handkerchief. It's for blowing your nose. It's pretty gross. But if those things can carry the healing from God, not to get overly religious about this thing, now they begin to pray over everything that goes out so that.

The presence of God, the attributes, the nature of God that is embodied in something like clothing and so forth. People in the garden, they didn't know what God was like because they read it in a Bible, they heard a sermon, and they only saw from his products, from what he made. So people can see what God is like from the clothing that you make, if that's your line of business that you're in.

And my parents had clothing factories, by the way.

Martha: Crazy. That's great.

Jim: Brett, it's a great conversation. We could go on for hours talking like this. Bottom line it for all of us. Go ahead and summarize it for us.

Brett Johnson: Yeah. Pretty simple. Your call to work, your work is your worship. You're probably called to be in the marketplace. There's a very small percentage, statistically, who are called to do something where you're paid to be good, you're in a pulpit, you're in a missions organization.

From a sustainability perspective, the majority of us are called to be in a place where we have self-funding missions models. And every business trip should be a missions trip, and we need to connect the purpose of our business to the purpose of God's business. The goal isn't to get God into our business. That's easy. But how do we get our business into God's business? So what's God doing in the world and how do we, as a subsidiary of God's business, as an employee of God unlimited, how do we work for his purposes and the completion of his mandate? That's the bottom line for me.

Martha: Wow.

Jim: Brett Johnson, thanks for being on iWork4Him today.

Brett Johnson: Great to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field. But ultimately iWork4Him.

6/18/25 - 2099: A Front Row Seat to the Miraculous

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: When Chuck Ripka, a US Bank banker from Elk River, Minnesota - a great place, by the way, love Elk River, Minnesota - when he read the scripture that promised believers could do even greater things than Jesus, he signed on. By faithfully doing what God tells him, he's experienced a stream of miracles transforming his work, other businesses, communities, countries. That story started in 2003 and continues today.

Martha and I had the honor of being with Chuck in Tulsa last October at the 94X conference and asked him to be on iWork4Him to share the story that impacted Elk River, Minnesota, and beyond. Chuck joins us today to tell us his banking story, probably a lot of other stories, and how his mortgage business has carried the torch for God for decades. Chuck Ripka, finally, welcome to iWork4Him.

Chuck Ripka: Hey guys. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. I always love sharing God's stories.

Jim: I know you do. We've just had an incredible lead up to recording today's show. I wish I captured all those stories for you guys in the audience, but you just have to go hear Chuck, speak one time.

Chuck, we will always start off with first time guest on our show, the Jesus Story. How did you start walking with Jesus?

Chuck Ripka: I grew up Catholic, so I had knowledge of God, but I wasn't satisfied. And then, so in 1980 at a Amway Convention in Arizona, I was searching for God and someone made an altar call and I stood up. Here it is, I get saved in the marketplace. And then I made a decision, came back to my home, 1980, told my wife what's going on, with my brother-in-law, and we started a Bible study.

And through that process began the journey. But the thing that for me was I started reading the Bible with new eyes, and it said, God's the same yesterday, today, and forever. I said, okay, God, if that's really true, then speak to me. I want to hear your voice. I wanna have dreams. I want visions. I want burning bush experiences. I wanna see angels. I want it all.

Be careful what you ask for. I can tell you a story, multiple stories, I have it all, and I'm not satisfied. I want more. I keep asking and asking for more and more, and I've been blessed. God has just, has honored that prayer for me. I've witnessed, I've, I tell people I feel like I have a front row seat with God. But usually to have that, that's always the most expensive seat, is the front row seat, right? And I've come to realize the price I have to pay to have that seat with God is I tell people I'm finally getting comfortable being uncomfortable.

I'm not comfortable doing what I'm doing, but that's the price I have to pay, is being uncomfortable, and then I'm willing to do whatever he asked me to do. So I've been extremely blessed. I feel like along the way also too, I tell people, I feel like God has just personally mentored me. I do things I'm doing not because I read a book or someone told me to go do this. I've had people come alongside me and encourage me in my walk, in my journey, but I really feel personally, God has come along and has taught me how to do what I'm doing along the way.

And just even, I'm 66 now and three years ago I started seeing a lot of my friends start posting about different things, about retirement, and I had that thought just for a second. And then God spoke to me and he said, Chuck, you've been practicing all your life for what's ahead of you. What you've experienced in the past has been phenomenal but will be considered just good compared to what you're about to enter into. So there's no retirement.

It's just another season, another story. So I'm getting ready for what's going on, so I just tell people I'm still practicing even after I've been walking with the Lord for 41 years, I'm still - actually walking with the Lord for... I'm 66, so actually, yeah, so I'm really about 45 years I've been walking with the Lord.

Martha: Wow.

Chuck Ripka: But I'm still practicing yet.

Jim: You worked at Levitt's Furniture. Love that. Levitt. Levitt. Levits. And then you worked at Market Bank in Minneapolis, and then God led you to start a brand new bank, as they say, a Denovo Bank in Elk River, Minnesota. Mind you, I've never seen an elk in Elk River, by the way. So don't really know where that name came from. (laughter) Were there ever elk in Elk River? I don't know, but I've been there a bunch of times. So pick up the story there, Chuck.

Chuck Ripka: I wanna back up just a little bit before we jump into that story, because this one story, it's really, it's a story for every listener. And it's really, it is what caused me to do what I still even do today. And I wanna go back to that Levit story. See, when I was 25 years old, God spoke to me and he said, Chuck, someday you're gonna pray with a customer. Never done that before. Never thought I could do that. But I got tricked into saying yes because you said someday.

I said, sure, I can do that someday. I'd never prayed with anybody at that point except for my mom. But I said yes. Three months goes by. I worked with lots of customers and then a stranger walks into the store and as he was approaching me, God said, this is the one. And right away I got super uncomfortable and I said, no, I can't.

I'm on commission. I got a bad week going. I'm coming up with a list of excuses why I cannot talk to this guy about the Lord. But God was real quiet. I said, okay, fine. It's still my number one prayer today. Lord, open the door. If this is really you, open the door. And this stranger walks into the store, walks up to me and says, I'm looking for a mattress that you have on sale.

I said, I know which one you're talking about. As I was walking him down the aisle to this mattress, this stranger begins to tell me the struggles of his life. He's divorced, he's got custody of the kids. Life really stinks, and he says, why am I telling you all of this? I said I know why. God told me three months ago, somebody like you was gonna come into the store. I was supposed to pray with you and invite Christ in your life. And he did.

And something really important happened right after that: he bought the mattress. And God spoke to me again. He said, Chuck, I've just proven to you that you're gonna be able to do ministry and prosper at the same time. So it's been, that's been 41 years of walking out my faith wherever I go, where it doesn't matter where I'm working.

Still, even just recently, just a couple weeks ago, led somebody else to the Lord. But it's been 41 years of leading hundreds of people to Lord. But that was the very first one. And I really believe that's a story for everybody, that if you're willing to be obedient, listen to God, and he can use us. And so that's how the door - God just continues to open those doors. And along the way, eventually God opened the door... see, I have a high school education, no theological background, just being a regular guy. But along the way, God would speak. And so as time went along, eventually God opened the door for me to get into banking, which is another story itself.

But eventually I got into mortgage banking and part of one of those stories before I even started my own bank and I won't get into the full story, it's a great story, but I won't get into the full story, but I was working for Market Bank. And so I had been there for two years, so started in 1995, and 1997 I get a call from the owner of Market Bank. His name is Carl Pohlad. And he owns 135 banks. Reception said Mr. Pohlad's on the phone, he wants to talk to you, and I'm thinking I'm in trouble.

Why is he calling me? And I get on the phone with him. He says, you're doing a loan for a family friend of mine, for his son, and I want you to reduce some of the closing costs. I said, I know who you're talking about. I think I gave him a pretty good deal. I don't think we need to do anything more.

He said as a favor to me, would you reduce the cost? We figured out what that would be, and we hung up. I thought, what a nice man. He could have called the bank president. He could have my manager, but he called me and so the very next day I decided to call him back. I said, Hey, Mr. Pohlad, I did that favor for you yesterday and I've been working for you for a couple years.

I've never had an opportunity to meet you. Could I have lunch with you? He said, sure, why not? And what happened was that we scheduled a lunch appointment, but when I hung up the phone, God spoke to me. He said, Chuck, not only are you going to have lunch with him, but you're gonna lead him to me. He's gonna invite Christ in his life.

I thought, oh, okay. So because that's just how simple it is. Actually over whatever, 47 years, no one's ever said no. It's just a matter of listening to God when the right moment, right timing it is. And I won't get into the full story, but actually that lunch appointment got rescheduled and rescheduled. Finally, as the Lord began to mentor me, he said, pray for his heart to be ready to receive me for when it's time.

That took a whole year for that lunch appointment to happen, October 20th, 1998. I won't get into the story. It's a great story, but it actually happened. Him and I had lunch, led him to the Lord. He was 83 years old. We became friends for the next 10 years until he passed away.

But the day, that day that happened, october 20th, 1998, I got back to the bank and I was so happy, so excited, because the same thing I was just doubting that morning, is it really gonna happen? It all came to pass, just as God said it would.

But this is what God told me: when I got back to the bank after that lunch, God spoke to me. He said, Chuck, I wanna let you know, I trust you. And to hear God say that... this is the God of the universe telling me he trusts me. I said, oh no. I trust you. Everything you sent me to go do, you did. He said, oh, if you trust me, take me outta the box you put me in. You're limiting me what I want to do in your life.

And see, because in my mind, again, I just have a high school education, no theological background at all. And I told the Lord, I said, but I don't know anything. He said, perfect. Less that I have to correct. I love that. And he said, because you say that, you don't know what you can't say, and you don't know what you can't do. I can use somebody like you.

Gosh, that makes so much sense. Because I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what I can't say, but I'm willing to be obedient and listen. And eventually what happened, eventually I went to Carl Pohlad and I told him I'm going to go start my own bank. And I figured that he might be upset with me, but he said he wasn't.

And actually I asked him for something before I left his bank. This was in December of 2000. I said, Carl, I said, so I worked for his bank for five years. I said, Carl, I want to ask you for something before I leave 'cause I'm gonna go start my own bank. And this is in December of 2000. And he said, what's that?

I said the Lord told me that you have an anointing to raise up banks and financial institutions, and God told me to ask you, would you pray for me and part that into my life? And he said, wow, no one's ever asked me that before. Okay. He comes up behind his desk. So I figured here, Carl, I'm going to leave your company. I'm going to compete against you, but would you bless me before I leave? Do you do that? Does anybody ever do that? No.

But God told me to ask him and he said yes. And he came and he began to pray. We were holding hands. He said, father, you've given me much. Now I release. As soon as he said release, I could feel the physical, electrical current flowing from him to me. And right away I got nervous and said, Lord, I don't want something that doesn't belong to me. Shouldn't his sons receive this? He said, oh no. His sons received the monetary blessing, but you'll receive the anointing now. Be quiet and receive it. And he prayed and parted that into my life. And we remained friends until he passed away. He was, I think 95 years old or 93 years old.

But along the way, so eventually we had to raise - a friend of mine, Dwayne Kapinsky, that I had worked with years earlier, approached me, said, Chuck, would you consider coming back to work with me? And we wanna start our own bank. And so that's in 2000, so we had to raise $5 million.

And so we were running a mortgage company at that point, but it took us a few years and we eventually raised the $5 million to start our own bank, and officially, March of 2003, we launched our bank in Elk River, Minnesota, Review Community Bank. Now, the interesting thing about that though is the moment, the very second, the bank officially opened up, that very morning, I'm sitting at my desk, God spoke to me. He said, Chuck, a key word: if you do all the things I've called you to do here, I promise you I will take care of the bottom line. I said, where do I sign? I get to do what you want me to do and you'll take care of the bottom line. He said, yes, but because you're going to do that, the secular world's gonna call, and simply tell 'em the truth.

Secular world's gonna call... again I knew what I heard, but I didn't know what he meant. Just file that one away. And I said, by the way, so this is March of 2003. By the end of the year, you will grow to $42 million. 12 months from now, you'll hit $50 million, and within three years, you'll hit a hundred million dollars in growth. Remember we started with $5 million.

I went to Dwayne, the president, and I told him exactly what the Lord told me. He said, check, that's impossible. There's no way we can grow that fast. We don't have the staff to handle it. I said Dwayne, I want to tell you, I already said yes. (laughter)

I said I know we can't make it happen, but God could . And by August of that year, we hit $30 million. End of the year, $42 million. 12 months, $50 million. 30 months, a hundred million dollars, which is all really good stuff. But this is the God part of it. When we hit $30 million, I had led 30 people to the Lord in a bank.

When we had 42 million, I led 42 people to the Lord, which is okay, Lord, this is really strange. When I hit 50 million, I led 50 people to the Lord in a bank. When we hit a hundred million, I led over a hundred people to the Lord in the bank. Now that was all really cool too, but the really amazing thing was people started getting healed.

God started giving me words about people coming and actually allowed me to use the prophetic gifting and give me words of knowledge. People would walk into my room, into my office to get a loan. They got tricked into coming to get a loan, and God showed up and all of a sudden God would give me a word for somebody and I would have grown men start weeping in my office. But how do you know this about me? I said, I don't know, but God told me, and before I know it, I'm leading them to the Lord.

And the thing is, the strange thing is you can't advertise this. God gave me this word. He said, if you do the right thing at the right place at the right time, you're gonna operate in my anointing, my power. That's what was going on. We're doing the right thing at the right place at the right time, and God showed up. The anointing was so amazing that I loved going to work. I was praying with an average of two or three customers or employees every day, going to work. I loved going to work.

There was one day I kept track. I had prayed over 20 some people one day and people said Chuck, how do you get any work done? I said, just stay a little later to get my work done. But in the midst of it, and it got to the point where the local pastors were sending people from their congregation to the bank to get prayer. Pastors were coming to make appointments to get prayer. Because they were having physical problems or issues.

One of the stories I love telling is I went to my dentist, and the dentist, typically the hygienist will clean your teeth. The dentist wanted to clean my teeth that particular day. And as she's cleaning my teeth, she was very inquisitive and just, I wanted to start asking lots of questions and thinking, it's hard to talk with all these instruments in my mouth and asking all these questions, but I keep thinking, but why is she talking so much? And all of a sudden, oh, I get it.

Oh, by the way, at my work, God's been showing up and people have been getting healed. And then she said this, she said, my sister has cancer and can I bring her to your office? That's what she was getting to. I said, sure. So here my dentist was making an appointment to come to the bank to bring her sister to get prayer for healing. That's just normal, right?

Martha: Not what most banks are offering.

Jim: If life was normal, we wouldn't need - wow, we wouldn't need Jesus, now would we? We also wouldn't need SaferNet, and it seems trite to bring up one of our great sponsors, but we need, internet safety, something that we all need and we don't like to need it. But I'm telling you what, SaferNet has served iWork4Him really well. We invite you to check out this great Kingdom company to protect your online experience, SaferNet.com.

Martha: So you have over the years seen a lot of miraculous things that God has done using - you know, I don't wanna discount... I mean there's just so much that you have shared already and I think that our listeners are already getting a sense of a very unique experience, but it doesn't have to be unique. I think that's one of the things I want our listeners to, like everybody doesn't have to come to Elk River to see God move in their lives.

Chuck Ripka: No. I believe that... I've been really blessed. I think in 2003, somebody came to me and said, Chuck, do you know that you're gonna go all over the world speaking? I said, about what? I'm not a preacher. I'm not a teacher. And he said, it's your stories. I said people want to hear stories? He said, your stories.

In 2004, it happened. I started getting an invite to go speaking and God gave me this word. He said when you go, no preparation, no Bible, no notes, no nothing. I'll tell you what to say when you stand up. And that's been 21 years of traveling the world and just sharing God's stories. And I really believe for me to share stories, it brings just normalcy to it, because I'm not a preacher. I'm not a teacher. I don't have a theological background.

I'm just a regular guy willing to be obedient to what God's called me to do. I love the simplicity of God. And how simple he has made himself. And there was one day, I think it was about 22 years ago, I'm sitting in the bank, just sitting there, just doing my work, and God spoke to me. He said, Chuck, I wanna simplify myself to you, make myself so easy, so understandable that I'm gonna take the entire Bible and narrow it down to one word for you.

I'm thinking, one, I didn't ask the question, and two, is that even possible? I said what is one word that describes everything? I'm thinking he is gonna say love. He said, oh, no. It's obedience. If you love me, you obey me. Obedience is better than sacrifice and the entire scriptures from the very beginning to the very end of time, it's always about obedience. And I tell people I'm not obedient because I have to be, it's because I want to be. I love the father so much. I love to please him. And if I'm willing to be uncomfortable, that's what it takes for me to please God, I'm willing to do whatever it takes.

And I just love walking with God. I go out for long walks and I remembered, God, you said that you walked with Adam. Walk with me then. I just really believe that's just, it's just normal. It's gotten to the point in my walk with God that I finally realized I know who's speaking. If it's the father, if it's Jesus, or the Holy Spirit.

Now the refinement of hearing the voice of God has gotten to the point where I know who's actually talking. They're one, but they're separate. And I know now how to minister to people when I know it's the father speaking 'cause I can give them the word based on how God's speaking or how Jesus is speaking. I can deliver it in the manner of how to do that. And I think that if God can use me, that knows nothing, he can use anybody. And I really believe me going out around the world speaking just really brings normalcy. And if you're willing to be obedient, willing to be uncomfortable, a couple things, then God can use you.

And I tell people, you don't have to do what I do. Just do what God's called you to do, just in your sphere of influence. And I ask the Lord a while back. I've been blessed to go into some amazing places to speak, and I'm thinking, but Lord, I'm just like in awe. Who am I to go into this place? Look at all the people that have come before me, and here I am going now into this place to speak. How did I get here? And he just simply told me, he said, you've been willing to be obedient in the little things, now I trust you in the greater things. And the doors keep opening and they keep opening.

And it's just, to me, I have a high expectancy of God. And I've learned in my walk that I can trust God. And God's learned that he can trust me.

Martha: And I would believe that's what is so compelling in people when they hear your stories, is to hear that same God that is using you in an amazing way in your workplace is there for each and every one of us if we will just be obedient and be willing to be uncomfortable, some of the things that you've just shared. It really is amazing when we see God move in our work. It can just be overwhelming even sometimes.

And the US Christian Chamber of Commerce is a gathering place for doing business with people who share our values. The US Christian Chamber connects you to National Network of faith-driven businesses that are committed to excellence and ethics. Join the movement today at uschristianchamber.org.

Jim: I don't mean to correct you, but it's us christian chamber.com.

Martha: Oh, I'm sorry. Okay thank you. I'll put it in the show notes. We'll make sure it's correct there. Sorry.

Just, as I'm listening to your stories, Chuck, and they're God stories, and you make that very clear that this is God at work through you, I think what is so compelling is to think that could God use me in that same way? If I was willing and I was listening, and I think that's what's inspiring.

And I would guess that's the kind of feedback you get from people is that they ask questions like, if you can hear God, can I hear God's voice? What do you tell people when they ask you that?

Chuck Ripka: I said, actually, I think God's talking all the time. Are you just listening? He's always talking and are you just listening?

And I think the thing is we can hear the voice of God, but also too we can hear the voice of the enemy, where he brings in that doubt. Oh, if you can hear different things, when I was driving down the road one day, I was 27 years old working at Levit's yet, driving down the road, God spoke to me.

He said, Chuck, when you turn 40, I'm going to begin to use you. I'm gonna accelerate the things in your life. I've been using you, but I'm gonna accelerate things in your life. But my mind right away, I'm thinking, but oh God, how could you use me? Look at me. But again, he tricked me into it. That was 13 years later.

I said, sure, whatever. But see, he was looking at the future. He was looking at the person that I would come to be. See, as a father, we can see the potential in our children. Now they're not acting like they have that potential, but you know the potential in 'em. And you begin to speak those things into their lives before, and you pray them things in. You may not always can talk to them directly, but you begin to pray for those things.

So God was seeing things in my life before I could see them. And the thing is, when 13 years went by really fast as it does, and just before I turned 40, God spoke to me. He said, remember what you said yes to 13 years ago? And I said, I do, but you know what? It'd be easier for both of us, for you just go find somebody else. I said, I know you've forgiven me, but I struggle in forgiving myself. Look at all the past, look at all the sin, and every time I go to worship God, Satan always reminds me of all my past, all the stupid things I've done. I said, you know what? It's just be easier for both of us, just go find somebody else.

And he said, no. You said yes. It's your time. I said, but I struggle in forgiving myself. He says I'm gonna teach you how to forgive yourself then. I said, how are you gonna do that? He said, I want you to go on a 40 day fast and each day of the fast will represent one year of your life. And I will remind you of your past and you will come before me and you'll repent of those things. And I will show you.

And there are certain days, which will be certain years in this fast, you're gonna go back to certain people and tell 'em what you did. So that will take away from what Satan's been using against you, and you'll tell 'em what you did, even though it's 20 years ago. So that's on day 20, you're gonna go to that person and tell 'em what you did, and then you'll take that away from the enemy. I said, okay, this is like December of 1998. Said, but okay, when do you want me to start? You said January 1st, which makes sense. January 1st, everyone makes a commitment, right? So I decided to count out 40 days, January 1st to February 9th was 40 days. Not realizing February 10th, I turned 40.

Martha: Ah.

Chuck Ripka: And I'm thinking, oh. And I said, but why are you going to do this anyway? He said, I've called you a forerunner. And I as a forerunner, and I've never heard that term before, but I called you a forerunner and I'm gonna take you over a mountain around the bend where no one's been before. But then I'm going to send you back and I want you to go back and tell 'em how to get here. But see, as a runner, you can't run a very straight race when you are looking over your shoulder, looking in your past. I want you not to look in your past, but look to the future where I've called you to go to and that sin is like baggages weighing you down.

So I'm gonna get rid of all of it 'cause I'm gonna accelerate this, accelerate the things in your life. I think, oh man, I can't wait. And he said, when you go on this fast, you will not hunger for one thing but more of me. And I told my wife, she said, you can't do that. You'll die. You just can't stop eating. I said, no, I'm just going on a juice fast. God, he said, I'll actually hunger for more for him than anything. And that's exactly what I did. 40 days. I loved it. It was one of the highlights of my life is when I turned 40 because God got rid of so much stuff and we began my journey.

And so it's really, that's been 26 years ago and God literally has accelerated the things in my life. So if God can use me, he really literally can use any of us, because he's allowed me to take me through all my stuff and help me become who I am and the thing I'm excited about is I'm still practicing and I tell people it's okay to be wrong. Just be obedient. If we are wrong, you're wrong. But how can you be wrong when you want to give a word of encouragement to somebody, how could that be wrong? If you give the wrong word but it's still a word of encouragement, hey, is that from God or is that from Satan? No, that's probably from God. So along the way, I just tell people, keep practicing. It's okay to be wrong.

Jim: Chuck, we gotta close out, and I hate this. We could go on for seven or eight hours hearing all your stories, but this listening audience, the iWork4Him audience, been around for 12 years. They've heard stories of people living out their faith in all kinds of jobs. You can't even imagine it. It's thousands of people we've interviewed. Every one of them, the focus is how do I make sure my faith is impacting my work? Would you speak a word of encouragement to our listeners today before we go?

Chuck Ripka: I think a lot of times is people say, it's the stories I just told you. And like you said before, there could be many more. I think if you take those stories and say, God - I started reading the Bible and I said, Lord, I want that. I want that. I want that. And I tell people, if you're listening to me, if you want that, just say, that's what I want. I want that in my life.

Take it and chew on it and ask God, okay, God, if you could use Chuck, use me, and just simply start asking. I'm always asking God, I'm always talking. My friends would even say, Chuck, you're talking, asking God so many questions. He hasn't had time to answer us. (laughter) But that's the kind of childlike faith I have because I'm really walking and I'm always asking God questions.

And even when I'm going into meetings like this or going to a lunch or whatever Hey Lord. What do you got? I got nothing. But what do you got? And God shows up so often, but if I get nothing, then I got nothing. And I don't have to worry about it. The pressure's on him. If he wants me to say something, he'll give it to me.

So I just wanna encourage people just to simply dedicate your life, walk it out, and just get ready to be uncomfortable. And if you're willing to do it, and I encourage people, if you want to hear more stories, you can get my book. You have to order it on Amazon. It's called Got Out of the Box.

I didn't even wanna write a book. God tricked me into writing the book even, but I'm so glad he did now because I've got so many calls from so many people saying could you pray for me? They've read the book and they've been encouraged by reading it.

Jim: God Out of the Box on Amazon. Chuck Ripka from Elk River, Minnesota, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today, for sharing just a little teeny bit of what God has been doing in your life. But thank you, Chuck Ripka.

Chuck Ripka: You're welcome. Bless you guys.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him, with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field. But ultimately, iWork4Him.

6/11/25 - 2098: Upgrade to the New Creation Version

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: And we are your hostss, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place, where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: It's amazing to me how God connects us within the body of Christ. Sometimes we meet people at church or a Bible study, or maybe even a business meeting. Our guest today found iWork4Him on the internet and reached out via the contact us page.

Pastor Usman Raza is a marketing and social media expert who leads a church in Pakistan and an online business as well. Usman has become a friend and just last year I spoke to his local congregation about iWork4Him and applying that attitude to business. Usman Raza is here today to share his Jesus story and talk about his ministry to business people in Pakistan and around the world. Brother Usman Raza, welcome to iWork4Him.

Usman Raza: Praise the Lord. Thank you so much, Brother Jim and Sister Martha, for giving me opportunity to share my heart and share my story with everyone on working with you and the audience. And yeah, it's a pleasure. It's a blessing to share my heart with iWork4Him.

The name has really touched me. I was searching some assignment, marketing assignment, on Google and your website popup in my search. So this is how I find you, and it's really attractive name, iWork4Him. And that has been my mission for all of my life and especially in nine years of ministry. It been being a blessing to work for Jesus. And it's more, I would say, living in the kingdom already.

Jim: So Usman, start off, we always start off every show with a new guest talking about your Jesus story. When did you first learn about Jesus?

Usman Raza: Yeah, there's a lot of glimpses. I would say the parts of the full story. But initially it started when my mother was sick and I saw my dad signing a document. And because doctor said please sign the document, we cannot guarantee that your wife will be saved tomorrow after the operation. So I was standing there watching my dad and I was sad, very sad.

Everyone loves their mom, and coming back alone on my bicycle, I was coming back home alone. I was crying, but I know Jesus is there. Every Sunday we go to church, we pray, we read Bible. I know he's there, but I do not have a connection at that time with him.

But when I was in a pain because of the love of mother, I called him. I said, Jesus, I know you are there and only you can save my mom. Would you save my mom? He said to me, I literally hear a voice while cycling. He said, if I save your mom, would you serve me? And I said, I will not only serve you Jesus, but I will do everything you want me to do. And that's how, our relationship started.

Jim: And how old were you then?

Usman Raza: I was almost like 19 years old. And the very next day, my mom was successfully operated by doctors and she saved, she healed. And we were so happy.

And after a month or two, I got busy into my life and forgotten about my commitment with Jesus. And again, now my dad is in ICU. And I am saying, Jesus, one last time. One last time, I'll do, I know I have made commitment with you when my mother was sick, so I know you can forgive me. You are always there. Now, please save my dad as well.

We remember, his kidneys were not functioning correctly. Heart was not functioning. His blood pressure was not stable. He was in the ICU and the doctor saying he's very serious. And I was sitting there, I pray for continually for about like 30 minutes and more. And after that, everything started getting normal.

Blood pressure was normal. Heart was functioning normal. After an hour or two, doctor said to me, it's like miracle. When you reach here, your dad was in a serious condition, but now his stats are normal. So I said if stats are normal, then you should discharge him. And he said, okay, we can discharge him, but it's your responsibility. And I said, yes, we are fine with that. And we take our dad back to home.

And that was second time I made a commitment with Jesus, but again, it happened with me, I got busy back in my life and I never understand Jesus wants to do something with me, with my faith that I already have. Like I have been on like a rollercoaster of belief and unbelief. Sometime I'm in a pain, I'm believing, I'm calling Jesus, but when I'm normal, I'm not seeking him. So that was my start with Jesus.

But when I was separated for 18 months, because my wife and I had a relationship issue and that time I had two girls, now I have five girls, including twins, but I was in a real pain. And I was working in a prayer center and couple came in a prayer center and said - lot of testimonies people are being healed from cancer, paralyzes, and other diseases and from demons - and that day couple came and they shared their testimony that after six years, Jesus has restored us and the kids were happy, husband and wife were so much happy that Jesus has restored them after six years.

And I was watching and I was questioning in my spirit, really? Jesus can restore couple after six years? And I was questioning the Holy Spirit, what is wrong with me and my wife? Why she's not listening to anybody? Not my dad, not her dad, not me. And crying back, from a prayer center, tears in my eyes, I question again, Jesus, what is wrong here? And he said to me, you are not praying with your full heart. You are lying to me. You don't want her back.

Tears, you know, increases. I was shocked. Like what Jesus is saying to me, could it be real? And at that day, I was bent on my knees, first time. And I asked for the final forgiveness, and that was like born again transformation experience for me. And I said, Lord, I'm sorry. Yes, I have been lying to you, but please forgive me. I want her back, and I will do as I had committed with you many years ago, that I will serve you, save my mom. And then I said, save my dad. I'll serve you.

So that was, how I was transformed. And he said to me, you are not praying with your full heart. And I said, yes, I am praying right now with my full heart. I want her back. And for 18 months she was not listening to anybody. The miracle happened. The very next day, she herself called me and said, Usman, I want to meet you. And I was shocked. How did that happen?

Jim: And what's cool is we're gonna hear the rest of the story and what God's been doing with Usman and Asma in their neighborhood and their local congregation. And really, there's such a great example. All of us, when we can allow our faith to activate and impact those people within our sphere of influence, and sometimes it takes extra courage and support to be strong and courageous.

As business leaders and workers, the US Christian Chamber of Commerce serves as a backbone of support for us. The US Christian Chamber connects faith driven leaders through powerful events, relationships, and resources. We encourage everyone listening to join the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, where business and faith thrive together, uschristianchamber.com.

Martha: I have to say, Jim, about what you just said. It may seem funny that we're doing an interview with someone from another part of the world and we're talking about the US Christian Chamber, but there's actually an international Christian Chamber of Commerce as well that the US Christian Chamber is connected to. I just wanna point that out because it's an international aspect.

Jim: But Usman, you also have a business in the United States online. You too, could join the US Christian Chamber online at uschristianchamber.com.

Martha: That would be so good. So Usman, God did some amazing things in your life to get your attention, and much like many of us , it can take multiple things to get our attention. But through your testimony, you and your beautiful wife Asma are now at a place now where you're leading a local congregation in your city. So tell our audience about your church and how you're touching the people in your neighborhood there.

Usman Raza: A lot of things are happening here, every single day. It being like, as I already said, it's being my experience of living in a kingdom of God already. The kingdom of God will come, but we are already, wherever two or three together, he is in the midst of them. And yes, everywhere I go, I experience that Holy Spirit is not leaving me. We are like Temple of God, as scriptures told us, that we are the temple of God. Me and Asma being like, not just, working as a husband and wife.

One day I was full of anger, frustrated, and I was about to speak with her. It was the beginning of the ministry, and, I just approach her and Holy Spirit intervene and said to me, Usman, wait a minute. You claim that you are dead on cross as a believer. Where that anger is coming from? This is not you. And be careful how you treat her now, because she is not just your wife, she is my daughter. And be very careful how you handle her because this will put you in trouble.

I was shocked. All my anger, my temperament, was go back to zero and normal. And I said, I'm sorry, Lord. And that is how He has been speaking with me, with Asma and with everyday talk, with everyday examples. People came into our church, they don't even, especially the strangers, they don't know us. We don't know them. And the moment they enter into our house church, because we run house church, this is not just the church building, but our home as well. So Jesus said, my home is a house of prayer. So my house is a house of prayer. So when they enter into the territory of our house, they are reporting that they are being healed.

And we were shocked. This is something that Holy Spirit can do and yes, he can do even before you pass the prayer request. Even before you met to pastor. Even before you claim I need healing. He knows before you ask, he's your father. And that is something I experience in Second Adam Church personally, with our own eyes, and a lot of other things.

If I start sharing the conversation, the testimonials, the teaching, and everything that is being done by God in our church, it will take me like a whole night. But I can say like in a few words, we are really experiencing a second Adam, the new Adam in our life. Everything is changed. You are watching a new Usman. The version that I call myself, I get updated, my version of the human being version or a new creation version every single day. I'm not, you know, who I was yesterday, so it's being transformed every single day and this is how it's related to iWork4Him, 24 hours, seven days of a week. So it's being an honor and privilege to have Jesus, second Adam, in our church, and in our life.

Jim: You talking about working 24/7 and how iWork4Him is really a testimony of faith. It really is a statement of faith. You run an online business. Not only do you lead a local body of Christ, but you run an online business called Christianmarketingexperts.com. Tell us about how you see that business as a ministry.

Usman Raza: Yeah again, I was about to pass a prayer request to my pastor, and the moment I said, can you pray for me because I want a way of living where I not only serve Jesus, but also earn a living for my kids? I remember the moment I passed him the prayer request after I left the prayer center, got back to home, open my laptop.

I was working as a freelancer. I landed my very first client from the state of Arizona, Phoenix. And he has hired me on freelancer, and he has trained me literally for everything I am today in the world of business. He was 10 years younger than me and that client was amazing.

But during that journey we came across a company, a marketing company. I would not want to mention the name of that company, but that company was literally lying to clients just to make them client. And me and my business partner were working together. She was a English writer. I was a SEO guy, digital marketing expert. And we spoken together and said, they are lying to dentists.

They were working for dentists, and they were lying. The same town, same city, they are claiming two dentists, even three sometime, that we can rank you on the first page of Google, on the first position of Google. How it's possible? They don't own Google. They cannot present everyone on the first page of Google, or even on the top three results. They cannot guarantee that. And they were giving a guarantee, and they were promising, and dentists were paying them, and that was the whole lie.

We feel like we should not work for that type of working environment where we have to compromise our faith or lie to anybody to earn a living. So we decided like we should leave this company and start a faith-based or Christian company, where we don't have to lie or which presents the God first, Jesus first. And then we ultimately get the things that we need from that company. So this is how the vision build up in our mind. And then we started back in 2016, the Christian Marketing Expert.

Martha: That's awesome. I think a lot of people that are listening, Usman, have had a similar experience where they have seen business done wrong and they know that it's wrong, but they don't always know what to do. And so that's one of the reasons we have iWork4Him, is to just help expose people to different stories that might give them the courage to say, you know what? I need to do something differently because I'm doing it the world's way and not Jesus's way.

So tell us a little bit more about how faith in Jesus has really interacted with running your business. Like how does your faith impact the work that you're doing on a day-to-day basis?

Usman Raza: Yeah it's not only impacting me, but impacting everywhere. The coworkers, my business partner, the clients because now we are getting a faith-based clients, Christian clients. Most of my clients are very mature, full of wisdom, over the age of 60. And one of my daughters were laughing with me, dad, why your every client is too old? I said because God wants me to learn the godly wisdom and the experiences, and everything they had in their life with Jesus, they can share with me because when they hire me as a marketer, they definitely want to share their story and their background, why they started the business, why they wrote the book, or whatever they're doing, actually, they are doing it for Jesus.

And now I come into contact with them, and they hired me and they will definitely share that wisdom with me. So I am growing. As I mentioned, every single day I'm learning a new thing from my client and from my business partner. And I have also jumped up from the deception of denomination and from a religious spirit. And people, where they want to follow their specific set of faith or religion or a pastor or a bishop or a father or whoever they call those leaders, actually, I have found that we do need more - I would not say that we don't need more churches.

Because that was the wish of Moses written in the Old Testament, that he wanted to see every man of God as a prophet. So there is nothing wrong building more churches, but actually there is something wrong in the root. The problem with the root is like the real leaders are not there. And the system that Jesus has in his mind, the father has in mind actually, then when he sent Jesus, people, the believers and the leaders, went into the wrong path and they are not understanding the intention of God before they execute the scriptures or they take action on the word of God.

So what does it mean by that is that the wrong philosophy of this world or the wrong doctrines, the wrong teaching of leaders has done so much damage to the average believer and everyone, and even to the non-believer, whoever want to come and listen to Jesus. So it's very complex for believer, for new believer or for the non-believer to know Jesus, to understand who real Jesus is. And I think the workplace, the workplace is the best place where we can start conversation with the normal day activity.

If somebody is asking you for anything in their in their communication with you, you can share about your value, about the attribute that Jesus want you to reflect through your action. So I have observed even working with non-Christian people, because we live in Pakistan, Muslim country, we come across non-Christian people every single day. And they, many people said to me like, we haven't ever seen employer or a manager, you have been so kind.

And I said, this is not my kindness. This is who Jesus is actually. And this is who Christianity is actually. This is not something I am doing. Because I remember even my dad said to me, you got some sort of superpowers in your body. And I said, no, this is not superpower, of my superpower. This is the power of Jesus.

Martha: Yeah.

Usman Raza: And my daughters are working with me, and I always say this to them like you are the temple of God. And remember, if you are building like Salt of Heaven or Respond Digital Media or Christian Marketing Expert, whatever websites you are working, they are not the representation of Jesus Christ. You are the representation. You are the one who are leading in those websites or in those organizations.

So remember always, follow the truth and always follow the scriptures and the teaching and those teachings must be a reflection in your everyday walk. And if you are not, if you are not able to show Jesus through your actions, then you are deceiving yourself.

Martha: Yeah.

Usman Raza: There is nothing meaningful.

Martha: It's funny because that really is a great segue into what I was just going to say next because the opposite is true. We're supposed to reflect Jesus Christ in our lives, but sometimes we have adversity in our work that is not a good reflection of Jesus.

And one example of how our faith really can impact our work is when things go wrong with our computers, what is that first thing that comes out of your mouth? How do you act? What is your response? Are they Christlike responses?

And that's when I think about SaferNet.com. They protect our computers, so we're able to have peace of mind that everything is being watched and filtered for our protection, and we don't run into that adversity that can be so frustrating. Their antivirus programs, their VPN, and their web filters are working behind the scenes to keep the bad guys out. This is a proactive way to keep everything in check and allow your faith to impact your work. Go to SaferNet.com.

Jim: Usman, before we go today, I want one last question. How is prayer a regular part of your business?

Usman Raza: Very good question, brother Jim, thank you for asking. It's the foundation of our faith, and as I had already shared, like prayer has been a key and we normally, a majority of believers and Christians pray only when they are in trouble or in a need of talk with God. But I have understanding in the nine years of the ministry and the business, almost both have been running like twins. God given me the vision of ministry, God given me the vision of business. So at the same time, it's like my twin babies, I was sharing like, and God has given me twin blessing. The spirit is same, but gifts are different. We all have different gifts. So the prayer is a key thing to us, every single day.

And I remember on the day of resurrection Celebration last year, I was loaded with lot of topics and I was facing hard time like, which topic I should preach on the day of resurrection? It's important day, and every year it's important and every day we have to share the power of resurrection of Jesus through our life.

So I was questioning. I wake up, normally I start my prayer on my bed. I am not in a like active mode. I am still sleeping. My body is in a normal, relaxed mode, but my eyes are open and I'm praying. I start praying the moment my eyes are open, again, I start praying to Jesus.

So I was praying and he spoke to me. He said to me, I am your king and you are my kingdom. Prayer is not just a one side communication, it's a both, two way communication, right? We just normally, we pray and ask and praise God and do you know, a lot of things in prayer. But what I do now, I listen more instead of speaking to Jesus more.

I listen more what he has for me every single day, is more important for me. So I was looking for that topic. And he said to me, I am your king and you are my kingdom. Wherever the king is, the kingdom is there. And he said to me, preach on that on the resurrection day. I am their king and they're my kingdom.

And this is not just every single day when we've met to our client in the business meeting. Whether, whatever, even though my business partner told me that it's not legal in the United States to ask people about their faith, especially when you had a attorney, student attorney or interview, and you call somebody, you, you can ask their name and other details, but never ask them what faith they believe in and especially when client are - we know whatever denomination or background they have, we start with prayer. Whether he's a bishop, he's a pastor, or he is a whatever faith or denomination he has.

So we start with the prayer. And from the prayer we feel like we are handing over to Holy Spirit whatever he has, as with that connection. And that's being my experience, lead to a fruitfulness of our communication and our efforts working together. And that makes us like we are really not just doing a business or earning a profit, but actually helping people to know God better, and also serving their divine given purpose.

Jim: Yeah. We call that here in the United States, a biznistry.

Martha: Business and ministry together. BIznistry.

Jim: That's right. Usman Raza, there's so much we could talk about. We're so grateful for you taking some time, really in the middle of the night, from Pakistan to talk with us. We're so grateful. We're so grateful for you and Asma and how you wanted to take iWork4Him to your local community, and we're grateful to partner with you as you also work on our social media for iWork4Him. Thank you so much for being with us today on iWork4Him.

Usman Raza: Same here. Brother Jim and Sister Martha. Pleasure to have share my heart and it's felt so light and I'm thankful that you had shared that opportunity with me so I can share my heart with more people in the United States and worldwide. And thank you so much.

Jim: Yeah, you bet. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him!

6/4/25 - 2097: Turning Truth into a Production

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration in the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: When you were growing up, did you think that being a movie producer was all glamor? Then as we've grown up, we've seen the movie producing is a dog eat dog world, and the only movie producers that stand a chance to have to live in Hollywood would be those ones not wearing Milkbone underwear.

Oh, that was a - I didn't even write that, but that's a whole Cheers reference there. If you're gonna produce movies, you think the only place to do that is in Hollywood. And if you're gonna do that, you have to presumably check your Christian faith and values at the door. That's not the way it's supposed to be.

Drew Martin is different. He's become a producer without all those preconceived notions. Not in Hollywood, but in Canada, eh? Drew's heart and passion for Jesus-centered Truth to be revealed through riveting video is why Drew Martin is here today. Executive producer and so much more. Drew Martin, welcome to iWork for him.

Drew Martin: Thanks. It's awesome to be here, brother. Sister. Thanks for having me.

Jim: We are gonna cover your whole movie producing story, but before we get into that, we want to hear your Jesus story.

Drew Martin: Yeah, that's my best story. My mom prayed for me like from before I was born that I'd know Jesus. And so as young as I can remember, I remember loving Jesus. I remember even one time my brother, I have a little brother. He is one, one year older than me or one year younger than me. And he works in the movie industry too, actually, in Toronto. But he decided he wanted to get married to the little girl across the lane.

So I thought, no problem buddy. I'll do the ceremony. I was like, I think he was six, I was seven. So I had to ran into the house. Mom, I need a Bible. I need a Bible. And so not that I could read or anything, but it was needed, part of the deal. So in any event, I went out there and no bride, but the kids were there and I was like, Byron, where's Suzy? Where's Suzy?

He goes, I dunno. And he starts crying. I was like, it's okay, buddy. It's okay. We'll find her. And I'm like, mom, what's going on? And she goes maybe Susie doesn't wanna get married yet. And I was like, what? How is that possible? And she goes, you gotta let it go. And so anyway, so I never did end up marrying anybody, in all my life. But I knew the Lord.

And I remember I was going to a Baptist church and I remember some guy was coming in and preaching and he was doing an altar call and I was like, so should I do this, Lord? And he goes, if you like to. I already knew. And yeah. And then I was going to non-denominational, what you could call like a really hopping, praise and worship and great teaching, preaching church. And they talked about the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

And I was like, if it's from you, God, I want it. So I got baptized in the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues. I'd already been baptized in water in the Baptist church of course. And so I received all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. And so I love the Lord God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Martha: Amen. You've had such a spiritual journey in your life. I'm curious how you decided to get into film production for your career.

Drew Martin: From a young age I was, I had a couple of people in my life that were very influential. One was my music teacher in elementary school and she was actually had gotten involved with the local community talent show.

And she said, okay, so what are you kids gonna do? You wanna sing, you want to, what do you wanna do? And so she had heard me sing in the class or whatever, and she said, I think you should be in this. And I said, oh, okay. And so the first year I did, Let's Go Fly a Kite. And then the next year I think I did what was it?

Can't remember now. In any event, then my friend and I one year did something where I was the ventriloquist and he was the dummy that sat on my knee. That was really good. Went to the city finals.

Jim: Awesome. There you go. How big was the city?

Drew Martin: Edmonton was like, like maybe 300,000 at that time.

Jim: Oh, it was pretty sugnificant. So we're talking Edmonton, Alberta, Canada?

Drew Martin: Yeah. And so then, you know from there I got involved. One of my other teachers, he decided, like I was going to the school, I'd been going to the elementary, junior high school, became the first academic junior high school.

So they weren't doing any option classes, right? Woodworking or whatever, mechanics or that kind of thing. And certainly not drama, but my teacher, who was my English teacher, who was also my art teacher, really super talented guy, George Miller was his name, a little Irishman, he's very funny, but very passionate.

And so he secretly taught us drama. So that's where I had my first exposure to drama. And then yeah, just then being in school plays and I went on to be involved at a high school level and was started acting there. And then I had a mobile disco company when disco was cool. I dunno if it's cool anymore.

Jim: It might, it's on the way back it. I've been seeing videos on YouTube, Kool and the Gang videos, but kids that are 20 doing the dancing. So I think discos coming back.

Maybe not but there's so many paths that can be taken in film and in video, and it seems you've taken almost all of them, which has been your favorite? TV, news, movies - what's been your favorite?

Drew Martin: Yeah, I went to a radio and television arts - a place came called Nate here, and I graduated with honors. And before I was done, I really made a determination that I was gonna, I was going to make friends with my teacher who was a young guy who was doing work in Vancouver.

And the first thing I did was, I got involved with a music video with Tragically Hip. I don't know, that was the first video they ever did.

Jim: It may not have made it south of the border.

Drew Martin: Yeah. I don't know. Tragically Hip, I think they did. Maybe you're just dating yourself. (laughter) outta the flow of the, the music scene.

But in any event, so then I got offered, they had a placement program in the school. And before I was finished, my Christian writing teacher said to me, Drew, if you're looking for a placement, I know CTV, which was one of the national networks, they're looking for someone to, to be a writer, producer in the commercial department.

So you should go over there. And I said, oh, okay. And she gave me the woman's phone number. I called, I went in, got the job. So I was getting full salary as a writer, producer making commercials, which was so much fun. And 'cause I was a writer, I loved writing. And so that was really cool.

Jim: But the question was, what was your favorite? 'Cause you've done so much. Your resume has it all. You've done tv, you've done news, you've done commercials, you've done movies. Which is your favorite?

Drew Martin: I think what I'm doing now is, it was always my favorite. At the time I felt so blessed and I loved doing what I was doing and I learned lots and I was so blessed to have wonderful people I worked with. But now, one of the things I've learned is that the Lord, where I would do things by my own strength or my own power, now really, I follow the Lord. And he goes, I want to do this.

And so I'm going, okay. 'cause the Bible says like, when he gives you a word, he will watch over it to perform it. It's not about my performance or my effort 'cause he doesn't want my flesh involved. He just, he wants to be glorified in the earth and so he should be. And so now I just go, okay God, what do you want to do?

And he goes, I wanna do this film about abortion called Unthinkable. And I was like, okay, God. And so did that film and I watched that film. I was a writer, director, producer, executive producer. And I wept when I saw that film. That he did. And I was like, God, this is so good. 'cause I just felt the anointing of the Holy Spirit all over it because he was gonna speak the truth in love over the nations as it related to abortion.

He needed to do that, not me. What did I have to say that was life changing? Nothing except that he would be on it and he would open the eyes of people's understanding.

Jim: You were stewarding that story though, Drew, and that's what's so powerful.

Martha: So I love that you're just walking us a little bit through the scene that God has used many different experiences in your life, many different paths in order to get you to where you are today with the experiences that you have and allowing him to direct your path.

And I think there's a lot of people that different paths in their lives can, take their career in lots of different ways, but no matter what path we take, it is critical that as Christ followers, we understand how to incorporate our faith in our work. And one way that can be challenging or encouraging for us in this area is to be a part of the US Christian Chamber of Commerce. You can join other like-minded believers to connect through powerful events, relationships, and resources. All of that is there for you when you join the US Christian Chamber of commerce at uschristianchamber.com.

Jim: And they even let people in from Canada, eh? (laughter) yeah. Seriously. Talk about a great avenue to let people know what's going on!

You've got some great movies. You know what Drew, what I think is interesting is that Martha and I watch a lot of streaming video whenever we've got time. They're always old series. And the series we've loved the most have all been produced in Canada because they tend to be, they tend to be cleaner - less sex, less vulgarity. Just, it's unbelievable.

I don't know what it is about your film industry up there. I know it's, you're even, you're deeper than that. But, I love that in Canada, not only the background's also prettier, but the content needs to be good. But over the last 10 years, Drew, you and your sons, I'm guessing they're your sons, they all have the same last name. They're on their website. They look younger than you. I figured they were. Your sons have run motion pictures and you've run a motion pictures production studio called Mighty Motion Pictures. How did Mighty Motion Pictures get started?

Drew Martin: I was working, I had a company called the Idea Factory first. And that was really cool because I was working at West Edmonton Mall as a construction worker and part of my job was to walk the mall, to do security. And I would praise the Lord all night long. And it was a big cavernous thing, so it was pretty fun.

And then I would have to clean the place where the trailers, where the construction workers worked. And I'd be singing and I was thinking about how earlier in the day my friends were talking about they love video games. And I was like, God, why is it that, that we can't get the first video game, as Christians? Like why don't, why are we always following the world?

And I was in the bathroom at the time, cleaning the bathroom, and I was musing in this, and I was talking to Jesus, and the spirit of God so entered the room that I fell to my knees and I looked down and there were Jesus' feet. And he said, then you'll want to come to Heaven because heaven is an idea factory. And so that's why I named my first company the Idea Factory. And so then I ended up leaving the Idea Factory to a friend of mine that I've known since 0 7 and we still work together today. But that's when I started Mighty Motion Pictures.

And really, my brother who works in Toronto is a very successful producer, production manager, mostly in feature length films and, 'cause there's lots of production in Toronto, and my son Joses, who's my eldest son, went to school in Calgary to take film production under, they're all Christians.

And so Joses came to work with me and he did a film called Hush about the untold health risks of abortion, which won a number of international awards. And then he we also did a series together called The Awakers about indigenous people who have a disability but are involved in the arts, and many of them are Christians.

And then Joses went to work with his brother Byron, who has a master's of musical theater and they're running something called the Grindstone Theater here. And it started out with improvised comedy. But improvising a musical is what they do every Friday night. And yeah.

Jim: That, I'd like to see, we're gonna come visit you and see that some Friday night.

Drew Martin: Totally got to, I'll get you free seats. And yeah, so what was cool about that is that all my kids, my daughter has a master's of photography at a Ryerson and her husband is a virtuoso piano player. And so everybody's an artist. And the other day my boys said something really cool to me.

They said, dad, we want to thank you for two things. I wanna thank you for teaching us how to dream. And the other thing you taught us is how to work incredibly hard, because they're so frustrated currently with people that are working in their organization that are really not wanting to work. They don't have a passion and they don't have a determination and they expect to be paid exceptionally well.

Then they just walk away, and they don't stay there for extra hours 'cause they love doing what they're able to do. And so it's definitely a different culture.

Martha: It is. But I love the first thing that you just said that you know about encouraging them to dream big and to do big things. And you just touched a little bit on some of the projects that you've been working on and they're pretty cutting edge. And I'm curious when you are presenting the truth of some pretty hard things, how are those received by the watchers? The audience?

Drew Martin: Exceptionally well because most of the, we understand who our audience is for pro-life films, which is pro-life groups and churches and primarily, and unfortunately in Canada, when we try to get a theatrical license for those films, they're very liberal and so they don't want those kinds of films to go out to a general audience. And same thing in Canada and the United States, it's very difficult.

But especially when these are documentaries too. Although I've worked in every genre, including live action and drama as well as concerts and children's, every how to programming. And like tons of networks in the United States and Canada. So I found that a lot of what we're doing goes of course Christian stations in Canada and the United States are open to what we're presenting. But we've also formed Mighty Distributors so that we can distribute.

Jim: Lemme interrupt you 'cause I really want - so the truth, when somebody you wouldn't expect to hear this movie or see this movie gets to see it and they're exposed to the truth, how do they receive it? Because there are people that get exposed to your work like your latest movies, including fathers, which is coming up.

We're gonna talk about that in a minute. How do they receive it when they hear the truth that they have been lied to about all their lives?

Drew Martin: I've been super blessed by people, letters and people who are hostsing screenings and they're just, wow. This was super powerful. And the film uncovers the evils of abortion, particularly as it relates to Planned Parenthood. But in the end, it's a call to hope because it's the notion, it's a call to love radically, of the mercy and grace of God, because it's only the love of God that changes things.

It's the resurrection power of Jesus Christ. And so that's really, in looking at the horrors of that and the decisions that people are making, it's actually the love of God. And so they're like, wow, this is so powerful. This is so amazing. And so then they wanna see fathers and then, or I'm working on another project about euthanasia. 'Cause Canada is the world leader in euthanasia, which is insane.

And of course there's this understanding that we're not fighting against flesh and blood, we're fighting against principalities, a spirit of death. And then the other thing we're fighting against is actually the, that confusion, gender confusion, but also the tearing apart of family values, of Christian values, particularly as it relates to men and women and the divorce rate, which is the same in the church as it is outside the church. And actually I really wanna do a documentary called Why Divorce.

Jim: I wanna be involved in it. And I've got a title for you: Get the Hell Outta Your Marriage. Yeah, I'll let you, we I'll license that to you. I already have the website.

Alright. Okay. So the opposition, you've talked about some of the opposition from film industries and that kind of thing, that stuff's expected. They don't want the truth to come out. They work so hard to lie to the entire world about abortion. Have all your films been abortion centered?

Drew Martin: No. No. We did films about all kinds of different subjects really. And as I said, I've done work with children and that kind of thing. Sewing, cooking, whatever, all kinds of stuff. Not necessarily Christian.

Jim: But the cutting edge ones that you're doing, so when you experience opposition, how are you dealing with it? What are you doing with that opposition? Is it an encourager? Is that like a light, your rocket engines kind of thing? Or does it get you depressed? How do you deal with the, with that opposition?

Drew Martin: The opposition isn't with me personally, in terms of what I do. It's really as it relates to the subjects. The subjects that we're dealing with, right? And so even for us, like we're working on another film with a friend of mine called Porn Free, which not only talks about pornography, but it is the root of also prostitution and then even child trafficking, right? Same spirit, right? It's being released and then flows down.

And so those kind of shows, it's not just they come from a Christian foundation perspective, but what's interesting is that people now, when they see those things happening, they feel helpless. That's a great time to come in with what God's perspective is like. Why does it need to be different and how can it be different?

Jim: When we're speaking of opposition, there are cyber criminals out there that make it their business to steal other people's information and ultimately destroy a lot of people's work in the process. That's why we rely on SaferNet to protect all of our devices so we can focus on the calling God has for us that iWork4Him and at home.

We may not be able to keep all opposition at bay, but we can be proactive and protect the things that we're able to. SaferNet.com is the place to go to find all the details about their VPN, Virus Protection, web filters, and so much more. Tell 'em iWork4Him sent you. That's SaferNet.com.

Drew, you're working on some big projects right now and you're looking for some partners in those projects. Tell us about the project you're working on right now. Tell us about this Father project and what it's all about.

Drew Martin: Yeah, it's really a trumpet call. It's a Joel 2 trumpet call for men to come to the battle. Men have such an important and obvious role in making children, but they have reneged on and departed from their responsibilities as dads. And as those who basically have sex with women and then, but not taking the responsibility of loving women there. And so they walk away from their responsibility as it relates to one, those women, but those children. And not only that, not only do they walk away, oftentimes they walk women into abortion clinics.

The film Fathers is really the call from the Lord to, for men to be men. And as it relates to making and protecting children. And standing up as it relates to obviously abortion and the killing of children.

Jim: And that's one of those subjects when we were in Tampa Bay, and actually one of the local pregnancy centers had recognized this. And then we're ministering to men, not just the women, but when it's one of those subjects that, when you look at the national conversation is if you don't have a uterus, don't bother commenting. You're outta the conversation. You are looking for people to join you in this project to get it out there.

What does that look like? Is that money you're looking for? You need actors? You need documentary? What are you looking for this project?

Drew Martin: Typically any one of our projects, they're, independently invested upon. So we sell shares in our in the project to investors at $50,000 each, and that actually gives us the money that it takes to do the film and also something of the distribution as well, which is so important. Yeah. And what's awesome is, particularly in this case, where there's men have the opportunity now to put - where man's treasure is his hard is also.

And so to be able to put finances into this. But what's really cool is that God, it's not just, it's not just a gift. It's an opportunity to be engaged, involved in prayer and from the foundation of who they are as men and women who work and as a family come together and put money into it.

But there's also like the, because we have an absolute wonderful distribution plan with an audience that's waiting out there for this film, then they'll, there's an opportunity for them to make money and actually even put money into other projects like this. Whether it's with Mighty Motion pictures or the kingdom. Nevertheless it's an incredible way to make some kingdom finances and get a word of life out there. Yeah, so they can just go to my website, www mighty motion pictures.com. But my email is dMartin@mightymotionpictures.com.

Martha: Awesome. And I'll put that in the show notes for people so that they have that accessible to them. So they don't have to remember it right now as they're listening. But listeners, you heard that you can, email and ask more questions to get involved with Drew.

Jim: Drew, how do, if somebody wants to just stream your movies, they wanna watch 'em, is there a place where they can go and pay X amount of dollars to just watch a movie in their living room?

Drew Martin: Part of what we started setting up with Mighty Distributors is where people can do that. But now it's designed actually for screenings. So if they wanted to screen, to host it in their church, then we'd set that up. But oftentimes when I do a show, I pre-sell the concept to a broadcast or broadcasters. It's there that they can watch what we're doing.

Jim: We encourage you all to get out to Mighty Motion pictures.com. Check out the work that Drew's been doing. Drew, we love hearing your story. Love hearing the excitement of a Christ follower producing films that are presenting truth.

It's kinda like one of those Al Gore movies. It's an inconvenient truth, isn't it? An Inconvenient Truth, like Al Gore, little Al Gore moment right there. Drew, thanks so much for bringing your story. We love to hear your excitement driven by the Holy Spirit as you produce these films.

Pray super big success on this Father film that's coming out, that you can get the money you need to get it produced. And I love - one day we need to come on location there to Canada, eh, and capture some of those faith stories up there in your part of the woods. But Drew Martin, thanks so much for being on iWork4Him today.

Drew Martin: Thanks to you guys. Love you. Bless you.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

5/28/25 - 2096: An Unexpected Path to Leadership

Jim: [00:00:00] You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Seven years ago, we spent a week in Lubbock, Texas, at the headquarters for Betenbough Homes and the Ministry of Kingdom at Work. During that week, we interviewed people from throughout the organization. Betenbough Homes is a kingdom focused organization where employees, vendors, and customers all feel the love of God through their transactions of building first time buyer homes in the oil fields of Texas.

One of those interviews seven years ago was with Jeanna Roach. At that time, Jeanna was a vice president of sales and marketing. We follow up today with Jeanna, who's now the CEO of Betenbough Homes and five other companies. No pressure. But she's tasked with following the footsteps of the late Rick Betenbough as she guides Betenbough Homes into the fourth [00:01:00] decade of the 21st century.

Jeanna, welcome back to iWork4Him.

Jeanna Roach: Thank y'all so much for having me. I'll never forget those interviews years ago, so it's a blessing to be back.

Jim: Thank you. We're glad we didn't scare you off. At least I'm glad I didn't scare you off. (laughter)Jeanna, when we last left you seven years ago, God was moving in your life miraculously. What have you seen God do in your life personally these last seven years?

Jeanna Roach: Wow. I feel like, he was already working so much. I've worked at Betenbough Home since 2006 and that's a whole story in itself, of course, how God just met me here in the middle of the marketplace. And about seven years ago my husband, he was listening to our interview, and that was part of our story is, he said he just felt something different.

He could hear me and my friend and still teammate to this day, Cal. We've worked together now for almost 20 years, and he could just feel the love of Christ in that. And the Lord was just working on him [00:02:00] in a really big way and grabbed a hold of him. And within a month he had surrendered his life to the Lord, which was a 12 year prayer for me.

And anybody that I knew in my small group here at the office, people were praying for a long time. 'Cause I had come to faith here over those 12 years, and so now all of a sudden Andrew is, so everything and our lives changed. Everything. Our marriage was immediately better. He was a better dad. Our love for each other just grew in a way that I actually couldn't even imagine.

I already loved him so much, but seeing this new flourishing version just brought this new freedom and release to me, I feel like, and just showed me some miracles that, even though I was in the midst of it and I believe God was gonna do something 'cause he spoke to me about it through a vision, there were just still moments of doubt that would creep in.

And I would think, am I being a good witness? Today, man Lord, I messed up. I'm so sorry. And God was still working in the midst of all [00:03:00] of that. And our daughter and him were baptized together. I got baptized with them as well, and we've just seen everything flourish since then.

I feel like a contentment came over me in a way that I had been praying for years. I'm an achiever, a performer. That's how I've been my entire life, and those are good things about me when I don't have self ambition, when I have holy ambition. So I've had a rocky road though in those seven years, you should know.

I went from VP of Sales and marketing and became a director of just marketing. And that was a moment really, again, of surrender and listening to the Lord. It was a hard moment for me. It meant a large demotion. My paycheck was cut in probably half, and so there was just a lot of obedience that had to be done in that moment.

God was working on me a lot. And my humility, he was taking me to new depths with him in that moment. But it was the first time ever that Andrew and I together could [00:04:00] pray about a decision. I basically had to say, Hey, do you want us remain on the sales side of Betenbough Homes? Or do I wanna become this marketing director and serve marketing for all of the businesses that we now had?

Although that would mean a demotion for me, a title change. And, I woke up that day and I told Andrew after a Friday meeting with the whole board of directors on Saturday morning, I had all of these ideas for marketing and I said, Andrew, I think I'm supposed to take the marketing director role.

And immediately he said, man, the Lord just told me right choice. And even just that moment for us, our marriage, just the unity that we have had since has blessed everything in my life. And so I began that journey and knew that God was telling me, Jeanna, you have to walk this out and everybody's watching.

When you are in the top leadership of a company and you get a demotion, people wanna know how that's gonna go. And do you believe in me? Do you believe in these things that I'm offering you? 'Cause he told me it'll [00:05:00] look like less in the world, but it will be much more in the kingdom. And it wasn't just more, it was much more.

And I thought, what is he talking about? Okay Lord, I'm just gonna trust that. And man, I will tell you, everything became much more - my marriage, my relationship with my kids. There was so much that God wanted to do in me before I could ever have an opportunity to step into a role like this. So yeah, everything has changed.

He's, we now, my husband and I, teach on how to hear from the Holy Spirit, how to hear from God. These are dreams. Every time he talks, I just cry and weep because of the goodness and favor of God, and so I don't have to ever question if God is good or if he speaks to his people, and if he is good on his promises, because I get to see it every day in Andrew.

Martha: There's so much there to unpack and I love that you shared very vulnerably that doesn't mean that the blessings are always measured in the world's [00:06:00] eyes as being more whatever that is, that we all seem to be striving for, but rather in the kingdom. So Jeanna, I'm gonna just tell our listeners right now that I'm gonna put the links to our past interviews with you so they can hear some of the progression because we actually did an interview with your husband after he got saved.

You guys went on a mission trip. There's so much there that God has done, but I love to hear that your long, what felt like long prayers, God answered even though there's been hard in the midst of it. So let's talk about your work journey then, as a result. You've, like you, you already alluded to, there were some changes, some shifts that probably did not make sense to a lot of people in the midst of it. But where is it that you find yourself today and what has God done through all of that?

Jeanna Roach: I feel a little bit like, I'm like Joseph, where I came in pretty prideful. [00:07:00] And it's like God had to, he just was constantly teaching me things. I had a 9 1 1 conversation here with Rick Betenbough maybe that was about 2012. And for us, in our culture, a 9 1 1 means this is an emergency. And you've been acting this way. A behavior's been happening this way, or your work is going this way and tomorrow it has to 180 change.

Martha: Oh, wow.

Jeanna Roach: And that really began this journey for me of really being introspective and reflecting on what parts did I own and learning to take responsibility. The first part of the Bible is all about taking responsibility. And so I had to learn those things. And I think through the work journey, it's just such an opportunity to hear from God, to learn things about him and how he created you and what he's calling you to.

And I think, there were moments like even before my demotion, I said out loud to all of our leaders, which at the time I think was about 50 leaders on our management team, and I said, Hey, [00:08:00]look. Your value is not connected to your title or your pay. God sees you as valuable no matter what. Every job is important. And so then guess what I got to do? I got to ask myself, did I believe that? Because I said that before I got the demotion. And I did believe it. And okay, now I have to walk through that and walk that out.

And so God was teaching us so many things along the way, and then the minute I would really lean into him, listen to him, and walk in things and just walk out stuff, becoming the marketing director meant that I had people coming from all these different teams, and we were creating this one centralized team. So it wasn't even just the people that had been under my authority in marketing, it was now new people that I was having to bring this group of about 15 individuals together now to become united and serve every business.

And that is a challenge on its own. If you've ever built a team and then you didn't choose most of them. I [00:09:00] didn't. So now I have to go and I have to bring this group together in a new way. And those were new challenges. I had been here so long that every team, I had somehow been involved in the hiring and development of that group, and my goodness, the things that God taught me during that were so powerful, how to love people really well.

Felt like I was good at that before, but again, I had hand selected those people. So these were new people. I was bringing them together. I was having to rely on the Holy Spirit in a way I'd never had really before. I just hadn't done that in that kind of way, and brought this kind of powerhouse group of people together.

And in the midst of that is when Rick really started calling me into other things. He said, Hey, I want you to come and lead our title company. We had started a title company in 2020. And that was part of my idea was, man, we're closing over a thousand homes. This is something that most of our buyers, they're not even in tune with.

So is this maybe a new business that we could add in [00:10:00] to where we are actually making an impact for the kingdom? Could we add them? And so new people in our organization get to try something different. They get a new challenge, and we get to expand the territory of the kingdom. And that had been an idea for many years, but now that we were at a thousand closings, let's do this.

We had, we knew nothing about title outside of that people had them. We knew what Home Builders know about title, right? Which is not the in and outs. And so we began that and that was had a bit of a challenge. That team needed some new Leadership. And so Rick asked me to take that on and I had just gotten so peaceful with where I was at.

I was experiencing that much more. So then I'm like, do I do this? I don't know if I'm supposed to do this. And prayed about it. Felt like, okay, just try it. And so that's what we did. So I started leading the title company, and I gotta be honest, it was one of the most toxic situations I had ever experienced. So just because we have a purpose, a kingdom purpose, doesn't mean that everything here is rainbows and unicorns.

Jim: I don't [00:11:00] wanna run outta time without you telling the rest of the story. You became a director. Then you became CEO of a title company and now you're CEO of all of the Betenbough companies.

That's a flipping your world right side up if I've ever seen it. But in the middle of that, Rick Betenbough, a great man of God, went to be with the Lord. There was, he was diagnosed, he's gonna die right away with pancreatic cancer and ends up living two years because he gave up ribeyes.

That's what Jeanna is convinced of. I don't know if that's really true (laughter) but Rick Betenbough, an incredible mentor. Rick and Holly Betenbough two incredible people. You now run the companies that you started working for 20 years ago.

Jeanna Roach: Yeah. What a journey. And again, I think it's just that daily submission and just getting really comfortable with who I am and the gifts that God gave me. So he let me take over the title company and help lead that. Along with leadership, everything we do here is teams. So this has never been just me, not ever. It's really about surrounding yourself with people [00:12:00] that fill in those gaps that you had. And that's been everything that Rick has done.

He saw this 20 years ago. He started building and developing leaders, and that's just what we spend our time doing. Full time. So after the title company we were watching, we have a cafe and we have an event center also, and those were in the red, pretty heavily in the red. And so Rick came to me one day - actually, I called him because I felt like the Holy Spirit was ta talking to me through scripture, like he does, telling me that Rick was wanting to ask me to do some things, but he was worried about me.

He didn't wanna ask me to do too much. And the Lord was just telling me to be willing to do whatever he's asking you. And so I called him and he said, okay, let's meet tomorrow. And so he said, Hey, I want you to take over the cafe and the event center, but you're gonna have to give up something. And I'd like for you to give up the marketing team. I'd led marketing for 15 years here at that point. And so he knew that had been [00:13:00] originally my passion.

Like God does, he gives you these new passions, is what he's done for me, and leading business operations and healthy teams has just been, I have been a culture defender and fighter from the beginning. I knew this place was special and I am willing to fight to keep it that way. And I did that. I remember we had a team member and they were like, okay, we're gonna lose less money in 2023. And Rick goes, how about we start making money in December and this was October? And I'm like, yeah, what Rick said.

I grew up with him, he's the one who taught me everything that I knew, him and Ron, his dad. And so that's what we did. And by December, actually, the cafe was in the positive. And it's got like outrageous revenue right now, for our coffee shop.

Jim: That's fantastic.

Jeanna Roach: Everything has turned around. So here I am, the Lord just, he constantly told me I was in training, I'm like Joshua. Joshua was there, Moses was with God, and Joshua was right there next to Moses. And I've been like [00:14:00] that with the Betenbough family, just listening and learning. And when Rick called me on November 13th, he called me of 2023. He said, Jean, he would always call me Jeanna Sue. He said, Jeanna Sue, you got a little bit of dad.

You got a little bit of me and you got a little bit of Holly, and this is why you know God is calling you. He's added these things to you to bring in this next season. And that was the biggest. I cry more about that statement than anything.

Jim: It's amazing. Yeah. You talk about flipping your world upside down. God has done such a amazing work and since we know some of the backstory and to be a even a little piece of that story with you and Andrew, what I love is when God surprises us.

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All right, Jeanna, in this last eight minutes of us talking, and I know we could talk forever, but you're a CEO and you're busy. It's the kingdom culture. If there's one thing we've talked about across the country, it's the kingdom culture of Betenbough Homes, which is now Betenbough Company, these six companies. It's the kingdom culture. I remember the first day we were there and we were sitting waiting for some of these meetings to kick on, and Holly Betenbough walks into the room.

I watched the Holy Spirit (makes a sound) just in this room. There's no better way to explain it, but I saw love in a corporate environment I've never seen before. I saw people loving [00:16:00] on each other that I've never seen before. It was one of those things when Rick and Holly first brought us in there in 18, I said, fine.

You say you guys got this kingdom culture thing down. We wanna interview people from the top to the bottom, and I wanna see if it's real. And they said, okay, whoever you want. And we did, we interviewed people. I don't even remember the names of all the people we interviewed.

Martha: No, but we'll put the show links in there because here's a little backstory, like there was no prepping. It wasn't like, okay, make sure you answer the questions to make us look good or, make sure that, whatever we put some employees on the spot and had an opportunity to say what is it really like here as far as the culture? And you said, you are a culture defender since the beginning, and rightfully so because the culture, in my opinion, is a lot of what has probably brought the success of all of the companies, even through the dips in the valleys and the economy, all the different things.

The bottom line is that, number one, for people that don't [00:17:00] know, your companies are an esop, so the employees have an interest in the company. And so to have a culture that lifts them up and encourages them and lets them know how valued they are, more so than the home they're building, or more so than the sandwich that they're making or whatever the, the product is that they're bringing to the table. That culture has been such a big part of it.

But anyway, so we interviewed these employees and that really set the tone for us to validate and say, yeah, this is real. Listen to what's going on and learn from it. And we've been big cheerleaders of you guys ever since.

Jim: So how are you gonna maintain this culture? You're not Rick Betenbough. You're not Holly Betenbough. And you're not Ron Betenbough, but you've been trained by all three of them, and you've lived in that culture now working 19 years. As a CEO, how are you gonna keep it? How are you gonna perpetuate it? And how are you gonna take it to the next level?

Jeanna Roach: I think for us first is, we just talk about it all the time. We have a kingdom [00:18:00]purpose. Our purpose is a kingdom purpose, to reveal God and his kingdom through our work in the marketplace. So that guides every decision right there. I think a kingdom culture is when there's a flourishing for all. That shalom, that idea of shalom. But it's really, it's, we're in right relationship with God, with one another, with our community, creation.

And so we're constantly running it through those filters. It's not that it's always the best for our people. That's actually not a flourishing for all. It's not that it's always best for the customer. That's also not a flourishing, and so we're trying to look at it from every single area.

Everybody that's in our authority. What does this look like in our community? And so I think by always putting our purpose at the forefront and making decisions with that first filter, that's the way that we do that. And in our culture, any leader, we're gonna ask them to adopt that purpose as their purpose.

Because really, let's be honest, our team, there's five of us total on our board, [00:19:00] including Holly Betenbough. She's an advisory member of our board of directors. For anybody else that would be their C-Suite. That's our group. And together, combined, I don't even know how many years of service we have, probably 60 to 70 years of service here.

And so it's about a team bringing this culture together. We know who we are. We definitely have our kingdom related core values that we talk about incessantly. Anytime we're together, that's what we spend our time talking about. It's very rare that you hear us talk about numbers. Now we wanna talk about numbers 'cause we think stewardship is critical.

And so we're always asking ourselves what does stewardship look like in this moment? How do we balance generosity and stewardship? But for us, generous stewardship is a core value because we think it's a kingdom thing. And so we're living those and talking about 'em and walking them out. And I'll tell you, our team is very accountable to one another.

And I think that is so important. There is nothing that is withheld on our [00:20:00] board. And so sometimes that's a shock to people because we are just honest with one another. And now we honor one another too. I heard one time from Leif Petland, he's an author and speaker, amazing author and speaker, and he said, love looks like honor.

And that is true and we have a culture of honoring one another, but being honest. And so if one of us steps outside of the line of that culture, trust me, your teammate's gonna tell you. And we're just trying to build that into every team. And that's why we're talking about 'em. I'm talking this week.

I don't always get asked to speak to our leaders anymore. 'Cause we have a team, right? We have a hundred managers in our culture that are tasked with adopting this purpose and living it out and loving their people in a really relational way. And so I don't always speak, but I get to this week on Unity. That is, that's a core value of ours.

And so we go and talk to our leaders we say, Hey, what does that look like here? And we're just constantly talking and [00:21:00] teaching, which is what Jesus did, and then empowering them and asking them to take that to the next level.

Martha: I love that you said, we continue to talk about it because God continues to teach us new things all the time, so it can never be old because he is gonna open up another way of looking at some of your core values and things like that.

There are a lot of companies that struggle because they don't have a culture like that, but they may want one and a lot of people, when they're trying to grow their business, use a local chamber of commerce in order to engage and grow their business. Imagine upping that game and becoming a member of the US Christian Chamber of Commerce.

The US Christian Chamber of Commerce likes to say business isn't just business, it is a kingdom calling. And so at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, they unite Christian business leaders to build with excellence, lead with integrity, and advance God's kingdom in the marketplace. This is how We Chamber. Are you in?

You can check 'em out at [00:22:00] uschristianchamber.com.

Jim: And I believe there's a Christian chamber coming to Texas. The Texas Christian Chamber. I know they're working on one in Dallas as well. So check it out online, US christian chamber.com. Jeanna, you're the daughter of the king. A wife. A mom, a CEO of a very large Texas company. 'Cause everything in Texas is big,. How do you keep it all in perspective and properly quote unquote balanced?

Jeanna Roach: Yeah. When I first took this role, because look, I haven't done this well always, honestly, and I feel like a lot of people do this when you are leading and you believe that you are doing ministry work, and this is God's thing. I believe this is God's thing, and I have for many years. Sometimes that becomes the main thing in your life. But he never wants my work to be my priority. And so over the years, he has really helped me to make sure that I'm seeking first the kingdom, which means kingdom priorities.

And which doesn't means Betenbough Companies cannot come before my family. It cannot come before my spouse, and it [00:23:00] cannot become an idol even ahead of him. And so I have set boundaries up pretty early now, especially in a lot of speaking engagements or my travel. I have boundaries around that, how often I will travel, which is once a month.

I won't be gone more than three nights from my kids and my family. We are blessed. My husband has a flexible schedule, and so we have a bit, of a non-traditional, kind of family where he's taking the kids and picking them up. But we're both built that way. God made us that way. So for us it feels very natural.

But we've had to set up some boundaries. I always leave here before 5:30 PM. I am not on my phone. That's not always been the case. And even my kids, they understand that. They go, mom loses her phone all the time, and I actually take that as a badge of honor. That just means I'm not on that thing, and they don't see me on that thing.

And I just had to put those things in order to make sure that I'm spending time with the Lord, that I'm hearing from him, that I'm being still enough, because that's the biggest problem. The [00:24:00] devil is in the distractions. He wants to keep us busy. And moms working. Moms, not even leaders, but working moms.

There's a lot of things that are coming, trying to gather our attention. The minute you get home, your kids need something from you. Your spouse needs something from you, and you can just run at a pace that is not healthy and is not holy. And so I have had to learn to put those things in order, which I think really is seeking the kingdom first in all things. And then God has, gosh, given us every blessing when we've done that. 'Cause sometimes you get it wrong and you have to repent and then put it right back into order. So it's been sweet.

Jim: We're almost out of time. Martha's got one last question for you, but I wanna know when we do the next interview, - I hope it's not seven years. What's it looking like to take the vision you've been given by Rick and Holly and Ron Betenbough and take it to the next level? What does that look like spiritually, vision-wise for the company?

But we don't have time for that today, but I want you to be thinking about that one for the next time, unless of course you have a [00:25:00] short, succinct answer before Martha asks our last question.

Jeanna Roach: I think for that it's just we're gen two. We're generation two. And you know what Rick and Ron did? They just took the next right step. They asked the Lord what that was. They never had these big visions. Actually, God did, but He always gave them the next right thing. And so that's exactly what I'm doing right now.

Martha: That's so good because I think a lot of us think, okay, it's gotta be this three page document with all these bullet points, but taking the next right step - a good word for everybody right now, Jeanna.

There are a lot of Christian working women that are listening. What can you say to them today that the Lord maybe has put on your heart that you can speak into the Christian working woman?

Jeanna Roach: I've thought about this a lot, of course, 'cause I get questions like this all of the time. And I think, what I have learned is to just be authentically - to ask the Lord, who am I? Those two big questions. Who am I and why am I here? Identity and purpose. And so understanding that [00:26:00]women bring something so unique to a culture that is needed. God made us nurturers. And look, that looks different based on your personality, that looks different. That doesn't mean that you have to be really huggy and lovey-dovey, but that gift is in you.

Women have the gift of intuition, and they bring those things, and I'll tell you that Rick and Ron, they pulled those things outta me. They would always say, Hey Jeanna, we just need Jeanna. Don't beat Cal, don't be Carrie. Don't be whoever. We just want you. And I think that is the main message of the day, is to do that.

But like oftentimes, the world's trying to tell us to be more like our male counterparts and teammates. And if that's how you, that's how you win, that's how you get to the next level. But that's not what God says, he gave us specific giftings and for us to have whole and healthy cultures.

We need to bring those gifts that he gave us. And so for me it's, I always tell people I [00:27:00] joke, but it's like I'm gonna be in heels all the time. That's just who I am. I'm gonna wear hot pink. I'm not gonna look like your typical CEO for a home building company. And that's just because God made me uniquely this way.

These are the, this is who I am. And so I'm gonna bring all of me, all these gifts he has given me. I'm gonna recognize that other people around me are gonna bring other things. But honoring your male teammates I think is so critical. I see a lot of competition in women and the kingdom is about collaboration. It's about seeing not just those gifts in me, but those gifts in them, and that together we just make a powerhouse team.

Jim: Praise God. Jeanna Roach, thank you so much for coming back on, for sharing your life with the iWork4Him audience a few times over the last decade and we're just so excited to see what God's doing. Can't wait. Hope it's not seven years, but we can't wait to see what God does next. But Jeanna Roach, thanks for being back on iWork4Him today.

Jeanna Roach: Thank y'all so much. Bless y'all.

Jim: You've been listening [00:28:00] to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

5/21/25 - 2095: Chasing Roots, Not Fruits

Jim: [00:00:00] You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. And our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: When Jesus said he came to seek and save that which was lost, we have to ask the questions, what was lost? Who lost it? And where did they lose it? I believe Jesus was talking about all that was lost in the garden the day that Adam and Eve broke God's heart and our planet through a sinful rebellion.

What was lost on that day? Relationship with our Heavenly Father and so much more. Was God's design for business and the marketplace lost on that day too? You bet it was. We've been working to walk with Jesus to redeem business ever since his resurrection. David Schmidt has seen a lot over his years and he saw a need to start a podcast specifically about redeeming business.

David's here today to talk about his journey and what he's [00:01:00] seeing as a business coach. David Schmidt, welcome to iWork4Him.

David Schmidt: Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Martha. Glad to be here.

Jim: So David, we always do this with every story. The first time somebody's ever on our podcast, ask the question, what's your Jesus story?

David Schmidt: How far back do you wanna go? That's the question.

Jim: I wanna know where, when Jesus intersected your life, when did that happen and what was it like?

David Schmidt: Yeah. I was blessed to be brought up in a Christian home and my brother, I was about eight years old when my brother led me to the Lord. He was very concerned about his little brother. He learned about Jesus and he gave his life to the Lord. He's very concerned about his little brother. He talked to me and I actually had my older sister come in and we prayed, accept Jesus as my savior.

Now as an adult looking at eight year old's, like, how much does an 8-year-old understand? I don't know. But I know it was about 15, 16 where I'm like, if I'm Christian, I should probably intentionally, act like it. And so I never went through a rebellious stage and things like that. But I would tell you probably the biggest thing that [00:02:00] changed, propelled me more in my spiritual life was around 25.

I was a pastor at the time. I've done a lot of Bible memory through Bible quizzing and the Awana program and all that growing up. I was challenged to meditate on God's word. And it's like I've read God's word. I memorized God's word. I never really meditated upon it. That changed my life because in Christ are the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

And Jesus said, he who loves me and keeps my commandments, I'll love him and will manifest myself to him. That word for keep is to keep that word before your eyes. And that's, I learned so much and when I do that, whether it's through the Bible, other people's circumstances, whatever, God just keeps bringing these new pieces of wisdom, things to do.

And like, I've seen in my life, everything I've been trained and taught from the church, from my family, doesn't always align up with the Bible. And so as we see what the Bible says, and God says, [00:03:00]we change. And so that's what I want to help people in business do as well to evaluate their business by the Bible. And if God says something about it, let's seek to figure out what God wants and shift accordingly.

Martha: So talk about what you have seen in business then that makes you believe that it needs to be redeemed.

David Schmidt: I just - there's just a lot. My original name for Redeeming Business Today came from Ephesians 5:16, where it says, "redeeming the time for the days are evil." And that's about redeeming your time, but the word redeem means to buy back. And I'm a production guy. And that's what I'm very good at, is using your time wisely and all that stuff.

People are busy, soaked up into the business, doing the business all day long. If you can redeem your time, you can buy the business back from it running you till you start running the business. And that's an overview, nutshell of what that would be like.

Jim: Yeah. But what have you seen? [00:04:00] There's something that had to be that urging, like this podcast has got to start. I'm tired of seeing this over and over again. What was just, gimme one example, something you've seen.

David Schmidt: Okay. Sorry, disappointed. That wasn't it. That wasn't it. I'm on my journey of business. Trying to figure out what I'm supposed to be doing. I bought into a coaching franchise about three and a half years ago. And I crashed. And I didn't know what I was doing.

And after about a year, I told my coach, I'm more excited about dads and the Bible than I'm about business. I know more about the Bible than I do about business. And so I started a blog about for busy dads who need more time.

And just trying to add value that way. After about a year, I figured that those busy dads probably aren't reading my blog but they would probably listen to a podcast, and so that's why I made the shift from, I'm just trying to get my name out there and try to help people out. I know a lot from the Bible and just trying to put it out there so people can learn.

Jim: A lot of people don't realize, Martha, how much the Bible has to say about [00:05:00] business. And David, that makes so much sense because the Bible is full of great business knowledge.

Martha: So let's talk about then now your job as a coach. How are you helping people to redeem their businesses?

David Schmidt: It starts by helping them in their business, wherever their business is at. But there again, I've told my kids a lot that your success in life is a direct relationship to your relationship with God. And I said that a lot, and then God starts convicting me. And it's if you're saying that about business people, why isn't your coaching practice more biblically centered?

And so that's basically, there again, that's a journey. And what I've been doing lately is instead of saying, Hey, what is your win? When I coach people, instead of saying, what is your win for the week? I would say, how has God blessed you this week?

Trying to change their mindset. Or how has God challenged you this week? And just helping people, I bring into it now, here's your action items. And one of them is pray for your [00:06:00] employees. You gotta pray for them. So just trying to, again, throw the Bible in there to help them see that here's what the Bible says, it aligns perfectly with what you're working on in your business. And so it works good that way.

Jim: I love it. Business isn't just business, it's a kingdom calling. And at the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, which Martha and I are on the board of directors and we're involved as members, the US Christian Chamber of Commerce focuses on uniting Christian business leaders to build with excellence, lead with integrity, and advance God's kingdom in the marketplace. It's how we chamber. And if you're involved in business and you're a believer, you need to get involved with the US Christian Chamber of Commerce online at uschristianchamber.com.

David, you started a podcast last year called Redeeming Business Today, and you've shared a little of the story of where that came from. So you've talked about where the title came from. What kind of people are you interviewing? What are you learning from the people you first start with? What are the people that you're interviewing, [00:07:00] who you talking to?

David Schmidt: Who am I talking to? Back up. It's redeeming business. I want to help people understand that it's not just your work. And it's not just God's work, but it's "both and." George Mueller came up with that thought. That's where I first heard that thought. And it comes from first Corinthians 15:10, which says, Paul says, "by the grace of God, I am what I am. But his grace toward me was not in vain, but I worked more than all of them yet, not I, but the grace of God."

Paul worked hard. Paul worked super hard at his missionary work, but he gave the credit to God. And when I look at business, it's our hard work, good business practices, and it's also God's blessing, our relationship with him. So who do I interview? I interview some people who are just really good at what they do, whether it be marketing or writing or storytelling or whatever area that would help a business owner do better.

And then I also interview people who, [00:08:00] they've lived it. They had a business where God really wasn't the center of their life, and then they went through a tragedy or a change. Now God's running the business and what does their business look like today? Just trying to get people, that story that before and after example of, it's not gonna be the same in your life, but this is one other person's example of that. There you go.

Martha: That's awesome. So as you've done these interviews, is there anything like overarching that you've been learning as you hear other people's stories about what they're experiencing?

David Schmidt: Overarching? No. I do know, I personally have learned a lot and I've grown a lot. Things I haven't been doing. It helps me in my business, things that I've been doing. But yes, I can't tell you just one. I could tell you a bunch, but... (laughing)

Martha: That's okay.

Jim: Give us a couple of those things. 'cause it, there's usually a common theme that starts to develop that you start to hear, and that's the Holy Spirit that's writing that same story in so many people's lives. What are some of the things that you hear business owners [00:09:00] struggling with as they're trying to live out their faith at work?

David Schmidt: I think this thing they struggle with is compromise, usually time-wise. Because they work super hard and they are chasing the money, chasing, trying to get the money instead of trying to... as one, one of my guests said, you are chasing the fruit versus chasing the root. He goes, build on the root, build up the people. Invest in the people and the fruit, the money, the prosperity will come.

Jim: That's what Jesus did, didn't he? Seems like... yeah, he invested in people! Huh. Imagine that - Jesus set a good example for us.

Sarcasm noted for the audience. (laughter)

Martha: There are a lot of things that are typical experiences that business owners do have, but there are some things that we can avoid from being typical or being just expected that are gonna have, and one of those is being vulnerable to cyber attacks.

At iWork4Him, we utilize SaferNet to keep all of our [00:10:00] devices safe. SaferNet's, VPN, their virus protection, and their web filters are created to keep the bad guys out so you don't have to experience the losing of valuable data and time that you lose when you have a cyber attack. So go to safernet.com today and see for yourself what services they can offer you. It's the proactive way to run a business and let them know that iWork4Him sent you.

Jim: All right. So David, I wanna go off script a little bit 'cause we always send our guests questions we're gonna ask outta respect.

You mentioned something that I didn't know. So how many years were you a pastor of a church? Seven. Okay. And that's, so that's part of your career. Were you a pulpit pastor or were you a executive pastor? What kind of pastor were you?

David Schmidt: Solo pastor of a small church. There's two different churches. One church, I was there for about two and a half years. They had roughly 60 people. The other churched about 40 ish people. Because of the size of my family, sometimes I was 20% of the congregation. But both of them were pretty much like [00:11:00] part-time.

Jim: Sure. So you mentioned that you have an engineering background. Is that what you said? Okay. Yes. And you became a believer young and made a commitment really at 16 to say, Hey, this should start impacting all of me. What did you learn as an engineer? 'cause engineers are about systems. They're about tolerances. They're about making sure that everything that's built is gonna stay built for a very long period of time. When you look at your experience as an engineer, what were some of the things that you really struggled with? And living out your faith as an engineer?

David Schmidt: That's a good question. What am I struggling with? I'm a quality engineer right now. And yeah, people do things that I don't agree with but I have to answer for how they act. I'm not in charge of the finances part of it, but there's some times when I think it's our problem and maybe a little bit of their problem.

[00:12:00] But if it's any, if my people I work with think if it's any part of the customer's problem, we're gonna shove it all on them. Because their view almost is, if we can make them look bad, it makes us look good. It's just - but we are part of the problem too. And so it's that whole back and forth of I try to be open and honest and say, Hey, yeah, you got issues. We got issues, let's work together.

But a lot of times I would rather probably like to work together more, but because of the environment I'm in, I am restrained. And it's more, I don't, it's kinda throwing it back at them.

Jim: So how long have you worked at the place where you're currently working right now?

David Schmidt: Two and a half years.

Jim: So you've had a lot of chance to get to know a lot of people at work in two and a half years. Have you started to see that the relationships that you're building are starting to give you an opportunity, a platform for sharing your faith?

David Schmidt: Some, yes. The tricky part is, and I've always found this [00:13:00] tricky, is people who know about God. They think they're a Christian, but they don't actually act like a Christian, and so they, they're not, you know what I'm saying? It's like there's some people who they follow God wholeheartedly and other people, they go to church, their dad's a pastor, all this stuff, and I find that those are the people who are the hardest to come around, and maybe ask some suggestions for that, other than praying for them .

Jim: That's the biggest suggestion is to start with, praying for those people by name every day. We talked about , on your podcast, David, that we've got this thing called the iWork4Him Nation. If you go on iWork4Him.com/join the nation, it's these steps and we went through with it on your podcast.

But David, it's pray for people by name every day, the ones you interact with, and as you said, you're praying for them in your group. Then you look for ways to serve them over and above what you're required to do. You look for ways to befriend 'em outside of the workplace. Have you ever had your teammates over for dinner yet?

There you go. It's a great way to do that. The conversations around a dinner table are some of those powerful [00:14:00] conversations around the world. That's why coffee became coffee around the globe because the Middle Eastern culture loved to sit down and talk. And that's where coffee came from. The Middle Eastern culture.

Martha: I'm pretty sure that's where potlucks come from in America.

Jim: It could be. And look for ways to pray with people when you notice they're having a rough day. 'cause that's what really opens the doors, is when you see people that are normally one way, and then all of a sudden you notice they're having a tough day.

You get a chance to say what's going on, and you listen and then you ask 'em, can I pray with you about that right now? Never had anybody tell me no. But all along, you've gotta be that person of excellence and I think that's an encouragement for everybody. Engineers aren't known for being loquacious. One of those words pull out of a high school vocabulary class.

Usually you're quiet, you're worried about the formulas, you're worried about making sure that the math all works. And if you're a quality engineer, you're making sure that everything you've designed in the process is gonna provide the product that they expected it to be. So that's the excellence side.

But the people, none of that stuff works without the people. And God loves the people, and [00:15:00]Jesus was so good at focusing on the people. So I'd encourage you to keep doing what you were doing, but just to be more intentional about that prayer. And then having lunch with people that maybe aren't your typical crowd to have lunch with, or maybe that's outta the box for you. As an engineer, do you like to have lunch with other people or do you like to be at your cubicle?

David Schmidt: I usually stay at my cubicle.

Jim: Is there a lunchroom? There you go. See, that's the thing that I think a lot of us miss the opportunity, is to get out there where everybody else is. It may be a little crude, rude, and unacceptable because sometimes the lunchrooms could be that way.

But when you start to hang out with people to find out that you're a real person, and when you could share, man, I've been really struggling with this, but my faith has really taken me through. Those are the kinds of stories that'll just come up naturally as part of the process. I am sure God's planted you right where you're at on purpose for a purpose.

You look like you're wanting to say something.

Martha: No, you know what you are talking about in Redeeming Business Today, I just think that's really a good encouragement for each one of us to look at. Okay, maybe we feel like we haven't [00:16:00] taken that next step and maybe now is a time to say, what can I do to better love on those around me?

And what can I do today that I wasn't doing yesterday? Not this 10 point action plan that's gonna be so overwhelming, but who can I be for the kingdom? And I love having that conversation.

Jim: It is really a lot simpler and everybody listening, just when you pray for people by name every day, your heart starts to change.

You start to see those people the way God sees them. And David, that's the greatest encouragement when you do that praying, it starts to transform who you are as a human being. And I've seen that in my own life as we pray. We live in a small town in southwest Missouri, and we've only been here three years. When you pray for people by name, it starts to transform your heart.

As you look towards your next Redeeming Business Today podcast, how about some advice, how about some advice out there for people that really do wanna redeem their business? Some things that, maybe one thing you've pulled out of your interviews that you've done so far that you'd love to share with everybody on our podcast.

David Schmidt: Not [00:17:00] necessarily out of the podcast, but I've learned, Deuteronomy 17, 14 through 20. It was God's law about the kings. He goes, guys, when you go into the land, you're gonna get a king someday. And it's very interesting. He tells him three things not to do, not to go multiply horses, not to multiply wives, not to multiply silver and gold.

He tells him one thing to do. He says, when you sit upon the throne of your kingdom, you'll write yourself a copy of this law and you're gonna read it every day of your life. And not only read it, you're gonna read it so that you can learn to fear the Lord your God, to keep all the laws and statues to do them, that your heart be not lifted up above your brethren to the end, that you may prolong your days in your kingdom, you and your children in the midst of Israel.

Guy wanted them to write the law. It's basically the book of Deuteronomy. It's not the whole Bible, it's a book of Deuteronomy. They're supposed to personally write it out and read every day of their life [00:18:00] three major things. One, they're gonna learn the fear of the Lord so they can obey all the laws. 'Cause that was their covenant, that was their law book. And three, that your heart's not lifted up above your brethren. And that's one of the things I see with the kings and with business owners. They get, for lack of a better word, proud. Puffed up. Proud, haughty. They think they're better than everybody else.

Their ideas are best. And reading the Bible every day is gonna keep you level. It's gonna keep you in the fear of the Lord, doing what God wants you to do. And if there's things you're not supposed to be doing and change, that's where you're gonna find it.

Jim: Oh, you can get that and a lot more on the Redeeming Business Today Podcast with David Schmidt. We'll have a link to where you can hear more about that. He's on all of the major podcast platforms. David Schmidt, thanks for sharing your life with us today, sharing about your podcast, and for that great advice. Thanks, David.

David Schmidt: Thank you very much.

Jim: You have been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our [00:19:00] workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.