9/16/26 - 2164: The People Behind the People

Jim: This is iWork4 Him.

Martha: Where faith meets work and believers unleash their calling.

Jim: It was the original Wizard of Oz movie where Oz said, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." Larry and Richard Ross have spent their lifetimes behind the curtain lifting up the names and creative works of headliners all over the world.

Jim: Larry Ross co-founded A. Larry Ross & Associates in 1994 with a focus on offering crossover media relations at the intersection of faith, entertainment, and culture. In the role, Larry Ross has served many who are household names: Billy Graham, Joe DiMaggio, Rick Warren, T.D. Jakes, and many more. Larry's role has always been to lift up the names of his clients so they can use their platforms for God's glory, and in DiMaggio's case I'm pretty sure it was about a good cup of coffee.

Jim: Richard Ross has grown up in the business but spent many years perfecting his own brand of media relations before joining Larry at &Associates this year as his dad Larry transitions his leadership role to him. Together, this duo is committed to shaping ideas that move culture, challenge convention, and hold up over time.

Jim: Larry and Richard join us today to share the story of living behind the scenes and influencing culture as they lead &Associates, and share how transitioning from father to son is working out. We'll get behind the scenes look. Larry and Richard Ross welcome to iWork4Him.

Larry Ross: Thank you Jim and Martha, it's good to be here.

Richard Ross: Thanks so much.

Jim: For first-time guests on this show and it feels like we've known you guys because we've been working with your agency for years, referring people to us to interview, but we haven't heard your stories. First-time guest on the show always get an opportunity to share where Jesus impacted your life. Larry start us off, where did Jesus impact your life?

Larry Ross: Jim, I was blessed to grow up in a Christian home. My father was a Bible scholar and New Testament professor at the seminary level. But he really knew more about the Bible than anybody I've ever met, but he was in his head. It never seemed to get to his heart, and so I was raised that the gospel is a doctrine to be memorized, a debate to be won.

Larry Ross: I am the poster child for evangelicalism. The house I was raised in, my boyhood home had to be razed in order to build the Billy Graham Center on the campus of Wheaton College, an alma mater that he and I share. I was his personal media spokesperson for 34 years, at the time traveling in global evangelism with Billy Graham for 27 years, and then I met Jesus.

Larry Ross: I thought I knew Jesus. I gave my heart to him as a little boy, recommitted in high school, but I didn't really have a personal relationship with Him in a way that was enabling me to do ministry, personal ministry, with anybody. I was writing press releases read by tens of millions of people, but I was doing Jesus. I was a professional Christian, if you will.

Larry Ross: The gospel was a marketing concept and I met a friend in DC who helped me understand that the gospel is a person. It's Jesus. Jesus is the gospel. It rocked my world, and ever since, Jesus has been doing me, and it's made a huge difference in my life.

Martha: Wow, that's really amazing.

Jim: Love that.

Martha: Thank you for your transparency because that had to be a really hard thing to come to grips with for all the time. So Richard, how about you? Tell us your Jesus story.

Richard Ross: Yeah, I came out of this great man and born into that evangelical landscape, so it was just always around and it was always presented rather similarly across the board. And there just was a, abundant familiarity with it.

Richard Ross: I think that I had a strong relationship as a young boy with Jesus. And then I think that there are certain aspects of my experience with mainstream Christianity that just got disillusioned over time. And then I - it just sorta fell off in my life. Basically, entirely for a few years. And then I would say it, it came back. Honestly, I was at a Kanye West concert in 2022, and the Sunday service choir was singing "Jesus is King" to the tune of " O Fortuna" from Carmina Burana.

Richard Ross: And the presence of the Lord was so big .I'd never been around anything that large before. And I felt like I was just next to a mere fraction of the size of God. And I'd never experienced that, and that did a number on my heart for the years to come. And then I ... Yeah, I was in the, I used to work for a company called Mizzen+Main. They're a Dallas-based menswear company. I was creative director there for a long time. Then they decided to make a change, so I got let go from my job. I was there for about eight years. And I... right after I got let go, I was trying to find another job.

Richard Ross: I was being real diligent to try to get it. I spent about a month doing it, and I heard God say, " Richard, you asked me for more time with Me. I've given it to you. Why don't you spend it with Me?" And I heard Him loud and clear, and I just stopped. And I kinda took a sabbatical for a few months and just spent the entire time with God reading His Word and praying.

Richard Ross: And at the end of it, I got a new heart. And then there was another venture I was a part of, but I feel like all of it was in preparation to be able... going into the family business was not in the, the bingo card for me until it suddenly was. And I don't think I had the heart that was required for the mantle that has been put on my father in this business and its station in the Kingdom of God.

Richard Ross: But I just - You know I love Jesus. The more you understand the incredible thing that has been done is just ... Is, it's, it never- ... it's unending to- ... to come into remembrance, coming to new realizations. It is consistently humbling. And so yeah that's a bit of my story there.

Martha: That's so good. And I know we'll get into this more in just a little bit when we talk about this transition, but Larry, I can only imagine that as you've seen things change in Richard, God has just given you confirmation after confirmation with that. So I wanna start with when you launched your agency back in 1994, Larry, why did it need to exist? Why a Larry Ross & Associates?

Larry Ross: Like Richard I came out of a career in secular corporate and agency public relations. First with General Motors Corporation. You mentioned Joe DiMaggio. Jim, he was spokesperson for the Bowery Savings Bank, my main account when I was working at a big agency in New York City. Great experience but I wasn't... didn't feel like I was doing anything for anybody.

Larry Ross: And had the opportunity to provide a public relations component to the agency of record for Billy Graham, Walter Bennett Communications, that did his advertising and television production. And so I moved to Philly and then to Dallas, and after about two years they wanted to take me off and start going into secular business again.

Larry Ross: And I just didn't feel released from Billy Graham. I saw a great ministry as well as business opportunity to continue working at the threshold of faith and culture providing crossover communications out of the church into the mainstream and vice versa. And I was never called to preach, but I believe that what we do is every bit as much ministry in lifting up the arms of the men and women of God, and also people who are not only serving God but the common good.

Larry Ross: For example, 10 years ago I served as communications director for Dr. Ben Carson. I realize he's not a politician, he's a citizen statesman on a mission for God and the common good. And so messaging him was no different than Billy Graham or Rick Warren or some of these other that we represented.

Larry Ross: But our job, like Aaron in Hur when Moses was standing on a cliff as the children of Israel, the Israeli army, the Israelites army was fighting the, I think it was the Amalekites. As long as he had his arm lifted up they were winning. When they dropped they would lose. And so we're called to hold up the arms of the men and women of God and extend their influence and the impact of the organizations they lead to and through the media, and more recently now with digital as well.

Jim: Larry, you've hung out with guys like Billy Graham, Rick Warren, you just mentioned Ben Carson. We've gotten to meet Ben Carson, what a great humble man. Incredible story too. Wow, incredible story. What's one timeless lesson you learned from these greats? 'Cause you get to walk alongside of them. What's one timeless lesson you pulled away?

Larry Ross: Each one is different obviously in how they're wired and all, but I would say the common denominator is they're faithful to their calling. Take Billy Graham and Rick Warren. Billy Graham has a timeless message. Rick Warren, I would say, has a timely message. Same timeless message, but he puts it in a cultural context. And Mel Gibson, we worked very closely with Mel on The Passion of the Christ, and he felt called by God to make that movie, and he was faithful to what God called him to do. He didn't deviate from that, and I think that's one of the, the biggest common denominators.

Larry Ross: The other is authenticity. In fact people have asked me if I could describe Billy Graham in one word; I have to use four. In humility, integrity, authenticity, and love. He was an ambassador of God's love in his generation.

Jim: Love it.

Martha: So good to hear that. So Richard, you said already a little bit that the family business was not really on your radar, so when did you realize that this was maybe where God was calling you to?

Richard Ross: It was last year when I was in a venture, my wife and I along with some family friends started up a water company called Holy Water which is basically the opposite end of Liquid Death, like Tall Boy canned water, all of it's prayed over .And we were doing that and then last year a longtime secretary of the organization had passed away and I attended the funeral. Afterwards my parents asked me... it just hit different.

Richard Ross: So we started talking. You know, I've been asked before but it was very quick "No I am not interested." In September of last year I felt very strong call - me and my wife both, separately, we abruptly left that venture, started figuring out how to get involved so it really was a call to jump in and have these conversations. God has continued to carry it through since then.

Jim: So Richard what...

Larry Ross: if I could just...

Jim: okay go ahead.

Larry Ross: Oh I was Just going say I wanna get back to why your podcast Exists - iWork4Him And I know that you're All about Faith at work, God at work. Been Involved With I Am Second, working with the God at Work Magazine, Back in the Day When That was a Thing.

Larry Ross: Faith in the workplace has been a big part of my career. I think for me it stems back to my Dad, Mentioned he was a Bible scholar and He would have Sermon I Heard him Preach Several Times As kid on the Great Commission - Go into the World and Preach the Gospel. I always thought as a kid "oh no that means if I'm not called to be a missionary, I'm off the hook."

Jim: Exactly!

Larry Ross: That's not true because my dad would go back to the original language, and if you know that the Verb tense - Pluperfect Subjunctive or Whatever it is, is "while Going" Everybody's going somewhere. You guys are going to the podcast or radio studio. If you're a doctor or a lawyer, you're going to reach a whole different group of people who might never go to church. And so all of us, while going, we take the Gospel with us and lift up the name of Jesus. My Mantra my whole career has been Suit Up, Show Up, and after meeting Jesus as I described a few Minutes Ago, I Added a Third - Lift Up the Name of Jesus, Let God do the rest. Pressure off.

Larry Ross: And, Jim, before we started this broadcast, you were talking about Plano which is next door to us and how people of the Muslim faith are now moving in. I was raised "my religion can beat up your religion." I can't tell you how many cab drivers I've witnessed to on the way to the airport and, Jim, if you said to Martha, "Hey honey we're gonna talk about this topic but before we start everything that you believe about that topic, you're wrong and I'm going to show you why," you'd probably be sleeping on the couch.

Larry Ross: It wouldn't work, but that's the way often approach people of other faiths. I had a Jewish rabbi friend of mine who told me once that the difference between the three Abrahamic faiths; Jews observe faith of Jesus he was a Jew a Rabbi ,a teacher. Muslims practice faith with Jesus see him as prophet. And of course we as followers of Jesus put our faith in Jesus. So its the faith of,with,and in Jesus, but He is common denominator not differentiator - the way world would want us believe.

Larry Ross: Of course each group sees Him differently but It's common ground with-which to start conversation rather than argument about religion so now l can't tell you how many cab drivers of other faiths I have witnessed too on my way to the airport. Now I just get in car and I say "Oh am follower of Jesus,""Your Muslim""Uh He's both in our books let's talk about Jesus."And they you cant them to shut up. The talk about Jesus all the way to the airport. Fascinating conversation.

Jim: I love that and that's so beautiful because of where you guys are at and where this country is at. There so many people that are seeking and we just need to introduce them to who they're seeking.

Larry Ross: But you know - If could just say, part of job is you know Jesus didn't say "make converts." He said " make disciples." Everyone you meet has an experience or understanding of Jesus. Some may seem Him as a man, a Teacher, a Prophet, Son of God. Our job is push them closer on that continuum to where they find Jesus and make personal commitment to Him. And so someone shared with me once that Jesus emphasized relational integrity over intellectual accuracy. Doctrine's important. We need to emphasize it, but Jesus was all about relationship and expressing love to everyone He met.

Jim: That is true and so well put. Love that. Let's take the conversation to today - The & Associates, Richard, that you are now leading. Tell us who you guys love serve.

Richard Ross: You know, as was coming into the business and my background is brand and marketing, and whenever I work with a brand wanna able to really understand the core of how it was founded and why it was founded and what was established. And it was a really great process doing that with my parents as I was stepping into this brand and this organization.

Richard Ross: 'Cause we originally were starting in the context of a rebrand and in the midst of that process of hearing the, the call that was put on my father and my mother and how they really stepped out in faith, it really was, it became apparent how this was just an end- and If you look at the career my dad has had you know, he told you where he came from, it is just the hand of God that's been on this whole thing.

Richard Ross: And I really do think that there was an anointing put on my father and a mantle put upon and a unique position in the Kingdom of God because we speak to one of the-- when you look at the word prophet, I did a, a word study on it. I believe it's "nabu" in the Hebrew, and one way that it could be understood is spokesperson. And a lot of times we, ... it's interesting that my dad is a spokesperson. He was Billy Graham's spokesperson. But oftentimes I think part of the role is being a spokesperson for God to some of these leaders in Christendom as they go and be the spokesperson for God in other areas.

Richard Ross: So it's a really unique point in the Kingdom of God that my dad has served in for a very long time, and that I have been entering into, dissecting and as I've been coming into the understanding some of the, like, spiritual mechanics, is a phrase I use, around some of these things. And so really we work with people of conviction where God has put a message on their heart, and we help them get that message out by the most effective means possible.

Richard Ross: The way this business started, it was through the news media, was the primary way that it was done. And today, that avenue is still effective, but it is one... media is the plural of medium, and so the news media is one of the mediums that a message can travel. But of course, with the emergence of all these other communications channels, there are so many ways, and oftentimes you have to hit multiple at once in order for the message to be most effective.

Richard Ross: But it really starts at the calling, the message that God has put on our heart. When God speaks to us, he speaks to us rather simply, but it is profound and it is deep and it is rippling what he can say. And so finding that, that essence of the simple truth that can then scale out to the fullness of the execution, that's kinda where we start with folks, and the common denominator is a call and a message that's been put on people's heart.

Jim: Love that.

Martha: And you said earlier, Larry, you were talking about lifting up the, the other people, and that's really very much the heart of iWork4Him. God told us from the beginning, "Lift up what I am doing in other people's lives so that people can hear it and be inspired or challenged or encouraged in some way of the story that God wrote in them can be" - it's not gonna look exactly the same for you, but it can be a challenge or an encouragement to whoever is listening.

Martha: So can you give us a practical takeaway, larry, I'll address this to you, for any leaders that are listening that might have something that they're trying to communicate about their organization, is it actually getting to the being translated appropriately for the intended audience? Like, how can you give them a tip with that?

Larry Ross: One of the things I think people need to understand is public relations is not about manufacturing an image. Maybe in Hollywood it is. But we have always - We never manufacture an image for anybody. Rather, we project an identity that already exists.

Larry Ross: And so as I mentioned, the folks that we've worked with, authenticity was a common denominator. Secondly, when we start working with a new organization, we often find it helpful to ask three questions. First of all, who are you? What do you do? Your organization. That's easy. Secondly, how are you perceived? And it may be that they're a well-kept secret. Nobody knows about 'em at all.

Jim: Yeah.

Larry Ross: And then, but the third is the difference between who you are and how you're perceived is the communication gap that needs to be filled, and that needs to be done by telling your story. The power of story is a big part of what we're about, is helping these individuals and organizations tell their story in a way that will resonate with with various audiences.

Jim: What's your, what's the one, this best kept secret, now either, either of the two of you can answer this question, that you guys uncovered, that somebody came to you and said, "Here's what God's laid on my heart"? And you're like, "I have not heard of you. I have no idea who you are." And when you released it to the general public, it exploded because it was a secret that shouldn't have been a secret, that God used you guys as publicists, as, as media people to get that message out there, and all of a sudden it resonated with millions.

Richard Ross: I'm gonna kick that to the legend.

Jim: Okay.

Larry Ross: I'll just give you one. Yes, we've represented Dr. Billy Graham for many years. He was already well established in his ministry and it was just a privilege to be able to help to continue to extend his ministry out beyond the crusades, out through the media. But we'd worked with many... actually in 33 years since we started the firm, 3,100 different clients, individuals, organizations, some retainers, ongoing basis, some projects, some authors, hourly whatever.

Larry Ross: But I remember we, in 1995, Bishop T-... Or maybe it was '96, Bishop TD Jakes moved to Dallas from Charleston, West Virginia. Nobody ever heard of him except in West Virginia. I had heard him preach once. I knew he was a phenomenal preacher, probably one of the most incredible preachers I'd ever heard. And, so he came and asked us to help him and I remember pitching him at first. I pitched him to Larry King. Remember Larry King on CNN?

Larry Ross: And I had talked to the producer, I said, "Listen. We've given you a lot of guests; we've never given you a bad guest. Please take a flyer. Trust me your going to be glad you did." So it went, that first interview was "bishop who?" to, at the end of the hour, Larry King turned to his producer and said , "Who was that guy let's get him back on?"So -

Martha: Mmmh

Larry Ross: It's a matter of being able to use relational capital to introduce them to people we have worked with before but at the end of the day its the anointing is on these individuals that God uses to take it to the next level.

Jim: I like that! TD Jakes was unknown, there you go .

Jim: All right, lets focus on transition now as we closeout todays show, because thats the big deal here. Were going form A Larry Ross & Associates to &Associates. You are transitioning to Richard. How long did it take in your heart before you knew that Richard was the one you wanted to hand the mantel to?

Larry Ross: It was, it was obvious, as Richard described that conversation, it was not something that was on his bingo card, not something that we had even thought of. I knew that for us to transition to next generation leadership, not speaking as in the family, but the next, to move from a founder led to a vision directed movement forward, it would have to be someone of like mind and faith. I was getting many offers to buy the business, but a venture capital firm couldn't service clients in the manner they expected.

Martha: Right.

Larry Ross: And so it was that conversation was this obvious the Lord's hand on Richard's life, and it really was as if He had been preparing him for such a time as this. He had, like Moses out in the wilderness tending sheep, he was a creative director and he was getting a lot of experience. But as - the same thing happened to me - unfulfilled in this... What he was doing, because his heart really was to serve the King and extend the Kingdom of God.

Larry Ross: And so it was just, it was just immediately obvious, even though it was hiding out in plain sight for a long time.

Jim: Hiding out in plain sight for a long time. Richard did you realize you were hiding out in plain sight for a long time?

Richard Ross: You can't see it with me sitting down, but at six foot nine, that's a little bit hard to hide. .

Martha: Wow!

Richard Ross: Doesn't translate on Zoom that much. Yeah. I, after what he said and your last question, when I was in just, the marketplace and working on the brand, I also have a theater background. That's what I studied in school, and I applied a lot of that to my brand work. I really treated brands like characters.

Richard Ross: And- when you are operating within a character, you find what is true about that character, you stick to it, and if you veer from that, the audience can feel it, and it's not appealing. It just, it throws off the production, it throws off the investment. And so I really learned how to do that within brands and define what's true and stick to it. And when you can stick to that truth that's really underneath. It's in that true maintaining its truthfulness. It comes out to where everything becomes imbued with it, and it is felt by the viewer and by the participant.

Richard Ross: I think what's really cool about coming into having all of my work be unto the Lord, it's that sort of truth is not arbitrary and just like wafting off of my own who knows where I used to go to draw upon finding that truth. But now when we work, like we say, when we work with people of conviction, we work to understand, what has God told you?

Richard Ross: And when you find that, you feel it too. And then we really work to help that truth maintain as it scales. That is, to me, to your question earlier, what I have seen be the quote "secret" of people resonating with a lot of folks because a lot of people will do what they feel they should do, like off of what they observe otherwise and they feel, "well it feels like we have to go about it this way." But that's not how God works.

Richard Ross: And when you operate within His frequency, if that's to be used, I feel like I, when you tune to what He's saying and you maintain that tuning, it is ... It resounds and it resonates. And so I love doing that with folks, is helping them find what is true about their organization to where every single touchpoint... 'cause you gotta be pretty diversified today. It's, you gotta have your website have an expression of that truth, your Instagram, your YouTube, your wherever else you go, your podcast.

Richard Ross: And whenever you can have all those things work together, and where the base is understood, and it's blossoming outward like it can, I think that's really when it can resonate and explode.

Jim: What I love about the creativity of &Associates is you went retro on your website. You totally went retro on the website. Just so you know, I noticed it. 'Cause I saw websites when they first come out and I'm like, "Oh, we went retro on the website." I didn't know that was a retro thing.

Martha: People have to go check it out. We'll keep it in the show notes. I think Larry wanted to say something.

Jim: Yeah, go ahead Larry.

Larry Ross: If I could say what Richard just described, we all - our generation remembers the film Chariots of Fire. And Eric Liddell would say- ..."when I run, I feel God's pleasure," as he won the Olympics in 1930- 34.

Larry Ross: And I believe watching Richard is the same way. He's, what he's just described, it's a, is a wonder to behold as I've seen him break down a well known Christian organization to the core of who they are and build it back up again, and then tell that story in a myriad of ways across the various platforms available to them.

Larry Ross: And I think in the context - I know we're wrapping up - if I could just put it in the context of your wheelhouse in iWork4Him, I think that Richard and I and all of our colleagues, agency colleagues, we're not Christian PR marketers. We're professional communications practitioners whose faith informs our work.

Larry Ross: And for anyone in the workplace, if you are a Christian shoemaker, that doesn't mean you put little crosses on the side of your shoes. You can, but it doesn't mean you have to. It means you do the best craftsmanship possible, and your craftsmanship, your attention to detail, your pride in your work, that is your witness, and that's what people notice.

Larry Ross: They notice there's just something different about you or the way you approach your work. And I think the world is watching, and if I could just add this one thing, put it in the communications context. Years ago, I read a back page essay of Time magazine. Roger Rosenblatt, Jim, you're a media aficionado, you may remember him, one of my favorite columnists. He's passed away now.

Larry Ross: But I'll read two paragraphs from his back page essay of Time that said What Matters Most. He said, "journalists put the question in practical terms: What should we lead with? The rest of the population asks more generally, 'What matters most?'

Larry Ross: They come to the same puzzle, survey events in a given period of time, and try to come up with the single moment, the headline by which the world may be characterized, stopped in its spin. What should we lead with? What matters most? What we confront in making such choices is not the events alone, but ourselves, and it's ourselves we're not able to place in order. The question is not what the press decrees as this week's news. The question is us. What should we lead with? What matters most?"

Larry Ross: And I think for any of us, whatever your profession, a believer in the workplace, what matters most is how your character, how you treat others, and extend God's love to your colleagues and your customers. And so that's really our witness, and the work that we're called to do is just a vehicle to express that anywhere God has called us to serve.

Martha: Amen.

Jim: I love that. I love that. Richard, as you transition with dad over the next several years, I don't know what it looks like, and we're out of time, so we'll have to cover that on another show. But there's gonna be some, "This is the way Dad's always done it," and we're not necessarily gonna do it that way any longer because the world is a changing place.

Jim: What is the one thing you look forward to most as you take the reins all alone eventually with & Associates and move forward?

Richard Ross: As I said earlier, it's just evident that the hand of God has been on my father throughout this entire venture. And you look at these great leaders in scripture that have such a unique relationship with God and then that relationship gets passed on in sort of some of the work that they're involved with God if it could be said like that. And so I look forward to experiencing that as, as it transpires.

Richard Ross: I don't exactly know what that's gonna look like, but it's just so evident in scripture of Moses to Joshua, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We are in a familial succession thing. This is covered in scripture. And so there is... and there's a unique thing that transpires that I feel like I am in the midst of, and its a very unique thing to be apart of, and it is a real spiritual dynamic that is at play.

Richard Ross: And it's really lovely to be able to have different aspects of scripture come forward in different ways that I wouldn't have been reading certain things unless I was in this position. And at least I've got scriptures to reference that some of these folks in scripture didn't. So that's helpful.

Martha: Keep that as your guide.

Richard Ross: Yes.

Jim: Richard and Larry, we're so grateful for you guys sharing your story, for sharing &Associates, the old, the former A. Larry Ross & associates where you guys really, as you said, really taking that conviction that somebody has, that God's laid on peoples hearts and helping them give a voice to it, give an effective voice to it, get that message out there.

Jim: We can't wait to see what the next 10 years looks like, Richard, as we partner together with guests and people that you guys are helping publish and make famous. But Richard and Larry; Larry thanks for laying the groundwork, thanks for being such a great stalwart or faith. And Richard, we're just so grateful that you're taking over, and thank you both for being on iWork4Him today to share a little bit of your story.

Larry Ross: Thank you. I just wanna thank you both for your faithfulness and what God's called you to do. Reminds me of the story in John 5, the Pool of Bethsaida or Bethesda whichever way you, which Bible you have. You remember the story?

Jim: Sure.

Larry Ross: Yeah. It's the saddest story in the bible by the way. If you remember the parapolitic is by the pool for 38 years. The Bible doesn't tell us he has the best suntan in the New Testament by the way from. lying for 38 years. But when he finally gets healed, what happens? He takes off. He runs away. He doesn't stick around and help others who needed help like he did for 38 years.

Larry Ross: So Jim I know you're been around this business a long time. I wanna thank you both for hanging around by the pool. And when COVID shut you down and knocked you off radio, you pivoted and you went to podcasting, and you've remained faithful. And God's honoring your faithfulness, and we're just grateful to be a part of that today.

Jim: Richard and Larry Ross, thank you so much. You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers and our workplace, it's our mission field. But ultimately, iWork4Him.