10/29/25 - 2118: The ESOP Solution for Christian Business Owners

Jim: You've tuned into a special edition of iWork4Him. I'm Jim Brangenberg. It's every business owner's dream to grow their company from a startup to a successful, thriving business that's worth millions and millions of dollars, and then to sell and retire and buy a sailboat and sail off into the future.

The problem with that dream is for a Jesus following business owner, it's actually a nightmare, because if you do grow your business into a multimillion dollar venture and have shaped your culture to reflect the God you serve, there are very few companies that wanna buy you out and preserve your culture.

We have witnessed over the years dozens of Christian run companies destroyed by selling out to private equity groups. Can we stop this madness? Is there a solution to this problem? What do you do if you're ready to sell your business and you have no good plan to fund your retirement without selling your business?

How do you take care of yourself, provide for your employees, and protect the culture of your business you've so painstakingly grown over the years? Today we hear the story of successful entrepreneur, Steve Bock, and his company Subsentio. Steve got his wish and grew a company to a large success, but that isn't the rest of the story. That's only the beginning of some punishing years and the ultimate God resolution to the story.

Today on iWork4Him we cover Steve's story and how God provided the solution to perpetuate the kingdom culture at Subsentio. Steve Bock, welcome to iWork4Him.

Steve Bock: Thank you. Good to be here.

Jim: Steve, we usually start the show with your story of becoming a Jesus follower, but since that's part of today's show, let's start with why did you start Subsentio?

Steve Bock: The genesis of the company goes back to 9/11. I was actually working at a firm that had me run all the major account teams so Verizon, AT&T, and Sprint and so on. I took that job on September 1st, 2001. And I had flown into LaGuardia on the 9th of September to go up to the Shelton, Connecticut office.

And I was planning to spend the day on that Monday at the office, which I did. And then on Tuesday I was driving, planning to drive down into the city to be with my team, which, it was in the Rockefeller Center and so when the planes hit the towers, which I watched on tv, I went back to my hotel room and paced and decided to go ahead and go to the city the following day on the 12th, and I spent the week there.

And it was really impactful for me. I saw people pouring out of buildings. I seemed like every block there were bomb scares. The fear in people's eyes was just amazing to witness. I spent time at the Fifth Avenue Presbyterian Church to be there for the National Day of Prayer. And I sat next to people that had lost loved ones in those buildings, in those towers.

That night I went out to dinner and there were some army guys at dinner and they were gung-ho, let's go get 'em. In other words, let's go get Bin Laden. All that led up to leaving on that Saturday, if you remember, there was nobody flying that week.

Jim: Yeah.

Steve Bock: And literally the first flight outta LaGuardia was a United Airlines flight back to Denver, and there was nobody on the plane. It was just me and two United Airlines stewardesses that couldn't stop crying. I figured I was too old to join the army. The FBI probably wouldn't take me, but I wanted to do something to prevent that from happening again. So I formed Subsentio, which is a Latin word, it means to notice secretly, to make sure that we kept watch on our networks, for crime and terrorism.

Jim: So was Subsentio an instant success?

Steve Bock: Oh no. When I started the company, I immediately drove it into the ground, and after a couple years, I was a million dollars in debt and the prospects weren't very good.

Jim: So that makes you wonder, was I supposed to go into business or not? That makes it kinda scary. So what broke the ice dam that was holding you back and holding your company back?

Steve Bock: This is where God comes in because the reason that I drove it into the ground was I was trying to control everything myself. My stubborn pride resulted in really poor business decisions and ignoring the hard truths. And I decided to read my great-grandfather's Bible. I come from a line of ministers, and my grandpa Jordan had given me his King James Bible, and I figured there's gotta be an answer here. And so I read the Bible from beginning to end and did not find an answer.

Things got progressively worse, so I decided to start over again and began reading this from the beginning, until I got to John and the story of Lazarus. So that second time through I knew that story very well. But I read something I never realized, and that is that Jesus waited. He was told that Lazarus was dying. He could have gone and saved Lazarus' life. He'd done that in his ministry with other people, but he decided to wait, wait for Lazarus to die and then perform his greatest miracle.

And that's when it hit me. It was like literally the Holy Spirit just came into my body and I realized I had to die. I had to die to my old self and stop trying to be in control and turn my life over to Christ. I laid down on the floor, I wept, and when I got up, I was new man. I was born again.

Jim: What year was that?

Steve Bock: That was in 2006. So we started the company in 2004. So it was a two year process to get to that point.

Jim: But what's amazing about that, often we have to get to the end of our story, the end of our rope, before we realize that God's been holding out his rope all along. And that's really what happened in your life. And for the disciples, that's what happened to their lives when Lazarus died. They just didn't understand who Jesus really is until that day, and that was pretty impressive. The bad part was Lazarus, supposedly one of Jesus' best friends, had to die.

But imagine that conversation after he raised him from the dead and they're having dinner afterwards. And I always wondered about that, like what did they talk about? I thought that would be interesting. So after that point happened, God brought you somebody to partner with you in your business, and Subsentio started to grow.

Talk to me about that.

Steve Bock: Yeah, there was a couple events, but once I turned everything over to the Lord, then suddenly he opened up his kingdom to me, and it started with a former FBI agent who's a believer. And his name is Ward Jackson. His moniker in the bureau was Action Jackson. So you get an idea of this guy's personality.

He was the kind of guy that if you went and talked to cops, which happened to me once, there was a bunch of cops at a trade show talking and I asked, what are you guys talking about? And he said we were trying to decide who we wanted to be our partner in a firefight. And we all chose Ward. So that's the kind of guy he is.

And I told him everything that had happened. I was completely transparent with him and he said, I wanna walk with you. And once he came into the company, now we had credibility that we had a former FBI guy that was very well respected in the industry and that it was like the good housekeeping seal of approval.

Jim: So Subsentio starts to grow. But you decided that you wanted it to grow even faster, and you had an opportunity to buy out another company or do an acquisition. In order to grow the notoriety, all that, how did that acquisition set Subsentio up for success?

Steve Bock: My strategy was to go and sell into the rural telephone spaces because they couldn't afford the cost of being compliant with the wiretap laws. But then I had this crazy idea and it came about, I was talking to a friend of mine, Scott Chandler, at church one day. We had known each other for a couple years, but we didn't know what we did. And so we got to talking about, so what is it you do? And we both realized we're both in telecommunications and we joked that's why we go to church, 'cause you need a lot of forgiveness to be in that industry.

And so over time I said, Scott, I got a crazy idea. I think we could buy our largest competitor. And he helped me put together debt and equity to do that, and it transformed the company because up until then, most of my, as I said, most of my customers were small, rural telephone companies. Now, by purchasing the news to our legal compliance division, we were into tier one, tier two accounts, and it transformed the company.

Jim: So the company grew, but with that acquisition also came investors and a board of directors. Was that a blessing or was that not a blessing?

Steve Bock: Initially it was, it was great to have investors, have a board, the discipline around all that. And we continued to grow the company. So initially it was a good thing. And then after about three or four years - by the way, I'd given up my senior position in the stock. So I didn't have control of the company anymore. The board did, and the board decided that they wanted to sell. And so this was around 2019, and we went out to the marketplace and it didn't sell. The reasons for that, no one really knows.

Jim: Oh, yes, we do. For the rest of the story. We know that. We know why, but yes.

Steve Bock: Yeah I think they were asking too much and a lot of the companies that were looking at us didn't want the liability. We will process 20,000 subpoenas and emergency calls this year. So they didn't, these companies that were looking at us didn't want to handle the two o'clock in the morning call when there's been a kidnapping or a murder for hire or something like that, terrorist with a bomb.

Jim: The private equity guys, which when private equity guys come in, their goal is to grow up a company and then sell it. But often when private equity guys come into a business, they want majority ownership, which forced you to have a minority position, which means you didn't really have control. Maybe you were running the company, but you didn't have total control. And then when they couldn't sell it, what happened to you?

Steve Bock: After they threw in the towel on selling the company, one of the board members came to me and over dinner told me that the board had made a decision to have me step down as CEO and he was gonna take over 'cause he said he knew how to grow the business and he asked me to stay on in the position of sales and to run sales.

Jim: So they wanted you to quit running your own company that you've been running for almost 20 years at that point in time? Yeah, that must've been really hard.

Steve Bock: Yeah, it was a punch to the solar plexus, for sure. The timing of that was we were on a retreat with the executive staff and they were pretty upset as well. And we all decided to give it a try. But it only took about 30 days for me to realize that the whole thing was just a train wreck. For example, one of the benefits that we have at the company is we give everybody a $100 gift card on their birthday, and the new CEO decided to cut that expense.

Now, a company of 30 people, that's $3,000 on a company that's doing six or 7 million. I had one employee call me in tears saying, that's the only gift I ever get on my birthday. You know, that's when, after being on my knees one day in prayer, I realized that if we didn't try to get control of the company back from these investors - and by the way, they're not all bad. They were good people on the board. They weren't all bad, but on my knees, I decided to try to get the company back.

Jim: So let's talk about that, because you'd been forced out, they've already started dismantling the company, but let's go back to you had created. You had created a culture where employees were valued, where people were like family, because you guys dealt with a lot of trauma. You were in the trenches all the time. There was a culture there worth saving, employees worth honoring.

Talk to us about how you developed that culture, because that's really the, there wouldn't be a story here if that hadn't happened over the years from '04 when you started and '19, when they forced you out. There was 15 plus years of investing in people and creating a culture that made people wanna stay. Talk to us about what had you done? A hundred dollars gift cards, that's not what this is all about. It's way deeper than that.

Steve Bock: No it's not. I had always first of all, everybody that works here, back then and now, are here for the mission. Our tagline is "together, we're saving lives." So it's all about helping law enforcement keep people safe. But beyond that, there's a culture that the priorities are God first, then family, then work.

It doesn't always work that way because we work really hard and some people probably work too long or too many hours. But that was the culture that, that we had, was trying to make sure we had our priorities in place to put God first and then family before work. We developed that with a variety of different things.

We give special holidays. I think we have more holidays than anybody else, not only all the federal ones, but a special day just to be with family. I love Italy. And so we have a day called La Dolce Vita Day, which means a sweet life. And the idea is just to be like the Italians. They know how to live well, and that means spending time with family, spending time with your friends, and not working so hard.

Jim: So that culture that you'd invested your life in, his blood, sweat and tears at this point in time in, in 2019, you get moved out. They bring in a guy who doesn't really know anything about your mission to run it, or he thinks he knows what you know, but he doesn't clearly know it.

What did you see happen? You said in the first 30 days you knew that this was a disaster. What did you see start happening? Did you start losing employees or what? What was going on under this new person's leadership?

Steve Bock: The employees, nearly every one of them wanted to quit. The way we treated our clients changed and they were getting upset. Most disturbing was the way we were cheating law enforcement. They were getting upset and it was all about how to enrich the pockets of the investors over the mission of the company. So things like going on a business trip and the whole reason for that was really to spend time with family so that they could write that business trip off. Just those little things that just... we trust each other as a group, and if you don't have that trust with your leader, then the mission's gonna fail.

Jim: So God orchestrated a miracle in that your private equity guys weren't able to sell the business on the open market. And so it's sitting out there. They've demoted you. They're saying, we could do this better than you can, and God, in your prayer time said, Steve, I got an idea. What was that idea?

Steve Bock: The idea was to first call a good friend of mine from about 20 years ago. His name is Tom and I called him up and I told him what was going on. And I said, Tom, would you like to buy my company? And he said, no, but I'll help you get it back. Tom's an attorney. And so we came up with the idea of doing a leverage buyout and loading up the debt to buy out the investors. We called it Project Narnia because we wanted to put Christ back on the throne. So that was our internal code name for the project.

And with Tom's help, we were able to present to the investors a proposal that I thought was fair. Everybody wants to hit a home run in their investments. I gave 'em a solid double. I basically doubled their investment, and they accepted that offer. And so we were able to get an SBA loan to take out the investors.

Jim: That's huge. So you get it back and everybody collectively at Subsentio takes a collective sigh. You regain control. Then you had to keep growing the company, 'cause now you have leverage, now you've got debt that you didn't have before, 'cause you had to pay out those other guys. How did you keep the company growing and move into a forward path when you knew you had promised your wife that you'd retire in 2026? That's a pretty quick deadline in, 2019 to 2026, 7 years. So what did God do then?

Steve Bock: By then I was involved with C12 and I'm sure we'll talk about that a little more later.

Jim: Let's just stop right now and talk. You brought it up, C12. Talk about C12. What's C12 all about?

Steve Bock: C12 is a a Christian organization for CEOs and key players, which really gave me purpose for the company in ways that I had never envisioned before. I'm a preacher's kid and preachers are always looking at how many people can I witness for and for the Lord, and they may have a congregation of 500 people, and that's the limit of who they're witnessing to.

C12 taught me that Billy Graham was right. The next great way to evangelize is through a business. In my business, even though we only have 30 employees, 36 now, we have 300 customers and we deal with thousands of law enforcement agencies. The impact that we can have on the kingdom through the business is far beyond what a congregation of 2000 people would have, and so that's what gave me the inspiration to join C12, was the idea that I could use Subsentio as a platform for the Lord.

It's also a refuge for me. No one really understands the pressures of sitting in the corner office, like the people around that table and the friendships that I developed that will be lifelong. Friendships are just incredible. The curriculum is fantastic, but ultimately it's the relationships and the people that I can call at any time to ask for prayer, or them calling me for support, that really is the value of C12.

Jim: So is it fair to say that C12 group online at c12group.com, that's a free commercial for C12, by the way, taught you how to be a kingdom business owner?

Steve Bock: Yes, absolutely.

Jim: And that comradery around that group, 12 people in the room, that comradery to be able to learn from each other. But that was something else that you learned as well, wasn't it? You watched some other Christian business owners from your C12 group sell out to private equity guys. What'd you learn from them?

Steve Bock: I learned what I didn't wanna do. At least in most cases, what I observed was that despite all the good intentions when you're at the negotiating table, that every CEO I know of asks for the same thing. I wanna make sure the mission and vision of the company continue and I want to get a fair value for the sale of the company, and I want to take care of my employees.

And so all these promises were made to people that I saw selling their companies. But then once the sale took place, even though they did profit from that sale, one guy in particular was just came to me in tears and said, they've destroyed my company. The company that I steward, that the Lord allowed me to build, doesn't exist anymore. The culture is trashed. The executive staff that I personally trained and they promised they would keep all got fired.

And I'm like, the Lord has more plans for Subsentio and it's not about making money. That's not the reason I started the company in the first place. I really wanted to learn from that and realize that I didn't have a lot of good options. I did look at selling to my family. I have a couple boys that could have probably taken the company, but after talking to them we realized that it would've been difficult for them as well. They would've had the issue of you only got the job because of dad. And there was always that uncertainty about whether or not they could be good leaders or if they just got that because of the relationship with me.

Jim: So what I love about that story is that you learned something. Unfortunately, it's something that, and iWork4Him, we've covered a thousand times maybe, but for sure well over 500, christian guys who the only way they can get any retirement recurring income is to sell their business because all of everything they've got is in their business.

So they need to sell, they need to liquidate in some way, and private equity is an easy route. So they think. But in doing so, the private equity groups that - we've heard this story over and over again - they promised the world, they give you your cash, but after you've turned over the keys, they get to rebuild the engine, however they wanna do it. They could change the paint color. They can do whatever they want because it's theirs.

And so that changed your perspective, but because of C12, you were then introduced to Perpetuate Capital. What did Perpetuate Capital bring to the table for helping you to sell your business but retain the kingdom culture?

Steve Bock: I was fortunate to be introduced to Brandt Brereton at Perpetuate through John Price. And I love Brandt from the very opening line. He said, I made a ton of money in the Silicon Valley as an investment banker, and then the Lord told me to get my hat out of my butt. (chuckling) And so once he said that, I thought I'm gonna get along with this guy really well.

And he walked me through, and he recorded all this on a Zoom video. He walked me through how an ESOP works, an employee stock ownership plan, and it was like manna from heaven for me because not only would I get a good valuation out of that and get the financial rewards, but I would be able to retain the culture. And most importantly, I would be able to turn the company over to the employees so they can continue the mission and the vision of the company.

Jim: I read Brandt's book in order to understand, a lot of people have a bad idea be behind ESOPs. They think that it's too complicated, it's too hard to do. But describe it. How does that ESOP work? Because the employees that are working for you probably didn't have the money to buy out the company. How did they buy? How did you create that? What does it look like? How does it work?

Steve Bock: Yeah, for us it was a complicated transaction because I had given all of my employees options in the company. So in order for the transaction to take place, all the stock needed to be purchased. Not just my stock, but the options holders' as well. But with Brandt's help, and by the way, he has a great team of folks, really solid people, we were able to put together a deal where all the stock was purchased and put in a trust.

So I'm no longer the owner of the company. The employees are, and then over time, the employees are able to, as they retire, cash out and get the benefits of being owners of the company. We were also able to take a portion of my stock and gift it to the National Christian Foundation. So we created a charitable contribution through NCF out of the sale of the stock as well.

Jim: So was it a difficult conversation to explain to your employees how they're gonna become owners as opposed to just being employees? Was that a big shift for them? They had stock options in Subsentio before you created this, but was that a mindset shift for them? Or were they ready for it?

Steve Bock: I think overall it was a pretty easy sale, if I can put it that way. There were folks in the executive staff that had been with me for years that had a pretty large stake in the company. And once they understood what I was trying to do, they were completely behind it. The board that I had at the time, of course, was behind it as well. And then there's my wife, Sonny.

I ended up taking that video that Brandt had made of that first meeting and I said, I really want you to see what this opportunity is. And she stopped me after about 10 minutes, and this is where I get choked up, because I love her so much. Without her, I could not have pulled this off. It was really a godsend for Sonny to come into my life. But she stopped me after about 10 minutes of watching this video and she said, does this mean that I can gift money to Maria?

Now Maria is a missionary that we know in our church. She was raised a Muslim. She converted in India to Christianity and began opening up orphanages and still to this day, goes to India and walks into leper colonies. She's just an amazing woman. Sonny was like, Hey, if we can take the benefits of what the Lord has provided us and gift money to different charities, I'm all in.

Jim: I love that. And I bet your employees were loving that too because they're having an opportunity to say, Hey, we get to perpetuate. We don't have to go find new jobs. We can just make the company that we already love, make it even better and know that it can be there for us and maybe even our kids. Because you had young people on staff as well as people that have been with you for a lot of years, right? You had a whole range of ages.

Steve Bock: I did. Yeah. We have I call 'em kids at my age. (chuckling) But they weren't, when I tell them my 9/11 story there, there's this blank look on their face 'cause they weren't even born yet. So we have everybody from that age group up to people in their sixties. I challenged them and I said, by doing this, in an all hands meeting, I was explaining the benefits of this, one of them is we don't have to pay federal taxes. And so I challenged them and said, what I'd like to do is have set a goal of $10 million in charitable giving in 10 years.

And I don't want that to be just Steve deciding who these charities are. I would love for you guys to set up a committee and decide where we're gonna contribute to. So as I'm talking, I said, just put in the chat. We're on a teams call, put in the chat if you'd like to volunteer. And all of a sudden like everybody's trying to volunteer and get on the committee. And that just thrilled me because we had our first meeting a month ago and I went around the room and told them again, this is your, decision to figure out who to help out.

The chair of the committee said, I would like to contribute to prison ministries. And I'm like, now you're getting the whole story. Because the tagline of "together we're saving lives" is not just saving physical lives. For me and for others that are believers, it also means redemption. For those people that we put away, there's more to their story. And so we're not only saving the physical lives of folks, but we're saving lives for the kingdom.

Jim: There's so much of the story is hardly ever known. So because it was an employee trust and because it's owned by an employee trust, that trust is a nonprofit organization and doesn't have to pay federal taxes. Is that what you mean by that?

Steve Bock: We're still a for-profit company, but because of the laws around ESOPs we don't have to pay federal income taxes. The tax savings that was projected is pretty substantial. It's in the millions of dollars and I'd much rather use that money for Kingdom building rather than giving it to the federal government to kill babies.

Jim: It sounds like Perpetuate Capital did such a great job for you. And I remember reading Brandt's book, wasn't there also a tax advantage to you by selling to a trust or an ESOP as opposed to selling to private equity? 'Cause if you sell to private equity, you get a big check, tons of that percentages are gonna go immediately to taxes. When you putting it into an ESOP, was there a tax advantage to you as well?

Steve Bock: There was. There was something called a 1042 election. Because of how everything shook out, I was on the hook for paying $1.8 million in taxes. But with 1042 election, you're able to reinvest a portion of the proceeds. I did get some cash at close, not 1.8 million, but some cash at close, and I was able to, or I'm in the process, I should say, of reinvesting some of that cash in order to avoid paying any federal income tax on the proceeds.

Jim: Again, things that Perpetuate Capital put in front of you and it orchestrated for you, but it just sounds like... do you feel like it compromised by putting in an ESOP as opposed to selling to private equity? Did you compromise your future and Sonny's future to do it this way?

Steve Bock: No, not at all. I keep playing the song Gratitude over and over, from Brandon Lake, because I don't have the words to express my gratitude to the Lord for what he's done. In the debt stack, it seems like I'm always loading up the truck with debt. We have senior debt. There was a bank that took out the SBA loans. There's junior debt, which is Perpetuate stepped in with some partners. And then i'm carrying a seller note for 12 years, interest bearing note, along with some of the other executives that had a substantial stake in the company. I am so blessed, Jim. I can't - words fail me.

Jim: Wow. I love that. So there's business owners listening today. They're listening to your story and they're fascinated by some of the similarities, some of the things they've heard, some of the things they're experiencing. What's your advice to them as they contemplate their exit strategy. They know they need cash in order to be able to live without running a day-to-day operation, but they also wanna perpetuate their kingdom culture. What's your advice to them today?

Steve Bock: For those of you that are listening that are part of C12, ask yourself this question: if I sell, will the company retain their C12 membership? In most cases, the companies that sell to private equity firms don't. The companies that sell to ESOPs do. And so if you want that culture to continue, which is Kingdom building, using your business as a ministry and all the things that you've done in your company to, honor the Lord, the ESOP is, in my opinion, one of the best ways, if not the best way, to protect that for the kingdom.

It's not about me, it's not about the employees. It's about what God wants to do with Subsentio moving forward. And I don't think he's done with the story yet, because I gave up control. He's calling the shots and he put all the pieces in place for this to happen.

Jim: And there's a lot of Christian business owners out there that haven't had the privilege of being part of a C12 group. We encourage you to go out to C12 group.com, find a group near you. There's hundreds and hundreds of groups and thousands of members across the country. But that comradery really changed your life.

Steve, when you look back at where you were in late 2019 versus where you're today in late 2025, could you ever have imagined the miracle that God did by protecting your culture, your employees, your family, and your mission?

Steve Bock: No, the vision was pretty limited. And someday I'll tell the rest of the story because it's so remarkable. I am the most unlikely person to be running this company. There is just no way. It's a story that only God could come up with. And by the way, he has a pretty good sense of humor. So someday I'll write a book and you'll hear the rest of the story. But when we started, like I said, it was just trying to help cops do their job. And we've done that over and over again.

I think, I was talking to an FBI guy the other day because I'm retiring now that we've got this ESOP done, and I just wanted to thank him and he said that some of the best things I could have ever heard. He said, Steve, Subsentio is a godsend to the FBI, what you guys do.

Jim: That's gotta be cool. So you said you're retiring, but we've had previous conversations, and we both know retirement's not biblical. It just means you're headed into a next phase of life. What's next? Let's give a peek into the future for you and Sonny.

Steve Bock: First of all, I've turned over the company to another guy that I met at C12 Jonathan Litwither. And he's in our prayers as he takes the company moving forward. And then for Sonny and I we are looking forward to whatever's next. I think, being a missionary kid, that's where my heart is, to support missions both locally and overseas. We have a home in Italy and so that can be a base camp to expand to other missions in Europe and in Africa and so on. Much easier to fly out from there.

I kept telling everybody I wanted to, when I retired, to go sit on a rock. And so I did the other day. I walked up, I'm in Colorado, so I walked up to a new trail I hadn't been on, and I found this great rock and I sat on there and what should I read out of this Bible? And I was led to read of all things Ecclesiastes. And chapter three really struck home with me because Solomon talks about the seasons in life. And it was just so appropriate to read that. But then later on in that chapter, he talks about it's okay to eat and drink and be merry and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

This is God's gift to my wife and me to be able to enjoy what we've been provided and then to in turn, give back. We're looking forward to more missions work, more charitable work, and continuing to grow the kingdom in whatever God has in store.

Jim: And my personal hope for you is that you get a chance to share this story personally in front of thousands of Christian business owners to help them make the right decision. How cool would it be before you go to meet the Lord face to face one day that you've helped launch 2000 ESOPs because of your story? How cool would that be? Let's just set that as a goal. 2000 - i'm writing it down right now - ESOPs. I think that would be fantastic. Steve Bock, thanks for sharing your story today.

Steve Bock: Thanks so much, Jim. It's been a pleasure.

Jim: As I close out today's show, I wanna make sure you know how to get ahold of Perpetuate Capital, Perpetuate Capital.com. Pay attention. Your life's work is reflected in the spiritual legacy you leave behind when you sell your business. Why would you let that spiritual legacy get destroyed in weeks or months? Perpetuate Capital can help. Perpetuate Capital.com.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim Brangenberg. I'm a Christ follower. My workplace, it's my mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.