9/30/26 - 2166: Choosing to Live on Purpose

Jim: Here's the story. A young man graduates from college as an attorney with $300,000 in debt. Overwhelmed and depressed, he goes to work to start the daily grind. How will he ever dig out? How does the story end? Not like you think.

Jim: Austin Henderson got good advice. Start your day with quiet time with God. Then make a plan to get out of debt. Make a life plan with goals. Make a plan to stay healthy physically, mentally, and spiritually. Austin Henderson even had a plan for finding the right woman to marry.

Jim: 13 years later, Austin and Ally Henderson are well on their way to financial freedom while experiencing vibrancy in their marriage, excitement in their work, and loving every minute with their three children. What's their secret? They have both chosen to live on purpose, and they've written a book about their journey.

Jim: Austin Henderson is a partner at a law firm, but he has chosen to live a life that does not epitomize the life of the attorneys that we saw on the TV drama Suits. Austin and Ally Henderson are here today to share their story of living out their faith in every area of their life as they choose to live on purpose while slowing down to focus on faith, family, and mission.

Jim: Austin and Ally Henderson, welcome to iWork4Him.

Ally Henderson: Thank you.

Austin Henderson: Thanks so much for having us.

Jim: Oh, we're excited to have you guys here. We always do this with every first-time guest on the show. Austin and Ally, where did your faith in Jesus intersect in your lives? Ally, tell us about how did you become a Jesus follower?

Ally Henderson: Yeah, I thank you. I grew up in the church. But, as I was a teenager, I was really trying my best to find some independence and freedom from my parents and really from anything that kind of had a lot of rules. So I stepped away from it, I stepped away from the church, and I stepped away from God's calling for me, and I thought that, that was something that he was putting rules on my life.

Ally Henderson: He wasn't, and he was really patient with me over time kinda calling me back to him. And it's been a back-and-forth kind of journey in my early 20s of me looking for freedom and independence versus him saying "That's not - your way is not my way." But in the end I had a, a lot of different people kinda speak into my life.

Ally Henderson: And a girl in high school invited me to a camping trip that was part of Young Life. And so I went on that, and I remember one night I couldn't sleep, and I kinda went out into the large open space that up in the Colorado mountains, and I just laid back, and I was looking at the stars, and I felt him tell me that, "A life with me is not more rules. It's not rigid. It's adventure."

Ally Henderson: And I believed him, and so that was the start of a really a turning point. And so there was some more me running away from him and him calling me back. But in the end, His way is so much better and has led to such a more exciting and steadfast good life instead of being up and down and tumultuous, and my bad choices leading me down very painful experiences.

Ally Henderson: So now I'm like, "Okay, God, if you tell me to do something, I'm gonna do my darn best to do it because I don't wanna do it my way." Yeah. "I'm done doing it my way."

Jim: I get it.

Martha: Oh, thank you for sharing that. And I appreciate your transparency. So Austin, how about you? How did you become a follower of Jesus?

Austin Henderson: Yeah, so I was raised in the Presbyterian Church. And growing up it was more of checking the boxes. We went to church on Sundays. We went to youth group. But I felt like I... Looking back, I didn't have that healthy, holy fear. And what really, what really, got me down on my knees to surrender myself to Him was when I graduated from college and law school with that student loan debt.

Austin Henderson: And I'd lived my cookie cutter life, once I graduate, life will just take care of itself. Check the boxes and everything's gonna be hunky-dory. And so in 2014, when I'm drowning in that student loan debt, really not liking practicing law when I first started as a brand new associate, I just felt like I had nowhere else to go.

Austin Henderson: And that I got down on my knees and I surrendered myself to Him and I said, "Lord, I don't know what to do right now." Up until that point I felt like I could just figure things out on my own, and that really required me to surrender myself to Him, "Lord, show me your way." And I really believe He did that.

Austin Henderson: And that was a, a big turning point for me in 2014, and that's when I got baptized as an adult. And Allie and I met a few years later. So that, th- that was really the turning point for me in 2014, and which got me on this path of-

Jim: Sure ...

Austin Henderson: having these quiet mornings and writing the book.

Jim: So why did you choose to be an attorney?

Austin Henderson: Yeah, it's a great question. To be honest with you, my dad is a big hero of mine, and he's a, he's an attorney still practicing in the Sacramento area. And growing up, he has his own small private practice. It's just him. And if people, our friends, family, the community, our church, if people had a legal question, needed legal support, they would go to my dad, and I thought that was really neat.

Austin Henderson: He was, he is a leader in the community, so that really inspired me to go into law. And also the less exciting point of that is that it was June 2009, and jobs weren't- overflowing then.

Martha: So why not, right?

Jim: Things were a little tough in 2009. By June of 2009, they were really tough.

Austin Henderson: Yeah. Might as well go back for three more years of school and, 150,000 more dollars of student loans.

Jim: Why not?

Martha: Okay, so I want to talk about that for a minute, because you said something earlier that makes me think that in law school they didn't, you didn't talk about this, this, growing debt that probably all of the students had.

Martha: I'm guessing that maybe they just let you all decide that it was gonna just work itself out, or I'm not sure, but I'm surprised that you get to the end and there's probably so many of you that are in debt, and people that, maybe even smaller debt, like people that just go to, you know, don't get that expensive of a degree, but they still owe money.

Martha: So tell us about the epiphany you had when you get to the end of school and you're like, "Oh, my word, I have a law degree, but I also have a ton of debt." What was that like for you?

Austin Henderson: Absolutely. Yeah. And in my experience, academia teaches you how, how to think and write essays and solve math problems, but it didn't, in my experience, it didn't teach me how to take ownership of my life. And so much of that is your finances.

Austin Henderson: And Dave Ramsey talks about this a lot, especially with student loans and the way things are, the last 15, 20 years especially, is that people just get accustomed to it. That student loan debt is their pet, as, as Dave Ramsey calls it. So it's just normal.

Austin Henderson: And what I found in listening to, to Dave Ramsey and to be honest with you, what, the epiphany was when I see, when I'm done with deferment - 'cause I was, my loans were deferred through college and law school.

Martha: Sure.

Austin Henderson: Now it's time to make that first payment, and it's $3,500 a month.

Martha: Ah.

Austin Henderson: Making not a fantastic salary, in 2000, in January 2014. Oh, I've got this, basically a mortgage payment without a house. How am I gonna pay this off? And so I have nowhere else to... I say, "What, where am I? What's the plan?" I didn't have a financial plan. And that's when a good friend of mine introduced me to Dave Ramsey, and I got dialed in with that.

Austin Henderson: But I think especially with millennials, our generation, people are just so used to just having that student loan just like a car payment or their mortgage, and there's a, there are other ways to go to school.

Jim: Let's talk about - maybe you got some ideas to share right now. If you've got a law degree, is there a way to get a law degree without going $300,000 in debt?

Austin Henderson: Absolutely. It, and it's not - it's simple, but it's not easy, right? And it's to, it's to spend a ton of time applying for grants, scholarships, everything you possibly can to get law school paid for. And it's not, and I don't have a great answer for that, to be honest with you, because it is very expensive.

Austin Henderson: But from what I've heard in, in listening to folks like Dave Ramsey and their strategy, is just to apply for as many grants and scholarships as possible. And there's so many out there that people just aren't aware of.

Martha: Sure. And I would also say it's very dangerous living in that deferred time period because you live as though you have money because you don't have that payment, but you've got that debt.

Martha: Absolutely. I know so many kids that we've been around over the years that are, they're living like they've got a huge income, and it's just because they have not yet had to start paying on that debt. And I'll tell you what, we were newlyweds living in HUD housing, going to college, eating macaroni and cheese, and drinking Kool-Aid. Those were the good old days.

Jim: It was Sugar Free Kool-Aid, too. It was just terrible.

Martha: It's 'cause we got it for 10 cents a pack or whatever, but it was like, but I know that how easy it is today for people to live a lifestyle that they can't afford. And that just piles on top of it. So I know there's so much more we want to get into this conversation.

Jim: There, there is. And Ally, I wanna go to you. Okay, Austin's got this plan on meeting the woman of his dreams, and he's got this big, long laundry list of things he's looking for. You come into Austin's getting out of debt plan and trying to live on purpose journey about halfway through. How was God writing your story to intersect with, to intersect with Austin's?

Ally Henderson: Yeah. It was back to the obedience, I think, for me of, I had been choosing relationships that were not not so great and living in a way that was not necessarily always consistent with what I wanted for my life. And God had been working on me the last few years before I met Austin. I joined a small group, and after the 10 weeks were up, my leader actually asked me to start leading the group, and she was gonna step away and start a new group.

Ally Henderson: And so I had said yes to that, and for me, that was another, another one of those turning points of obedience. And so as I was going through that and I did another Dave Ramsey course. I did, I think, two before we met him, just to get my mind and my finances right and things like that. So I had been squirreling away 25% of my income for my retirement, and I was, like, debt-free and things like that. And I met him, and he, was really upfront about it up, early in our dating.

Jim: He's like, "You sure you wanna date me?" "I got a bank load of debt."

Austin Henderson: And so Ally, she was already dialed in generally with her finances. She was smart. She didn't borrow a bunch of money to go to school, so she had that dialed in, and so it was about cleaning up my mess. And luckily, I had already-

Ally Henderson: He had already had a plan. He was living in a 300 square foot studio apartment. And, we ate a lot of ground turkey and sweet potatoes, like made a lot of food. And it was great. Honestly it was refreshing for me, and I feel like God...

Ally Henderson: one of the things that drew me to him was he was so intentional about what he was doing. Even when we were early in our dating I always knew where I stood with him. He knew what he was doing with his finances and with his life and he had God first. So for me, that was the first time I had experienced that in a relationship of, wow, I'm not the center focus of what's happening here.

Ally Henderson: Your most, most important thing is being aligned with God, and that was just so freeing and refreshing. And it's just made it more of a partnership as opposed to one person trying to muscle their way through it.

Martha: It's interesting because in the world's eyes, a lot of people would be very confused by that. Wait a second. What? You're seeing him make God a priority. The world doesn't understand that. And yet, that drew you in, and that's just the beautiful nature of God. And I just appreciate you pointing that out because the world, and many people, even as believers, it's hard to imagine, like that's gonna draw you in closer. So thanks for sharing that.

Jim: Austin, you write in your book, Live on Purpose, a pretty extensive list of what you're looking for in a spouse. Ally, I'm curious, did you have a similar list? How did you do checking off the desires of your heart in a future spouse?

Ally Henderson: I didn't have a list like that. I'm a big journaler. That's my main way of kinda, it's like my prayer. I feel like I'm journaling to God, and I'm, that's how I speak with him. But I didn't have a big list like that. For me, it was more of feeling and knowing that God has to be - that was my list. God has to be number one.

Ally Henderson: And then the attraction, like the, the lifestyle choices, like all of those things. I know what I like. I wasn't... I was very picky, so I wasn't in a rush or anything. But it was just clear. It was like, I remember my pastor, when I was a kid, just hearing this one sermon, and he told a story about a woman who was going down the aisle, and she couldn't say yes because she felt he wasn't aligned with God.

Ally Henderson: And that really stuck with me all through my kind of formative dating years. And so I was always pictured, can I picture myself saying yes to this person and feeling like it's right by God or just right by us? And I could with him, and so I was like, "Okay that, that is a first."

Jim: All right. But Austin, you did a... your list. You had a list. As you write about in your book. You're, I mean- Poor Ally. It's published for the world to see ... you didn't put, but you didn't put your list, you didn't put the complete list in the book. I was a little disappointed, actually. But it could've been a lot of fun. In your list, how many of those checkpoints did Ally check off for you?

Austin Henderson: Oh, she-

Ally Henderson: All of them ...

Austin Henderson: she checked off all, and then some. No, for me - similar story, I had dated people in the past where I felt like I was compromising my, what I was looking for. I was compromising what I knew to be true, and that is God first and everything is - the, the foundation is God. And so by the time I was in my 30s, 'cause we met when I was 33.

Austin Henderson: So by the time I'm in my 30s, it's like I'm no longer looking for that person that is just physically attractive. I'm going out of my way to find my future wife. And so it was like unapologetically, this is what I'm looking for. God first, and then similar to what Ally was talking about the attraction. Someone who took care of themselves physically and yeah. So it was very easy for me to unapologetically make that list knowing that I was intentionally seeking out my future wife.

Jim: I love that. And it's been, how many years you been married already now?

Austin Henderson: Five years.

Jim: You should've let... that's good. Ally, you were gonna interrupt and it's always good- ... let the guy always be on the hook.

Martha: Make sure they're confident in that answer.

Jim: That's right. That's right.

Austin Henderson: June 12th, 2021.

Jim: Nice. Awesome. Good, I was gonna ask that next just to really put you on the spot.

Martha: Okay, so let's switch just a little bit to life today. Austin, you work from home as a lawyer, which in and of itself, a lot of people might not even imagine that's possible. So how are you guys, what are you doing to protect your home life, your family life from the work that is happening right there in the home, and keeping it all... I hate to use the word balance because we know it's not ever a perfect balance. There are different needs at different times. But what are you doing to just protect all that God has shown you to be so purposeful about?

Austin Henderson: You wanna take that one?

Ally Henderson: Oh, go ahead.

Jim: No, you go. No, you go. No, you- No, you go. It's okay, you go.

Austin Henderson: It's to honor work at work and family time at family time. So we're-

Jim: But you're an attorney. That, I've- ... we've all watched TV shows with attorneys. They have no life. And I'm sure Suits is like a documentary. Actually, I'm sure it is, 'cause I've known attorneys that work in attorney offices like that. But n- I've never heard an attorney go " there's family time and there's work time." They're just, it's always work, and then sometimes they visit their families on weekends.

Austin Henderson: Absolutely, yeah. That, and that's the culture, right? But ultimately, in my experience, if you're taking care of yourself, you're getting enough sleep, you're exercising regularly, and you're prioritizing your faith and your family, ultimately you're a better worker. You're more productive, you have that sense of purpose, and you feel good.

Austin Henderson: You're your best self at work. And so for me, it's to set those healthy boundaries where I'm in this office from 8:30 to 5:30 PM, and once it's 5:30 PM, Austin's on the clock. He's on- He's on toddler duty. And generally Ally will be making dinner, and I will be entertaining the kids. We'll be playing hide and go seek right at 5:30.

Austin Henderson: Yeah, I've had conversations at work where, "Hey, setting these healthy boundaries." But generally people have been very receptive to it. "Hey Austin, when are you available?" And I just tell them I'm not available after 5:30. Of course, things come up, right? There's a, a tight deadline there's a deposition, or if I have trial in California, which happens then, It's not necessarily a work/life balance, it's work/life balancing.

Austin Henderson: So sometimes it's going to, sometimes the scale's gonna tilt this way, and then you just need to reach that equilibrium, reach that balance. But ultimately, as long as you are confident in setting those healthy boundaries at work, people have been very receptive to it. But the important thing is that you're taking responsibility. So there are situations where you have to go back to your computer after the kids go down. That happens, once a week I would say or sometimes more than that, depending on the season.

Martha: Yeah.

Jim: Ally's keeping track. It's on the refrigerator.

Jim: So talk about the intentionality, how you guys start your day. You have little ones, so we know little ones wake up whenever they want to, but most of the time it's early. And before kids, Austin, you write in your book how you're getting up 4, 5:00 in the morning, and you're spending an hour with the Lord, and it's uninterrupted, and you get some exercise time, and then blah, you're on on.

Jim: And then you mention, "And then we had children." And it wasn't as easy to get that done because the kids wake up, and when they wake up, they're awake, so how are you guys still getting that intentional peace time with God with a horde of little children?

Austin Henderson: Absolutely. It's much more strategic, and I write this in the book, in that stillness and your quiet time is not always actual stillness. That stillness is a state of mind, right? And yeah, my first five years of doing this, regimented quiet time for an hour and a half before work. And now, if I can squeak in 15, 20 minutes before the toddlers start saying, "Daddy," "Change my diaper," that's a win.

Austin Henderson: So really it's take what you can get. Lately for me, with three children now it's about 15, 20 minutes. Enough for me to read my devotional, read whatever verses are in that devotional, and then take care of the toddlers, change diapers. We're currently potty training, so each of them make the attempt to use the potty.

Austin Henderson: Ally will take them to school, and then I'll squeak in another 30 minutes of reading before I start work. It's evolving. So the, the important point to me is to have a plan for that morning and to let it evolve. Don't beat yourself up if it's not perfect every, every day.

Martha: Speaking of plans, it seems like you guys are very good planners, and you've made a lot of plans in different areas of your life. Is there any area where you're like yeah, we don't have a plan in that area yet?"

Ally Henderson: I don't know.

Austin Henderson: I would say going back to the, we're eight months into having three kids. And so that is, unchartered territory for us still. We just got back, excuse me, from a nine-day trip across the great state of pure Michigan with three kids four and under. And yeah, we're very much still navigating that.

Ally Henderson: And I would say one area that I'm still, like I'm spending a lot of my time and thinking about a lot is their schooling. You know- ... they're all at the age about to start school and we're looking at public school, we're looking at potentially homeschooling.

Ally Henderson: So that's definitely an area where there's not a plan in place yet, which gives me a little bit of nerves, but I know the answer will come, and we're praying about it, and talking to family about it, and people that have done all the different things.

Austin Henderson: That's a great point. And we were both in public school from kindergarten to 12th grade, and viewing, like seeing what some of these public schools are teaching kids, it just, as a dad, it's like making me think more of whether we're gonna homeschool, private school. So just wrestling with that is uncharted.

Jim: Or you could run for governor, because your state could use a good governor, in the great state of pure Michigan, as you said, I'm thinking that you could run for governor and maybe helps those public schools out a little bit.

Martha: But I think the point is that, we know that future things are coming in life, and being sure to look ahead- it can be so easy to be busy, especially with three little ones, that you all of a sudden, you're like, "Oh, we never thought about the fact that someday they're gonna be 18. What is that gonna look like?" "And what is that plan?" And I've talked to so many people over the years, they're like, "We didn't make, we never talked about the future, like what that would look like."

Martha: And so I think it's just an encouragement to people to be like, "Okay, don't think that you have to have every answer, but be sure to be asking God, what is this stage of life? What do you want it to look like? How do we steward it?" Because we're not just stewarding our money, we're stewarding our time, our energy, our family, all of that. And I can't imagine how many times we've talked to people, it's all of a sudden they're like we didn't ever talk about what was gonna happen after high school," or when the, the nest is empty and all of that. So it's good to think about the future and pray about it.

Jim: When are you guys getting time to talk, Ally? When do you actually get time to talk with Austin?

Ally Henderson: We, I would say a couple different areas. One is we do weekly date nights. So we have a a standing, babysitter who comes, and the kids love her, and she comes once a week, and we do a date night, so we get to talk then.

Ally Henderson: We also do a annual, like, goal-setting retreat is what we call it. It's just a, it's supposed to be one day, and you go through all of it, but it's hard to get a whole day, so we break it up over date nights a lot of times. In the early part of the year. But we go through the 10-year plan, five-year plan, and then what do we need to do this year to get to that.

Ally Henderson: And it's funny looking back, we see things change. We thought we would be doing real estate investing and things like that, and once we had the kids, the time that it takes to do that, we don't - things change, but we're talking about that and deciding to make those changes so that we're on the same page and really make that plan.

Ally Henderson: So it's not so rigid, but it is there, and it's working towards something, and it's being intentional about it. And inviting God, not inviting God. God's right there with us. It's, he's part of that plan of, okay, is this what God wants us to do? Or where does he want us to grow or change or, invite other people?

Jim: So your planning time also includes prayer time?

Ally Henderson: My prayer time and his prayer time is - we pray every night together. But my personal prayer time with the journaling and that, that's for me, that's not in the morning. It's at nighttime before I go to bed. I read the Bible and I pray. And I don't have ... In the morning, I'm getting up and I'm going to the gym or I'm taking care of the kids. It's one of, it's ... that's not my personal quiet time. That's his personal quiet time.

Jim: Got it.

Jim: Austin, through all of this, you had time to write your book, Live on Purpose. If you've got a copy in your studio, 'cause I forgot to grab my copy before we came into the studio... it released this year. I'm trying to figure out in all of this, you got a copy that you can show the audience on, the YouTube audience? All right. That'd be great.

Martha: You're allowed to get up.

Jim: Yeah, you're allowed to get up. That's all right. I'm not allowed to get up, but you're

Martha: allowed to get up.

Martha: Just don't leave the room. Go get a drink or anything. No.

Jim: That's good. All right. As we're talking with Austin and Allie about the ... hold it up a little higher so everybody on YouTube can see it. Live on Purpose is the book that Austin released, and I'm trying to figure out how in the world, how on God's green earth did you have time to write a book?

Jim: You're working eight, nine hours a day as an attorney. You got three kids. You got a wife that you're spending time planning with every day. You got date night. How did you have time to write this book? What was it about this book that said, "I have to do this even if it's going to kill me"?

Austin Henderson: Yeah. After experiencing that transition in 2014 and spending this, this quiet time, I really felt the nudge from God to write this book.

Austin Henderson: And I was just, my thought was if I experienced this anxiety when I first started in my career and I really had just such a, a positive transformation that other people are going through, must be going through a similar thing, especially when they start out in their career.

Austin Henderson: So for me, it was a no-brainer. God was directing me to write this book, and it was really just one day at a time. I read Stephen King's On Writing and Stephen King's written, hundreds of books. But ultimately it was, at least 250 words a day. So before I start work I just write 250 words every morning.

Austin Henderson: And that's the minimum, so sometimes you'll go over that obviously. But it was just, yeah, one, one little bite at a time.

Ally Henderson: Took a couple, couple years.

Austin Henderson: And it took, yeah, it took a couple years. And the manuscript changed, so many times, especially when we had our first kid and then our second kid. And so-

Jim: You had your first kid, you thought you had it all figured out ...

Austin Henderson: the manuscript changed quite a bit as I was writing it.

Jim: Yeah, everybody that has their first kid thinks, "We got this. This is pretty good. Let's have number two." The first one's usually a little mellower. Usually that's what God does in order to suck us into his world to reproducing more children. Then he gives us child number two and we're like, "What were we thinking?" And then you go, and obviously for you guys it wasn't, two wasn't enough. You said, "Let's have number three." Now number three's gonna be that one...

Jim: Wow. 'Cause it's an exponential function when you have number three. It's not a doubling, it goes lots more. All right, you guys, a lot of your story is this getting to financial freedom, no longer letting debt rule your life. When you achieve, the two of you achieve financial freedom, the ability to not be burdened by any debt of any type, which dictates how you spend your days, because you have to spend your days making money 'cause you have debt in order to serve, what do you think God's got planned for you then, Austin?

Austin Henderson: Yeah. So we're debt-free except for the mortgage, and so now the, the focus is gonna be on the mortgage. Ultimately, I wanna be more available to friends and family. So just to have that time flexibility. If friends need help, you're there for them. If your family members, if they need you, you're there.

Austin Henderson: You're not necessarily tied down to a job. But also to be more present with the kids, to be involved in their activities. And we haven't talked about this at length yet, 'cause the kids aren't in activities yet, but, if we have that time flexibility to be a coach for, for the kids and their sports just to be present.

Austin Henderson: And also, and we wrote about it in the book, but to get, to take the kids on missions trips, to travel, to have that flexibility.

Martha: Yeah. Is there anything, Ally, that you wanna add to that? When you think of your role as a mom and a wife with getting to the other side of the burden of debt, is there anything- that you would add that you see maybe adjusting or changing?

Ally Henderson: Oh, So I was in the workforce for a long time, and I loved it. I enjoyed it. And I had to pivot, or I had to pivot because I wanted to be there for my kids, so I had to make that choice about being home with them.

Ally Henderson: So I am home with the kids now, and went from, like a, a very, like a nice job to, I get no sort of recognition from the little children about what I'm doing all day long. But but I'm there for them, and I'm grateful that, what we've done so far, the planning that we've done, has allowed me to be able to do that, to be there.

Ally Henderson: And I wanna continue being present in their lives, but I also, I know that God will continue to develop me. It was a big transition when I went from work to home because my identity was wrapped up in that, in my work. And I think it's, I'm sure that he'll prune me in that way too, of my identity now has somewhat shifted to being mom.

Ally Henderson: And I know that as they get older and don't need as much from me, that he'll use that opportunity to help me continue to rely on him. So whatever he has planned next, in that stage of our life when we do get to fully financially free, I think the small steps of trying to be obedient in the meantime will position me to be in a place that I can say yes to, and be excited about saying yes to whatever is next.

Ally Henderson: So I don't know exactly what that will be, but...

Jim: that's all right. It's fine. You have an eight-month-old right now. It's okay. You don't need to know-

Martha: You don't need to know ... beyond tomorrow,

Jim: right? And you're potty training. Yeah.

Martha: A couple things I just wanna say. One is that for people that don't know really about Dave Ramsey, we'll put a link in the show notes for people. But the intentionality that you guys have taken on a journey that should last all of your life, because even after you reach what we call financial freedom, no debt, right? You still have to be intentional stewards of everything that God gives you so that you don't end up back there, so that you're making good decisions so that you can do what God has called you to do.

Martha: And the freedom that comes from that is the freedom that's everlasting. I know Jim and - our testimony, and most of our listeners know it, is that God at one point said for us to become debt-free so that if he called us to do something, our money wasn't an excuse for saying no. Nothing worse than saying God, I can't do that because I've been putting my dinners on my credit card for the last 10 years. So I can't go be obedient to what God's telling me to do because of this debt I have to serve."

Martha: And that's truly where a lot of people around us find themselves. So listeners, if you find yourself in a situation like that, Dave Ramsey's financial courses are one opportunity for you to lean in and find out from a biblical perspective what God has to say. Jim and I went through Crown Financial back in 1999, and that was life changing for us because most believers think they know everything there is about money in the Bible, but no, there's a whole lot that God has taught us because we're so ignorant. We're slow learners. We need to hear about it a lot.

Martha: So I just wanted to not rush past that because I think there's a lot of people that right now, today, this interview may be that opportunity for them to say their debt may be 20,000 from nursing school. We don't know what it is, but it's a burden, and it doesn't have to be, and it can keep, it can, that can be holding you back from being obedient to what God has to say.

Jim: So here's what I wanna know. 'Cause you went Dave Ramsey. Minivan or SUV, Allison?

Ally Henderson: I fought it mentally for so long. We have a minivan, and I love it.

Jim: See? I knew it. See, that's the toughest thing. It's this next generation. You got this thing against minivans, but the minivan's the most practical-

Ally Henderson: I know. It's amazing.

Martha: We still drive a minivan.

Jim: We, they're the most practical. They are so awesome to travel in when you get older, by the way. You can fit so much stuff in there, and there's, and they're convenient to get in and out of. We've had minivans since before we had kids.

Martha: That's a, that was a deep question there, Jim.

Jim: I just wanted to see how committed you really were because most people-

Austin Henderson: Well we fought it.

Ally Henderson: A used minivan too.

Martha: Yes. There you go.

Austin Henderson: We fought it. We test drove SUVs. Several SUVs. Said, "This is, we gotta go all in with the minivan." Yeah.

Jim: And you're saving thousands of dollars every year on fuel, and they're cheaper to insure. And they hold their value really well. Okay. But we won't go to them. Okay. All right.

Martha: Yeah ... we know you get excited about it.

Jim: All right, just wanted to see if you're really committed, otherwise, I was gonna call you out live. Okay. All right. As we close out the show, final words of encouragement.

Jim: There's a lot of people out there keeping up with the Joneses. That couple that the guy's driving around his lawnmower in the front of his yard going, "Please, I'm up to my debt, up to my eyeballs. Somebody help me," kind of a thing. I don't know if you've not seen that commercial. That's okay. It's still funny. What's some words of advice that you guys just wanna lay out here for the audience? Austin, you first.

Austin Henderson: No matter how overwhelmed you might feel at your job, with your family with your other activities, Jesus is right there in the room with you. You need... What are you doing to step back and get quiet and listen to him?

Austin Henderson: And I think, we can automatically rush through our day from A to Z, but what are we doing to take a step back, reflect, and listen to God?

Jim: Ally?

Ally Henderson: Backing on that, I think being intentional about what your plan is. It's so easy to just get caught up in laundry, breakfast this, and the next thing you know a couple years have gone by and the trajectory is- is just what's happening to you.

Ally Henderson: But to, to make a plan and once you make the plan, it's actually not that hard to follow it. It's simple things in your day, and I think that really makes a difference. And I think that goes hand-in-hand with being obedient to God. So if he gives you a nudge in something small to do it, because I was always waiting for this big, "You're gonna go save the world," message, and he wants obedience in the little things, and then I think he gives us the next step and the next - here's what's next, and he gives us bite-sized pieces.

Ally Henderson: So just to not get discouraged if it's not sounding very exciting or this or that. Just to do what he asks and to know that it will be an adventure, and it will be better than what you're doing on your own.

Jim: Awesome. Good words. Austin and Allison Henderson, thank you so much for being on iWork4Him today. Appreciate having you guys here.

Austin Henderson: Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Jim: You've been listening to iWork4Him with your hosts, Jim and Martha Brangenberg. We're Christ followers, in our workplace- It's our mission field. But ultimately, iWork4Him.