3/5/25 - 2084: Your Story, His Glory

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place, where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: The power of story is unmatched by any other medium of communication. If it wasn't so powerful Hollywood would be irrelevant. So what about your story? Do people know your story? Do they know your whole story, including and especially when your life intersected with Jesus?

Do your kids know your story? Your grandkids, do your coworkers know your story? Sometimes it just takes a kick in the pants to get us to document our story, organize our story and get it written down. It's so important that your spiritual legacy is documented so that it's easier for you to reiterate when the time presents itself, and it's equally important for passing on to the generations to come. But how do you get started? Today we head off to Texas to talk with renowned memoir writer, Chad Harbour. He's going to tell us about his mission field from God. Chad Harbour, welcome to iWork4Him.

Chad Harbour: Thank you, Jim. Thank you, Martha. It's an honor and pleasure to be with you today.

Jim: All right. So Chad, we do this at every show for guests that are on for the very first time. Chad, what's your Jesus story?

Chad Harbour: Raised by two wonderful parents. They were devout Christians from the youngest time I can remember. We'd attend church every single Sunday, and then go to Ho Jo's afterwards.

Jim: Nice! That would be howard johnson's for those of you too young to know what Ho Jo's is.

Martha: That's right.

Chad Harbour: That's right. Thank you. Thank you.

Jim: They had those amazing ice cream sundaes it's all I remember about hojo's is after lunch they had chocolate fudge sundaes. All right, sorry

Chad Harbour: Stop it now. (laughter) Okay, so So, you know devout Christian myself, I didn't really become born again until I was in high school. I attended a revival in philadelphia with a good friend of mine and that's when I came to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. And I've been on the journey ever since, trying to be the best Christian I can and work for Him.

Jim: So at what point in time, you said in high school, was there a certain event that kicked you into gear in high school that said, Hey, I gotta make this my own faith.

Chad Harbour: It's a good question. And I just thought of this while you were asking it. My brother was a manager of a gas station when he was in college and I was the assistant manager. And back in the day, there wasn't that much traffic. So I opened up a Bible one day and started reading it from the New Testament, from front to cover, from front to end. And it really motivated me to really, think harder about my faith and how Jesus could be more inspiration to me and listen to his word, pray more. And that's when I decided to go to that revival in Philadelphia. And that's when I came to Christ.

Martha: That's so good. So we know that there is a lot of power, excuse me, power in telling stories. Where did you learn to help other people tell their stories?

Chad Harbour: As they say so often, it's all about the story. I started journaling when my first child was born 31 years ago, and I became a very passionate journaler. I journaled about my family, my dogs, my cooking, my, my faith. I journaled every little bit about the business I was in at the time.

And as I became more passionate about journaling I started helping people journal. I started writing stories for people. And I retired out of private equity at 50 years old. And I decided that I wanted to help other people more significantly tell their story. So I started a company where I write private memoirs and company history books for clients. So in the 31 years I've been doing this, I've written over 230 books for clients.

When I write these private memoirs for clients, there's chapters in the book. For example, grandparents, parents, childhood years, teenage years, college, military, career, getting married, kids. And there's also a chapter for those Christian clients I have called faith and in each chapter there's a bunch of questions that I can read and ask the question and then I type the answer that my client tells me under that question.

So it came to me one day, when I was running, God spoke to my heart. He goes: hey, you got this great chapter called Faith in your template when you interview your clients. Why don't you put that on a website? Why don't you have 16 chapters, have questions that are faith based questions on this website, in the cloud, on this platform, and then people can write their faith story, because nothing is more important than telling your faith story. Your spiritual life story. It's the most important thing we can do. It's the great commission. Jesus calls us to tell others about him and to bring people to Christ.

There's no other resource that I know of that allows you to do this in a platform where you can answer these questions about your faith in these 16 chapters and then print it as a book, and there you go. So spirituallifestories. com is an easy to use platform where subscribers can write their faith journey. Users can create a book.

Jim: I was going to say we learned from the Old Testament the power of passing on stories from generation to generation, because we know that Moses was the first one to write them down.

And by that point in time, the Israelites were 500 years old. The first time anybody wrote anything down in the Old Testament was Moses, right? Actually the story of Job, but Moses didn't write Job but the traditions to build a, pass on the histories from all of the Israelites from the beginning of time until the time of Moses, he had to capture all of that. Before that it was all verbal tradition, passing them on and passing them on. And frankly, I don't know how they didn't embellish more because that's what the Greeks did.

Martha: That's what you tend to do when you tell a story, right Jim? (laughter)

Jim: The stories just get better and better with years. These guys kept the stories to history.

Chad Harbour: So Jim, you're exactly right. The Bible is the greatest, the most popular, most bought book, given book in the world. What is the Bible? It's a bunch of people, apostles, disciples, prophets, telling the story that's inspired by God. Jesus was a great storyteller. To tell our story in the hopes that maybe something in your book that you write on spirituallifestories. com will inspire, motivate, encourage someone to come to Christ. Maybe there's a grandchild out there, a child who's a little wayward. They need to come back into the fold and reading his grandma, his mom, his dad's story from spirituallifestories. com. will help them get back on the Jesus path.

Martha: I love this, because as I think about our listeners and even ourselves, there are so many things in our families that we assume we've told everybody, right? But yet, we run that risk of not sharing some very important details. And I love that your experience of journaling that you did personally.

God prepared you for this season where you're helping other people. It makes me think of like when somebody hires a coach because they know they should exercise. They probably even know what exercises they need to do, but they don't do them on their own. And you're giving this tool that people can use in a way to take them on that journey that they really know that they should do or that they, it's a discipline that they'd like to take place, but they're not doing it.

And you are you're making that a possibility through the spirituallifestories. com. And I just love that. So can we talk now about how it works a little bit?

Chad Harbour: Sure. So it is a subscriber based model. So you can go to the site. There's a button at the top that says explore. It'll take you through the site. There's a video on there.

Jim: The site is spirituallifestories. com.

Martha: And we'll put that in the show notes for everybody.

Chad Harbour: So as Spiritual Life Stories allows you to write your faith based story. So you can sign up, you can create a book cover, you can answer these questions that are in 16 chapters, for example, in the grandparents chapter. What faith were your grandparents? What denomination? Did they take you to their church? Did they have a favorite Bible verses? Did they ever read a child's Christian book to you? So there's a bunch of questions like that in the Grandparents chapter. And each chapter has these faith based questions. So you can answer those questions you want.

You don't have to answer all of them. There's over 300 questions. . And you don't have to write. There's voice to text. Perfect for those saying, oh, I don't want to write, it takes too much time. I just hit a button on the screen that says talk now, and boom. It uses AI to write, to take your voice and create the text for you. Now you got to go back and look at the text to make sure it's accurate, but it's about 95 percent.

Jim: Or, if you want to keep it interesting for your kids, don't read it. That's why the game Mad Gap was so much fun. You had to figure out what people were telling. But this, and I want to get back to this in a second Chad, but we just, knowing that the power of story is so, it's gripping as I mentioned in the opening. I mean if story wasn't so powerful Hollywood would be irrelevant, which is an idea to make Hollywood irrelevant. (laughing) But there's been so many great things coming out of Hollywood. Look at the chosen series, taking the gospels and exploding them with story so that we can experience Jesus in a more full manner. Obviously they had to build story around it, but it helps you really understand the humanity of Jesus.

We've got a sponsor, we've got a supporter that's got an incredible story, and that comes along the powerful tool, and that story comes the story of SaferNet, a tool developed to protect every device that you've got every whether it's your phone or your your laptop or your iPad or any kind of tablet or your desktop. Yes, we still use all of those things.

SaferNet protects them with a VPN, website filters, antivirus protection 24/ 7. And just, Chad right now is calling in from a hotel in some unnamed city in Nevada. He wouldn't have to worry about all about connecting to the wifi there. That'd be wifi for those of you that don't understand. And he wouldn't have to worry at all if he had SaferNet because SaferNet keeps you hidden.

It's unbelievable. God's given SaferNet the ability to protect us so we can do the work we've been called to do. You can use SaferNet to help do that as well. SaferNet. com. That's SaferNet. com. Chad, unfortunately couldn't have Cindy Beckman join us today to share her story. She's been one of your clients that use the platform, the subscription platform, which by the way, when people hear the word subscription, they're thinking, Oh brother, this is going to be wicked expensive, but it's not, is it Chad?

Chad Harbour: I won't say it's cheap. Everybody thinks everything on the internet should be free. We've spent a lot of time developing this platform over the last three years. And I'm not going to say it's cheap, but if you think about your life story, your spiritual life story, I would hope that most people would agree that $ 100 for a two year subscription that also includes the first book free. So 100, two years. Subscription and the first book you print is free.

Jim: A hundred bucks. You can't even go out for dinner for four people for a hundred bucks anymore. And if you can't even go buy a couple dozen eggs for a hundred bucks anymore. You gotta take a loan out to get eggs. (laughter)

That's right. All right, so Cindy Beckman was gonna join us. She wasn't able to join us today. Tell us how Cindy got connected with spiritual life stories.com and how, tell us what some of her story that you think she would've told us.

Chad Harbour: She found out about me from either social media or some platform. And she just signed up and started writing a book and she texted me and said, Hey, I'm on this spiritual life story. I think you're the founder and I love it. I've been looking for something like this for years. It's easy to use, you can add pictures, you can print the book, and this is just what I needed, because I need to get my story out to my family.

And sure, I tell them about this and that, about my faith, but this really makes me think, and it helps me codify what is the most important thing in my life, and that's spiritual life stories. Or my faith, my story, sorry.

Martha: You know, it's encouraging when you hear somebody who's " I've been looking for/ this answers it." you gave us some examples of some of the questions that are asked, and I can see how valuable they are, because I tell you, it's been a long time since I've thought about what did my grandparents read to me, or did they take me to their church, which in fact they did, and I have a wonderful spiritual legacy through my grandparents.

But to be prompted, to be given those prompts that help you to record something that's lasting for the family. We were just talking about the pricing of the subscription. My goodness, what an easy Christmas gift. I just think like this is something that you can give to someone that can, you're giving a gift that's going to last for generations.

Jim: And since there's less than 10 months of shopping until Christmas, you could get signed up today at spirituallifestories. com. Get it done and get it printed in time for Christmas 2025.

Martha: That's awesome.

Jim: Chad did not pay me to say that, just so you know, I just thought of that on my own.

Chad Harbour: I'll give a donation.

Jim: Okay, iWork4Him. com forward slash donate.

Chad Harbour: Yeah, I saw that and you can add as I said, you can add pictures in here and you know It's also a button you can hit that says I want to gift this to someone, you type in their name, their email and they get an email says. Hey It's Chad here. I just signed you up. I've paid for your subscription. So here you go. Go get them.

Martha: Awesome. So that takes care of the gifting right there. Everybody can get ready for Christmas 2025.

Jim: I love that you can add pictures. Not only can you talk to text it, but you can add pictures, because pictures are worth a thousand words, they say. But also when you have a picture book, it's easier to read it.

Martha: Yeah, that's so neat.

Chad Harbour: They do say that a photo is worth a thousand words, but I started journaling because God spoke to my heart. He said hey, maybe it's a thousand words that makes the picture.

Jim: You know when you read, those pictures come to your head. I mean you start developing - I'm an avid fiction reader. I've read thousands of fiction books over my lifetime and you get into that universe when you're reading that story. It's, you can imagine it, you can live it, you can feel the emotions, that's what's beautiful, and that's what's so powerful about hearing other people's stories, right Martha?

Martha: And we love hearing other people's stories, and that is really what started iWork4Him. When we were sharing our story and our experiences of connecting our faith and work and starting to hear other people share their stories of how God was showing them purpose in their work.

And you can listen to our podcast on whatever that favorite platform is that you're listening on right now. Or if you're watching this on YouTube, I just want to encourage you to subscribe to stay in touch and hear more amazing stories every week. We are so grateful for you tuning in and hearing stories like Chad's.

Chad Harbour: So Chad, you are equipping other people to share their whole life story. Have you ever written your story in book form?

Let me reach over here. Excuse me a little bit. Here is the book. (showing book to camera) Now I'm going to put out a number of volumes of it.

Martha: Okay.

Chad Harbour: But can you see it?

Martha: Yes, we can.

Chad Harbour: My life story. So this is volume one of my book. And you see it's my life story. And so one unique thing we do in this in our platform is we have a table of contents. And because we're not going in to edit the person's material, we're not going in to modify it, embellish it, so essentially the platforms has a question. And then you type or voice detects the answer, and that question and answer is then put into the book, like this.

Jim: Nice. And what you're looking at, in case you're not on YouTube and you're listening to it on a regular podcast platform - you should go out to YouTube and check it out iWork4Him on YouTube - but you can see, it takes all those words spoken and puts them in book form. So Chad, how many pages is volume one of Chad Harbour's story?

Chad Harbour: Ha, I think it's 375.

Jim: Oh my word. Now, have any of your kids read it yet?

Chad Harbour: I'd say yes. They kinda live remote from me and I need to get it to 'em but I wanted to show you something else. So there are my grandparents.

Jim: Oh, nice. A color picture in there.

Chad Harbour: Yeah, there's the picture of them. And as you can see, there's my Harbour grandparents. So you have a question and you have an answer, question, answer. And um, it's just a wonderful thing to be able to do for your family.

So if you think about it, what do we do all day? We call our kids. We talk to our friends. We tell them what we did today. We tell them a joke. We tell them what Netflix show we're watching. We're texting our family. We're texting about this and that. We spend a lot of time all day long talking and texting and doing these things to communicate. Why don't we tell our faith story? It's the most important thing we can do. It's the number one thing in our life. Jesus is our number one thing. How are we going to tell other people about our faith in hopes that we can bring more people to Christ?

This is hopefully the platform that allows people to do that, to engage in writing their faith story. And hopefully someone reads their book, a family member who might be a little sideways, and brings them back to Christ.

Jim: So talk about that deal, Chad. Somebody goes on to spirituallifestories. com. How much are they going to pay? How long do they have to get the book written?

Chad Harbour: Okay. So it's 100 for a subscription. You have two years to write your story. I wrote mine in about four days. The first volume. Most people will take four months, but okay. That's what I do. I'm a writer. But you have two years. And you get the first book printed free.

Jim: Nice. Nice.

Chad Harbour: And you don't have to answer all the questions. You answer those questions that you feel are germane to you and that you want to answer. And let me mention something else. This is what's really powerful to me. When I was answering these questions, I really felt that the Holy Spirit was working in me and helping me answer the questions.

Because I get on a question and say, I'm not sure what I'm going to say. And then I just start typing and then start typing and it would come to me. . And I really believe that when you engage in a platform like this, where you're talking about your faith and you're hoping that it inspires and motivates and encourage other people, that the Holy Spirit is working in you.

Martha: . Amen. Amen.

Jim: And we're hopeful that this will inspire everybody listening to document your story because your story needs to be documented. We documented our story in a little bit of it in iWork4Him, in our book, iWork4Him, and Martha's dad's story is documented in both iWork4Him and iRetire4Him. Martha's story is documented even more in sheWorks4Him.

So we've done this, but we'd like you, our listeners, to document your story. Do it for your children, your grandchildren, your great grandchildren, the ones you may never even meet. Do it for your neighbors. Do it for the people that you went to college with. Get your story out there. We found this resource. We want to make sure you knew about it. We want you to meet Chad Harbour. Go to spirituallifestories. com. Chad Harbour, thanks for bringing this resource to iWork4Him.

Chad Harbour: I appreciate your time. God bless you both and iWork4Him too.

Martha: Awesome.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

2/26/25 - 2083: Faith Under Fire

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place, where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Well, let's find out right now.

Jim: You know, Jesus is pretty clear in John 16:33, he said, "in this world, you will have trouble, but take heart. I have overcome the world." Now he starts that sentence with, "I have told you these things so that in me, you may have peace." How can we have peace when we're facing adversity? What do we do when we face adversity in our work? And the final, most important question is, is there an upside to adversity? You know, Martha and I moved to Southwest Missouri a few years ago, and in that small amount of time, we have both plugged in pretty heavily here in the town.

We're involved in rehabbing old buildings, involved in economic development. Martha is now running the annual city festival. We're hosting a weekly news podcast right here for our town and still working with iWork4Him. What's amazing to us is that not everyone appreciates the volunteer work we're doing. We've faced amazing adversity in this town. And we have had to decide how to respond. While living out our Christian faith at work, Jesus promised us trouble. Did he tell us how to deal with it? We think he did. And that's what this podcast is all about today. So Martha, we've faced adversity in the past. Why does this adversity feel different?

Martha: Well, I think it's interesting, Jim, just even as you were talking in the opening, like we right now are not facing a lot of adversity in what most people would consider our traditional work, mainly because we just work with each other. Right? So in our volunteer, in this time where we're using our gifts, talents and abilities for the community, you know, when you're doing things out of the goodness of your heart, it's a lot harder to face that adversity, I think. I think that's why it feels different, because it's one thing if I've made a work decision and I'm reprimanded, right? Or I do something that causes conflict within my work, I have that scope of that, but as a volunteer and as somebody who just is looking for ways to do good for others, when you face adversity, it's quite surprising.

Jim: It's been frustrating, but when you put it in the proper perspective - and we're just being, we just thought today we'd do a podcast that was just a "Be Real with Jim and Martha" podcast (laughing)

Martha: Wait a second, we are always real, but we're just talking about our own situation.

Jim: Yes, we are. We're talking about our own situation instead of covering somebody else's. You know, God plucked us out of Southwest Florida, where we lived in Florida for 20 years and shoved us into Southwest Missouri because of our daughter, our youngest daughter, married a boy from this little town and we love it here, Marionville, Missouri. Come visit us one day. Come spend some time with us at our coffee shop once it's open.

We love it here and God's opened up doors for us to plug in our gifts, talents, abilities into this town, including doing a podcast, which if you want to check out our podcast, that's local and inviting. It's called The Good Place Marionville podcast. Just look it up on YouTube: Good Place Marionville.

Martha: We could put it in the show links.

Jim: We could. What an amazing idea. We've never done a news show before, but that's what we're doing. Just covering the good that God is doing. Well, really the good that's happening in town. We attribute it to God. Not everybody in town does that, but what was amazing is that we opened up our building to community meetings. We have just tried to help wherever we can help because we're empty nesters. We've got time.

And not everybody appreciates it. In fact at the last alderman meeting, we were on the agenda because we were holding a meeting for free out of the goodness of our heart in one of our buildings And some people didn't appreciate that.

Martha: And so why is that surprising to you?

Jim: I don't know! Because we're just trying to help and that's all we're trying to do. We're just trying to help. And I understand some people don't necessarily appreciate that. They all know that we're doing it out of our faith in Christ. They all know that our motivation is that our lives have been transformed by Christ, and therefore we just want to help people. We want other people to experience the really cool stuff that Jesus has done for us.

And we're not out there proselytizing on the street corners, but we have spent a lot of time praying for people. In fact, I pray at every city council meeting now. I don't know, it surprised us because ... I don't know, it just hurt our feelings. We're just trying to help.

Martha: So, let's talk about our response, because it's incredibly important to be Christ like, right?

Jim: Ha ha. So, our response was, just don't say anything. Because that was the better thing to do. And our response in moving forward is, okay, if that's what the city council wants, we'll move the locations of our meeting.

Martha: But I think in general, like, I mean, let's talk about our responses to everything that we do. Not just a specific one.

Jim: So our response was, Okay, our feelings have been hurt. All we were trying to do was help. And so when your feelings get hurt as a guy, you get angry. When your feelings get hurt, typically as a woman, you cry. I would love to have just cried. It would have been way better than getting angry, but I just was like, really? I mean, why would you attack us? We didn't do anything.

But our response, Jesus was really clear. He told us, love God, love our neighbors. That was the summary, basically, of the Old Testament. Love God, love your neighbor. But then he went on to say, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. So that's our only choice. Love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you. That's what Jesus said to do.

Martha: You know, and I think it's important in all circumstances, so not just in a specific one, but in all circumstances to number one, we have a choice of whether we see somebody as a neighbor or an enemy.

Jim: But the response is the same. We're supposed to love them.

Martha: Right. But it's a whole lot different internally when you say I'm loving my neighbor or I'm loving my enemy. And naming them as an enemy can be very dangerous. And so I don't think that adversity automatically means someone is our enemy.

And I think that this is really dangerous in 2025, where the media for the last several years has only shown us the only way to approach adversity is to fight. And that is such a wrong approach. That's not the biblical approach.

Jim: And a lot of times people who we come across as our enemies, we're not understanding them. They're not understanding us and therefore they're pushing back or they may actually be you know, just as Martha taught me so many years ago: hurting people hurt people. So it could be that the people that have said things about us negatively are just, they're hurting people. So that's why Jesus told us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute you. Why? Because they're likely hurting.

Martha: So let's put it in the context of work for people that are listening and I go back to the days when we were running an insurance agency and we had some clients, some customers that tended to lash out at me doing customer service, not because of the work I was doing, but because their feelings were hurt. Their bill, you know, wasn't what they wanted it to be, or they had a claim, and I think my response even then was incredibly critical, and you gave me permission in that moment when we had customers that got ugly because they weren't getting ugly at me. I had done nothing to hurt them directly, but they didn't like the situation and they would take it out. Often people do on customer service, right?

And you said, Martha, you need to tell people when they're getting ugly with you that they do not have permission to talk to me that way and I have permission to hang up the phone right now if they're going to keep talking that way. And that really was a level of respect that got to get communicated. And so I always appreciated that because nobody has to be ugly in order to get problems solved. And we have been living in an era where that has not been what has been modeled very well.

Jim: Discourse. We've forgotten how to actually have conversations with people. If you have a conflict with somebody, just talk to them about it, people. Seriously, just have a conversation.

Martha: And even, and even beyond that, Jim, something you've taught me is to ask questions. Don't just assume that we understand. Ask questions. Tell me where this is coming from. I want to better understand. In fact, we just had a conversation this week, you mentioned the coffee shop that we're going to be opening and we've been talking with some people that are like, I'd like to have hard conversations around a table, like open it up and say, hey, on Tuesday morning, this pastor or this citizen or this person, whatever, is going to be talking and have an open round table talking about some hard topic so that we can get in the practice and work that out.

You know, just be able to show what it means to have good conversation where we don't necessarily see eye to eye. So I think a lot of people find adversity in their work and don't know what to do with it because it's either fine, I'm just going to leave.

Jim: Take my ball and go home.

Martha: Or your briefcase or whatever it might be for your work.

Jim: All right. So when our days are or weeks are tough or years are tough, where do we go for encouragement?

Martha: Well, we have learned over the years about praying together in our work, especially when there's conflict or frustration or we're hitting a, you know, a blank wall or whatever you might want to say, where we just, you know, it's tough, then we say, okay, let's just stop and pray with each other.

But I want to share something. I shared this in a ladies group recently, and I thought that this would be a really good place to share it as well. And I'm holding up on the video, an ornament of an elephant.

Jim: It's a white elephant.

Martha: Yeah, it's just because it's the wood, but the point of this was that, okay, I've never in my life wanted anybody to call me an elephant, but after I read this, I'm going to challenge each and every one of you to be the elephant. Okay, and it's a story of love and loyalty, and it goes like this. In the wild, female elephants are known as fierce protectors. And when one of their sisters is suffering, they circle up around her. They close in tight, watch guard, and even kick dust around her to mask her vulnerable scent from predators.

And yet, we are the same. This is who we are and who we are meant to be for each other. Sometimes we are the ones in the middle. Sometimes we are the one kicking up dust with fierce love. But the circle remains. And then this card says "thank you for being my elephant." And I think this really symbolizes in a lot of ways what believers need to do for each other, lift each other up, protect each other, not to say like I don't want, you know, anybody to get in but protect them so they can be who they were meant to be and keep off the predators by supporting each other.

And for us, we know that that circle includes praying for each other and encouraging each other, seeing the gifts and talents and abilities that God's given us, and then allowing them to live that out so they can live another day without that adversity.

Jim: I think it's so important that we have somebody we can go to when we're having a tough day. Somebody that will go, Hey, Jesus said you're going to have a tough day. Just, it's not the end of the world. Not every day is going to be like this. Don't respond. Wait till tomorrow to send that email back that you need to send, or that you want to send right now, or whatever it is, or text message, or instant message, or phone call.

Go to somebody who doesn't have skin in the game, who is an encourager, but will also speak truth into you. Because a lot of times when we get, we face adversity, we get discouraged, we just want to quit, or we just want to walk away, or we just want to smack somebody! I've never wanted to do that openly, but in my head, sometimes I want to say things that I shouldn't say, but we need somebody that's going to be that for us. Sometimes it could be different people, but you know, go ahead.

Martha: Well, I just was going to say, you know, that for us, like I mentioned before, prayer has been a really vital part of our journey, both professionally and personally. Ever since our very first date, you and I have prayed together daily and when things are tough at work or home, we do stop and pray.

Now. It hasn't always been that way. That's something we've learned along the way, but I just wanna encourage listeners about the iWork4Him Nation Covenant that we have on our website. It has been adopted by thousands of people with the very same goal to commit their workplace as their mission field, and to commit to pray for those they work with.

And eventually, pray with them, too. So just imagine the encouragement you can bring to your work when you pray for your co workers and start praying with them when the opportunity arises. So I just want to encourage you to go to iWork4Him. com forward slash JoinTheNation and learn more and start making that change in your work happen.

Jim: Yeah. No. I would also encourage you, if you're watching this on YouTube, which is fun, you'll see that I'm in a really heavy sweater today because, you know, it is really cold in Southwest Missouri today. But what's really cool about Southwest Missouri, last Sunday it was 50, next Monday it'll be 63. Today, 8 below zero!

Martha: Actually, by the time this show releases, it'll be springtime, practically.

Jim: Y'all in shorts and a t shirt. Southwest Missouri. Come here for the weather. (chuckles)

All right. One of my favorite verses - and I grew up in Minnesota, I mean, I don't know if everybody listening knows. I grew up, Minnesota. I'm kind of a mutt. I was born in New Jersey, lived in Maryland til I was 8. Moved to Minnesota just after my eighth birthday and we had this saying in Minnesota, no good deed goes unpunished. I don't know. I don't know where it came from. I should have done some research, some etymological research on where did that come from.

 Ten, fifteen years ago I was reading through Galatians and I ran across this verse. And it is my absolute, one of my favorite fun verses. Okay, because Paul writes to the Galatians, and in 6:9 Galatians 6:9 He says "so let's not get tired of doing what is good. At just the right time we will reap a harvest of blessing if we don't give up." And why did Paul write that to the Galatians?

Well, of course, because no good deed goes unpunished, because why would you get tired of doing what's good? Because if you're doing what's good and you're constantly being rewarded and people are saying, thank you, you will want to keep doing it forever. But you will grow tired of doing good if no good deed goes unpunished. That's Jim's theological opinion. But I am pretty sure that it's true.

Martha: Well, I love breaking the verse down and looking at each part of it because we don't need to sit on the :no good deed goes unpunished." We, what we need to sit in is the promises that God gives us. And he says, don't grow weary of, tired of doing good. Don't get tired of it because it is a good thing. And then he says at just the right time we will reap a harvest of blessing if we don't give up.

Jim: So, two years from now, we want you to send an email to Jim at iWork4Him. com. That's Jim at IWork, the number 4 him, dot com, or Martha at the same thing at iWork4Him. com. And ask us, have we started to reap a harvest of blessing?

Martha: Oh, we already have.

Jim: Right, we have, but.

Martha: Okay, so you're saying like a Bill and Ted thing? Where you go back in time.

Jim: I want somebody two years from now to ask us, okay, going back to March of 2025, because this show's releasing at the end of February of 2025. So in 2027, somebody sent us an email and go, so, so, did God deliver on Galatians 6: 9 for you? (silence)

 (laughing) Okay, we're not supposed to have dead air time.

Martha: (laughing) Well, I didn't know where you were going with that.

Jim: I think it'd be good for people to give us some perspective.

Martha: But I think the key, is that God's timing is not our timing, and we do not understand it. I just posted a verse last night on my Instagram story, Proverbs 3:5- 6. And remember, the key part of that that in 2024 really taught us a lot, Jim, was that we're not to lean on our own understanding. We have finite minds. We, we only understand so much. And there is, there is way more that we don't understand that God does. And trust, we say, oh, it's so, you know, yeah, just trust him.

Yeah, that's pretty hard because we don't have complete understanding of the events. So trusting him every day to take that next step and to walk in the obedience that he's called us to. And then just keep our eyes on that. Boy, that can be hard. I think about the situations people might be dealing with in their work and how hard it is.

Jim: Lots of people are getting laid off. We know several people, lots of people losing jobs across the country. What do you do with that? You know, I think it's really important to, how we're supposed to respond when we're attacked? Okay. David, King David, was chosen to be king when he was a teenager, early teens, likely, somewhere between 13 and 16.

And he didn't become king until he was 30 years old. And in all of that time between when he was anointed by Samuel and brought onto the throne in Hebron, in just Judea and in Judah and Benjamin, and those tribes, when he was 30 years old, and then later at 36 or 37 for the rest of Israel, what happened?

Well, his boss, the king, started chasing after him, trying to kill him. His best friend Jonathan's dad.

Martha: That is like a tangled web when you think about it.

Jim: That's right. And I've seen it. When you love on an enemy, eventually, they could become a friend. Once you actually have a chance to really understand them, you know, but I always pray when I have people that are persecuting me or enemies, Lord, give me a chance to serve them. I just want to serve them.

Martha: You know, but I think about, Jim, all of the Psalms that David wrote through the years and even though he knew that he knew that he knew that he was anointed, he had ups and downs. He questioned God. He said you know, oh my heart is so, you know, in distress,

Jim: yeah, God, what are you doing?

Martha: But at the same time he would then be like, God, I see your plan and I love you and I praise you and I thank you. And you know, we are like that every day. It's really hard sometimes in the midst of our own adversities to see what the purpose might be or where it's going to go. And we don't have the privilege of... he was physically told he was going to be the king, you know, but he still had to wait a lot of years. So it's amazing how all of that can teach us lessons.

Jim: And we're watching the chosen series right now, which just really puts the life of Jesus into hollywood action, and it's so It's fun to see it. I mean, it's scripturally based. Obviously, they add some storyline to it. But you talk about adversity. I mean, all Jesus did was heal people, love people, take good care of people. And all the religious people wanted to do was kill him. Because why? Because they were threatened by what he was doing.

And he claimed to be the Messiah. And they're like, Well, but if you're the Messiah, we don't believe you and it's an inconvenient truth and we're gonna kill you. So talk about adversity. You know, speaking of adversity, Martha, have you ever felt like everything's going wrong? Yeah, we had a whole year like that.

 Well back when we owned an insurance agency, we often had clients tell us that when they were going through a divorce or something else was really hard, I mean people would tell us it wasn't uncommon for someone to have an accident because they were distracted with other elements of their life. In fact, if you're listening to this and you're going through a divorce, just have other people drive you because you are almost 100 likely to have an accident. Ultimately, it was like everything was going wrong for these people.

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All right, Martha.

Martha: I wasn't gonna say desk or desktops because I thought that sounded, you know, we're admitting that we're using a tower, but actually we do for the studio. (laughing)

Jim: Hey, at Costco, they've got Dell towers so cheap. Phenomenal deals. That's what we use in our studio.

Martha: Shout out to Costco, I guess (laughter)

Jim: Another free advertising right here. All right bottom line this: when we're facing adversity, what do we need to do?

Martha: Definitely pray . Be in the Word. My sister gave me a book by ... it's a gal, her website is clearly stated and a lot of people will know who she is if you follow her on Instagram.

Jim: Free plug right here on iWork4Him.

Martha: Oh, yes, but her name. Her name is C L E E R E, so it just kind of is cute because it's like clearly stated. Anyway, she wrote a book of prayers when you're going through difficult times, and I am not always a big prayer reader, but sometimes God gives people words and puts them articulately in a way that speaks to your heart.

Jim: That would be like the Psalms?

Martha: Yes. But, you know, having those resources to help you when you can't articulate things for yourself. So I would say praying alone, praying with others, having other people lifting you up.

Jim: Have a network of people that you reach out to and say, Hey, pray for me, please, right now.

Martha: Yeah. And it might be, Hey, I'm going into a meeting with that person at work that I don't get along with or that complained about me or whatever, you know, pray for me that I use good words and that I have a good attitude or, you know, whatever it might be. That's huge.

And then being the elephant for other people, I think it's so important because sometimes we don't have the energy ourselves to - well, we don't, we need to trust in the Lord and, and let Him be our ultimate support - but physically having community, I have women friends all over the country. They're not literally standing around me, you know, kicking up the dust, but I know that I can go to them and they're there for me and they'll pray for me. And that is amazing, speaks volumes, somebody willing to go to the throne room of heaven on your behalf.

Jim: Absolutely. And to have the perspective, yes, Jesus said, love our enemies, pray for those who persecute you, but to have the perspective that the people that likely are causing adversity in your life are hurting people. And if they don't know Jesus, you know why they're hurting, because they've got no hope. And if they do know Jesus and they're hurting you, what's going on in their lives that's causing them to lash out? Most of the time, they're acting out in order to get somebody's attention to say, Hey, I am hurting, people, can somebody help me?

Martha: Well, that's what I was going to say. At the beginning of the show, you hit on a phrase that's actually one of your favorite verses.

Jim: Is there an upside to adversity? Absolutely, God uses adversity in our lives to take us from who we are to who He can use more effectively. Os Hillman wrote a book, I can't remember back when, 2010, 2012, but he wrote one book called The Upside of Adversity. If you're going through adversity, I highly recommend you get this book. You can find it on Amazon. You can also find it on TGIFbookstore. com. Upside of Adversity. Upside of adversity. Get a copy of the book.

Martha: What does that book tell people, Jim? That there is an upside of adversity?

Jim: God uses adversity in our lives to shape us and to take us from who we are to who he can use more effectively. Take Joseph, for instance. God brought a lot of adversity into Joseph's life as a teenager, and look what it did. He went from being kind of a privileged kid to the leader of the second in command to the most powerful country in the world.

But it's our understanding from watching scripture and reading it in his life that the hard things that he had to do, what we look at him being in, you know, first of all, being ridiculed by his brothers and sent to slavery and put in jail and all of the things. God used those to mold him into someone that he could use more effectively when the time was right. He could have become bitter, but he became better.

Martha: Amen. Let's do that.

Jim: That's right. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.

1/29/25 - 2079: Your Hiring Game Plan

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of Collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: We are your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place, where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Well, let's find out right now.

Jim: You know, as believers, many of us are leaders who are hiring people to fill positions. How do we hire the right people every time? Seems like the most elusive question on the planet. You can't really hire the right people all the time, can you?

Well, probably not, but you can give yourself a first rate chance, can't you? It's amazing that hiring within most organizations is treated like a necessary evil instead of an incredible opportunity to help organizations grow and flourish, at the same time blessing a new hire with a new family. Think of all the detail that Jesus went through to hire the 12 disciples.

I mean, one hire went bad and the other 11 transformed the world. Will your next hire do that? Bob Spence is my mentor, a friend, and on our iWork4Him Board of Directors. Bob is an expert in hiring and has written an incredible book on hiring that I literally could not put down. And I don't say that lightly. Written as a story, Bob's latest book is an incredible resource that every person who needs to hire someone must read today. Bob Spence, it's not your first time, so welcome back to iWork4Him.

Bob Spence: Thanks, Jim. Thanks, Martha. Glad to be back.

Jim: You know, it's funny, Bob. The first time you were on iWork4Him, you were a guest of our guest host, Ross Harrop, when you were serving as a chair for Convene. Over the last 10 years, Bob, what's God had you up to?

Bob Spence: It's interesting. I moved to Florida not just for the good weather. But I also moved here,

Jim: but mostly for the good weather. . (laughing)

Bob Spence: I moved here for Convene, but it didn't work out, so I'm not with Convene. But over the last 10 years since then, God has put me in a position to write this book, and the book is about hiring and it also is about your faith. And also, during those years, I've been working on men's ministry at the church and things like that. So, he's kept me going forward, and as my grandmother said, he's kept me happy in the Lord.

Martha: Mm. I love that. And while you've been happy in the Lord, you have also had hiring as really one of your, a forte for you for decades. Where did you get all of your hiring experience?

Bob Spence: Believe it or not, in the public schools, and it wasn't as a student in the public schools, but I was a high school principal and was hiring teachers. I didn't know what to do. And so I met a gentleman by the name of Ken Cardinal, and he was superintendent of the Kent, Ohio schools. And I expressed to him my concerns and he introduced me to a group in Lincoln, Nebraska that had a teacher perceiver interview. So I learned that and then I stayed in touch with Ken over the years and he taught me hiring is simple, Bob.

It's a discovery process. And he mentored me throughout and then he eventually sold me his structured interviews that I had helped write some of them with him. And as I thought about that discovery process, in fact, that's the subtitle of the book, a discovery process. And if you take time to discover everything you can about a candidate before you make the offer, you're going to be a lot happier. But most companies don't do that.

Martha: How many, how many people do you think you've hired over the years, Bob?

Bob Spence: Personally, my own business is like 25. But helping clients hire, I've helped hire over 300 key executives. I've done over 6, 000 interviews. I quit counting at 6, 000 because it got to the point it was ridiculous.

Jim: That's awesome. We've done almost 6, 000 interviews over 12 years. Bob references his book. Here's the book, A Game Plan for Hiring the Right People, Game Plan for Hiring the Right People: the Power of a Discovery Process. Now, Bob, this book- I love this book. The Choosing Winner System, that's your, I call it your patented approach, but it's your copyrighted, trademarked approach to hiring.

But you didn't just write a book on blah, blah, blah, hire, do this, blah, blah, blah, hire, do that. You wrote a story that put the system into action in a book form. And I loved that. I mean, literally, I've been mad at you since I read this last year because you didn't kill off the antagonist, Brandon, in his, in his car wreck. I mean, I just, I was disappointed because he was so mean. Well, it's just fiction, so it's okay.

But I mean, what made you decide to put this in story form? I mean, it totally communicates the method, but what made you decide to make it intriguing?

Bob Spence: Believe it or not. I've written this book twice before . Both times when I finished each one, I actually finished them, and when I finished them, I started reading them and thinking, I wouldn't want to read this. This is just like every other interview book on the market. They're all the same, listed, regurgitated, listed, regurgitated. And I thought, there's got to be a better way. I was reading some of Patrick Lencioni's work. And he writes in a business fable fashion, which this book is, it's a business fable. And so I thought I could do that with my system.

And so I created this fictional company with a fictional leadership team. And in the book, they go through hiring a new director of ops and you get to experience the system on how to do it. At the same time, it's a story. And like Jim referenced, there is an antagonist in there , and no, I did not kill Brandon off.

Jim: But you should have, but you should have, Hey, we're going to talk a lot more about this book and about hiring and really how this should impact us. I mean, as believers, how we hire people causes our business to flourish, our organizations to flourish. And those people we hire to flourish, not to mention all the people around us. We're going to be right back with more of Bob Spence. Hang on. More from iWork4Him right around the corner.

Jim: Hey, welcome back to iWork4Him as we're talking today with Bob Spence about his book A game plan for hiring the right people all the time. Well, he doesn't say that, right? The power of the discovery process. But listen, you know, this is a show about living our faith at work, and, Bob, , we get into I want to do a mention here for about something else, but before we do that, how does hiring in your mind connect your faith to your work?

Bob Spence: You know, years ago I was working with a company that you may have heard of n- In N Out Burger.

Jim: We ate there one time in Arizona. (chuckles)

Bob Spence: Okay. Anyway, at the time, Rich Snyder, who passed away, but Rich was the president and he had me training all his people how to hire. And at one point he asked me to help him hire a CFO and then he said to me, make sure you teach us how to hire only Christians.

I said, well, Rich, one, there'd be some legal issues with that, but I don't worry about legal issues. But why don't you just hire the best one available, who's competent, can get things done, and then share your faith with them and maybe they'll decide to come to the Lord? You know, if you have a hiring only Christians, you're not gonna have a chance to witness to anybody.

And so with hiring, what I've taught people to do is identify the values that you need to have in an employee in your organization. And they can be Christian values. You're not going to be in any legal trouble unless you say you got to be a Christian, and then you have a problem. But if you identify the values and you interview people and you interview the right way, they'll share their values and they'll be genuine and honest about it. And you can build an organization.

I've got a client out in Iowa that they hire and they don't worry about the person's faith, but they are all people of faith, and when the person comes in, all of a sudden they realize, Oh, he's starting a meeting with a prayer. Hmm. Well, he's a private company, so he can do that.

I think that's the key to it is, and in the book, you'll have a chance to read where the members of the leadership team, the ladies on the team are part of a prayer and squares group at their church. And the president, the CEO of the company, he always begins the meeting with a prayer in the book. And then when they have problems, they gather for prayer and it's all woven through the idea of hiring. So I hope that answers that.

Jim: And isn't the guy that's, you know, owner of the business, isn't he also on the iWork4Him board of directors?

Bob Spence: Yes. Yes.

Jim: I love that. I love that. I love that. All right.

Martha: Real life stuff.

Jim: I hate to correct my mentor, but if you are an organization of under 15 people, you actually can discriminate and only hire Christian people and tell people you are only hiring Christian people.

And if you're a nonprofit organization, then in your statement says that you're only going to hire Christian people, you can do that. But I recommend no matter what, if you're running a business, to hire nonbelievers, because how in the world are you going to get a chance to reach them for Christ? Like Bob said.

All right. Speaking of books, as you're hiring people for their next career, they may be people listening that are planning to end their paid career and focusing on retirement. At iRetire4Him, we say if you're not dead, you're not done. Do you want to hear more about this next chapter of your calling? Because if you've got a pulse, you've got a purpose.

Order one copy of iRetire4Him for 50 bucks and we'll send you a pack of 10 to share with your peers. It's a game changer. Just send me an email so we could ship it direct to you. Jim at iWork4Hiim.com and Martha will have that link and the show notes.

Martha: For sure. So Bob, your approach to hiring someone is very different. Do you think our culture is ready for your approach?

Bob Spence: Only if they want to be successful.

Martha: Oh, well, that's, that's a good response. (Jim laughing) That's how much Bob believes in this process, right?

Bob Spence: I've just seen so many positive results, like out of that 300 plus key leaders I've helped hire, the average tenure of those people has been 7, 8 years, which is really high, actually. And also, out of those over 300, only one got fired. And so we know it works. It works because you involve everybody in the organization that's connected to that hire. And it works because you're using a value based approach. What are the values? It works because you take time to put them through several interviews to come up with the right hire.

Jim: You said involve everyone who's actually going to be directly involved with that hire. So you're saying, so let's just say I'm coming in as a CFO. Normally I get interviewed by the CEO and maybe the COO, but you're saying I'm going to get interviewed by maybe my assistant? Or maybe my managers or VP level people? I mean, so people that are going to report to me are going to interview me as well?

Bob Spence: Yes. And what we do is we set up interview day and in the example you just gave - good example, by the way- the CEO would do a one to one interview, about 75 minutes long. Their leadership team would do a 75 minute interview, and the future direct reports would do the same thing.

And then they gather at the end of the day to talk and compare. Plus, we have, every candidate has a host for the day. I used to call this my James Bond technique, because the host learns more because they're with the person for the tour at the first part of the day. They spend every break with them, they take them to lunch, and the team members at the end of the day turn to the host and say, tell us about the person you hosted. They have so much information, it's unbelievable.

Martha: You know, I love your approach because I, I don't think enough people put weight in the fact that when you're making a commitment, both to work for an organization and the organization hiring somebody, it's a really big deal. You know, you're expecting results, you're expecting a good, you know, the culture to translate all of those things.

And a lot of times it's like a half hour, an hour, whatever. And I know you're doing higher level, but I think that the emphasis you put on the time that you spend with that person is so incredibly important. Okay, so let's talk about before you ever start advertising for a position you recommend that people really define the position and also the character of the person that they're looking for. Why is that so key?

Bob Spence: Because the greatest, single, most important thing about hiring is the who. W H O. The WHO means their behavior, values, beliefs, characteristics, and traits. You have to sit down with your leadership team if you're hiring a member for that team, or if you're a manufacturing team hiring for the manufacturing team, you sit down ahead of time and you brainstorm, who is this person? And when you get done with that, you brainstorm a category I call the WHAT. What are they responsible for? And you spell that out. You spell out what does good performance look like? And then you take time to do the ticket. What are the experience, education, and skills we want to require, prefer, and desire?

You put together a position profile. Now, that position profile is not the job description. I want to stress that because people think, well, then we got the job description done. No, you don't. The job description is finished when the person arrives on the scene and you sit down with that person, the CEO with that CFO, and they put together that job description together. And every category is based on performance metrics because that ensures competency. The person owns it.

And I always tell people during the process, like candidates, I'll say, understand something. I am working for this client and I'm helping them find the right fit and match. I'm also going to make sure it's the right fit and match for you. It's not a one way street. And when you interview with my client, you better be assessing as to whether you're the who or not the who.

Martha: Are you the who?

Jim: I'm really trying to keep that song from coming out of the microphone right now. (laughing)

Martha: No singing, Jim.

Jim: So I know for a fact that sometimes you can go through this process and have an offer fail. Do you automatically go to your number two or do you start the process all over again?

Bob Spence: I've done it both ways. In other words we maybe had a search, and I always send it, when I lead the search, I narrow it down to three for the client. And I tell them, if they're doing their own, they also narrow it down to three. I had a client one time say, can we have four? I said, you don't want to do that. And he said, Oh, let us have four. I got to have four. Instead of taking two days to make the decision, it took two months.

Martha: Oh, man.

Bob Spence: And they couldn't make the choice. Human beings do well when you got three options. And so we do that with the three options, and then when they get done, they choose the one that's the best fit and match.

Jim: Right. So if they choose the one that's the best fit and match, and then the offer fails, is there really a point to going to number two because that wasn't the best fit? Should they start the process all over again? Because a lot of people are like, I don't want to go through this again, I'll just take number two.

Bob Spence: No, I won't let them do that, but what we tell them is this - look, let's talk about the other two candidates out of the three. And in one case, we definitely did go to number two because it was so close. You know, they really had trouble. And most of my clients, that's the problem. At the end, we get hard to make the choice because at least two of the three are really close. At times we've said, no, let's go back and repost and start over. And then they look at me and say, oh. I said, wait a minute. Understand, you did not make a mishire. Let's celebrate. So we're going to spend more time. We're going to get the right fit and match this time for sure.

Martha: And I love your perspective, Bob. And you know, none of us like to have what we might consider failure. But like you said, you were kept from maybe a worse situation down the road just because of circumstances. So when something fails, it can really get frustrating or feel like it's time that's being stolen from us. And that's really what can happen when our computers are our phone get compromised.

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Jim: Yeah, Bob, let's go into this a little deeper as believers. Why should the way we hire be different?

Bob Spence: Well, I'm going to answer it two ways. One, ideally, it shouldn't be different because everybody should be doing the same thing to get the right fit and match for their organization. But as believers, it's more important than non believers, or I'm going to call them pre believers, because eventually they're going to face Jesus and realize, oops, I made a mistake. However, as a believer, if you're going to hire people, if you're going to bring them in, you want to make sure that you're getting people that are going to believe as you believe and be part of this team.

Jim: What I love about your book is the simplicity of the method. I mean, somebody can really buy a game plan for hiring the right people and get a very good idea of the choosing winner system and put it into action. But while they're reading it, they're going to go, I want to know how it happens. I want to know who they end up hiring in the end.

And I was going to ask you a question that kind of was a little spoiler and I'm not gonna do that. I changed my mind because listen, don't give it away. You gotta read to the end of this book. I am guaranteeing you, listen, I'm guaranteeing you that if when you read this book and you're not thrilled all the way to the end, because I literally couldn't put it down, Bob will give you your money back. I'm guaranteeing that for Bob.

Martha: You know what? Jim, I just want to say one thing. You and I for years have been advocates of fiction and learning through fiction, and Bob, you call this a business fable and we love that approach because it's not telling, it's experiencing. And how much better to remember when you've been in the scene and you've seen it happen and you saw it put into place.

And so I just want to commend you on that because having a different approach, instead of it just being a bullet pointed, like you said, tell and retell and all of that, you gave people an experience and people can start with that to get some better ideas and how, no matter what level of position they are hiring for, to try a fresh approach and to really see some success there. And so I just want to commend you on that because we are fiction lovers and we believe that every author that writes has a purpose and there's a message that's being shared, but it's not telling. And so thank you very much for doing that.

Jim: And I want to tell you, you know, sometimes people write fiction and put in their agenda within it and it just, you're like, you want to poke your eyeballs out and burn your fingernails out with acid. (laughter) This is not that book. I really couldn't wait to find out who they hired. And I was also again, as I said, disappointed that the antagonist didn't die in the car wreck.

Martha: He's there for another day.

Bob Spence: Here's some good news for you, Jim. The antagonist is in book two.

Jim: Book two? Okay! If you got the guy, if you got him hired, what's book two about? No, he wasn't hired. Okay, but at the end of this book, somebody gets hired for this company. Tell us about book two. What's book two going to be about?

Bob Spence: Book two is from my experience working with clients. After we hire somebody, they sit there and they say, wow, we've learned we got a lot of issues we have to deal with. Our managers don't know how to coach. We found that out during hiring. We found out our managers don't understand budgeting and processes. They don't understand decision making. They don't understand how to communicate. So the second book, this whole team, same team, same characters, they move forward and they make a list of the seven key issues. And during the second book, you see them work together to resolve it. And the antagonist comes back and tries to throw a monkey wrench into that whole thing.

Martha: Oh, there's a reason he's around.

Jim: Duh-duh-duh...

Martha: That's great, Bob, and we look forward to book two.

Jim: Yes, we do. I will be happy to read an early version and help you with any editing so I can figure out what happens to Brandon, because I want to know what happens to Brandon.

Bob, what I love about this conversation, and we've just barely touched it, is that there really is the right way to hire people. And as believers, we should want to hire the right way because we're really, our businesses are about flourishing, flourishing for our employees. So if you're hiring somebody, they're going to be an employee. The employees, families, our customers, our vendors, I mean, everybody that's involved. And so hiring is so important because it's got to match where you're going as an organization, and I've known you long enough now to know that when you hire somebody or help an organization find people to hire, those are good fits and it works. So Bob Spence, I'm glad that you brought a game plan for hiring the right people to iWork4Him so we could talk about it.

And I do appreciate you, especially being my mentor and friend too. Thank you. Any final questions, Martha?

Martha: No, I think we covered it all.

Jim: Check out Bob online at Bobspensconsulting. com or on Amazon to get his book, Game Plan for Hiring the Right People. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.

1/8/25 - 2076: Loving Your "Neighbor Neighbor"

Jim: You've tuned in to iWork4Him , the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: We are your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to inspire every workplace believer to recognize their workplace as their ministry place, where they work with God every day. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: After a long Christmas vacation break, it's back to work. Are you ready to live out our faith vibrantly at work? Loving our work neighbors as ourselves, even in the midst of the pressures and stresses of work? Have you made that transition to recognizing your workplace as your mission field? Your place of ministry? 2025 is the year of the mobilized body of Christ, impacting people everywhere in our country with the love of Jesus and reintroducing them to the Creator Almighty God, but what about when we get home? Does your faith impact how you live in your neighborhood? Do you even know your neighbors?

Not just their names but know them, their kids, their hobbies. Do your neighbors know they can count on you in a crunch? It's one thing to live out your faith in your family. And one thing to live out your faith at church. And then one thing to live out your faith at work, but we all need to come full circle and love our neighbors when we come home after a long day at work.

And that's the topic of today's iWork4Him episode. Martha, we've had some neighbors that weren't too easy to love over the years, haven't we?

Martha: Oh man, you're going to start right there. (laughter)

Jim: I'm jumping right in. Because Jesus said, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and love your neighbors as yourself.

Martha: Yes, I think that everyone can relate to having a difficult neighbor. I'd love to think that every neighbor we've ever had has been easy to love, but that's not the truth. Sometimes we've had to work really hard to love our neighbors. Yeah.

Is that what you wanted me to say? You weren't looking for specifics.

Jim: We've lived in several different neighborhoods. We lived in an apartment when we first got married, actually lived in both, two different apartments when we first got married. We lived with my parents. They were some of the toughest neighbors ever. And we've lived in - just some fantastic neighbors, got to meet some phenomenal people. Truly the greatest experience that we had was that 20 years we lived In Florida in the same neighborhood. We focused almost all of our episodes, though, Martha, on living out our faith at work, but really what do we talk about after work?

About living out our faith when we get home and on weekends. It's pretty, pretty easy to let our guard down after work when we pull into the driveway and we're just tired. And we just don't want to see people. Some of us, we've had long commutes. There was a year, there was five years where I drove 90 minutes to work and two hours coming home. I didn't want to talk to people. I just wanted dinner.

Martha: You were hangry. No, yes, it is easy to change once we, maybe we've had to be our very best self while we've been at work all day and then we get home and the neighbor's garbage can is out or their animal pooped on your lawn or, whatever it might be. And, that is not the time to let your guard down. And it's really important that we're always reflecting Jesus. That is, I guess what I'm trying to say.

I think about the fact that, Jim, we often talk about on iWork4Him, the idea that the people we work with are our neighbors. We spend so much time neighboring the person that you have meetings with or the person that you work down the hallway from. But the truth is, our neighbors, our Actual physical neighborhood neighbors, need to be a priority in our life as well.

And so what do you think of when you think about people coming home at the end of the day and maybe they've had a rough day and they don't want to see anybody, but you can tell like your neighbor... Like today, they maybe needed to have their driveway shoveled and they didn't get a chance to do it or something like that.

Jim: Thank goodness the sun was strong enough here in Missouri to melt most of the driveways. But yeah, it's, I can just think about how I felt coming home after a long day. And sometimes you just don't want to talk to people. And you don't even want to, when you, even when you come in your house, you don't want to talk to people. But the deal is that your neighbors know there's something different about you, and they expect you to act differently because they know you're a Christian.

Martha: Let's start with maybe your neighbors should know that about you.

Jim: If you disappear on Sunday mornings, they're probably figuring out you're not going to the bar, that maybe you're going somewhere else. And it should come up in conversation somewhere that you go to church, that at least opens up the conversation. But it, a lot of people go to church and it doesn't impact them. If somebody knows that you're a believer, they're going to expect something different from you. They're going to expect a different kind of behavior from you and our neighbors need us, okay?

Martha: So what do you think is the best way for us to start building that community if we've not done that in our neighborhood? How can we love on our neighbors?

Jim: It starts with a little couple of things.

Martha: Okay?

Jim: First we need to actually know our neighbors' names . And I'd like to say that I'd like you to start with - this is a good one to Pastor Charlie, hats off to Pastor Charlie - get to know the neighbor in front of you, next to you, on either side, and behind you.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: And then start learning the one's kitty corner, but get to know the neighbor's names. How do you do that? You bake cookies like you did in the old days.

Martha: It is the answer to most situations.

Jim: It is the international language of friendship. Fresh cookies. Anybody can make fresh cookies because anybody can buy Pillsbury dough boy dough and put it on a cookie sheet, but you might have a wife like mine and she just makes cookies herself.

Martha: But any form of - something that you can put on a plate.

Jim: And just say, hey, we're Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We live kitty corner to you, across the street. We just really wanted to say, hey, and we're really sorry we've been lousy neighbors. What's your name?

Martha: Yeah. And one thing, Jim, when we have done that in the past, I've written it on a card and given it to them so that they, you don't have that awkward, how to get a hold of you so that they can, you don't be like, Oh, I have to write all that down real quick. Like okay, here is some information about us. And you're right. Just even if you've lived next to these people for years, just say, you know what? Okay. I just baked these and I just really felt like I wanted to share them with you and get to know you and let you know that we're here if you need anything.

Jim: Keeping it simple, but understanding that not everybody will be responsive, but almost everybody is, they're respectful of the cookie. Cookies are the international open love language, a food language.

Martha: I can't imagine anybody throwing that contact information away. I can't.

Jim: You know, take for instance my friend Joe. So about a year and a half ago, I met my neighbor Joe. So we had a garage sale. We're getting rid of some of the stuff We dragged from Florida to missouri. We paid to put it in a moving truck so we could sell it at a garage sale.

 And we met Joe and I gave him my card. He just lived across the street and I said, if you ever need anything, let me know. About two hours later, Joe calls, Jim, grab your six foot ladder. I need you now. So I grabbed my six foot ladder and I ran over to Joe's house and I ran through the front door and there's Joe hanging from his balcony, desperately needing a ladder under his feet.

Martha: And if he hadn't had your business card in his pocket, we don't know what would've happened. But it started a great relationship. I want to finish the story, because it started a great relationship, and Joe then made us food to thank us for helping him, and ever since then, it was like, hey Martha, do you have this spice? Or, hey, I made this, and I have this extra thing I want to share with you, and just created a sweet little relationship there.

Jim: We miss Joe. We do. He moved to Oregon. It's sad.

Martha: Yes. It's sad. But communicating through Facebook, so that still works, that's the kind of thing we're talking about, though, is just take that time to get to know them. Even if you go buy a pound cake at the grocery store and slice it up and put it on a plate, it's okay. But get in front of them and just say, Hi, I am your neighbor and I want to get to know you.

Jim: But if you go to the store and you buy a Sara Lee pound cake, do they actually weigh a pound?

Martha: Oh my goodness. You're very philosophical.

Jim: You may need to add strawberries and whipped cream on top to make them tasty.

Martha: Okay.

Jim: All right. Now I think the best thing we've ever done to build community is

Martha: a potluck

Jim: I was gonna say we need to take a break and talk about SaferNet first. Okay a potluck! Absolutely. The potlucks that we did at indian rocks beach, Florida, were the best idea ever. We always did one right before everybody went home for the summer because people think it's hot in Florida. So they go home to other places where it's hotter but We did a potluck and we did it in our garage or in our driveway, and then we also then did a potlucky gathering New Year's Eve and let people just come over and hang out. Just opening up your house speaks loudly.

Now, not everybody came. And some people said, Jim and Martha, are you okay if we bring our own wine? We're like, yeah, because you're not going to get any at my house. So it's fine. Bring your own beer if you want to bring your own. And I'll have mountain Dew.

Martha: What was fun about the New Year's Eve was that we were able to use the idea that who wants to be on the road driving on New Year's Eve out with other people that might be too festivity, festivitousness, or whatever you call it, having too much festivity in their life. So anyway, that was the way of saying let's have a neighborhood gathering where nobody has to drive anywhere.

Jim: And you can walk home hammered.

Martha: Those were just some things that we've done.

Jim: Absolutely.

Martha: We've not done it perfectly and I think we can talk about that in a minute, but go ahead.

Jim: Speaking of great neighbors, your computers are under attack all the time. People are constantly trying to get it at you. I had three or four emails today telling me that my Microsoft account was expiring. Not! I also had a couple of text messages saying, hey, you need to log into this place. People are lying to you all the time. How do you know? How do you know if you're clicking a real link or a bad link? That's why we use SaferNet on all of our computers, all of our devices.

SaferNet has web filters. It has web filters, it has antivirus, it has a VPN, virtual private network, and if you click on a link and it doesn't go where it says it's going to go, SaferNet blocks it. It keeps you from being stupid. We use it on everything on iWork4Hi and everything Jim and Martha. You should use it too. And tell them Jim and Martha told you to do it. SaferNet. com. SaferNet. com.

Martha: So it's like they're being good neighbors to us, taking care of us.

Jim: They're phenomenal neighbors.

I know we know our neighbors names.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: But, have we done a great job of engaging our immediate neighbors yet? We haven't done a potluck. We've lived here two and a half years, no potlucks.

Martha: We tried, and we had one all scheduled, and then the weather was super crazy that weekend, and everybody freaked out and were like, yeah, we're not having this potluck.

Jim: That was a year and a half ago.

Martha: Yeah, it was. I'm not denying that we have not done a great job in our little neighborhood right now. However, two of our immediate neighbors are family. So we do spend a lot of time with the family.

Jim: I don't know that really counts.

Martha: Oh, it definitely counts.

Jim: Oh, it counts. All right. So what's really cool is that one of our neighbors, who I've prayed with several times, he works over the road, he builds ice roads in Alaska and the Yukon. One of his kids got baptized at church the other day, and they all came to church, and of course they were comfortable because they knew us, we were there.

So that was really cool. And a couple times I've preached at other local churches and neighbors have come to hear me preach. So that's been fun. But we still need to do the potluck. We got to get it in the calendar for once the snow lifts.

Martha: We have this, i'm not making excuses, I just need to find a better way to do it because we don't have the under the roof space.

Jim: We have a really great garage now. We have a great garage. We also have our office building that we rehabbed.

Martha: So what you're saying is all the listeners should not make excuses either, right? We've got to find a way to get past...

Jim: don't be like Martha and make a bunch of excuses. We've got a building we rehabbed. In fact, you should check out the link on our website. Check out Central Place and the place we're rehabbing here in Marionville, now called The Gathering. Those are QR codes, are they on the website?

Martha: So just go to iWork4Him. com forward slash central place. I can put that in the show notes as well. But then you can see some of the rehab work that we've been doing here and next door in our buildings and just walk along with us on this crazy journey of rehabilitating old spaces.

Jim: Yeah, old spaces. All right, so we got to know our neighbors. We haven't brought them cookies, but we've gotten to know our neighbors here in Marionville and a lot of other people. It's a small town.

Martha: So we've had neighbors bring us cookies.

Jim: Yes, we have. And every week, one of the neighboring things we do for people here in Marionville, Missouri, is we have a podcast. You might want to check it out. It's called Good Place Marionville Podcast on YouTube or Good Place Marionville on Facebook. It's not on podcast platforms right now, but it talks about all the good that's going on in Marionville, and Martha and I are the hosts. So it's a lot of fun just connecting with people. And we interview people from town that share a little bit of the story what good is going on. It's not specifically spiritual based, but it's all about good and it's not gossip.

Martha: That's a good point, Jim. And it really, in a small town like we live in, everybody's your neighbor. And so it's really about getting to know what's happening in town, what's good, who to be paying attention to, whatever might be happening in the schools, things like that. That is one of the beautiful things of a small town, but I know for a lot of people they have Neighborhood areas where they live right? And really, how can you focus on your neighborhood Jim?

Jim: And something we've really learned about being a great neighbor in a small town is you know there's volunteer fire departments in 95 percent of the towns across America. That's a great way to be a great neighbor is join your volunteer fire department. I got to do that recently, well last year in 2024, beginning of the year, as a chaplain. And i've been learning how to be a firefighter for the very first time in life. You know every boy grows up wanting to drive a fire truck . I get to do that. And I get to play with the sirens. And when you're driving a fire truck down the road at 60 miles an hour with the sirens going on, people just part the ways. Not in Florida, but here in Missouri, they actually pull over for you. It's actually very cool. And it's a great way to serve our neighbors. I've had a lot of opportunities to pray with people who are in crisis, which is a lot of fun.

Martha: Even just protecting their property, Jim.

Jim: I climbed on a roof at 2: 30 in the morning once.

Martha: Doing some of the amazing neighboring things.

Jim: All right. One of the really cool things we've got an opportunity to do, and not everybody's going to have the opportunity to do this, is we moved into an old town started 170 years ago, so figure that out, that'd be 1854. There's a lot of old buildings and Martha and I just fixed one up for our offices for iWork4Him, the international headquarters of iWork4Him.

And then we bought another one and we're fixing that up to be the gathering, create a place for people to just be able to gather and have a cup of coffee and maybe get some books and gifts. And there may be another one we'll tell you about on a future episode, but we're loving on our town by investing who we are in this town.

And that's a lot of fun. So we've been preaching, martha's been playing piano and singing in our church. She's done nursery, which I won't do but I went on medical calls, which I don't like to do either because it might involve needles.

Martha: Well and volunteering for our local festival. I feel like that's very neighboring because that's really - the epitome of a town is their festival.

Jim: That's right. Small towns. If you really want to have some fun, come to Marionville, Missouri the third weekend in September and enjoy Applefest.

Martha: There you go. And we'll even host you.

Jim: That's right. We will. Absolutely. We will.

Martha: We will. We'll make cookies.

Jim: Okay, yeah.

Martha: I don't know. You've been talking about cookies a lot.

Jim: Speaking of cookies, I got a great deal for you. We talk all about neighboring both in iWork4Him, the book, and iRetire4Him the book. And what's a practical way to really put your faith into action as a neighbor, not only to your neighbors at work, but your neighbors you live next to at night and on weekends. We encourage you to Get a copy of our book, but we encourage you to get an incredible deal.

We've got books in stock and when somebody buys it off Amazon, Amazon just prints it. So we've got books in stock. We'd like to make a deal: buy a copy of iRetire4Him, or iWork4Him for yourself for $50 and get nine extra copies included in the price. Just pay for shipping. And we'll send you 10 copies of iWork4Him all signed by both of us, and you can give them out to your friends in your small group and talk about how to be a neighbor. Because Jesus said the number one commandment, he summarized the Law and the Prophets in two sentences. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Love your neighbor as yourself.

That's how Jesus summarized the entirety of the Law and the Prophets. How are we doing?

Martha: Okay. So our deal is buy one book for $50 and get nine more free, and you pay the shipping.

Jim: That's right.

Martha: So what a deal! That's an incredible deal. And we'll sign all of them. That's a nice little twist on there, Jim.

Jim: We'll sign them all for you and the money will go to a good cause. Just loosening up some of our inventory and you will not be disappointed. Martha's dad wrote his stories of living out his faith in his work and faith in retirement inside of our books. His name is Ted Hains. His stories are hilarious, just incredible stories. You're going to love reading these books. They are not boring books because you've listened to our podcast. We're not boring.

Martha: Okay, so let's talk about what are some of our goals for 2025. What are some of our goals, Jim?

Jim: We recently took over the control of an old thrift center. That's the third building we're going to work on and it's full of old thrift stuff. We're going to do buy a bin for 10 bucks.

Martha: We're not really sure all the particulars, but

Jim: okay, but we're going to have a, we're going to have

Martha: a sale.

Jim: We're going to have an incredible sale and bless a ton of people with all the stuff that's inside.

Martha: So what you're saying is that's a way to love on our neighbors? By allowing them to get stuff at a good price.

Jim: But I really think we need to plan the potluck.

Martha: Oh, definitely.

Jim: Maybe we do a car wash.

Martha: It's winter. You're silly.

Jim: It should be an ice wash.

Martha: An ice wash. My car today did not need any extra water on it.

Jim: We'll spray your car with water so you won't be able to open the doors tomorrow morning.

Martha: Okay, so let's talk about other goals though because we've met neighbors, but not gotten to spend much time with them.

Jim: So we're doing this. We have a teeny little kitchen. We live in a little house on the prairie. So Martha, what are we going to do so we can have more people over for dinner?

Martha: We're trying to reconfigure our kitchen so that we can have more people sitting down around the table in the inclement weather, when you can't be out.

Jim: (Jim singing) we're gonna eat. Join us.

Martha: Wow. Wow. We have a little sing along.

Jim: We're recording this a little later in the day. It's nighttime. It's late at night we're recording this. We've never done this before, but we thought it'd be fun just to try. (laughing)

Martha: It's a new year. I was thinking about iWork4Him. This is not too much off topic. iWork4Him, it's going to be how old this year?

Jim: 12 years old.

Martha: That's like a pre teen . I was thinking about that. We're not quite teenagers yet, but it's a pre teen.

Jim: So 12 years and over 3 000 produced podcasts. But our goals: potluck, garage sale, big garage sale, because you know, garage sales, your nosy neighbors always come over.

Martha: Your kind neighbors.

Jim: Your nosy kind neighbors want to come over and see who you are. You know what you really want to do? Put your house on the market and meet all your neighbors, because they want to come over and see your house. I'm just kidding.

Martha: But then you're losing your neighbors.

Jim: You don't have to sell it. Just put it on the market so you can meet all your neighbors. What else are we going to do?

Martha: What are some things like in general that we can do? okay, so we talked about at the beginning of this show, people can start by getting to know who their neighbors even are, get their names, I remember Jim, when we were new in a neighborhood.

We had in your toolbox in the garage a pad of paper, and we Like filled in this little map that we made as somebody would walk by and they'd be like, Oh, my name is so and so we'd be like, okay, remember to write that in the map so that we could remember it because when you're new, that's overwhelming to start to get keep track.

Jim: Husbands, wives, kids, if there's at home, get to know their pet's names because really

Martha: they're going to end up in your yard eventually.

Jim: They are. So here's why Martha's sister, Mary and her husband, Gary, they meet people. They got two dogs and they go, Gary walks the neighborhood with the dogs. And that's an instant conversation.

Martha: That people that have dogs already know that, right?

Jim: We don't have pets,

Martha: but we're not getting a dog just so we can.

Jim: Can we get one of those stuffed ones that walks on?

Martha: No, that's okay. So lots of ideas for how you can take that first step and just get to know their name, introduce yourself, and then take it from there and just say Lord, what is it that I can do to further this relationship and what do you want me to do? And don't push your way in but just be graceful and kind and considerate. Maybe it's pulling in their garbage when you take in your garbage can after it's been picked up. Don't wait for them to get home and take in their garbage.

Jim: Shovel their driveway if it's full of snow.

Martha: Shovel it.

Jim: Offer to watch their house when they go away on vacation.

Martha: Water plants, pick their tomatoes for them if they happen to have 10, 000 tomatoes.

Jim: Only you, Martha, have 10, 000 tomatoes every year. All right, but how does this fit in with the conversation of working with God versus for God?

Here's the deal. God loves all of your neighbors just as much as he loves you. And he expects you to love all your neighbors just like he loves all of them. So when you're loving on your neighbors, even sometimes when they're not very lovable, you're working with God. And if you love on your neighbors, even if they're not always receptive, when they have a crisis in your life, in their life, you're gonna be able to be there because you're the first call they're gonna make. You might not know a lot of people. You might not have really deep relationship with your neighbors. But if they know that you're a believer and they know that you care when they have a crisis, you're gonna be the first one they call because they know that they can rely on you because you're different.

They may say, because you're religious, and you don't have to argue with them that night and say, I'm not really religious.

Martha: That's okay, you can just take it.

Jim: That's right. And then explain to them later.

Martha: I had another idea.

Jim: Okay, as we close out the show, Martha's got a final idea.

Martha: Once you get their name, look for them on social media, somewhere where you can connect with them.

Jim: You mean stalk or actually connect?

Martha: No, connect.

Jim: Okay.

Martha: Most people aren't stalking.

Jim: So People think they're connecting when they're actually watching somebody else's Facebook. That is not connecting, that's just watching.

Martha: But you can get to know people that way.

Jim: You can get to know them, but you have to engage them in contact.

Martha: Hey, this is my idea.

Jim: Oh, okay, sorry.

Martha: What I just was going to say is if you friend them or follow them or whatever it is, then you can get to know what's important to them, so it gives you some points of contact. It also gives you a way to message them that might be, for a lot of people, that's a little less threatening. I've gotten many messages from neighbors saying, Hey, have you seen our dog? It's missing or, Hey, did you know that this was happening or did you see this? Whatever it might be that they have a question on or something that's just another point of contact that does give you the opportunity to get to know them better so that you know what their interests are.

If you see, oh, on the weekend they were camping. Now I know why they were gone. And maybe I should. Tell them I can watch their house, whatever it might be. It's just going to help you to get to know your neighbors a little bit better.

Jim: A lot of great ideas, but the bottom line is we need to love our neighbors. We need to love our work neighbors. We need to love our neighbor neighbors, the ones that we live next to on nights and weekends, and here's a great way to get started. Buy all the people in your small group a copy of iWork4Him. Actually, just buy yourself a copy of iWork4Him or iRetire4Him for $50 and get nine copies free. And then just pay for shipping and we'll get those to you and you can give them out to your friends. You can't even go to Subway for four people for $50 and we're talking about changing your life with incredible stories, incredible content, connections to incredible ministries, and really getting to hear our life story in both iWork4Him and iRetire4Him. Go online to iWork4Him. com forward slash bookstore.

Martha: Yes.

Jim: And then you can get a copy, buy one for 50 bucks, get nine free.

Martha: Awesome. We hope that this gives you some new perspective as you look at the new year and you're thinking, what can I do different this year? One of the ways, simply be obedient to what the Lord says and to love our neighbors.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace is our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.

12/25/24 - 2074: Cocoa, Candlelight, & Christ's Love

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the Voice of collaboration for the Faith and Work Movement.

Martha: Merry Christmas everybody. We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What can that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: All right. Christmas. It happens every year, but for the most of us, it catches us off guard. I'm not sure why. We know it's coming, but are we really prepared? We've spent weeks shopping for the right gifts and days preparing our favorite dishes. Having lived in the frozen tundra of Minnesota and the sunny paradise of Florida, I've seen Christmas to the extreme. Cold and hot, snowy and wet. Lit up palm trees to lit up Christmas trees, but inside each of our families, we celebrate Christmas differently.

Traditions reign on this day, but does our faith impact our Christmas or does Jesus remain in the manger for the day? All I know is that celebrating the birthday of our savior and Lord who gave up everything so that we can have access to our [00:01:00] heavenly father - that's something I want to be memorable. We invited some dear friends from Atlanta to join us on this Christmas day to share their Christmas cheer. Lou and Sabrina Reynolds, welcome to iWork4Him a special Christmas Day edition.

Lou Reynolds: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us here.

Sabrina Reynolds: Yeah, we're excited.

Jim: All right, so we're doing this together and we're asking joint questions. So how many Christmases have the two of you celebrated together?

Sabrina Reynolds: Actually we've celebrated 30 Christmases together, two of which before we were married and 28 married.

Martha: That would make 40 for us, Jim, because we just celebrated at Thanksgiving 40 years since our first kiss.

Jim: Oh, that's right. All right. So 40 Christmases, we can't possibly be that old. That's the thing that I don't get is you can have all these celebrations, but you can't possibly feel that old.

All right. So I want to, I want us to go around the room and [00:02:00] share your favorite Christmas memory because, you know, Sabrina, where'd you grow up? Like when you were a kid, where were you, in what state?

Sabrina Reynolds: I was in new york.

Jim: Yes, new york city or new york?

Sabrina Reynolds: Long Island, New York. So cold winters, wet snow some Christmases. Yeah, my favorite Christmas memory was literally tearing through the gifts with my brothers. I have two brothers, an older and a younger, and we knew whose gifts were whose, so we didn't have fights over that. But we did play with each other's toys. And one Christmas, I played with my brother's - okay I'm gonna date myself - Stretch Armstrong.

Martha: Oh yeah!

Jim: Stretch Armstrong was awesome!

Sabrina Reynolds: Yes, and I broke his Spiderman doll on Christmas Day. But my brother was so... he was just such a good big brother. And he was upset but he didn't show that he was mad at me for it.

Jim: So you're a middle child? That explains a lot. (laughter) Okay, but just [00:03:00] for those of you listening, if you ever wondered what was the stretch limit for Stretch Armstrong, if you know what we're talking about, you can look it up on YouTube. I believe that the stretch limit was somewhere between six and seven feet because as teenagers we ran across a stretch Armstrong and we tried to see how far could stretch Armstrong stretch and somewhere between six and seven feet stretch stopped stretching and just...

Martha: We're going to, we're going to digress here for a second, but realize they probably designed it so like as far as you could stretch. It would have been safe, but it's when more than one kid got involved....

Jim: I think there was four boys, four boys pulling on stretch.

All right. So Lou, where did you grow up? What part of the country did you grow up in?

Lou Reynolds: So I grew up in the great state of New Hampshire. So I know what it is to have cold and snowy winters. Very familiar with that. White Christmases were the norm. And so now i'm grateful to not see those anymore, but when I was younger, it was nice to have.

Jim: So in New Hampshire, do you have lobster for Christmas dinner?[00:04:00]

Lou Reynolds: Some maybe that really wasn't our family tradition, but I can see how there may be some.

Jim: Which part of New Hampshire were you in?

Lou Reynolds: Nashua, New Hampshire. So it's the Southern part, close to the Massachusetts border. Not far from Boston.

Martha: So Jim and I lived in New Hampshire for just one year of our marriage. Not even quite a year. I don't think we had any lobster around Christmas time.

So Lou, what is one of your favorite Christmas memories?

Lou Reynolds: Mine, I think it probably goes back really super spiritual, when I got my first bike. How amazing, right? It was like, I couldn't even ride it. I was just excited to get one. Didn't know what I was going to do with it. It was already snowing outside, so I couldn't even go outside and ride it. So I was in the house wheeling around on it trying to figure out how to balance myself. But that's probably one of my most fun memories. Just because, getting a bike was a really big deal.

Jim: Lou is in the house. (laughing) So I was eight and I remember that was the year that I was going to highlight it [00:05:00] for my favorite Christmas. It was the Christmas before we moved to the frozen tundra, Minnesota, we're still in Maryland at the time. And I got a bike. My parents - I was eight. They bought me a 26 inch bike.

Martha: Oh, wow. A little big?

Jim: It was a Sears Hawthorne bike. I think the reason they got it is because it came with a free baseball bat, which I still have to this day.

Martha: So you got both of them?

Jim: I got both of them, but I couldn't ride that bike for three years. It was huge on me. I'm like, what' s the deal with this bike.

Martha: I think they probably knew how much you were gonna grow.

Jim: No, my dad loved baseball. I'm pretty sure he did it for the bat. But that was the year I got, that was the year I got a Redskins football helmet, football outfit, and I got a big wheel that year.

Martha: Okay. So I'm gonna tell you my christmas memory is really more - not a memory of a gift, but more of a... so I grew up in Illinois, and we had snow most of the time for Christmas. I can't even remember not having snow. But for me, it was more the memory of being in [00:06:00] the kitchen.

Christmas was all about baking cookies and having people over and hospitality. And it would start, really the kickoff for my family was December 13th, which was my dad's birthday day. And my mom is Swedish, and that's a Swedish holiday called Santa Lucia. And so we would serve dad breakfast in bed, give him a piece of our nativity set that we were collecting that every year we would get a new piece for.

And that really launched the Christmas season for our family. So it was really special. And it was like, we made sure the house was decorated by then, all the things, and from there on out, I think it was free reign, cookies, and the rest of the season. To me, that's really what I think of, is that family time and working together and making all the treats to love on other people. So those are good memories for me. And I think that falls in with the kind of traditions that my family had as well.

Jim: All right, Lou, so if you didn't eat lobster for Christmas, what was your family's Christmas [00:07:00] tradition?

Lou Reynolds: We had a pretty wide variety of things that we would do, but I come from a Jamaican family. Many times what would be on our dinner table was the natural cultural cuisines of Jamaica that so many people have become fans of over the years, just because there's a Jamaican restaurant just about every state that you go to. Things like stew chicken or curry chicken were normal things for us to have at Christmastime and then on occasions, we'd have jerky just to mix it up and do something different.

Jim: Is it jerk turkey or is it just regular turkey? Jerk chicken is - jamaican jerk chicken, that's my thing. Florida, first time I ever experienced that. Alright, what about you, Sabrina? Traditions? Whatever your favorite Christmas tradition is. Food is good, we can always talk about food here, of course.

When I was growing up, we didn't really have many traditions. We put up the Christmas tree together with those big, gigantic, colorful lights, again, dating myself, [00:08:00] but as far as traditions, we didn't really, it was like this year, let's try something different. We had a Christmas tree, we had the tinsel, we had the lights. But there was nothing, you know that stands out which is why our traditions now stand out to me so much more.

We're going to talk about that after a break, but you know, I just got to thinking about, so It was that same year I think I got the big wheel that our tree caught on fire, and we had a cat at that time and it also I'm thinking "Christmas vacation." Did the cat bite the wire? Is that what caused the fire? I'm not quite sure but the cat lived so probably not, but we had a Christmas tree fire one time.

Jim: And I don't know. We never really had, my family wasn't much for traditions. My mom, she didn't really like cooking. She didn't like decorating. It was more for us kids, but it was good.

All right before we go to the break though and hear from one of our sponsors, let's talk about faith and work and Christmas. How do you guys see fitting Christmas into your work at this time of year?[00:09:00]

Lou Reynolds: Yeah, you know for us it's really important that not just our staff, but also who we find ourselves working with on a day to day basis know the and understand the why behind what we do. There are things like rest that we want to incorporate into that. It's not just all about the work itself, but understanding that we're going to take the time to celebrate Jesus during this season.

And if that means, we have to put a pause on some of the things that we were doing and maybe not set the same deadlines that we normally would, that's okay. And we're not afraid to tell people that and be comfortable with that, but also in how we serve those that we work with, specifically with our staff, we want them to know that it's a time to rest, it's a time to celebrate. The celebration is all about who Jesus is and what he's done and that's okay to be comfortable in even if they don't believe the same things that we do, that's okay. But we want you to know why.

Jim: That's pretty powerful. I love Christmas time to really, if you [00:10:00] involve people that you work with, that you do business with, that you hang out with on a daily basis, whatever that may be, get them involved in your family. Involve them in some of your traditions. So many people that we work alongside, that we work with that are customers or vendors or whatever, that are alone at the holidays, and to invite them and to be a part of your day, to experience your family. Your dysfunctional family is no different than my dysfunctional family, but if you want to be a part of our day, that's fine. Please join us. That's exciting.

Martha: And I was thinking for us, Jim, all of the people that we work with are remote. So we don't have a Christmas dinner or anything like that.

Jim: Eat your own food. Join us at dinner on Zoom.

Martha: You take me to dinner and I'll take you to dinner. But I think of my dad who was a entrepreneur and business owner all of my childhood into my adult years. And mom and dad always had a Christmas party and they very intentionally, all of the employees and their spouses or significant other came. But it was [00:11:00] very important that it was about the birth of Christ, not a gift giving craziness thing. It was very intentional and I, that set such a good example for me to see that it can be a Christmas party for the true meaning of Christmas.

You can love on your employees, whoever it is that you invite to the table, but do it in such a way - with intentionality. Speaking of those traditions, most traditions are one that you want to repeat over and over, or maybe tweak it from year to year and make things keep getting better and better.

It might be your favorite recipe or an activity that you do as a family, but there are some things that should never be repeated. And one of those things is if you've ever been hacked or been a part of a data breach at your work or any other organization. It's something you don't ever want to have to repeat.

With SaferNet, you don't have to worry about this. Their internet controls, their VPN, and their 84 website filters are [00:12:00] designed to keep you safe so that you can focus on all the family traditions that you want this time of year and year round. So go to SaferNet. com and learn more and keep the tradition of safety and peace of mind for your home and your office.

Jim: All right, as Lou and Sabrina said, 30 years, 28 married, two years before that, they've celebrated their 30th Christmas together. Let's talk about married life, Christmas traditions, typical Christmas day for you guys. What's that like? And you guys live in Atlanta now, we're living in Southwest Missouri, but we lived all over the place, so have you guys. Talk about that typical day when you got kids at home and that kind of thing.

Sabrina Reynolds: I can't even say how grateful I am to not be in the cold. Yeah, we don't dream of white Christmases here. Maybe we might have to wear a light jacket.

Jim: Yeah, you talk about snow in Atlanta, that's hell on earth, people. Twenty lanes of traffic with snow, that is a recipe for a living nightmare.

Sabrina Reynolds: Yeah, we'll be shut down for a month. (laughter) No, but one of my favorite traditions [00:13:00] was actually Lou, he instituted this tradition on Christmas morning where first of all, I'll go back to Christmas Eve. Christmas Eve, we'll all watch Christmas movies together.

So everybody gets to pick their favorite Christmas movie. And it hasn't changed much over the years. But the three movies that we watch are the Polar Express, It's a Wonderful Life, and my favorite, A Christmas Story. So we'll watch those movies, and during Polar Express, I will make hot chocolate for my kids.

Our kids are 25 and 18, and they still look forward to hot chocolate during the Polar Express movie. And then Christmas morning we don't get up and start tearing open gifts. We have a big family breakfast together. So it is a giant family breakfast and we just, laugh and talk and enjoy, each other's [00:14:00]company.

And then sometime in the afternoon, we'll finally mosey over, to the living room and start distributing all the gifts and we'll just sit down together and we'll open gifts one by one and celebrate what each person has received, each and every gift. So yeah, it's a long process. It's almost like a full day extravaganza.

Jim: As long as there's eggnog involved, that's okay. Is there eggnog involved in your family traditions? I bet eggnog's a stretch for a jamaican guy. I bet that's really a stretch for a jamaican family. Eggnog, I don't know.

Martha: Jim just loves eggnog. I do. He wants any excuse.

Jim: We had to make a rule in our house. Martha's a Christmas Fanatic. Let's just say that she'd like to start decorating for Christmas on november the first. We had to institute a rule. No Christmas music playing in the house because she'd play it year round. I just - you can't get those songs out of your head. So no Christmas music plays in your house until the eggnog is on the shelves . [00:15:00]

Martha: But the beautiful thing is that pretty much all the time there's eggnog somewhere, that we can find. So we've, it makes it very wonderful that I can play my Christmas music.

Jim: So what did you love about how we raised up our kids and having Christmas? Because I'm not much of a traditions guy. Do we have any traditions?

Martha: Yeah, we had traditions. Simple things that the kids always could count on, whether it was the packages of Lifesavers in their stocking, the books of the Lifesaver candies that you get all the different flavors and all that. Simple little things like that, candlelight service on Christmas Eve has always been a big part of our tradition, making sure that we're putting the focus on the right thing going into Christmas. Even observing that it's Advent, it's the coming of Christ, during the month of December to prepare our hearts.

There's so many things that you probably don't even think of as traditions.

Jim: Christmas calendar thing that you did.

Martha: Yeah. So in fact I have the calendar my mom made out of felt when I was a kid and every day[00:16:00] you put an ornament on the tree and it counts down to Christmas. Just things like that, that are staples now in our life that we just may not even think about them as traditions, but I think the bottom line is just that in the midst of all the crazy and all of, the thoughts of gifts and things like that, and the busyness of parties and stuff, is remembering the real reason why we actually celebrate.

I remember when that theme came out where the reason for the season because a lot of people have gotten, had gotten sidetracked over the years, and I love now that people understand that it is Christ's birth, and that is what we truly need to be focusing on, and so that's just an ongoing tradition.

Jim: We're just a week away from the end of the year. But today we're still focused on giving and receiving gifts with our family and close friends here on Christmas Day. Let me just say to each one of you that gives a listen or subscribe, a comment, [00:17:00] and a donation is giving us so much.

Each one of you could contribute to iWork for him in a simple way. Like a listen, a subscribe, a comment, and a donation. We're grateful for each and every one of you, not for the numbers, but because it means that you see the importance of connecting the faith with every area of your life, especially your work.

Thank you for being a part of the team and if you want to know more of some of our goals for 2025 for iWork4Him, go to iWork4Him. com / 2025 to learn more and follow the links to get involved.

All right, Lou and Sabrina, I want to talk about today, Christmas day. Your kids haven't gotten there. I don't see kids in your background just yet. So they haven't gotten there yet, but today, Christmas day, what's it going to look like today for your family on Christmas?

Lou Reynolds: Yeah. Today is, it's really all about us connecting together, being able to spend this time together. And, all of the things that sometimes throughout the year you can dismiss or not really be intentional about, we want to make sure that we highlight those things and so we'll have an [00:18:00]opportunity to talk with our kids about things that are going on and, that are really important in their life right now.

And it's not that we don't talk about those things throughout the year, but this is just a great day to be really intentional about that. What is God doing in their life? What's the direction that they see him moving in? And those are exciting conversations to have. And we just, like Sabrina was saying earlier, the day is devoted to our family really connecting and talking about how great God is, what are the amazing things that are happening in our lives?

Martha: Which is easy to do when you have a full tummy with a wonderful breakfast that you're going to prepare.

Jim: So is there bacon involved when you're cooking breakfast today? Is there bacon involved in breakfast? Okay. Is it breakfast if it's not?

Martha: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's the right question.

Jim: That's right. Bacon and eggnog. What a phenomenal breakfast.

But I wanted to ask though, the 18 and 25 year old, do they have significant others that are going to join you later on today for the celebration?

Sabrina Reynolds: Yes, our oldest does. [00:19:00] Our youngest is trying, but he has his family that, he connects with, but definitely our oldest, he has a wonderful girlfriend. We love her so dearly, and we're excited to connect with her.

Martha: Oh, that's so good. I just was going to say, we find ourselves in a very different stage, a different chapter of life right now. And so we can't always do the traditions that we've wanted to, but one of the things we've learned is being flexible and taking what God has given us and making the best of that. And, I was even thinking back to Thanksgiving this year. We actually had a change of plans and spent time with friends and family together.

And it's not about what can or cannot happen, it's what you do with what God has given you. And I think that's really important, because I know that we have friends who, maybe somebody in their family is incarcerated right now, or maybe somebody is sick and in the hospital, or whatever it might be. And it can be very disappointing [00:20:00] to not have it be the way you have this picture in your head that it's supposed to be.

But I just want to challenge everybody, when we're in those situations, to embrace them and to say, Thank you, Lord, for where I am right now and that I can see something in this that is your purpose. And so I just, it's fun to have traditions. But if we tie ourselves too much and don't allow God to show us what that might look like for a season, we can miss what he really has given us.

Jim: But you didn't really talk about our day that we're gonna have today. So we'll be spending it with my 90 and 91 year old parents, our kids that live here in Missouri, Sarah and her husband Caleb and our grand dog Huck, and likely Caleb's grandmother Janet, and we'll be having a meal together.

Yeah, I was going for spaghetti and meatballs. I don't know whether she's going to let me cook - that might be New Year's Eve. Oh, that's New Year's Eve? Yeah. Okay. All right. So what are you going to cook then today?

Martha: I'm still going to go with a traditional meal. So I love that.

Jim: We have traditions?

Martha: Yeah. For the last five years, I've made prime rib. [00:21:00]

Jim: Oh. Oh yeah. I'm all about that tradition.

Martha: And so this is a new tradition and it's you know what? This is secret right here. It's really not that hard to make so ... don't tell anybody. 

Jim: I'm excited. I love prime rib.

Martha: There you go. You know and I know you guys love Christmas, which is why we decided that we wanted to do this show together with everybody. Who knows how busy people's day are and when they're going to get a chance to listen, but we hope that they've enjoyed just this - number one, a little bit of walk down some history, as we all established here, 30 and 40 years together of Christmases. But I just hope that each and every person that is a listener of iWork4Him knows how much we care about them. And we feel like the listeners are a part of our tradition, that we have had this journey, Jim, that's going on.

Jim: I think this is our 12th Christmas show. And we've had kids join us on our Christmas show.

Martha: We have.

Jim: We've done remote Christmas shows. I think we did one from Arizona. Didn't we do one from Arizona? Yeah, when everybody was there. [00:22:00] So I'd like to end the show with us speaking a blessing over our families. Why don't you guys start first?

Lou Reynolds: Excellent. Awesome. I'm just truly grateful and thankful for, all that God has done in our family. I'm thankful for my children and for all that God has done in directing and guiding their footsteps. And I'm looking forward with great expectations for the road that God has paved for them.

The journey that they're going to walk on and praying that God would continue to do the work in their hearts to guide them, lead them in how they serve and what he wants to do and using them to be a blessing for so many others.

Sabrina Reynolds: Yeah, my prayer is that in every season that they would see his hand at work.

We know that every season is not always blissful, so we pray that they would see his hand at work in every season, that no matter what - the ups, the downs, the good, the bad, the hard, the tough, [00:23:00]that they would just see him at work, that he's there, and he's never left.

Martha: Amen.

Jim: And we pray over our family that God will bring unity back into our family.

We've had a tough year in our family, the Brangenberg family here in Missouri and across the country. And we pray that we can be united in Christ's love and forgiveness and reconciliation, and that going forward our family will be known for the love that overcame. And that looking into 2025, not only will we celebrate more grandchildren, but that we could celebrate friendships that are deep between brothers and sisters in Christ who are not only family members but also walking together with the Lord and may 2025 be a year of healing.

Martha: I think of the blessing that our my pastor prayed over us every Sunday as a child and it says may the Lord Bless you and keep you may the Lord make his face to shine upon you and give you peace.

Jim: Lou and Sabrina Reynolds from atlanta, georgia. Thanks so much for joining us for this Christmas day podcast. We [00:24:00] appreciate it.

Lou Reynolds: Thank you so much.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host jim and martha brangenberg. Merry Christmas! We're Christ followers our workplace definitely our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

12/18/24 - 2073: The CEO and the CSO

Jim: You've tuned in to iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What could that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: I think the famous statement goes something like this. Franchising ain't for sissies. In the Dwyer family from Waco, Texas, franchising is in the blood. About nine years ago, we interviewed Dina Dwyer Owens about her Undercover Boss episode and how the Dwyer group was franchising for Jesus.

Now, nine years later, we meet Brother Doug, who bought out a piece of the family franchising group and has taken franchising for Jesus to a whole nother level in DreamMaker Bath and Kitchen please welcome CSO of DreamMaker bath and Kitchen, Doug Dwyer to iWork4Him. Hey Doug. How are you?

Doug Dwyer: Good to be with you.

Jim: CSO. Doug, what does that stand for?

Doug Dwyer: It's Chief Stewarding Officer. When I bought this company 21 years ago in 2003, I had a mentor named Stanley Tam, who wrote a book called, God Owns My Business. And so that convicted me. And so when I bought the business, I prayed about it. I knew I wasn't above pride. Hey, this gets really successful, I'll think I did it and start thinking I'm better than I am.

And so I said, God, I want to make sure I help keep myself humble because I know I'm not above falling. And so I'm going to promise you that I will never name myself CEO of this company. I'm going to look to you as the CEO. And that's how a ministry, actually today that God had birthed,I didn't know that would happen, called God is CEO formalized in 2016, but really started in 2003 when I bought this company.

And then in addition, like Stanley Tam, he had converted his company into a foundation and I'm like, I didn't know how to do all that. So this was my attempt to just put God first and have a really good reminder and God's done a lot with it.

Jim: The fact that you got to meet Stanley Tam, pretty powerful. Lived to be 107, almost 108 years old and really a forefather in the faith and work movement. Pretty phenomenal.

Doug Dwyer: Oh, absolutely. I saw Stanley at 96, 99, 103, 106. I met him at 87, but I just thought, Oh, this will be the last time. And he, but yeah, God through one business guy - that guy gave over 120 million admissions in his lifetime, but the bigger number is he took a challenge that God had after he resisted four times. He says, okay, God, I'll do it. God, give me those people that don't know you, the lost of the world, if you would, and God did.

And Stanley, in a 23 year period, saw an average of three people a day come to Christ through a sign on his building, a decision card in the book he wrote, through the track that went with every part that went out of his U.S. plastics distribution center, and his personal witnessing. For 23 years straight he saw an average of three people a day come to Christ.

Martha: It's so amazing and our listeners are not foreign to hearing about Stanley Tam. Just his story, let alone what he personally was able to do, the lives he was able to touch, the ongoing effects of how it affected you, Doug, and other people like that.

My father is another one of those people that was heavily influenced by him. And so that is generational, and I love hearing that. And the CSO title really gives you an open door for conversation with people, too, that allows you probably to talk about it more than you even realized.

So tell us your Jesus story.How did Jesus intersect your life?

Doug Dwyer: So he’d been coming after me longer than I realized. I grew up in, I grew up in the church, been through different things in the church, confirmation, things of that nature. But I wasn't, I didn't ever know Jesus. I knew about Jesus. I knew about God. I believed in them, but I wasn't a follower of Jesus, right?

I was a knower and I was an obeyer some, but not a follower. There's a difference. And so I was on a, I found myself up in Washington, DC, to receive an award on I got there on a Saturday. And Sunday night was gonna be the first opening to this event and to receive this award.

And I thought, I don't like working Sundays, even at that point in my life had some Godliness about me. And anyway so I thought, you know what? I checked in my hotel. I said I'm going to see if I can't find a church. So took a walk after checking in and sure enough, I found a church. Next morning I'm in my hotel room with a little Gideon personal worker testament that a guy, a coworker, gave to me 14 years prior.

And I'm pacing my room and I'm like, wait a minute. I'm already a Christian. I don't need to do this, but God had led me, impressed me to bring that with me.And it had the little prayer in the back to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. And so I finally knelt by my bed and say, God, I just want to make sure I got this right. And said the prayer, I got up. I didn't feel any different. Say, Oh, I guess I was always a Christian!

But then, got finished getting ready. I go find that church and I go to the church and I just kneel down and start praying. the service is going on, but I'm talking to God and I say, God, I'm not sure I'm where you want me. And so the background of that at that the time we had changed the name of the company.I lost my top salesperson. We're losing 20 to 30, 000 a month at the time. Other challenges go on in my life.

And so I'm praying, I go, God, I just, I don't get it. I can't work any harder than I'm working. I never worked that many hours in my life. And I said, if you want me to do something else, show me what it is and I'll do it.And then the next thing I started to pray, I say, God, I've not been good at choosing the right woman. Would you send me the right woman? And then God said you've not been doing it my way. And I never understood what his way was till that moment. I was like, Oh yeah, no, I've been doing it the world's way.

And then before I could even start praying again, a power and an energy inside of me started to grow and grow till it was like, man, this is awesome. And then it kept growing, and I was like, Doug, you're incapable of holding this much power in. And so literally what happened was I finally just had to let go, like just cause I literally felt my chest was going to explode.

It was so intense and powerful in a church, and not a charismatic church. This is not one of those. And anyway, long story short God changed me in that moment. So what I realized, what God taught me, in the hotel room, I made Jesus savior. In that church, I made him Lord. I said, God, show me what you want me to do. And I'll do it.

Jim: We're talking today with Doug Dwyer, who is the CSO of DreamMaker Bath and Kitchen, and we're gonna get back to that story in a second, but speaking of companies that run differently than most, let's talk about Patriot Mobile for a minute.

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Patriot mobile is an affiliate partner that helps more workplace believers understand their mission field. You can become a partner by making a year end donation at iWork4Him.com/donate. All right, Doug, back to your story. I want to know DreamMaker Bath and Kitchen - you broke that out of the family franchise system and it operates different than other franchise companies. Why DreamMaker Bath and Kitchen?

Doug Dwyer: I took over a company that was a different brand that I was running, it was privately owned where we had the majority of all the other franchise brands which were part of a public company called the Dwyer group.

And we were considered the Dwyer group but privately owned and we sold off the Dwyer group. That was the time I bought this company in 2003. And I had taken it from being a refinishing company, tub and tile refinishing to a full service kitchen, bath, interior remodeling company. I like to say the wives love us and the husband's not as much cause of the money, but not that there's not a lot of wives that buy the kitchens themselves.

There's definitely a lot of independent successful ladies out there. We're happy for all of them. And yeah so we moved into that brand and grew it. So we just had our 25th anniversary this summer for DreamMaker. And yeah, we have design centers and we have locations in 23 States across the US right now.

Jim: So how is DreamMaker Bath & Kitchen different from other franchise companies?

Doug Dwyer: I think, when I came to Christ May 20th of 2000, I remember God saying, okay, now I want you to bring me into your work with you. And I was like, I don't know how to do that. Like I go to work, you just work (laughing) but through great blessings and great challenges, God has taught me three things.

He taught me a thing called the call to live with love, with excellence, and truth, and love is relational, right? Jesus died on the cross so we can become part of his family. Excellence is measurable, has to do with stewardship. And then truth is biblical. For us, it's Christian biblical truth.

And so we, we've built our organizations, all organizations we've built, on a code of values, but the twist with DreamMaker is God had me search the book of Proverbs and undergird all those values with a proverb. And so that's how we run the organization. So that would be different than most and our mission as a franchise, so this is a franchise or a franchisee, is to glorify God and all that we do, to be faithful stewards of all that we've been entrusted with, that includes our time, talent and treasures and making a profit, and then the last one is to positively impact lives.

And it ties to my dad's mission statement to teach our principles and systems of personal and business success so that all the people we touch live happier, more successful lives.So with that mission and those code of values as the guard rails on how to grow the organization and prayer in an appropriate way as part of our culture and how we do things. And so that's quite a bit different that you have a national company with a mission statement to glorify God as the opener.

Martha: Yeah, and it's very clear by just hearing you explain those things that really are foundational to your organization that people can hear that, they can see well, that's not something I hear all the time. Now hopefully our iWork4Him listeners are hearing that more than others because that is what we talk about here on iWork4Him, but you are making a huge impact by that very specific intentional. This isn't decisions that you've made.

Okay, so let's talk about 2008. I understand this was a very big year for you because you got married that year, but it was also the beginning of some really ugly times in the U.S. economy. What happened to DreamMaker during that time?

Doug Dwyer: Yes.

Martha: Sorry. Do you want to go there?

Doug Dwyer: So it actually started in July of 07 but there's a lot of stuff there, but let me stick with where you're pointing. December of 2007 was the beginning of the great recession, right? So by April of that year, we have just had three months of decline, serious decline, but I didn't know it because our financials were done by another company.

Anyway, we didn't have all the data. So then my director of marketing, She was going in for brain surgery. Number three, first franchisee and a Christian franchisee just decided he would go independent, even though we helped increase his gross profit margin by like 150%.And then there was, Oh, and then we had a guy lie that we had come on board to take care of a certain department. And we had to let him go, but because of a technicality on an agreement, we had to pay 26, 000 between attorney's fees and him.

Anyway, so you had all that and then I'm being blessed with one of the greatest blessings of my entire life. I get married April 26th of 2008. And so I, I'm going on my honeymoon and I've been in business long enough I go I give it six weeks before I need to downsize the company if things don't start turning around. And in that crazy time I get back with my wife and we're reading in the Bible in Proverbs 27 and anyway two of them stood out.

And God taught me right then, know the condition of your flocks and pay careful attention to your herds. So that means love people. That's where he taught me the call to live with love. Love people, know them and love them Love your neighbors as yourself. And then the second thing was the prudent see  danger and take refuge; the simple keep going and suffer for it or, get clobbered, in the message Bible. I liked that one. (laughter)

So I found out when I got back, I had to downsize the company, and over a year's time, I went through four downsizings. I went from 32 employees, the lowest point we got to eight. The franchise organization shrunk down. Our revenue in a four year period went down 58%. It was painful and long.

But in that, God taught me the call to live with truth. The full gospel is there's joy in pain and those both shape us and grow us. And in the pain, frankly, it's actually where God gives you the innovations individually to become more like Christ and gives you the innovations in the business to improve it, if we'll just keep our eyes on him, go through it.

Now, is it easy? Do I want to do that every day? No, like anybody. Boy, but it bears big fruit and it teaches us. So in all that and then I remember in ‘04 we made a profit after coming out of that bad season originally. And that's when God says I want you to do this business with excellence.And there's a picture behind me of Jesus consulting a businessman. And that was the picture I was looking at when we just made a profit. And I'm like, Oh, it's awesome, man. I want to enjoy this. And God goes. Now I want you to do this with excellence, Doug. And I'm like, can I just enjoy it, Lord?

And he's like, yeah today, but it's a business you got to keep going. So it's hard boy, but it's joyous and it bears fruit. So anyway, that's maybe more than you asked, but that's what shows up for me.

Jim: But it's good to have that perspective because obviously things are better today than they were in 2008. The economy was rough. You lived in Texas and we lived in Florida and the economy in Texas and Florida and Arizona, all three states were just a mess, that a lot of the rest of the country wasn't in. So when you look at today, you've got - how many families does your franchising organization serve today?

Cause this is a ministry. This is a biznistry as we like to call it, thanks to Chuck Proudfit out of Cincinnati, Ohio. How many families are you servicing or impacted by at the headquarters and the franchisees across the country?

Doug Dwyer: Then you got their workers and the subcontracts. It's hundreds and hundreds. I haven't ever really added up all those numbers. And then the clients that we serve. I know I have the number in my head thinking in 2030 where we want to be at 100 locations. right now we're at 43 locations.

And out in the future, it'll be 4 to 5, 000 families a year we will impact in their homes plus the team. So probably 5, 000 people. So now it's probably, yeah, a thousand, thousand plus people a year that we're impacting. And what's cool, through all that pain and stuff we went through is, God was doing a bigger work behind the scenes as our average unit store sales in 2011, we're doing 495, 000 last year our average unit did one 1,513,000.  

Jim: That’s incredible. Wow, so when you look at all that God has done and you get the perspective of where you came fro,m those were some rough days. How would you say your faith has been impacted by seeing how God has worked once you finally made him CEO of the company?

Doug Dwyer: Yeah, it's a growth process, right? So you go through different layers of it, but I tell you what, it's attracted some really good people to the team, that want to be part of something like this. And you always want great people. In fact, I have a gentleman that was a consultant of ours and top marketing guy in our industry for design build interior, home remodeling.

He helped build a company in 1999 to 2013. Anyway,  when he got there, there were 19 million. He helped them grow to 52 million. And anyway, he was a consultant for nine years with us and his wife his wife says, you're happier every time you come back from working with DreamMaker, but you're always frustrated with the other clients.

Anyway, long story short, a couple of years ago, he called me and he ended up closing down his business, taking a severe pay cut because he felt called to come work for us. So now he's on staff as our director of marketing. That's just a miracle, right? That's a Marketplace minister, right? He is here and now he's doing our marketing and doing some phenomenal things to take us to the next level.

God as CEO is, you pray for a meeting and then God may change the agenda. And we have to be open to that and let him lead it. And I don't do it perfectly. Nobody does. But we can do it with excellence. And that means we'll admit when we're wrong and we just give it our best every day.

Martha: I love this conversation because obviously we're talking to you at a time when things are going well, you've gone through a lot of different stages with your company. And I think it's important for our listeners, Jim, to hear that it's not always easy. Like you had some really tough seasons, but as a result, you're seeing lives be changed and the support that you're able to give to those people.

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Jim: Doug, when we did a kind of a pre interview several months ago, you went through some keys that you love to teach your franchisees and others about operating a business as a Jesus follower. What are a couple of those keys that you bring up and that you disciple people with?

Doug Dwyer: There's practical things that you have to do. So building a culture, I think it's critical to get a shared set of values in writing, we call it a code of values here at DreamMaker. And in that code of values - so I’ll give you an example. Our first one is we believe in superior service to our customers, our community, and to each other as members of the DreamMaker team. And the proverb that goes with that is Proverbs 21:5 - good planning and hard work lead to prosperity, but hasty shortcuts lead to poverty.

And then I'd like to share one more. We believe management should seek out and recognize what people are doing right and treat every associate with respect. And it's Proverbs 18:21. We used five translations to make, almost make it like a study situation. But the proverb with that one is 18:21 - words kill, words give life. They're either poison or fruit you choose.

So just, you can't argue with the common sense of proverbs in business and Truitt Kathy, who was a mentor to me just through one weekend, but what he built and Dan Kathy and Bubba, who I've got to meet over the years. So we have to learn to put legs to the verses and that's how you bring God into your business, is we need to bring it with love, customer service, care, care for our employees, knowing them, excellence.

We measure things. It takes measurements. It's hard work. You don't do it all overnight to become excellent. So getting a code of values in place and have a system for doing that and with God as CEO Ministry, GodasCEO.org, you could go watch how to build your own code of values out there and how do you build that, how do you do that.

So that's a huge, we built a today what was the Dwyer group now is called Neighborly, which is a multi billion dollar, over 5, 000 locations, nine countries, but the backbone to that, the foundation of that is this code of values I'm talking about. So you can use it as a model to help build your own.

So that's one thing, but it's understanding back to that, the simple practical things of the great command, love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, right? That you're going to prioritize relationships over money. It doesn't mean you keep somebody on that doesn't perform, right?

That's not wisdom. But it's that idea of being intentional about love, right? Love people. Then it's love your neighbor as yourself. How do we love our staff? Do we know them? Do we take care of them? And do we care for them? Our franchisees, do we go the extra mile, right? And take care of them as the Bible would teach us.

Those are all those practical things that I like to lead. That's part of stewardship. That's part of building things up with excellence. And frankly, if we live out those, and if you think about what's the famous verse, verse in first Corinthians 13, love is patient, love is kind, it does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It is not self seeking. It keeps no records of wrong. It does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always perseveres, always hopes, et cetera.

So if we could just live that out in practical terms with love, relationships with excellence means stewardship grounded in God's truth, then our business will kill it, right? That will win the respect of God and men, which the Bible calls us to do. So that's really part of how I would try to get that across to people. It's very practical. It's very real. And I'll give you an example.

We did a test pilot project with Chick fil A with Mr.Rudder, our plumbing company back many years ago in the late nineties. And our technician got to their location three hours late. I'm the president of the national accounts company we had, I get a phone call from the VP that really is running it and you really need to hear this message.

And I get this call from a VP from Chick fil A headquarters saying, we really want to apologize for our operator and how they treated your technician. And I'm thinking why are they apologizing to us? Our guy was three hours late. They're apologizing because their guy lost their cool and treated our technician roughly which you would expect, right? Oh, we deserved it, kind of thing.

And this guy apologizes for that, and then he goes on to say, hey, as stewards of God we do not want you to think that's how people should be treated or operate. I was like, wow, if I could run a business that has a bar that high, that is awesome. And then years later for me to meet these folk, but the point there is when you follow God, he will ultimately over time create ways for you to operate at a level that other people go, how the heck do you do that?

Cause in running a business, you barely have the time to do the things that you screw up, much less you didn't hold to your highest, the super high standard. And Chick fil a has done phenomenal. I know their stats and their average freestanding store does 9. 2 million now, which is almost double McDonald's.

But it's a long game. It's not a short game, right? It takes a while to get the foundation but in the long run, like he's done with DreamMaker, like he's done with chick fil a, you'll get there. But the thing is you don't have to lose your family, your health, your marriage, you know, the blessings of the Lord. The blessings of the Lord add riches, but he adds no sorrow with it. So if we stay in pace with the Lord, it'll happen over time, but you're gonna have to go through trials You're gonna go through pain because if he blesses you or me too fast, we'll get ruined because we can't handle it, flesh wise. So it'll be a process of just trust in that and know there's a bigger game going on, which has eternal impact. How many people can we help make it to heaven?

Jim: Yeah, Doug, you mentioned earlier, and as we close out the show that you've got 43 franchisees spread across the country, but you're looking to grow toward 100 by 2030, which is good grief, just five years away from now.

If somebody wants, if they've been inspired by your story today and by hearing your heart and say I want to be a part of that franchising organization, how does somebody get ahold of you? If they listened to that iWork4Him and it wouldn't be the first time that somebody bought a franchise because they heard a story of a franchisor on iWork4Him, how would somebody get ahold of you?

Doug Dwyer: You can email me at Doug dot DWYER at DreamMaker. That's two M's in the middle DreamMaker BK for bath and kitchen. com or just call me at 2 5 4 5 2 3 9 5 7 7.

Jim: If you've ever thought of starting your own business and don't want to have to recreate the wheel and you know a successful model, if you like one and you love seeing kitchens and baths turned right side up, it sounds like a no brainer and to be able to work under the auspices of a guy that's figured out how to glorify God while redoing kitchens and baths.

That's fantastic because there's no more frustration in the world than redoing your kitchen or your bath. If you get somebody else to do it and glorify God at the same time, it sounds fantastic. Doug, 30 seconds or less - any advice for those Christian business owners, those stewards, those CSOs out there listening, any advice for them from the bottom of your heart to the people that are listening today?

Doug Dwyer: Make God CEO of your business, whether that's on paper, that's secondary to being in your heart. What I've learned is dreams come true God's way, but it happens first by surrender and in the surrender to God continually of Oh, bigger's better, all that. No, God, what do you want?

What's the impact you want? So in that then transformation will happen and dreams will come through God's way. And it's about obedience. Stanley Tam taught me that just be obedient. Delayed obedience is disobedience. Be obedient. We're not going to be perfect. Don't let the devil kill you on that stuff, but just stick with the Lord. Surrender to his stuff every day. God, what do you want me to do? And follow him.

And it may be slower, and what one guy taught me a long time ago and with the Lord, I found this to be true, is what appears to be the slow way is the fast way. Cause in the end you'll get the root system personally and in the business that will be able to help it scale better and have a greater impact in this world and for eternity.

Jim: Check out Doug online DreamMaker franchise.com DreamMaker franchise. com And of course, we'll put all of Doug's contact information in the show notes Doug Dwyer Thanks for being on iWork4Him today.

Doug Dwyer: Pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

12/11/24 - 2072: The Power of Collective Prayer - at Work!

Jim: You've tuned in to iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What could that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Jesus did it, and he was the Son of God. Do you do it? Do you pray? Really pray? Growing up, I thought prayer was boring and inconsequential. Today, I know that prayer is limitless and boundless and has no rules. It's about talking and listening to my Heavenly Father, building an eternity long relationship.

But can I do all that at work? Is it even legal? What if I told you that it's not only legal, it can make a huge impact on your work culture? Okay, so you think I'm saying it's okay to pray with employees when they agree? Now it's so much more than that. We're going to talk with Pam Mann from Regent Bank and she's going to tell you how the prayer team at Regent Bank prays for employees and their families, but also wait for it, their customers.

Pam Mann is VP and an internal control officer at Regent Bank. So you know she's been tracking what God has been up to at Regent Bank, and she's also willing to work within the controls that the FDIC places. I can't wait for you to hear Pam's story. Pam Mann, welcome to iWork4Him.

Pam Mann: Thank you for having me.

Jim: I hope you'll still be thanking us at the end. It won't be this bad. I worked in a bank as an insurance agent for many years. And so I know bankers aren't used to over controlled, under controlled or out of control. That's it. Out of control. Out of control. They're not used to anything out of control.

Not having control. All right, Pam, we can't wait for you to talk about the prayer team at Regent Bank. But first we want to hear about your Jesus story. How did you become a Jesus follower?

Pam Mann: A little bit different story. My parents were both Christians, but for whatever reason, they didn't go to church, but growing up, we lived two doors down from a pretty large church in West Tulsa. And I was probably in first grade and somebody came to the door. I was invited to vacation Bible school one summer. And I went and I had a blast and I had friends from school that went to that same church. And I just started going every Sunday by myself and I was saved when I was around eight years old.

And then the rest is history. I've just grown in my faith over the years and met my husband who is a strong believer as well. And we've just both grown in our faith. So a little bit different story, but since I was a kid.

Jim: Did you meet your husband in Sunday school? Met at church?

Pam Mann: No, we met in college. .

Jim: Okay.

Martha: You never know. Jim's making up stories here. (laughter) Okay, as Jim said, you work for Regent Bank, how long have you been in banking?

Pam Mann: So I've been with Regent for almost six years. I've been in banking, it's going to age me a little bit... probably over 30 years. I spent about 15 years with the Federal Reserve, in the Federal Reserve System. And I also worked for a large bank here in Oklahoma but had the opportunity - God's just led me to Regent almost six years ago. And that was a whole nother story. It was a step of faith for us to move back to Oklahoma and I had not heard of Regent bank and knew a few people here, and here I am and absolutely love it.

So I've been banking for over 30 years. And in audit. All of that has been in audit. I'm a career auditor.

Jim: Wow. Anybody that's ever worked in a banking system and they know auditors... when auditors walk into a bank, people get the chills. They literally get freaked out. In fact, one time, Pam, just in full disclosure, there were auditors, so I had a business partner who was a banker. And my agency was in a bank back in southwestern Minnesota, and there was auditors in the basement one day, and I bought donuts for everybody in the bank that day. And I came down and I offered the auditors a donut and they're like, you can't offer us donuts. It's like a bribe. I'm like, it's a doughnut people.

 (laughter)

Jim: I just, there was a great bakery in town with the best doughnuts in the world, by the way, Bob and Emily, how you doing? Seriously. And they were like, that's like a crime. I'm like, yeah. It's a donut. It's the best donut on the planet. That's when I realized that auditors have, they have no sense of humor, but you're laugh, Pam. So you must have a sense of humor.

Pam Mann: I have a sense of humor.

Martha: Yes. She still abides by rules.

Jim: I thought I was going to jail that day for offering a donut to an auditor.

Martha: Oh man.

Jim: All right. So you've worked at other banks, other than Regent bank, were they different? Regent, the cultures, were they different?

Pam Mann: Yes, clearly different. The culture here is unique and you guys probably well know that. I have had people come in and they'll talk to me and they're like, it just feels different here. You can just feel it in how people are treated here. It's family. Whether they're clients or I've had friends that have come to visit me or meet me for lunch or whatever, they're like, it just feels different.

And until you've been here, it's really hard to explain. But other places I've worked, people knew I was Christian. They knew I taught Sunday school. They knew I did, all the things, deacon's wife... but it wasn't where I could just, I never felt like I could openly pray for my co workers or friends.

I could tell them I'll pray for them if something was going on, but there wasn't that open dialogue. Like here, I will have people come in my office all the time and say, Hey, this is going on. Or, Hey, can you guys pray for me? Or they'll send it to the prayer team. And it really is just a unique culture and I personally feel very blessed by it, but I know our employees and our clients do too.

Jim: You said at the beginning of the show that it was a God story how you ended up at Regent bank. I think maybe you should share that story.

Pam Mann: Okay, so about six and a half seven years ago we were in dallas, my husband and I were in dallas working, and really felt God calling us back to Oklahoma. This is our, this is home for us. A lot of things were going on. My mom's health was declining. Our son was having some serious mental health issues and we really felt like it was time to go back. Plus our first grandchild was being born. That was important.

So we really did feel like God was calling us back. I had, we were here for the summer for a vacation and I was having lunch with a former coworker friend that I used to work with and she knew somebody that worked here and she said, Hey, they had lunch like the week after, because I told her, I said, Hey, if you hear of anything, let me know. We're thinking about moving back. I said, but probably not till later on six, seven months down the road.

Long story short, he reached out to me and said, Hey, we're going to create an audit department. Would you be interested? I was like, absolutely. So I sent in my resume. We were home for Christmas to visit family. We were here for about a week. I came in, interviewed for the position and here I am. Started the internal audit shop from the ground up here, and I absolutely love it here. It's been awesome.

Martha: Talk about an opportunity to use all of the experience and the giftings that God has given you. It's just such a miraculous story, because if they didn't already have that department, you may not have even had that opportunity to use it in that environment.

Pam Mann: Exactly. It's been a fun ride. It's been, it's busy, but it's been fun.

Jim: I absolutely love it. And if you want to know how fun it is, you got to go back to listen to a couple of podcasts we've done with the boss, the one of the owners of Regent bank. Sean Copeland, and then you'll know why she's talking about what a great place it is.

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Martha: All right. So Pam, I am just very curious in having you share with our listeners how you got started praying at Regent bank. Cause there's quite a story here.

Pam Mann: It is. And honestly it was Sean Copeland. So our CEO, God, he felt God telling him, you need to start a prayer team. And so he came in one Tuesday morning, sent out an email to all employees and said, Hey, we're going to start a prayer team. If you would be interested in joining, just send an email to me and let me know.

So there was another employee, she's no longer here. She was actually leading it for about a year before she left the bank. And so when she left, Sean was like, Hey, will you lead this prayer team? And I've been leading it for several years now. But it was one of those.. Sean followed God's leading, and he reached out. And it's not mandatory, and we have over 25 amazing prayer warriors on this team, and I love each and every one of them with my whole heart. And I, this is not a Pam team, this is the prayer team, and I absolutely love it.

Jim: Now, as a prayer team what's your mission? Who are you praying with? When it started off, who were you praying for, and now, who are you praying for?

Pam Mann: Everyone that reaches out to us. So we have our, so we have two different emails. We have one that's for employees that they can send to us. It's an internal email box. But then we actually have another one that was created for external. So whether they're clients or whether they've heard about Regent from one of Sean's podcast or whatever it might be, and that one is actually prayer request at Regent dot. com And it comes to me and then I send it out to our prayer team.

But one of our things that we actually do is we promise those that we receive a prayer request, we stop and pray right then at our desk and we pray for them. And then, being the auditor and I track everything, I actually keep a list every week. So I keep track of here's our praises for the week because we want to celebrate those and then we have our prayer requests and then everyone, we meet every Thursday morning for about 30 minutes and we just do a team's call with our prayer team and whoever's available. But I send that out at wednesday afternoon.

So everybody has the updated but as they come in during the week, we get those throughout the week and then we just culminate them. And then what I did at the end of the year last year at the beginning of this year, I should say, is I was like we've had a lot of really awesome praises this year. I just went back and pulled all those together and that was pretty amazing just to see that.

Martha: You know, and Jim and I thought that was so cute when we heard Sean sharing this one time and he was like, he was surprised that you had put together a list. And we're like, she's the auditor. Of course she does. But it's beautiful. (laughter)

Jim: She's auditing God. She's saying, did he do the work he's supposed to do or the I's dotted and the T's crossed? (laughter)

Martha: But that's the cool thing is celebrating the praises so often we forget to focus on that. And again, just looking at how God has equipped you and using your gifts. Not only in prayer, but in your career to put you in such a position and to be able to keep track of it all. Because there are some people that would not be on their radar to, Oh, let's actually track this to see and be able to celebrate what God is doing and the ones to continue lifting up.

Okay, you talked about you have 30, you said 30 some people, I think, or 25 people on your prayer team. That's so awesome. What does that look like? You have the emails and the prayer requests that come in for people internally, but then you also get things externally from people. What does that look like to be praying for those clients, your customers and beyond?

Pam Mann: So if we receive from an external at the prayer request at Regent dot bank. I will actually, because that only comes to me. As just the way it's been set up. And so I will actually reply back to them. And we will try to follow up with some. There have been a couple, one was a a serviceman. He was in the military and had a major surgery. And I think his mom had reached out to us. We actually sent him a card. It just depends. So that's what it looks like.

But those go to the prayer team as well. And they're on our list and we pray for them. We follow up. They're a little harder to follow up on versus the internal because they may or may not always reply that the internal we can follow up with, cause we will have clients that know about our prayer team and they will tell their banking officer, Hey, this is going on. Can you pray for me? And that officer may send us the prayer request. So it's, there's a lot of ways that these prayer requests get to us.

And it's not even just the email. Like I said, people will stop by my office or they'll stop by other people's offices and say, Hey, can you guys pray for me? This is what's going on in my world right now. And it's just really amazing to see how this is just all played out. And it's just amazing.

Jim: We were together in October in Tulsa at the 94X conference and there was a banker from Minnesota talking about how they did drive thru prayer. Like people were in the drive thru going, Hey, can you pray for me? And people pray. Do you guys get an opportunity to pray with clients right there? When they come into the bank lobby, you got bank lobbies all across Oklahoma and one year in Springfield, Missouri and online at Regent dot bank, of course, and also believe dot bank. Talk to me about, do you get a chance to pray with people right then and there?

Pam Mann: I have with employees. I personally haven't with clients. I can't speak for others because I don't have that direct client interfacing every day. But I have with employees for sure. And it's possible that some of our other employees have, and I just don't always hear about it. But the interactions that we have with our clients we have clients to say, Hey, this is what's going on because we have those relationships with our clients. We know if they're struggling with health issues and things like that, and we will pray for them.

Martha: What an amazing reputation that Regent Bank has established in their communities and being able to have that open book and saying, we want to pray for you.

Speaking of prayer, our listeners might want to know more about the iWork4Him Nation, which helps us all walk through steps that encourage us to pray for and with the people that we work with. You can find out more at iWork4Him. com forward slash join the nation. And I also want to mention at the end of the year, we have a special on our books. You can email me at Martha at iWork4Him. com to purchase a gift wrapped edition of iWork4Him sheWorks4Him, or iRetire4Him to send to those on your Christmas list.

Yes, we will wrap it for you. And they are just $5 each. What a special deal that is. And Jim, are you wrapping those gifts?

Jim: No, not me. (laughter) I could wrap them, but I'm more preferable to the gift bag guy, a little of that squishy, tissue paper.

Pam, I want to know stories. I want to hear stories. And I know you can't mention names and that's fine, but tell us some amazing stories that have come through the prayer that happens at Regent dot bank.

Pam Mann: Okay. There's several. There's a lot. Could go on for hours, honestly. But I'm going to talk about just a few from when we knew we're going to do this. So there's one actually, so one of the nurses at OU children's, her mom, she knows this little girl and I had followed this little girl on Facebook and her story, and she's just had so many health issues and she had been in the hospital. And she was very sick. And the doctors had finally got to the point they were like, they called the family in, they called the siblings in to say goodbye. And they did like handprints and footprints and all the things. Everything we knew, it really did sound like that as we were following her story.

And we just continued to pray for this family along with so many people, because her story was all over social media. And I will tell you this little girl had the most miraculous turnaround. She still has a lot of health issues, but she is home and she's ready to celebrate Christmas with her family. And it's just been an amazing story to see what that family's walked through. And I still follow their family on social media, but another one that's really close to us, so just recently within the last couple months, one of our sweet, dear coworkers, she and her husband were expecting their first child. And that's such an exciting time, but bless her heart, that pregnancy was just rough from day one, with so many things. And it was just heartbreaking to see her walk through that.

But her little girl was born about 4-5 weeks early and maybe a little bit more than that. She only weighed 2. 5 pounds. She was super tiny but Perfect in God's creation. And four weeks to the day from when she was born, she went home and we're actually having her baby shower this afternoon and she will be here this afternoon.

But we prayed for our sweet friend from day one for the pregnancy, from the sickness, for all the complications that she was having. And now we get to celebrate this new little life. And honestly, like when she was born, she was perfectly healthy. She was just tiny. She was on no oxygen, none of those things. So she was just tiny.

But I will tell you, I have a personal story. This was pre prayer team. But you asked about the culture at Regent banks. I think this will tell your listeners, just the culture here. So I had only been with the bank about six months and, My second grandson was born and to us, we thought he was perfectly healthy. Eight and a half pound, chunky little boy . At five weeks old - my, my daughter's a NICU nurse and she was like, something's not right and called the pediatrician, took him in. They immediately took him to the hospital, started running tests. He was in heart failure. He had to be lifelighted to Oklahoma city to OU children's.

And he had a congenital heart defect that no one knew about. And it was undetected. And he had to have major open heart surgery. And let's see if I can get through this without tears. And so anyway, I had, Sean had messaged me because I had messaged a few people and said, Hey, our family needs prayers. I won't be in for a couple of days. This is what's going on. Sean messaged me 4 a. m. and said, Hey, we are praying for Graham and you just let us know what you need. That morning, my husband and I were sitting in the cardiac ICU room waiting room at OU Children's and it was just he and I all alone in there. Nobody else was there. My daughter and son in law were back with our grandson.

Unbeknownst to me, Sean had told there was somebody different doing - because we have a daily devotional as well - Sean had told whoever the gentleman that was leading that devotional what was going on at that time. There were about a hundred thousand people on the call that morning and they prayed for Graham and I will tell you Graham is now five years old.

He's in pre k. He's a thriving healthy little happy chicken loving little boy. He has, he's a chicken farmer. So he loves his chickens but that just tells you about the culture of the bank that this whole organization - I had only been here six months. They rallied around my daughter, my son in law, my husband and I, as we were walking through that and for about that month and a half that we were going back and forth to the hospital and all the things and it's just amazing.

So those are just a few and also those are all kids, but we've had adults that have had cancer that we have seen healed. So it's just been amazing to see all the answered prayers that have taken place. It's been pretty cool.

Jim: Not all answers are yes though, are they Pam?

Pam Mann: No, they're not. They're not. And there's one that we just all went through this past summer. So it was, and I'll see if I can do this one without tears, cause this one was pretty heartbreaking too. So we had a sweet coworker about a year and a half ago died, I guess it was June of 23, was diagnosed with a very aggressive, rare form of cancer. And she went down to MD Anderson and went through seven weeks of grueling treatment and I know the details of what she went through and grueling is about the only way to describe what she went through.

She had her first scan after that. They said there was one spot of cancer. We were so excited with it because they were like just a couple radiation treatments. You should be good. She came home. She did the treatment. She went back for another scan and the cancer had spread. And she's a fighter. And she's, I'm not giving up. So she continued treatment. But then probably in about July, she had another scan and the cancer had spread more and so clearly God was not answering prayers, our prayers the way we wanted.

We wanted her with us. We thought she was coming back to work soon. God had other plans for her. It was really hard for all of us, but out of that and I honestly, I thought maybe she was going to be with us at least maybe three or four more weeks but I felt God calling Hey, just go check on her, go see her.

So several of us went to her house Friday evening after work. And we got, we had the sweetest time because when we walked in the door, her husband told us it was that end stage. So she was struggling some with just being tired and things. And so he told us, he said, she may struggle.

It was like, we just had our sweet friend back. We laughed, we cried, but we prayed. But we also had a time to just to talk to her about her faith. And I can promise you that I will see her in heaven again someday. So we lost her. We saw her on a Friday night and she went to heaven three days later. So that is one of those visits that I will forever be grateful for. I will forever be grateful that I followed God's timing, that we all followed God's push to go see her now. But it was the sweetest visit. We have a picture that we took that night because she was like, we're going to take a picture and we did and it was just a great time. But it was one of those that God answered our prayers, but not the way we wanted.

We wanted her here with us. We want her back in the office with us. That wasn't his plan. She is in heaven celebrating Christmas with him this year. And there's been others, but that's the one that really was the most recent and really just hit home.

Martha: I know that's so hard to share, but it's so important that all of those steps of the journey are a part of the story, including your obedience to say, I feel like we need to go visit her now and spend time with her talking about her faith and praying with her and things like that.

So one last thing I'd like for you to do is to just speak some words of encouragement to people that are listening that may be in charge or may work at some kind of an establishment that doesn't have a prayer team, but they think this is a good next step for them and in obedience. What can you say to them to encourage them right now?

Pam Mann: I would just say if you feel led, just do it. You can do it in the workplace. And if you read Sean's 94 X book, it walks you through all of that. You don't make it mandatory. You just say, if you're interested, feel free to join us. But I also would say you don't have to be a bible scholar to do this. I am not a bible scholar. I just, you can easily do it if you feel led just do it and God will take it from there. You just have to let God use you. And so that's exactly what I have done because I like I said, i'm not a bible scholar. Yes. I've taught sunday school. But we just honestly, we have it and there's lots of ways you can do it.

The way we do it is we'll have a short devotional Every thursday morning and I usually just use like the bible app or I have several devotional books at my desk and i'll just Open it up and where it's really cool to see what God opens up on that particular day and we'll share that and then we just go through the praises and the prayer request and updates and we pray and we're done within 30 minutes, 25 minutes. And but I would just say If God's leading you, just do it. You won't regret it. You won't regret it. And if your boss asks you to do it, just do it.

Jim: That's right. You never tell Sean Copeland no, period. Listen, a couple of plugs here. If you're looking for a great bank, Regent dot bank. Martha and I moved all of our banking there. Phenomenal bank with a heart of gold. Regent dot bank. And if you have a prayer request at regent dot bank. Pam Mann, thank you so much for sharing your story today. Thanks so much for being on iWork4Him.

Pam Mann: Thank you so much for having me. This was a pleasure.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.

12/4/24 - 2071: Disrupting Religion

Jim: You've tuned into iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What could that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: Religion is about money, power, and control. You may be saying to yourself Jim, Christianity is a world religion. And I'll say to you, It is not supposed to be all about the organization or the buildings, but about the supernatural rescue plan that our Heavenly Father executed on behalf of his backward, wayward, sinful, and rebellious children.

God sent Jesus to rescue us by way of complete surrender, even surrender unto the cross. Did Jesus intend on creating a new religion? I'd say no. Jesus came to put a knife in the heart of religion and put a stop to the slavery inflicted on others in the name of religion and to set us all free. The religious people hated Jesus. You know this because they're the ones that killed him. So where does that leave us? How do we get the religious people out of the way and celebrate what Jesus did for us in setting us free to live life to the fullest and not under the heavy finger of religious folks?

We need to disrupt religion and focus on the freedom Christ provided for us. Jesus came to set the captives free, not to put them under a yoke of religion, but a yoke of righteousness. Colin Ferreira saw this all from a clear perspective and decided to write about it in his latest book, Disrupting Religion. Colin Ferreira, welcome to iWork4Him.

Colin Ferreira: Thank you. Thank you, Jim and Martha. It's good to be here.

Jim: Colin, we're going to go deep into the discussion about your book, Disrupting Religion, and tie it into why we're talking about this on a faith and work related show. But first, tell us how you became a follower of Jesus.

Colin Ferreira: I was 27 at the time, pretty much, very much in the world, and but always had a sensitivity to God and I was searching, yet I was not searching because I was living pretty wild. But anyway, I got to a point where I remember telling my mom, I said, Mom, I'm done praying. I'm never going to pray again, ever. Because I can't find him. And two weeks later, I got involved in a, what you call a Ponzi scheme. Never been involved in one before. My, my very prim and proper secretary got me into it.

And so I said, I thought it was fine, and I knew I was gambling and I started making money really quickly. And then I started to see people in a frenzy with this thing as it was spreading. And God opened my eyes and said, son, if you want to know me, you want to find me, you got to give all this up, give it away to the poor and just surrender to me.

And that day I did, and something radical took place that day, I could not believe it. My friends couldn't believe it. My family couldn't believe it. It was radical. And from there, I never turned back. It has been a journey. But one of the key things that followed right after that was I said to God, I have got to see your relevance in my life. I got to feel relevance where I spend most of my life or waking hours and it was business .

And I said, so I got to see where you fit into this, not the weekend thing. And that set me on a journey of experiences and searching and pain and amazing miracles that kind of plunged me into marketplace ministry at that time.

Jim: And we're going to, we're going to touch that as we go. But you also said to the Lord, after you became a believer that, okay, I've dated a lot of women. And I don't really know who's the best choice for me as my wife. That's what you said. I did too. And you said, I'm not going to date until God, you bring somebody into my life that's the right wife for me. How long did that take?

Colin Ferreira: I thought it would take one year because I was 27. I had a home, I had a great job. And I thought, okay, God, within a year, he's going to send me my wife. But after one year, I said, God, what is going on? I'm going mad. I'm going nuts. I'm not used to this. And he said, if I gave you what you asked for, would it be fair to her?

And then I realized, oh my God, I got a while because I wanted something really good. And I had a lot of cleaning up to do. So that took seven years. Seven years of waiting, seven years of just dark, a dark seven years. Then he sent my wife from Iowa. She was 20. I was 33 and I just got used to shutting off and not thinking. He sent her to Trinidad and we connected there.

Jim: She was on a mission trip.

Colin Ferreira: She was, yeah, she was on a mission to find a husband and she didn't know that, but(laughter) that's what it was. And we very quickly realized it was a move of God and seven months later we were married. We only spent two and a half months together face to face. It was like one of those arranged marriages in other cultures. You just know that, but we are now 34 years married.

Martha: Wow.

Colin Ferreira: With nine wonderful kids.

Jim: And it was an arranged marriage. I mean it was an arranged marriage. By God. It was arranged.

Colin Ferreira: It was certainly arranged.

Martha: Actually, when you just said that, that kind of hit a lightbulb for me. I'm like, actually, God arranged our marriage. But we need to acknowledge that. It's just very different. Okay. So you answered a couple of questions in there. Obviously, about your accent. You were born and raised in Trinidad then. Is that correct? So what brought you to the U S was it your marriage?

Colin Ferreira: No, like I said, I got very involved in marketplace ministry and I began to pioneer marketplace ministry in Trinidad and the Southern Caribbean and I started hosting conferences and getting involved, and so I was just doing a lot of marketplace ministry and trying to expand. I opened the eyes of people to understand that life is really in the marketplace. That's where our waking hours are, that's where the world lives, pretty much in the marketplace.

And so that was my passion and I was going guns and doors were opening and everything was just going right. It was hard. It was very hard at times and lots of miracles and seeing God breakthrough in ways that became testimonies for a radio program that I was doing every three days a week called God at work. So there was all this stuff going. And in 2005, I was the president of the international Christian chamber of commerce chapter in Trinidad. And I used that neutral organization to mobilize all of the Christian denominations, which had never come together before.

And it was hard, but to get them all together for the global day of prayer and the event came off fantastic. And then the day after that, God pulled my plug. And I felt like I was swimming in condensed milk , in mud. I couldn't do a radio program easily. I couldn't think, that would come natural.

And I thought I was just suffering from exhaustion. And I took a long break. That didn't change a thing. Started delegating a lot more. That didn't change a thing. After six months I literally, I heard, I was planning, I was supposed to get all the denominations together again. And as a business group, we were neutral so they were more willing to follow us than follow some other one denomination. So we started to plan for the year. What do I do for the year? I need to get these people together. I'm supposed to host things, but I had no grace. Zero. And I said, God, I don't know what to do.

And long story short, certain events and certain people he connected me with, he had me fly to Atlanta the next day to go meet with Johnny Inlow. I don't know if you ever heard of Johnny Inlow. But I met with Johnny and that little time, literally God spoke to me quite clearly that what I was striving to build and the avenue and the tool, the chamber of commerce, all of that, I had to walk away from.

So I'm like, wow. But I felt peace about it, even though it was what I was striving to build for so long. So I decided, yes, I'm going to resign from that and whatever. And then one of my employees came to me, one of my managers, my directors actually said to me, I'm going to be with you for six more months because I'm going to, I want to move. I want to immigrate to Canada. As he said the word immigrate, I can't tell you. I can't explain it, but it was like the lights came on and fireworks and the whole bit. I just like, wow. And from that, I felt God saying to me right then and there, I need you to move to Iowa.

And okay, it's one thing leaving my ministry, dropping out of being an elder in the church, dropping out all the marketplace ministry, all this stuff. But you talking about leaving my business, which is my livelihood, in the hands of others. So anyway, we felt, my wife and I felt pretty certain that was his plan. And the thing with me is if I hear God, if I feel in my heart, God says jump, I don't hear the P. So I was ready moving and he did the miraculous and in four months, I had immigrated. It takes two to three years to get your papers.

Jim: And I want to make it clear, it was an incredible story, but it's hilarious that God moved you to Eastern Iowa, which we know really well. We spent a ton of time in Eastern Iowa and it was funny because God does things. He always uses every circumstance in our lives to take us from who we are to who he can use more effectively. God took you from Trinidad and Tobago, shoved you in eastern iowa to shape your life and to write this book Disrupting Religion that has impacted my life so much over the last couple of years. Just answer this question really shortly and then we'll dig deep in it in our next segment, why is God Disrupting Religion?

Colin Ferreira: Because religion Is, I honestly believe the most evil spirit that exists . Is not the spirit of Nazism and humanism... it's just spirit of religion. Because that is the one that has infiltrated the church and has literally made us a sleeping giant and made us a subculture to a dominating secular culture. And it has literally taken our weapons away, our, who we are, our identity, and we have just gotten into activity and stuff. He's got to disrupt this because it has His people in a stronghold.

Jim: So speaking of disrupting things this time of year, there's lots of pretty special and fun disruptions to our normal routines. We just finished celebrating Thanksgiving and at iWork4Him, we're deeply into Giving Tuesday. That's right. As a nonprofit, this is an incredibly important time of year for us as we ask our listeners to make a year end gift and maybe even become a regular supporter of iWork44Him. You're not just giving money to our organization. You're helping other workplace believers to get a better understanding of their workplace mission field. Please go to iWork4Him. com forward slash donate and give purpose to work for others.

Martha: Colin, let's take some time to look at some of the things that God is disrupting in Christianity. I know that there's a list of them. That's why you wrote a book, right? But talk about our relationship with Jesus versus God. Why is that controversial?

Colin Ferreira: It is controversial because the church today basically Man, it's such a subtle plan of the enemy because it's an only Jesus faith. That's what Christianity really is in modern Christianity, is pretty much only Jesus. You would even hear songs that says only Jesus and that Jesus is everything and it sounds good. Who's going to deny that? Who's going to pull back?

But the thing about it is it totally denies the very purpose, that primary purpose of Jesus was sent - by the father. Jesus didn't come on his own accord. He was sent by someone who dearly loves his children, his people, and we don't fully understand that. So we get into this whole thing of just being good servants of the Lord, but not understanding sonship. Sonship is really what the whole of creation is eagerly waiting for, the Bible says, for the manifestation of the sons of God, not the good servants of the Lord.

That's not bad, but it does not, it's part of the equation. And if you have part of an equation, You cannot expect to get a good answer at the end, even if that part of the equation is completely right.

Jim: So really, let me just repeat what you're saying. And this is, I've been studying this for years and I had similar thoughts, but you just worded it really well in your book. Jesus came to seek and save the lost to restore that which was lost. And people need to ask what was lost and where was it lost? And it was Adam and Eve had a perfect relationship with their Heavenly Father, with our Heavenly Father in the Garden. And when sin came in, it destroyed that relationship. Jesus came to restore that relationship, so that we could be one on one with our Heavenly Father again, as sons, as adopted children, in a perfect relationship with our Heavenly Father, which is what we had in the Garden, which was lost.

Jesus is our brother. He's going to be the king. We're going to be the princes and princesses in the kingdom. We're not slaves. We're not servants. We're children. We're inheritors of the kingdom and yet the church has us totally focusing on a relationship with Jesus instead of what he came to do, which is restore their relationship with our Heavenly Father. How'd I do?

Colin Ferreira: You did, and the thing about it is how we view it is that yes, we are now able to become his sons. So now we have entered like a position, it's like me moving to the U. S., I became a citizen. I became a citizen of a kingdom. When it comes to the kingdom operation and all that, there is a Lord, there is a commander in chief, that's Jesus. There is a battle we face, but when it comes to your personal identity that drives how you do, that's what's missed.

God didn't send his son to give us citizenship. He sent his son to reconcile us to him in personal relationship. So, I come into the U S, I don't expect to meet the president. I don't expect to meet him, but I am a citizen, but that is not going to cut it. But what Jesus really planned to do - he sent him. And we look at John 3 16 and everybody focuses on salvation. So that we don't perish, he sent Jesus so that we will not perish. But if you want an expanded version of John 3, 16, you got to look at Galatians 4: 4 to 7, which says when the right time came, God sent his son. The motivating person is God. He is motivated out of his love for his people.

Sent his son , born of a woman, under the law, to redeem us, so that what? So that we can be saved from hell? No, that's a means to an end. The end is so that he can adopt us and that he can send His spirit and we can cry out, Abba Father, Daddy, and walk with him daily.

We don't walk with him. We walk with Jesus only. We walk with the way, who's supposed to help us get there and show us how he did it, but we are basically trying to copy his character, but not look at how he walked with his father in identity.

Jim: So I'm going to, I'm going to stop you there because I want people to get a copy of your book where this goes into so much detail and really helps clarify. This disrupting book, disruptingReligionBook. com, DisruptingReligionBook. com. You gotta get a copy, because I'm only letting Colin take two minutes to talk about this, but it's so key. We need to understand what Jesus was talking about when he said he came to restore that which was lost.

Martha: Let me share a little fun fact though, Jim. So this is the fun connection here with Colin and Jim. Colin asked Jim...

Jim: Go way back. Os Hillman, who impacted Colin's life, was the reason why this ministry and this podcast even exists, because of Os Hillman's devotions.

Martha: So we're connecting a bunch of dots here, but then long story short, Colin asked Jim to read the audio version of Disrupting Religion.

Jim: Read and record it.

Martha: Read and record it to be the audio version. A couple things. People can get the book. They can also get the audio version. You can hear the voice you're familiar with and with a lot of passion because, Colin, it was so fun to listen to Jim record because he would literally sometimes be laughing because he's Oh my word, this is like what I feel inside but Colin wrote the words on paper. So it's just great. So I just want to make all those connections for our listeners.

And that's why Jim is just, he loves what you've written, Colin, because it resonates so much, but one of the things I hear that you say that makes this so important is the fact that we are so easily distracted from the truth of what God is saying in all of scripture. And like you said, the songs say oh jesus is still the you know the only way and that sounds really good, but there's so much more to this story. And we need to break some of those things that we don't even realize we've adopted. And so I just love this conversation. And thank you for interjecting how people can get a copy of the book because there's no way -

Jim: Yeah, we're gonna get one more section talked about because we're almost out of time. We're gonna go for it anyway Disruptingreligionbook. com. Alright, Colin, people need to understand the church. The church as a cruise ship, the church as a battleship, and more importantly, the church as a pirate ship. Explain it as short and concise as you can, so we can get intrigued for them to dig deeper. The church as a cruise ship.

Colin Ferreira: Do you want to start with the battleship first?

Jim: Go ahead. Go ahead. It's your book.

Colin Ferreira: Actually, when you think about the church, we belong to a kingdom. The kingdom has a commander in chief. It has a lord. A king. It has a president. It has whatever. It's a sovereign nation. Battleships belong to sovereign nations. They belong to kingdoms. They're not private. They're not owned by the people. The church is supposed to be that kind of a mindset. And the church is there. The people on the battleship are not passengers. They're enlisted. They joined something and they recognize they have a Lord in charge of all of this and they are part of building this kingdom. And the ship is not the goal, the ship is a means to an end. The ship is there to project power beyond that kingdom, on behalf of the kingdom and into areas where the kingdom needs to control. But it's controlled by other enemies or other entities.

The battleship does that and it goes into any kind of waters in any kind of situation and it's prepared to project the power and authority of the kingdom it represents. The ship is not the goal. The ship is a means to an end. Really, when I say battleship, it's really aircraft carrier. The aircraft carrier is meant to get those pilots off with their weapons. They have been equipped on the ship, but it's not about the ship. It's getting you off the ship and extending that authority beyond the ship. And to take back and to take land, to take, you know what I'm saying?

So the cruise ship, when you don't understand your identity and you don't, you're not really walking in that piece that comes as a child you, you get into this servant mode and you start to work to build things. And then soon enough, the things you build is half yours now and half God's. And in many people's cases, it becomes 90 percent theirs. And we build these things, and the whole goal is the passengers and to keep the passengers on board and to keep them on your cruise line and to keep the water calm and don't ever go out in rough waters.

Nobody's ever intimidated by a cruise ship showing up in their area. There's no intimidation there whatsoever. People come off the ship for a little mission trip and get back on the ship. That's right. Then they're back on the ship. That's right. Quote Unquote, mission trip, but get back to the comfort of the ship. And the ship is always competing with other ships. They wouldn't admit it, but there's the competing and everybody's trying to keep the passengers on their cruise line.

So that's two ships that, and I'm not saying that's every church and that's fully what it is, but there's a lot of similarities we can identify with and what I just described . Now the pirate ship, the thing about it is pirates go after legitimate treasure. Pirates do not go after fool's gold. A pirate will only go after true treasure. So here we are, all of us going after true treasure, but in a lot of ways , we are going after it in illegitimate ways, so they go after legitimate treasure in illegitimate ways.

Now, when I say illegitimate, I'm not referring to criminal ways, breaking the law. I'm referring to if it is not by faith, which means you have to be guided by the Spirit of God, it is sin. The Bible says that . And so we create a lot of stuff that looks good, songs, we use a lot of the world's ways and we build things and it starts to grow and grow . And we have a lot of people involved and a lot of money spent.

But look at where our country has been heading, with all the ministry and all the stuff that's been spent. Do we really have the authority to put to flight 500? And the Bible says one can put to flight 500. Do we have that authority to do this? It's not been happening. And so we create the cruise ships and we don't understand identity. And we're all living as good servants. And we have no idea what His Sonship intended to do. And what it means to walk with dad daily.

He's not a distant father. We know what fatherhood should look like. Why should he be worse than us? You know what I'm saying? A distant father. If you love my eldest son, I'm good. That's not what he sent Jesus for. Jesus himself said there is coming a time when true worshipers will worship the father in spirit and in truth for the father himself teaches us to worship him.

Martha: I love this whole analogy to the ships and I think that it's gonna cause a lot of intrigue for our listeners because as you were saying those things, Colin, I was relating to how that makes sense on a cruise ship versus a battleship, which is actually an aircraft carrier and the pirate ship. And so speaking of pirate ships, it reminds me of a podcast that Jim does with some guys at SaferNet that's called Digital Desperados.

It's not a perfect analogy with where you were going, but the cyber criminals that he highlights are like pirates on a pirate ship. They take the things that don't belong to them when a company or individual's electronics are not protected. The stories that are shared on the podcast are amazing. And the software that can protect each one of us from the, these bad pirates is called SaferNet. They have 84 website filters, a VPN, internet controls, and virus protection to proactively keep the pirates out of our computers, cell phones, and other devices. Both at home and at the office. So learn more about Safer Net and also subscribe to the Digital Desperados podcast.

I'll put the link in the show notes and you can listen to the podcast or watch it on YouTube. And you can go to, I'll put all those links there for you for SaferNet.

Jim: All right, so Colin, because I wanna land on this on the podcast. There's just so many more things. I really would love to talk about your thoughts on prayers and so many different things. But this pirateship thing - christians going after legitimate treasure, but doing it in illegitimate ways, really with our own strength. What you're really saying, this is my interpretation, Jim's interpretation of Colin's words, is that so many Christians working in their own power, in their own strength, without need for faith, or without need of interaction or intervention from God, accomplishing things instead of accomplishing the greater things that God intended us to do, walking by faith. One example of that would be ten trillion dollars worth of buildings , that we call church buildings, in this country alone, that Jesus never asked us to build.

Colin Ferreira: Exactly.

Jim: Exactly. Think about that. Jesus said, go ye therefore, and build big buildings and create little kingdoms across the country. Oh no, he never said that, did he? No.

Colin Ferreira: Let me give you a little example. You will remember the time Jesus healed a whole bunch of people. Everyone that evening, they went home and obviously they brought back every relative and friend that was sick the next day. The disciples couldn't find Jesus. He was spending time with his father and that's another point. Jesus is not the father. The father is not Jesus. They're all the Godhead, but they are three different persons and they have different roles. So we can't just say, I'll just pick whichever one I want. It makes no difference. We need to understand the three roles.

So he's just talking with his father, which is what we supposed to learn from him. He gets direction. He comes back and he says, we've got to go to the next town. And the disciples are saying, are you kidding me? We have this huge crowd of people all eager and waiting and in need. And we have this thing that once there's a need, we need to stick around and make it happen. But we have to act on obedience, not need. Because there'll always be more needs than we can handle. And he says, I need to move on.

How many people in today, in ministry, would walk away in the middle of something going well, or see an opportunity, walk away and say I just know the time for this is up and God wants me to move on? Such people do not get the identity aspect. They don't understand sonship because God is not going to mislead his children and he is going to get the best out of you, but it may not look like the path we want. So we build and build and build, and then we start , we create what we have today and look at the result.

Jim: And once you start building these buildings, then you have to build a whole organization around it to support the building and instead of being flexible and the ability to just adjust left rudder, right rudder, like a battleship could do, instead you're stuck in port, the battleship never able to go anywhere.

All right. Tie all this together in a neat little bow for our believers that are listening today - maybe there's some unbelievers even listening today - to work. Because for the workplace believer that's listening today, they're going, wait a minute. This is some new stuff I've never heard of today. I got to get a copy of this book, disrupting book online at disrupting book, Disrupting Religion books. Excuse me. I need to get a copy of the book, Disrupting Religion online at Disrupting Religion book. com. But they're saying, Colin, how does this transform the way I look at my workplace like my mission field? Last word for you.

Colin Ferreira: Okay. Quickly. You can get the book on Amazon, does not have to be disrupted in book. com. Anyway, if you don't get this understanding of your sonship, that really brings that peace. Servanthood does not bring the level of peace that sonship does.

We are ready in the workplace. We know how to work. We work hard. And we will work hard for Jesus and miss it. What is in that book is the fundamental restructuring of a foundation that would shift what you do, how you do it, so that the purposes of God will be accomplished in your workplace and you can truly do ministry in the workplace and bring God into it.

People are not attracted to a workaholic that is burning out saying he is working for God because I don't want to serve a God that's going to kill me. Get my point? So it's crucial that we understand that identity that God intended. It's what he came for. Ultimately, he told the father, he said, he told us in John 17, he said two key things. He said, I have finished the work you gave me. He didn't die yet. He wasn't crucified yet. I finished the work you gave me. I have revealed your name.

And then the last verse, he says, I have revealed you and I will continue to do so the love I experienced with you in me, they will experience the same. John 17 is not about church unity. It's about the unity of God's spirit in us and sonship and him loving us the same way he loved Jesus. When we get that , it shifts everything.

Jim: I love the fact that you summarize it that the peace we get as a servant is nothing like the peace we get as a son. That's powerful, Colin. There's so much , we could talk for several hours, but we don't get to. But you can get the audiobook and listen to my voice for four and a half hours, or you can read the book at Disrupting Religion Book. com or on amazon, as he said, and get a copy and read it for yourself. So you can underline and highlight it, wrinkle the pages. Because my book is tattered already.

Colin Ferreira, thanks so much for being on iWork4Him today. Thanks for letting the Lord disrupt your life and send you to purgatory in eastern iowa so that you could write this book 20 years later. Thank you. Colin.

Colin Ferreira: Thank you for having me. This was fun.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host jim and martha brangenberg. We're christ followers. Our workplace It's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

11/27/24 - 2070: For Thanksgiving, With Thanksgiving

Jim: You've tuned in to iWork4Him the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: And we are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg.

Jim: It's the day before Thanksgiving and most of you will be listening to this on your way to grandmother's house. Over the hills and through the woods to grandmother's house we go. For those of you in the north and out in the Rockies, that trek may even include snow this time of year.

Thankfulness. As a workplace believer, a follower of Jesus, is thankfulness a requirement? Or is it an option? Is it an all the time behavior? Or just on Sunday morning? Any way you look at it, you need to consider what does it mean to be thankful and how much of your life should it be impacting. This show is focused on thankfulness and Thanksgiving with a little turkey and gravy and cranberry sauce thrown on top. Martha, what do you love most about Thanksgiving?

Martha: I think the thing that I love the most about Thanksgiving is how much it reminds me of Sunday afternoons as a kid. So our family always spent Sunday afternoons after church having a big meal at my grandmother's house.

And very much... I'm getting choked up. I don't know why. Good memories. And that's what Thanksgiving really feels like because everybody slows down, takes time to not be in a hurry, not having to go anywhere and just spend time together as a family.

Jim: And your Thanksgiving with your family were always a blast. And as we got married, the Thanksgiving family dinner was monstrous because there was so many people. But growing up as a kid My most fond memory of Thanksgiving was at my nana's house in new jersey. She had this big old victorian mansion from the 1800s and I had to sit at the kid table and usually with like chains and velcro on me so I wouldn't disturb everybody. Not really.

Martha: You couldn't sit through a meal?

Jim: No, but I remember as the meal, my grandmother had a huge table and incredible food and after the kids table, then she had these army men and it was my grandfather's army men. They were like metal army men and I got to play with the metal army men in the metal tanks, but

Martha: it was just to keep you occupied.

Jim: I was the youngest of all the cousins. I have a cousin that's 13 or 14 years older than me. So I was a little kid causing a lot of trouble all the time. But I just, those were fun times and traveling up to New Jersey from Maryland at the time was just, we're like going, we're going to go see family. And I like being family. Now we're a family with kids and relatives spread all across the country from sea to shining sea, from California to New Jersey.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: It's sad because we're not always together with family.

Martha: It's just, it's different. And I think a lot of our listeners can relate to that because growing up, our family nucleus stayed closer in proximity to each other. So cousins and aunts and uncles and everybody lived in nearby towns. So it was more accessible to be together.

Jim: You had family all around you.

Martha: In different phases of life. That kept changing and now it's, it is widespread. But those memories, it's amazing when we look back on them and we think of it with fondness, not realizing as a little kid that would be a big deal to us.

Jim: Yeah, I don't remember much of the food. I do remember Thanksgiving's at at your family because your mother's stuffing is amazing. Yeah. And the cranberry sauce relish, I know it's called sauce. And then your mom introduced me to this thing called rice pudding. Oh boy, that's the penultimate...!

Martha: And for anybody who's ever seen rice pudding at a grocery store in a container that looks like a cottage cheese container, you have not experienced rice pudding. My mom's rice pudding has a three to four inches of egg white meringue on the top, that's Golden brown and comes out of the oven.

Although Sarah, our youngest, told me just yesterday that she prefers rice pudding when it's cold... when it comes right out of the oven and it's a little bit warm still like that, just it's a comfort food. I'm telling you. Anyway, we can sit here and talk recipes, but it's not a recipe show, Jim.

Jim: No, it's not. And this year, unfortunately in Southwest Missouri , the sweet potato souffle is going to be literally a small little dish because the sweet potatoes because of lack of rain looked like miniature carrots.

Martha: They are pretty small. They are pretty small. We might have to subsidize this week. I'm not sure I'm gonna give my only sweet fresh sweet potatoes to the souffle because they can handle store bought sweet potatoes.

Jim: But praise God we got rain in Missouri here just shortly ago, just a couple of weeks ago for the very first time since May. And we're really grateful because we were tired of the dry and the fires and everything like that.

Martha, is there one Thanksgiving meal, as you were growing up with your grandparents, I know your grandparents in Michigan and in Illinois, and you grew up in Illinois, one that's like your favorite?

Martha: Honestly, the one that I think of isn't necessarily when I was growing up, but we were young marrieds and my mom and dad were just putting an addition on their home to put in their photo studio and everything and the room wasn't finished. Mom put out big folding tables and we made this big table and the kids, all the grandkids, drew on construction paper and drawing paper and put them up on the walls to decorate the room because it was sheet rocked, but it wasn't finished. And, just, it was this atmosphere of, we can all gather together.

The room doesn't need to be perfect. We're all in a room together and just celebrating. And that was the one where one of our nephews grabbed the stick of butter and ate the whole butter. I don't know if you remember that or not, but we decided he must have been short on some fatty foods in his life. (laughing)

Jim: He now has a really long beard. Wasn't it that nephew? (laughing) I'm

Martha: not sure which one it was, but it was fun. But anyway, just again, that recollection that we were spending time together, everybody was doing things. We weren't being served. We were all involved. The kids were coloring and working on projects. Mom always had projects for the kids to do.

Jim: And she was great and entertaining the kids.

Martha: And then I'm pretty sure there was football in the backyard.

Jim: Oh yes, there was always the Thanksgiving football game. Uncle Phil against Uncle Jim and the teams that we recruited. Absolutely. All right.

Martha: I don't think there were any concussions.

Jim: No, no broken bones ever happened at Thanksgiving time.

Martha: But I think a lot of people can relate though, that some years you'd be in winter coats with lots of padding because it would be freezing and other years you'd be in short sleeves. But there was always some outside activity.

Jim: Minnesota snow football was the best because when you get tackled all you go * poof* It's nice.

All right. So growing up in my house, thanksgiving meals didn't always have a lot of Thanksgiving. My dad always prayed over the meal and there'd be Thanksgiving in the prayer and then that was pretty much it. At your family, you know, your mom liked to create an atmosphere of Thanksgiving. Let's talk about that.

Martha: I think it was, it really boils down to intentionality and why were we all getting together? Number one, it's just great to be with family, but to truly focus on Thanksgiving means spending some time talking about it. And so that was a big part of the meal, and we often anticipated that it would be after everybody's tummies were full. We're sitting there. Nobody has cleared any plates. Everybody listening.

Jim: The tryptophan hasn't kicked in yet.

Martha: Everybody listening right now. Here is a tip as a hostess. Don't rush the process. When people are done eating, there is no reason that the mashed potatoes that are left over need to be cleared off at the table at that moment.

It's a big thing that Jim and I have learned over the years in our own marriage is that is when the best conversations happen. Nothing on your table is going to spoil and if it does, that's okay because they've already all filled their tummies. Sit there and spend some time in conversation. Mom would do things like she would have pieces of paper at the table that would maybe prompt a conversation about what you're thankful for, or we would go around the table and share highlights of things that we are thankful for from the past year or each other.

We did it a bunch of different ways over the years, but always forcing that conversation. And yes, sometimes it was like, Oh, it's time for it to be a little awkward.

Jim: And then the family pictures would come. Ladies and gentlemen, just so you know, Martha's dad was a professional photographer and her mom and dad worked together. And so you'd have, you'd always have to enhance the holiday by a family picture being taken.

Martha: A posed picture is what you're talking about.

Jim: Which sometimes wasn't my favorite part of the day.

Martha: No, but in hindsight, it's some of our greatest memories.

Jim: Still wasn't the favorite part of my day.

Martha: Some of our greatest memories are reminded by those pictures.

Jim: Yes, some of those greatest memories of the first Thanksgiving after Martha and I got married, or engaged.

Martha: Oh, that was a holiday.

Jim: Oh yes, it was the first Thanksgiving where my brother in law to be put a plate in front of my face on Thanksgiving.

Martha: Because we were officially dating but that was

Jim: Dating or were we engaged?

Martha: Maybe that was when we were engaged, but you were we still have you know, it still wasn't a legal binding yet so in the family picture Jim has a plate over his face, but we digress.

Jim: But that was funny for everybody else but me.

Martha: Yes. All right. All right. Thanksgiving dinner in my home was very intentional as we were just talking about, but it seems to me that it is one of the most impactful part of our lives. It comes out of being intentional, which is why at iWork4Him and in our home, we've been super intentional about what we support and where we spend our money. Our sponsors are all companies that conduct business based on biblical values. You can be intentional today and engage with these sponsors that make a difference and help provide this very program.

Jim: Let me list a few of these for you. SaferNet is our proactive cyber security program that keeps our home and office devices protected, our phones, our iPad, our computers, our laptops. Before you have issues, go online to safer net. com and download their program. It's reasonably priced and powerful.

Patriot mobile is a cell phone provider that is built on the pillars that align with you and I -faith family and freedom. Go to patriot mobile. com forward slash iWork4Him.

And ePaymints is a payment processor that works with integrity on behalf of their clients You can find all the links at iWork4Him dot com forward slash sponsors.

Martha: All right, Jim. So where does the attitude of thankfulness actually come from? Where do you think?

Jim: Love, Joy, peace, patience... I think it's a fruit of the spirit, but it's a summary conglomeration of them all. I think thankfulness really comes from the root of our faith because we're, it's gratefulness. I mean, we're taught to be thankful, but thankfulness really flows from the heart.

Martha: It comes to mind this song that you love that says that we don't get what we deserve.

Jim: (singing) We don't get what we deserve.

That's on the worldwide message tribe album from 1990.

Martha: Yes, that is really why we should be thankful, that what we deserve is death. And because of Jesus Christ, we have the gift of eternal life as a possibility for us when we accept Jesus as our Savior. And what better thing to be thankful for than that?

Jim: Yeah, you're going down with "we deserve death." This is a Thanksgiving show!

Martha: But we can be thankful because there is hope.

Jim: For the turkey that sacrifices its life for us.

And Jesus who sacrifices his life also for us.

Martha: What if you have ham?

Jim: Then the poor pig died for us. Or if you had prime rib, the poor cow died. But we're grateful to all of them for sacrificing their lives on behalf of our waistline. But more seriously thankfulness flows from the heart and it's from a heart of gratefulness because of the mercy that God extends to us. Some verses may come to mind - Psalm 107 verse 1: give thanks to the lord for he is good His faithful love endures forever.

I think there's a couple...

Martha: there's a lot of songs

Jim: a lot of songs like that.

Martha: It's a psalm. So it really was probably a song originally too, but

Jim: (singing) Give thanks with a grateful heart. Give thanks...

Martha: That's so good. You know another verse that I think of is first thessalonians 5: 18 and it says be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you who belong to Christ Jesus. And the verses right before that, which most of us have heard: always be joyful, never stop praying, be thankful in all circumstances.

So I have a plaque on our bedroom wall that says, pray always.

Jim: She had to think about it.

Martha: I did. (laughing)

Jim: Usually your eyes are closed when we're in our bedroom.

Martha: But I was thinking about this. I often lay there and I see that plaque on the wall.

Jim: When my snoring is keeping her awake.

Martha: Yeah. Then it's dark. I can't really see the plaque then, but just do we really realize what those verses say? And give thanks in all circumstances you know it there's a lot of circumstances where that is not our first inclination.

Jim: Have we answered the question though? Is it optional as a believer? I don't believe it is optional. No. Philippians 4: 6 says don't worry about anything, but in everything through prayer and petition with Thanksgiving present your request to God . Thanksgiving should flow from us because we have everything to be thankful for. We have been set free.

We have been rescued by God. We've been set free. We have everything to live for because we will never die. Our bodies will degrade and shut down, but our new body will kick in. Our relationship with our heavenly father kicked in the minute we surrendered our lives to Jesus. And he allowed us to have that relationship with our heavenly father because of the sacrifice he made on the cross And it's all worth it. I mean, it's just, it's incredible, but of course we should be thankful!

Martha: But is that in our nature? Like we need to be reminded. That's why if you actually look in your Bible in the, like where you can look up words and find out what verses have it, there are a lot of verses about being thankful because God has reminded us that we need that because in our flesh, in the middle of all circumstances, when we're worrying, when we're anxious, it says to bring those prayers to him with Thanksgiving. What about that, Jim? I want to land on this for a minute. How do we approach those hard things and bring it to the Lord with Thanksgiving?

Jim: I was going to quote a verse from first hesitations. (laughing) For crying out loud, be thankful! You got everything to be thankful for so shut up and put a smile on your face and be thankful to God.

Martha: And that's why that book was not canonized.

Jim: Oh, yeah, that's right. But I wake up every morning thanking God for you, Martha, and I sincerely do because I'm so grateful. And it's easy to be reminded first thing in the morning to be thankful. When the day kicks in, It's a little harder to be thankful because things distract us, but we need to be reminded all the time. So that's why it's good to have those be thankful plaques in every room you go to.

All right. So this attitude, should it impact our work? Yes, it should. Should it impact our home life? Absolutely. Should it impact our raising our kids? Yes. It's harder though, by the way, with our kids, not necessarily when they're cute little babies, but when they have dirty diapers. That's hard to be thankful for dirty diapers. And then when they're shifting into teenagehood. There's it's hard to be thankful when they're spreading their wings and the push back is a little intense. And it's hard when they're adults and they don't necessarily need you anymore. But we should still be thankful while we're raising, be grateful to have kids. David said we should have a quiver full. We only have three We missed the opportunity, Martha. It's a small quiver.

Martha: No, we didn't. No, we didn't. That is not a small quiver.

Jim: We should have 17. That's what a quiver is. I think a quiver holds 17. (laughing) But do you think, has Thanksgiving always impacted your attitude at work? Like right now? Are you thankful that you're on a podcast with your husband? Like it's show number two thousand and seventy by the way.

Martha: That's crazy.

Jim: It is crazy.

Martha: I am thankful that we've made it to show number two thousand and seventy.

Jim: Without any professional counseling as well and that's really important to note.

Martha: In fact you're gonna say one of the things we're thankful about.

Jim: We mentioned our sponsors early in the show today, and we also mentioned how much we love our children. Now is a perfect time to tell them all, thank you for believing in the message of iWork4Him. I want to thank you all for believing in the message of iWork4Him, for supporting us. Many of you support us on a monthly basis and helping other believers to unlock God's purpose for their work, to make that connection between the truth of scripture and the power of their work, to be an influencer and to be active in ministry on their mission field of their workplace.

Thank you to all of you who sponsor iWork4Him and who donate on a regular basis to iWork4Him. There's always room for more of you to donate to iWork4Him to help us complete the tapestry project and if you'd like to know more about it just pop me an email jim at iWork4Him. com. That's Jim at I work the number 4 him. com. I'll tell you about it. We'd love to have you join in sponsoring that really special project, taking it nationwide in 2025.

Martha: All right. So you wanted to talk briefly about how we're going to be spending Thanksgiving.

Jim: Is that your chair making all that noise? I

Martha: think it is. I'm sorry. I usually sit forward and I was doing a more relaxed pose today and it's squeaky.

Jim: So this year, Thanksgiving, we're going all in. We're grabbing my 90 and 91 year old parents, who have moved next door to us in southwest Missouri, and we're shoving them in a minivan with us and traveling all the way to minnesota. Now, it's only 650 miles, but mom and dad don't travel much anymore. But to fly would take 14 hours. We think the drive should only take 10. And so We're going all in but going up to the frozen tundra, which there may be some snow and I hope so. And We'll get to spend time, bring mom and dad back to minnesota for the first time in many years, seven or eight years and get a chance for them to see other of their grandchildren and children, all in this great holiday. We're looking forward to that. Okay, we're really looking forward to it once we get to Minnesota. The traveling, I don't know how many stops it's going to take between here and Minnesota.

Martha: That's okay. We'll take the prayers with Thanksgiving. For Thanksgiving, at Thanksgiving, with Thanksgiving.

I like that. But, you know

Jim: So we should write Thanksgiving on the rental van?

Martha: Oh, sure. Okay. I think like everybody

Jim: That's a good idea.

Martha: So much like many of you, you're probably going to be traveling, spending time with family. I think that this little walk down memory lane, one of the things that we hope to come out of it is that we realize that we have an opportunity all the time to think more intentionally about how we're spending the time together.

So try to make an impact. Try to make it be a time of encouragement for the others around your table and really just let them enjoy and make some new memories, because that's what we're going to be doing.

Jim: All right, as this is the beginning of Christmas shopping what do we have for sale, Martha?

Martha: You had this idea that we could have our books on sale for 5 each, plus shipping, for an indefinite amount of time between now and Christmas. I guess I should say that would be a definite amount of time, right? Between now and Christmas.

Jim: Which is, when you listen to this podcast, four weeks.

Martha: But we can't make that sale on Amazon. So that's a sale that you have to do directly with us on our website.

Jim: Because if we did that on Amazon, we'd be paying Amazon 10 bucks a book.

Martha: There you go. But we would love to share the resources with you. So if you are interested in buying some books and having them shipped either to you or directly to somebody, I'll even gift wrap them if they're going to someone directly.

Jim: Gift wrapping included in the 5 price - unprecedented.

Martha: Unbelievable. So just reach out to me, Martha at IWorkForHim. com.

Jim: What books are we talking about? Are we just talking about some random book we picked up at the thrift store?

Martha: Oh yeah. Anything I can find on the shelf.

Jim: Alright, how about iWork4Him, really about connecting your faith and your work. iRetire4Him, Finding purpose in your next phase of life and retirement. sheWorks4Him, an amazing gathering of stories of christian working women living out their faith at work and the things that they deal with. We've also got some other - Are we going to give away any other?

Martha: We can do any of the other ones, so we also have our, we contributed a chapter to a book that was published by the U. S. Christian Chamber, and you also published a chapter within the Pastoring World Changers. So If you are interested in knowing more about the books we have available, we could even make you a bundle.

Really, it's about blessing you to bless others because these are just messages that God's given us to share and we would love to be very generous right now.

Jim: It's amazing. I got an email from a guy who got a copy of our book from, I have no random idea where he got it from. He's Jim, I read your book. It was like, oh, and then I read it again. I'm like, oh my word. This changed my life. This changed my work life. I wish I could quote a word for word. I'll try.

Martha: What do you mean? He read it once and it was eh, and then he read it again?

Jim: When he went back through the second time it really impacted him. I have no idea, I don't know how he missed it the first time.

Martha: But here's the amazing thing. Obviously, God prompted him to read it again, right?

Jim: But it transformed the way he looked at work. And every time somebody, and the greatest part about our books is, yes, we did write it. And they're collaborative books, but Martha's dad wrote his stories of living out his faith in his work as part of iWork4Him and living out his faith in his retirement as part of iRetire4Him. you'll love hearing Ted's heart as part of all that. Now, Ted's gone on to be with the Lord full time, face to face, but his stories, Left Behind.

Martha: That's right.

Jim: But not the Left Behind series. I'm not giving you that up. I'm keeping my own.

Martha: The iWork4Him Series. That's right. Okay, so let's get down to the nitty gritty. Thursday is Thanksgiving. Friday is Black Friday. Saturday is Small Business Saturday, and then skip a few days to Tuesday, December 3rd, and it is Giving Tuesday. This is a day that's set aside to help support the nonprofits that you believe in and can gain value from. And it's a little backwards in how it's set up, because ultimately people might say I've spent all my money before you get to the donation day.

So if the messages that have been shared with you from iWork4Him, iRetire4Him, or sheWorks4Him have helped you to better connect your faith and your work or your retirement, would you consider giving it forward? This is an opportunity for you to help others understand that all of their life is to be integrated with their faith.

You can go to iWork4Him. com forward slash donate. That will be in the show notes. We would love for you to join our team and help pay it forward to so that others can hear this message as well.

Jim: You'll be impacting people around the world. So from Martha's heart and my heart to you, from our heart to you, happy Thanksgiving. We wish that we were there with you trying out all your favorite dishes, but we'll be with my family in Minnesota, hopefully doing some snowmobiling.

And if this episode has been helpful to you, be sure to subscribe and stay connected and share it with a friend. Hopefully it's made you giggle a couple of times.

You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers. Our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately iWork4Him.

11/20/24 - 2069: gROw into God's Plan

Jim: You've tuned in to iWork4Him, the voice of collaboration for the faith and work movement.

Martha: We are your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg, and our mission is to transform the workplace of every Christian into a mission field. What could that look like in your workplace? Let's find out right now.

Jim: How does a basketball playing young man from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, end up in Meridian, Idaho? It's a God story for sure. How does this story college basketball career end up leading him into a business tree of coaching teens about sports and character, bringing value and purpose to their lives? Gotta be God.

Ro Wiggins is a head coach and he's a mentor to many. His secret talent is living out his faith in his work within the public school system and in his community. Ro Wiggins may have started out in the bayous of Louisiana, but Idaho is his home today. Ro Wiggins, welcome to iWork4Him.

Ro Wiggins: Thank you for having me, so much. I really appreciate being here.

Jim: All right, so Ro, we always, we want to hear your story and we're going to capture your story today, but we always start up with how did you become a follower of Jesus?

Ro Wiggins: You know being raised in Louisiana is something extremely important to my culture down there but more importantly my mom. She was in the choir, never missed a Wednesday, never missed a Sunday. We were physically naturally there all the time. And it was only until I went through like my own like trials and tribulations in my life to where I became an actual follower. So I was in the building, as they would say, but as far as being spirit led, that didn't happen until like my teenage years.

So that's a big testament to my mom and her always wanting us to be in the word. So that's how I became a follower through my mom putting it in front of us and then us doing the information and the work ourselves.

Jim: Single mom, right?

Ro Wiggins: Yes, sir.

Jim: And would you have a grandma in your life too?

Ro Wiggins: Very much she was definitely the go to babysitter.

Jim: A praying grandma - nothing more, no more powerful force on the universe than a praying grandma.

Ro Wiggins: That is a fact, man. I'm super thankful for her as well.

Martha: I love that you clarified, because a lot of people may have grown up in the church but never really established a relationship with Jesus. So you mentioned briefly that it happened in your teen years. So from then on, have you always been serious about your faith?

Ro Wiggins: So I would say, just being full transparent. I've always been serious about it. I'm also understanding that all journeys and paths come with their hiccups and distractions and what have you.

I feel like anything that I've ever went through always drew me back to the source, just keeping like the main thing. I've never truly tried to go through any situation in my life alone without going to God. And if I did try it for maybe a week or two, it was not going to work. I would have always had to have gone back to the source. So I would say I became a follower at a young age. My faith grew stronger and my belief in Christ grew stronger as I matured.

Jim: And that's part of your story because God took you from, it was Baton Rouge, right? I had that right? I always love to say Baton Rouge.

Ro Wiggins: It's Shreveport but it's all the same.

Jim: yeah, but it's not near as much fun to say Shreveport is this to say Baton Rouge. (laughter) But God moved you from louisiana to idaho. What's that story? Tell us that story. Cause that's fun.

Ro Wiggins: Man. So it actually started with me going to school in Wyoming at first at a junior college at 21. I graduated high school at 17, but I stayed and worked at a call center. I'll never forget it, for four years, because my mom had recently divorced my stepdad. So it was her first time being a sole income earner and she had to get back on her feet, even at an older age. And I'm a mama's boy through and through. I'm always do what I can. So I gave up my basketball dreams to go into the call center and to just get a quick job. I'm a very communicative person. So that felt like something I was good to do.

Fast forward four years, 2018 from 2014. She said, Hey, we're back on our feet. You're good to move out or pursue or whatever. And I was like I'm only 21. I'm still fit to go with basketball. Busting my butt off. And then I actually got the connection to a college by going to a Wednesday night church group where we happened to play basketball as well.

That connection got me to look to a junior college called central Wyoming college in Riverton. And the rest is history with that. And Idaho just happened to be like a neighboring place that kind of gave me city vibes and Wyoming vibes. When I stumbled upon over here, it was already a booming place. It was already a lot going on.

But I took the most random jobs ever: security guard, Walgreens worker, but I knew that I had a good knack for working with people, not really more so kids in general yet, but I knew just, I was a people person. I knew the game of basketball and I just knew how to quickly earn people's like safe space if that means like, Hey, this guy is good to be around me type of energy. So Idaho became the home.

Martha: That's awesome. So, there's so much I would love to know in more detail, but we want to get to what God has you doing today. But in the midst of all of that college. Social life, all of that, you met your wife there and you have a family, right?

Ro Wiggins: Yeah. So just full transparency, yes. As I said in my earlier years, I had a lot of figuring out to do, just living the fast life, so to speak, and not making the right decisions and having to be held accountable for those decisions. So I have six children. I love all my children. They're all well taken care of, but when I think about the journey as to how I got to this point, where I am today, it's certain things just have to happen.

And I will, first of all say, my mom raised me the best that she could to be a gentleman, to be respectful. But I will say, outside of my spiritual father, not having a dad around to guide me, to mold me, to tell me the ins and outs of life and the decisions to make, I would say I had that chip on my shoulder, I just really would have appreciate that guidance. With that being said, even from moving from Louisiana to Wyoming to Idaho, I had already had four children at the time.

So I have two daughters with my wife and four children previous of her. Meeting her, I truly believe is a complete act of God. First I had to get over the fact of I'm not deserving of a person like this. And when I say person like this, just faith driven, pure, kind. When I say baggage, I'm not calling my kids baggage, but I'm saying got her whole life ahead of her, no children, none of those things. And JC at the time, who was my going to be my girlfriend, she didn't know these things about me.

So once I started fully focusing on my program and serving these kids, that's how I met who was her aunt. At the time I was training her kids. They got a gym at their house. And three, four weeks go by and she's just my kids love you. They love you. And I don't want to pry. I just don't see a ring on your finger. And I'm just curious because I got this niece and you two would be so perfect. I'm just like, okay, I'm way past the hookup phase and all of those things, but yeah, we can go grab lunch or something.

We ended up going to get just some ice cream because it was COVID time, 2020. And God just has a funny way of doing things that he wants to do. Cause I kid you not, for the first time in my life, and I'm talking about 20 something plus years, there was a four month span where I wasn't talking to a single female, not even as a friend, not flirting, not dating, fully focused on serving these kids.

I run across this family and then that's how I got connected with JC and we started talking about faith and future and just all the things. And it was only up until I got a fifth date, that's when I felt it in my heart. I was like, I can see myself spending the rest of my life with this woman. Now, just imagine the weight that I felt because she was on the pre dating honeymoon high and I was as well, but she was not aware of what's about to come with me. Because when it come to my children, as any person, I hold them very near and dear to my heart. If you're just going to be some like rotating door person, I won't even let you know they exist. You don't deserve that information.

I was like, you know what? I feel like this is the one. And if she is, she'll be more than okay with this. She will accept me as I am. And I just remember saying the longest run on sentence ever. So I just feel like it's the perfect time for me to let you know that I got four kids I already had before I met you. It was a very crazy thing, just hooking up with people and this, that, and the other. They're well taken care of. I'm not on no child support, nothing like that. I got great relationship with the moms and no baby mama drama, nothing like that. And she was just like, breathe, show me pictures. Oh my gosh.

And when she was like, Oh my gosh, they're adorable. I was just like, Oh, I got more. That woman in that situation, because full transparency, again, I've always been the person to withhold information that would ruin my chances of showing people who I was when they met me. I like almost forced people to meet me where I'm at versus I don't want to give you no ideas for you to paint this picture of something that I'm not and don't give me a chance to show you who I am. So that ended up happening. I proposed. She said, yes, we had two kids after that.

And I will say, for anybody that's watching, any young kid that's watching, it's just a beautiful feeling to do it the right way. Now, obviously my story is completely different. But it did feel phenomenal seeing my first daughter being born with my wife and my second daughter being born with my wife. It just felt so spirit filled, like as far as on the inside of me. Very much so I was happy to be a father to all of my sons, cause I have four boys and two daughters, but doing it the right way, man, it's just, it's nothing better and that's what I'll teach my kids.

Jim: And that's just one of those tools, the Bible really tells you how to get that done to do it the right way. And, there's so many tools in our lives that can make things easier and keep us from crisis. And one of those tools can be found through SaferNet. Their VPN, internet controls and virus protection, all in one app for ease of use and highest level of protection you could hope for all of your computer based devices. And you can keep distractions at bay with 84 website filters to stay safe and productive at work and at home. We use it on all of our devices, safernet. com, that's safernet. com.

Martha: So Ro, one of the things I love in your story is you keep alluding to like these kids that you're working with. And so we want to dig into that a little bit because God obviously has equipped you for where you're at right now, through circumstances, you probably never saw them as stepping stones, but I can already hear that in your story as we're laying it out. But you went from being a basketball player to being a coach, and then you have now Grow with Ro. How did all of that happen and get started?

Ro Wiggins: Starting off with my little brother, he wanted to play football and I started training him because we couldn't afford football training like back in 2015, 16. But long story short, he ended up becoming a valedictorian, state champion. He's currently at UT Martin right now, a civil engineer major. And looking back on it, I used to always just wonder. Was it a very good, just me being a good big brother role model, or do I have a gift of working with people?

So fast forward to my college days in Wyoming, in Riverton, Wyoming, there's an Indian reservation called the Wind River Indian Reservation. It was actually my first time encountering Native Americans, period. And just being completely honest, what I was taught about the Native American community growing up in inner city, Louisiana - pilgrims, Indians, Thanksgiving, the whole nine, the dressed up, all this stuff.

I moved there. I'm completely enlightened on another side, another story that turns out to be the actual truth. And it gravitated me to them. I see my little inner city kid self, single parent home, gang violence, drug related things going on in families. I seen that in these kids and they all had basketballs in their hands. So I just use basketball as a bridge, which I'm very much good at teaching that game, but it's also mentorship. Motivating these kids, speaking light into their lives. So I started on that Indian reservation, went to one in Montana.

Fast forward, now I'm not only working with Native Americans, but all races and ethnicities. And I've worked with probably 40 plus tribes in 32 states, just since 2017. Tens of thousands of kids, some of which I annually receive graduation invites to, when I even haven't seen them in freaking four and five years. And just to get this out there, there was a young lady had to be about three months ago, she messaged me and was just like, Hey, I don't know if you remember me, but I came to so and so camp and I'm not going to lie, I was a little knucklehead and walked out of your camp. But I just wanted you to know, at the time, I appreciated your patience. I'm working a job now. I'm getting ready to go to cosmetology school.

And I just want you to know, you helped me in more ways than you can imagine. I couldn't see it at the time, but looking back on it, I just want to thank you. And I'm just like, that's going to be better than any player getting drafted to some NBA or WNBA because it's just the marinating effect, like sometimes things gotta sit with people for it to truly like resonate over time. It's just those people were in my corner. So yeah, that's how gROw became a thing. And I'm just serving my purpose with these kids.

Martha: I love that. You know what? I just want to speak to our listeners right now, because Jim and I were just having this same discussion last night. And so I want our listeners to hear, because, all of us have had people that have walked life with us, that have impacted us, and have we ever taken the time to do what that girl did and reach out and say thank you? And to really show how important that person's role was in your life and appreciating them. Doesn't mean they have to send you a fruit basket. Just a note.

Jim: Fruitcake at Christmas is a good idea. (laughter)

Martha: Jim's up for any kind of food gift.

Jim: Fruitcake, P. O. Box 518, Marionville, Missouri, 65705.

Martha: You're terrible. (laughing)

Jim: All right, sorry.

Martha: But I think that this is an area where we all fall short. We have had people speak into our lives that have challenged us. We may not have appreciated it, like that girl, but you said it marinated with her and she saw that was a pivotal moment. So everybody, as we approach Thanksgiving and this time where we're thinking more about being thankful, let's do that. Let's make an act of reaching out to at least one person who made a difference in your life and spoke into you and that you maybe have never taken the time to really show appreciation.

It goes a long way, Ro, because you could have had three months of frustration in your work, but you get one note like that and you're like, let's go. I got this. You just gotta keep reading it. Put it up on your mirror or whatever. I just think that's so important.

Jim: I think it was a great point, Martha. Ro, it's important to, these are not, you're not dealing with Christian kids. This is not in a church environment. You're bringing your faith wherever these kids are at, right?

Ro Wiggins: I am. That is true. And I will say that one of my mentors has told me, I remember having Bible study with him and he was just like, Ro, I'm not sure if you realize it, the impact you having on these kids. Yeah, you're not throwing scriptures at them, this is your ministry, correct? That is your audience. It's you and 40, 50, sometimes 60 plus kids. That is your ministry and the words you decide to say and the lessons you decide to pour into them, it's pivotal. And this is why I pray every time before I even start a camp, anytime before I even lace my shoes up, the same way you pray for us in the intro.

Lord, Father God, please use my hands, my body, my tongue, my eyes to see, to hear these kids, to speak life into them. Use me in whatever way you will, whether it be through basketball or through the messages in between the drills. And some great moment always comes out of some camp.

Jim: How often do you get a chance - in your Grow with Ro program, we'll have your website plugged in the notes on the show, but how often do you actually get to feed truth, the truth, Jesus truth, into these kids? Cause you're having lots of interaction with them. You're doing drills and you're hearing, you're seeing patterns in these kids. And I'm sure some of these kids are coming from broken homes where they're struggling. How often do you get a chance to be real with them and share who Jesus is in you?

Ro Wiggins: So I will say intentionality is usually probably about 25 percent of the time based on the community. For example I was just in Beach, North Dakota, and it was some kids I had basketball camp with there, and I was just passing through, headed to fly out of Bismark, which there's two hour difference, but I was just passing through, stopped in to see if they were having practice or something. They actually turned out to be going to Bible study. So it depends on like the place because see, I literally spoke at the Bible study and we talked about the word of God.

Now with that being said, these programs that bring me in, whether it be for diabetes prevention or drug awareness or those things, I usually cover the scope of what those grant funds are for. And if something is within me, though, I've never withheld it. Now I will say this, because God is my witness, I don't say the words, I don't say the names from the Bibles. I don't say the scripture verses, but I do send the message. I do send the message. And I will say at times it's been a struggle for me because I would never say that I've been fake ever, but it's just okay, I'm giving them that knowledge, but what if this is just like a treat, like a tease, like what have they crave more?

What's that fine line between Hey man, don't be bringing that Jesus stuff over here. Or, you know what I'm saying? But I'm also staying true to me. If I feel a message or I feel a word, I cater it, I adapt to who's in front of me. I get the message out. As far as honoring your parents, honoring authority figures, I do my best.

Jim: So but you've got social media where your personal social media can espouse all that stuff. And so you can be real on your social media. So if they're following you, you can get all of 'em as friends.

Ro Wiggins: My personal, I do. Yeah. My personal, I do from stories and posts and all my personal I do, and a lot of these kids do. They look, thousands a day. If I post it, they're looking now. Some interact or most times it's I needed this. Dang, coach. Never thought about it that way. Dang, I really needed to see this. Thank you so much. Now, after they say that, I don't respond back and be like, and here's also a link, iWork4Him, where you can find more information about, you know what I'm saying?

 (laughter)

Jim: I'm trying to figure out why you wouldn't do that. (laughter)

Now, this interview just came to a completion. Thanks for listening to iWork4Him. (laughter)

Martha: I love what you said, though, because you're making, teasing an appetite, but in a healthy way, and you're giving them truth. And we really love at iWork4Him to feed truth into people.

And a great way to do that is through vetting companies that we find out what they really truly stand for and how we can best utilize what God has called them to do. You can find a complete list of our sponsors at iWork4Him. com. forward slash sponsors, but one that I want to highlight today that we have vetted is Patriot Mobile, a cell phone company that takes truth seriously.

Their values align with iWork4Him and what can be better than trusting them with your communication connections? So go to patriotmobile. com forward slash iWork4Him today to learn more and make the switch. It's really easy and you won't be sorry.

Jim: All right. So Ro, as we finish up today, you're also coaching. I think I've read a news article. Is it a private school or is it a public school, but you just got hired as what is it?

Ro Wiggins: It's a public school. It's called Middleton high school in Middleton, Idaho, about 10 minutes away from where I live out here in Meridian. Marianne Blackwell is actually the head coach. I'm not gonna lie. I consider myself like a co head, but I'm labeled an assistant, but I'm thankful that she definitely pries my brain for all and any and every information. We're a really good left hand duo, the best left hand duo. We got a lot of kids there, a lot of girls that work hard. We're in our second year. And we're expecting to have a great one.

Jim: But what about game time basketball? I found this thing that you're fifth grade girls basketball head coach for the 24, 25 season. I found that on the internet. Your name's all over the internet. You're like famous coach.

Ro Wiggins: Yeah, that's actually a Nike program with travel basketball club located here in the Valley, which is usually on ice for me during the winter months, because I'm solely focused on school basketball. So that's more spring and summer, but yes, GTS. Game time basketball is definitely a very up and coming thriving girls basketball program. Got very dedicated trainers, coaches and players over there as well. Just really good student athletes. People looking to learn.

Martha: I'm hearing you say something several times that I really see as part of what makes you so successful working with the kids. And that's that you say, I'm not going to lie, I'm transparent. I'm going to tell you this truth, whatever. Kids value that so much because they just want you to lay it out there. Actually, we all value it. I just don't think that we respect the kids enough to give them the truth all the time. And so I love seeing that in your personality. And that is probably why these kids, just one of the many reasons that they flock and they actually listen to what you have to say, because you're speaking out to them in a way that they need.

But I'm curious, is it harder to coach the kids or to handle the parents?

Ro Wiggins: Oh man. So I would definitely say ... I have to say it's harder to coach the kids, which in which there's no difficulty there as far as comparing the two. I got to choose the kids. And here's why: the parents are going to be who the parents are. I definitely can't change a parent in a sense of I'm with the kids hours on end of the day. I see them over and over. It's a personable space. I can put myself in numerous positions to gain their trust or lose their trust. Speaking of the kids versus the parents, they'll more than likely be stuck in their way of thinking and of parenting.

For example, if some parent messaged me, which it happens rarely, but it does happen. Hey, my son said that, he got in the car crying, said that you set him out of the camp. I'm so vulnerable and open with these people. Actually, I didn't set him out the camp. He was deciding to make a decision that would only benefit him and hurt the team. Said, when you decide you want to come back and be a team player, you can rejoin us. I'm opening a line of communication. Would you like to come back? He chose the choice to not communicate with me. He chose to sit over there on the side.

And I think it hits parents in a sense of your kid, if they shut down, if they do communicate, if they talk back, all these things, but I make sure that I follow it up with a positive such as, but your son has also attended my camp four to five times in the past and I've never had an issue with them, but in that same breath, this was the only time and the first time I had to hold them accountable. So he will remember my patience doing that. Now, whether he was too embarrassed or not to join back, he will know he didn't curse me out. He didn't yell. He said, I can come back when I was ready. That's how you actually say that's marinating a safe space. It didn't happen in that moment, but when I return, I bet he'll be the first one in the gym.

Martha: Yep. That's so good. You know what? Okay. I'm going to speak to listeners one more time because it's the parents that are listening right now.

So we need to establish relationship with those that are leading our kids and give them the benefit of the doubt. Because why would you do this if you weren't in it for the good of the kids, right? This is not, it's hard work doing what you're doing and being so intentional. So I just, adults, we do need to give those other teachers, leaders, coach, the benefit of the doubt, be their support and their encouragement because you can speak truth into the kids that sometimes parents don't get that opportunity to do because they're not listening as well. So there you go. There's my encouragement to all the listeners today.

I love your intentionality with every different child that you are touching right now because it sounds like there's a gamut of them and you have so many different focuses. But I'm grateful that God has you right where he has you.

Jim: All right. So as we close out today's interview, Ro, what's one thing that you've always wanted to say to a national audience who we're all trying to figure out How do I live out my faith in my work? What's one thing you'd love to say to them today?

Ro Wiggins: Real. His love is real. His power is real. It's no different than somebody pulling out some tool and not wanting to read the instructions. In this case being how to live your life and thinking you can just go about it and figure it out as you go.

The scripture is the directions and it will order the steps that you need to take. I will always unapologetically claim my faith in the public eye because there is no other person, no other being, no other entity that could put me where I'm at today based on where I was, and looking back on my life for all the times that I've had a chip on my shoulder for not having this person around or not having these resources to do that, he never left me. Never.

So I will just say, God is real. Pursue him, allow him to pursue you and trust in him completely, truly. That's what I want to say. Find him, keep him, because that's one thing I know for sure. We can lose sight of him, get distracted, go our own way. He never takes his sights off of us. And you cannot say that about any physical person on this earth. Omnipresent and always thinking of you and your best intentions. It's just, God is real, that's all I gotta say, and I'm thankful for the life that he's given me and the platform he's given me.

Martha: Awesome.

Jim: Ro Wiggins from Meridian, Ohio - Idaho, oh, Iowa, maybe Iowa.

Ro Wiggins: Gonna lose that fruitcake.

Jim: There goes my fruitcake opportunity. Ro Wiggins from Meridian, Idaho. Thanks for being on iWork4Him today. Make sure you check out Ro online, Facebook, Grow Sports Training. Check him out. You'll not regret it. Ro, thank you very much.

Ro Wiggins: Thank you for having me. Thank you all for your time.

Martha: If this episode has been helpful to you, be sure to subscribe to stay informed and share it with a friend.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your host, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, our workplace, it's our mission field, but ultimately, iWork4Him.