9/24/25 - 2113: The Servant Lawyer's Guide to Faith at Work

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. Our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place, where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Over the years we've interviewed hundreds of authors, thousands of everyday workers living out their faith and their work, but never have we interviewed a lawyer who wrote a book that reflects the antithesis of how we all view lawyers. So much that this book caught my attention, it also kept me riveted to the pages all the way to the end. The book is called Servant Lawyer and the author is Attorney and Professor Robert (Bob) F. Cochran Jr.

So incredible is this thinking that he reflects in his book, I had to have Bob on to talk about this revolutionary understanding of the kingdom role of an attorney. Throw out everything about your thinking about what a lawyer does and how they should act and open your mind to the endless possibilities of the kingdom role of lawyers. Bob Cochran, welcome to iWork4Him.

Robert Cochran: Thanks so much, Jim and Martha. It's nice to be with you.

Jim: Bob, tell us about your journey. We wanna hear about your journey in making Jesus your Lord and your Savior.

Robert Cochran: Yeah. I was raised in a Christian home, I think a wonderful Christian home, but like a lot of preacher's kids...

Jim: Oh, you're a PK. Oh boy.

Robert Cochran: I am. I am. I ran away from the faith, wanted to discover the world on my own, so through high school and college, pretty much running away from God. And then I got to law school. I went to law school for not such good reasons - of pursuit of status. I just found that that world and that pursuit to be empty, started reexamining my faith and I guess discovering.

Discovering CS Lewis, him speaking to my mind, I'd had plenty of wonderful lessons for the heart, but Lewis speaking to my mind was a big part of that, and I guess it was a search for meaning and truth. So in the midst of my first year of law school, not really a great time to have a crisis of faith, committed my life to him and been trying to follow him since that time.

Jim: But CS Lewis could frame an argument better than almost anybody who's ever lived. I'm sure maybe Socrates was good at it too, but CS Lewis was so good at it. And he could speak at all levels. He could speak at simple levels that he could speak at exquisite levels, so I could see how he touched your life.

Martha: So I'm curious because you said you wanted to become a lawyer, maybe because of the prestige and the return that might come from that. After you really made a commitment to Christ, obviously you continued on with that education, so you must have then decided to really be committed to becoming a lawyer. Is that correct?

Robert Cochran: I went back and forth with the idea of going to seminary, becoming a minister, or sticking with law. But I had really an ever expanding view of Christ and what Christ is doing in the world and what I might do. And then really also just through I think mystical insights, circumstances, a number of things, kept me in law. And it really wasn't until after a few years of law practice that I looked around and I didn't have this nagging sense that I ought to be a minister anymore. I really came to see law practice as a vocation, as a way of following Christ.

Jim: So talk to us about how that really became, your faith became interwoven in your law practice? What was that journey like? Because you've decided that they should be interwoven. We could talk to a thousand attorneys and they would say, law is law. And Jesus is Jesus, they don't have anything to do with each other. You're saying they should be interwoven.

Robert Cochran: Yeah. I guess I'd point to three influences. One was a group of Christian law students who've remained among my best friends for 50 years. I still meet with several of 'em weekly in a Zoom Bible study. They've encouraged me there, helped me to develop this vision of a servant lawyer, and hopefully I've encouraged them as well.

Secondly, I got involved in a church that introduced me to John Calvin and some of his thinking and writing about law and about the world generally, and even about law practice. You may know that he was a lawyer before he became a Christian author and pastor. And so he had thought a lot about it. And one of his great sayings that had an impact on me is "all the world should be a theater for the glory of God." And so it was that kind of a vision that that had an impact with me. I tended to separate the world around me from my Christian faith, but then envisioning Jesus as being Lord of all of life, Lord of all the World, was a great vision.

And then I had a professor named Tom Schaefer, who had written a book called On Being a Christian and a Lawyer. He had just been the dean at Notre Dame Law School and had come to University of Virginia, where I went to law school, as a professor. And and he was really a mentor to me throughout my law practice and then going into law teaching, strong influence with me. So really, all three of those things.

Jim: But there had to been a lot of pushback because you're in a world. I'm not, I won't go to any of the analogies for attorneys. We'll try to be very nice today to the attorneys, but you're in a world that doesn't really emulate the characteristics of Jesus. So when you decided that you had a different perspective on what it really meant to be an attorney, there had to be attorneys around you who were also Jesus followers, who thought you were crazy.

Robert Cochran: I guess I'll push back a little bit. I think attorneys tend to get the reputation they have because of what I would consider to be a few bad apples. Yes, there are attorneys who are like that and deserve the reputation that they have. I do think most attorneys are trying to abide by professional responsibility, rules. Some of the aggressiveness of attorneys is part of representing their clients. And I don't excuse that as something that's wrong, I see it as part of the system and a system that's developed over the decades and has recognized that it's really in confrontation between ideas that judges and juries can, I think, often get a sense of the truth of things.

So I'll defend my profession generally. There aren't many Christian lawyers that think in terms of Jesus sitting right beside them as they're interviewing clients, Jesus sitting right beside them as they argue before court. I think we should view ourselves more that way. And I didn't find that I got pushback so much as "that's an interesting idea. I need to merge those two aspects of my life, or think more in terms of what it would mean for Jesus to be Lord of all of my life."

Jim: That's a good word. Many people struggle to learn what Bob's talking about, allowing our faith to be interwoven in our work and to help you with that shift in thinking, consider joining the US Christian Chamber of Commerce, uschristianchamber.com, where you could surround yourself with other Christ followers, learning to live like Jesus in the workplace.

The resources and networking opportunities even include an expo in April of 2026 where Martha and I will serve as the MCs. The link to the expo is swc2026.com and the code iWork4Him will get you a discount, and we'll see you there.

Martha: So Bob, I wanna ask you a question that maybe not a lot of people have even wondered about this question, but what do you believe is the kingdom purpose of a lawyer? Because you have some thoughts on this.

Robert Cochran: Yes. Yes. I think all the things that we do, what we do should be a reflection of love of God, our love of God. But more specifically for most of us our focus is on love of neighbor. And I think there's a couple of ways in which being an attorney is a way of showing love to your neighbor. Most specifically, most immediately, is gonna be showing love to your clients.

My mentor and friend I mentioned earlier, Tom Schafer, he taught legal ethics and he would, with a wink in his eye, ask people to define the client, and lawyers have all sorts of technical ways, is there a contract, has money been paid? There's all sorts of things you you might wrestle with, but Tom would say that for the Christian, the definition of a client is this person God has brought into my life.

Jim: It's your neighbor.

Robert Cochran: Yeah. Yeah. And you know when you hear that knock at the door, you get that irritating phone call, to be reminded that this is a person God has brought into my life is an important one. And you're dealing with people typically, or at least quite often, at the most stressful time of their lives. You may be used to the legal system as an attorney, but it's a whole new experience for them, whether it's business related, death of a parent or a child, or they've got criminal cases brought against them or they've been sued, those are times when to have a caring person with them and somebody who will speak for them.

Oftentimes people don't know what to say. They're not very articulate, they don't know the law. And so having someone speak for them is a very important way of loving them. But also being a caring person. So many people envision lawyers in the way you've described them, and it'll be a surprise if you find one who loves and cares for you. And not every Christian and not every attorney is comfortable with this, but I would very often in, in cases when we were faced with high stress, say we've got a challenge in front of us. Can I say a prayer for us?

Martha: Awesome.

Jim: Awesome.

Robert Cochran: And I never had anybody resist or say no, sometimes I gotta look like, man, I don't believe this, but we need every bit of help we can get. (laughing)

Jim: Yeah, that's right.

Robert Cochran: And I would just say a prayer and have the sense that God was right there.

Martha: I love that.

Jim: That's good. We're talking today with Bob Cochrane. He wrote this book, The Servant Lawyer, Facing the Challenges of Christian Faith in Everyday Law Practice. We're showing it here, out here on YouTube. We recommend - we'll have the links in the show notes on the podcast. But if you're an attorney or you've got a friend that's an attorney, or you're using an attorney, give them this book as a gift just from you with our recommendation because in there it gives them a whole paradigm shifting look at the practice of law.

Robert Cochran: Let me just say one other thing in response to the earlier question, which was, how do we serve God in law practice?

I mentioned loving our neighbor and the specific client that we're serving but I also wanna highlight the role that lawyers play within our system as advocates for people. So the advocacy system is designed to, the hope is that justice will merge when lawyers - here lawyers make arguments for each client, and then a judge and a jury may be hears those arguments, but also within our commercial system, oftentimes lawyers are representing clients and you're negotiating deals.

So many of the deals that are done, lawyers involved, lawyers anticipate potential problems. They draft documents in ways they're gonna avoid those, and I think they smooth an economic system that creates jobs, creates products for people, and I think that's an a very important role that lawyers serve that often they lose sight of when they're busy just stuck with documents - the people that benefit on down the way from their work.

Martha: Yeah. And I think in a lot of our occupations, we forget the influence that we have over the people that we are working with. So if you're listening today, you're not necessarily a lawyer, you haven't had to work with lawyers on doing deals and things like that, but wherever you are working, you are a person of influence for the kingdom.

And so to take that responsibility with you. Jim, we just interviewed somebody for another podcast talking about bringing our genuine self. If Christ has truly changed us, then we bring him with us into everything that we do, which is such a huge part of our jobs, no matter what our occupation is. So Bob, I wanna ask you this question.

How do you, I don't even know if balance is the right word, but how do you navigate when the world does have a preconceived expectation of what an attorney does and is, and how they act versus how God expects you to be as his son who is an attorney?

Robert Cochran: Yeah. I would say that it's not a balance at all. I would say you look first and foremost, and really only at what it is that, that God wants you to do in a particular circumstance, and you go that route, even if it might get you in in... might ruffle some feathers or might even get you into trouble. I think standing up for faith, following Christ even if the world around you and under some circumstances, even the law would push you in an un-Christian direction.

That being said, I've got a lot of respect for the law as you can already sense. Particularly in the United States, I've got a lot of respect for our commercial system. I think before you challenge it, you should think long and hard. But Christ should be your guiding light. What is good for people? Now again, I'll highlight that you play a role within a system. You've gotta look to the end result that system is designed to give, and sometimes your role will be to argue for someone something that you don't believe, but you've gotta trust the system.

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Jim: Bob, I wanna close out the show doing some stories, telling us some stories. There's all different kinds of attorneys with many types of specialties, from defending criminals to negotiating divorces to facilitating business deals and so much more, international law and US law. Give us a story of how you were able to reflect the character of Christ in one of those settings.

Robert Cochran: Thanks, Jim. I remember one time lawyers that do divorce and family law work have to wrestle with when they're gonna handle a divorce what their relationship will be with clients. I've had friends who are Christian attorneys and they say in a setting like that, they have enormous opportunities for witness and ministry when people typically are at the very bottom of their lives. As I wrestled with it, it seemed to me there were some circumstances where I could work to get a divorce for someone, and some where I could not.

I had a lady come in. She was an older lady, and she said that she had decided to divorce her husband. And so I asked her to tell me a little bit about her background, her husband's background. It became obvious that they were probably both Christians. She just, she described themselves as going to a Baptist church, et cetera. The pointers were toward her being a Christian.

And so I said that I could refer her to another attorney who could handle that, but I'd made a commitment to not pursue divorce under some circumstances. And her shoulders dropped. She said, I've been thinking about it, getting a divorce from my husband for 30 years. I finally got the courage to go to an attorney and get my divorce, and I picked you out of the phone book and I probably got the only lawyer in Charlottesville who won't get me my divorce. And she leaned over and she pulled a Bible out of her purse and she said, you tell me Mr. Cochran, where does it say in here that I can't get my divorce?

And I leaned over, pulled the drawer out, pulled the Bible out of my desk, and we walked through the scriptures and by the end you could tell she was, that what I'd said had made an impact. So I asked if I could call her pastor or try and get her and her husband together with them, maybe get a little counseling and she said, sure. An example where I think a lot of attorneys would say, my faith doesn't have anything to do with this. If you're, if you're gonna follow Christ, sometimes you have to resist those inclinations.

Jim: A great example. That's a great story. Perfect story.

Martha: Yeah, it is.

Jim: So speak to the Christ following attorneys and their clients that are out there listening today. Encourage them that being a servant lawyer, helping people at possibly the worst time of their lives is in fact, not only possible, it's expected. Talk to people about the general attitude that you present in your book, because there's a lot of attorneys out there that have never been taught that perspective, and that's why I'm hoping you get a chance to mentor and disciple thousands before the Lord takes you home, but speak encouragement to them today.

Robert Cochran: I will put in a little plug for my book. I developed these themes that we've been talking about a lot in the book both for business lawyers, litigators, the lawyer counselor, the lawyer who's in court lawyers, who serve poor people, and law students.

I talk about the moral challenges of law practice and of law school, but I would say be encouraged. I don't think there's any other profession that gives you more opportunity to serve other people, whether that's the individual client who's across the desk from you or the system generally. People make light of lawyers, but you go to a country where there's not the rule of law or where law's disregarded, where you don't have lawyers who are encouraging people to comply with the law, you're likely to hug the first lawyer in this country.

We tend to take law on lawyers for granted, but if they're not around and we can't rely on people's word and documents and safety - a lot of those things, lawyers are there and help to protect us.

Martha: That's awesome. I just had a thought: if we have lawyers in our lives, they're probably hard to buy gifts for, and so I just think that your book, The Servant Lawyer, Facing the Challenges of Christian Faith in Everyday Law Practice would be a great gift.

All of us probably know somebody who's going to law school or they're going to go there after they get their bachelor's or have a practice or you know, whatever their role might be, that you could get this book for them to encourage them through the chapters of this book regarding the industry that they are in, and give them that opportunity to make some new, maybe reinforce or make some new decisions about how they view their work and being the servant lawyer that they've been created to be. So I just think that would be a great gift idea. And Christmas will be here before you know it.

Jim: Hey, that's right. And Bob, I wanna just thank you for your words about the fact that you do have so many ministry opportunities because you, when a client potential client walks in your door, they're possibly at the lowest point in their life. And that's where most attorneys greet their clients, at a very low point. Not always, 'cause sometimes it's business deals and things like that, but you're often dealing with people that are under an extraordinary amount of stress, and that is the greatest open door for being Jesus to those neighbors.

Bob Cochran, thanks for bringing your book to iWork4Him today. Thanks for the discipleship method, the paradigm shifting information, that you've got in your book for looking at law practice as truly a kingdom function and an incredible ministry opportunity. Bob Cochrane, thanks for being on iWork4Him today.

Robert Cochran: Thank you.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.